E6 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

JackRackham

2011-11-06, 08:16 PM

I was looking at E6, and if feels to me like 3/4 BAB classes (Rogue in particular) get screwed. What I mean is, their abilities don't really come together until around level 8, both in terms of using skills in a way that is powerful, in addition to simply being convenient or useful and in terms of actually being competitive in melee. A dual-weilding rogue, for example, doesn't really get effective until BAB gets high enough to hit consistently. Bluff and Diplomacy are more useful than powerful at level 6. Tumble is less reliable at that level (still not bad, but...).

The charger build, on the other hand, is doable by level 6. So, we've got fighters and/or barbarians one-shotting whatever you throw at them while rogues still struggle to make contact...

Am I way off base here? I'm sure the system is workable with some tweaks, but it really seems to favor fighters (casters are still fine, not as UBER as at higher levels, I know), as is.

DeAnno

2011-11-06, 08:30 PM

With magic being... lesser, I imagine the hide/spot wars in particular are rather important, especially if you finagle some way to get Hide In Plain Sight somehow. Is that possible in E6?

Human Paragon 3

2011-11-06, 08:40 PM

0nimaru

2011-11-06, 08:46 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-06, 08:53 PM

With magic being... lesser, I imagine the hide/spot wars in particular are rather important, especially if you finagle some way to get Hide In Plain Sight somehow. Is that possible in E6?

Dark Creature template, +1 LA but in E6 you just have a slightly lower pointbuy instead of being lower level. It also gives Hide +8 and Move Silently +6, and +10 ft. movement, so it's definitely something to consider.

For 3/4 BAB classes in general, I'd probably go for a small size race with a Dex bonus and Weapon Finesse, which does some good things for your chances of hitting. For Rogue I'd be more concerned about UMD getting capped, since that's their most useful ability but there are only so many ways to increase it. Realistically, you're better off going Rogue 2/ Swordsage 4 over Rogue 6. Maybe go Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) 6, use Underfolk from Races of Destiny to get a version of Camouflage that works primarily in rocky terrain, and use the E6 Rogue capstone feat to pick up Hide in Plain Sight. I'd still say you're better off with Dark Creature, if you're going to use the Rogue capstone at all then go Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 6 and get Mind Cripple which is just amazing.

If you want a melee sneak attacker, make a Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) with Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter). Go with a small size race and get Weapon Finesse, TWF, and ITWF, and you can still take Wepaon Focus/Specialization since they're still Fighter levels. With the E6 Fighter capstone feat you can even get Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery, and Improved Critical, and be sure to trade Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). I'd also get the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels and Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), because free bonuses are free.

E6 is mostly about feats and magic items after 6th level. For a melee character, the Speed weapon property is still available as per the DMG errata, as is the Sword of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety). It looks like that's priced as a +1 weapon plus 20,000 gp, so adding Speed to that would cost another 30,000 gp. The above Thug with two of those and max Dex would get six attacks at +23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+18, for 1d4+9+3d6, 17-20/x2, for an average of 132 damage per round at Str 10 without crits.

JackRackham

2011-11-06, 09:12 PM

I think you're right for the most part. Rogues are not the best class to take 6 levels of in e6. However, I don't think it's as bad as you're saying.

Take, for example, a TWF rogue with 18 dex, two-weapon fighting and weapon finesse. His attack bonus is two less than a fighter who also took the same feats, but he gets 3d6 sneak attack dice per hit. That's an average of 11 damage. A fighter who tanks his entire BAB to power attack will only get +6 to damage if he is two-weapon fighting, and +12 to damage if he is two-handing.

Additionally, keep in mind that although the rogue will never get more BAB, he continues to bank wealth and feats, meaning a clever rogue can eventually find ways to sneak more attacks in. Martial Study, Snap Kick, Rapid Shot (with thrown weapons), are a few choices that the rogue can eventually get to help balance things out.

That fighter could have Shock Trooper though....and if those extra attacks won't hit, they don't count for much (see: Monk class). And, @ Onimaru, in general, in relative terms, BAB scales better than AC, so by the mid levels, everyone's hitting anyway and it's all about damage. This is where TWF, sneak attackers (really, just melee characters who don't charge and power attack or trip things with a spike chain) and the like come into their own and where 3/4 BAB characters come into their own. I imagine in this system they would remain behind. That's all I'm saying.

EDIT: Also, multi-classing is less viable, which is more important for rogue-types.

The Boz

2011-11-06, 09:31 PM

This is the first time I've heard of E6. I LOVE it.

As for rogues, keep in mind that you gain feats which help with your attack roll or can even increase your BAB so you qualify for more feats. Heck, there's even a rule that says houserules could find a way to introduce certain class features as feats, so you could have 4d6 Sneak Attack, for example.
UMD limitation? Skill Focus. Skill Beyond Your Years.
Squishy? Toughness. Evasion.
TWF? It's basically as weak as before, so whatever.
I don't think a -2 attack compared to the frontlines is going to kill you.

bigstipidfighte

2011-11-06, 10:23 PM

syryous

2011-11-06, 10:54 PM

Dark Muckdweller, Tiny Monstrous Humanoid (extraplanar)
Rogue 3 / Hit and Run, Sneak Attack Fighter 3

(25pt buy)
STR 4 -3
DEX 17 (+6 racial, +1 Level, +2 Item) = 26 +8
CON 14 +2
INT 11 -
WIS 10 -
CHA 6 -2

HP 39 (3d6 + 3d10 + 12)
AC 23 (+8 Dex, +2 Size, +3 NA)
Speed 30' (Swim 30')
Bab +5
Init +8

FOrt 6
Ref 12
Will 2

Sneak Attack +4d6, Trapfinding, Trapsense +1, Darkvision (60'), Superior low-light vision, Cold resistance

10

Attacks
Squirt: 25', DC 21 Ref or be blinded for 1 round.

Tiny Hand Crossbow +1,
+17 (+5 Bab, +1 Focus, +8 Dex, +1 Magic, +2 Size), 1d2+13 (+4 1/2 Dex, +8 Dex, +1 Magic) + 4d6+6 SA + 8 If

flat footed + Poison
+1 Hit / +1 Damage within 30', Sneak attack up to 60'

Hide 38 (+9 Ranks, +8 Dex, +8 Dark, +8 Size, +5 Item)

1st Point Blank Shot
Flaw Precise Shot
Flaw Craven
3rd Hand Crossbow Focus
6th Crossbow Sniper
6+ Dead Eye

Items
+1 Tiny Hand Crossbow, (2400)
cloak of Elvenkind, (2500)
Gloves of Dex +2, (4000)

4100 gp left

some sort of poison bolts

bigstipidfighte

2011-11-06, 11:06 PM

Congratulations on abusing the E6 LA rules.

MukkTB

2011-11-06, 11:35 PM

E6 looks fun. I find the idea appealing. But then my group dinks around at the lower levels most of the time.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-06, 11:41 PM

Congratulations on abusing the E6 LA rules.

Pixie Warlock.

JackRackham

2011-11-07, 12:42 AM

As I read this thread over, I can't help but think that TWF rouges were never as good at killing things in melee as uberchargers. This is not a problem with E6, just with the general power level of shock trooper.

If anything, I think E6 makes lower-op concepts more playable, since most of the stuff that high-op characters get to make the rest of the party obsolete comes later. Ubercharger might be an exeption, since that build is pretty much done by level 6, but I still don't think the gap is going to close much as characters continue to level, and even if it did, by that point an equally well-optimized tier 1 or 2 will already be capable of making ubercharger/TWF rouge look silly.

I'm looking at you Arcane Thesis: Orb of Fire.

You're right, but I think you misinterpreted my point. A TWF rogue is never AS GOOD in melee as a charger, or a barbarian, or a Warblade, or whatever. Around 9th or 10th level, though, they can be competitive/useful in melee by optimizing their niche (basically one-shotting something scary at the start of combat). This depends on how the campaign is run, since rogues are nearly useless vs undead, oozes and any of the classes with uncanny dodge, but it was something.

I guess some of those feats could make up for it, but it would be, even more than usual, reliant on DM goodwill to an even greater extent since he chooses which feats to allow and disallow on a case-by-case basis and there are no feats, in any books, that increase BAB. I digress.

I'm sure it could be playable, but it would take some intra-group discussion beforehand, where straight melee classes and full casters have next to nothing to worry about (Also, rangers, paladins and other late casters would be worse than usual, I'd think).

EDIT: The spiked chain/tripper build is pretty well finished by level six as well....most good straight-melee builds are doable, really.

bigstipidfighte

2011-11-07, 01:51 AM

To answer the question more directly then: no, i don't think the system screws rouges and similar 3/4 BAB classes.

At similar levels of optimization, they're not going to match a fighter-type in melee. I feel that this is not only OK, it's actually a good thing. Rouges have skills that make them more versatile outside of combat than tanks. In E6, magic doesn't make those skills obsolete, so this is actually important. I'm running an E6 game right now with a Warblade/Crusader, a Swordsage, and a Rouge for party members, and while the rouge can't match the tankiness of the Warblade or the DPS of the Swordsage, he's still an equally useful member of the party.

He does tend to look a little( EDIT: to be honest, a lot) weak when the PCs go up against SA immune enemies, but that's an issue with the class in general, not E6. In fact, since feats are a less scarce resource in this system, he'll probably grab ones to mitigate that eventually.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-07, 01:59 AM

Morph Bark

2011-11-07, 02:38 AM

bigstipidfighte

2011-11-07, 03:47 AM

TroubleBrewing

2011-11-07, 05:49 AM

Martial Study, Snap Kick, Rapid Shot (with thrown weapons), are a few choices that the rogue can eventually get to help balance things out.

Unless I'm missing something, the Rogue never gets Snap Kick because he can't satisfy the +6 BAB requirement. /nitpick

Thiyr

2011-11-07, 05:56 AM

Hand_of_Vecna

2011-11-07, 06:40 AM

I know there's Pazuzu and candle of invocation versions that are earlier, but I think the most well known (beloved) Pun-Pun is 5-6.

Back on topic. I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around the OP's point. Yes, it's true that AC doesn't scale well and becomes a defense only suitable for mooks and tertiary attacks at high levels, but I don't see a huge differce between level 6 and 8. I mean that's +2 to hit unless the average AC is going down that's not going to make a huge difference. Also it's E6 your going to have more feats than you know what to do with meaning that some normally suboptimal feats become tempting. Take Weapon focus, take the animal cohort feat for a permanent flanking buddy, take a feat that doubles the flaking bonus, take martial study and martial stance then get a martial disciplne weapon. Plenty of pluses to hit you wouldn't get on your standard TWF.

Alternatively, maybe it's the lack of two attacks at -5 that you think ruins TWF. Snapkick unfortunately requires +6 BAB so it's out of your reach without a favorable housrule. There are still tons of options for boosting damage. That Martial Stance Island of Blades; pretty much a flanking of yes. Now since your always in a Shadowhand stance take Shadowblade technique Dex to damage in addition to Strength now you can choose between keeping Strength at 10 or having a 12 or 14 for a few extra points of damage before long a +2 enhancement bonus should be dirt cheap so then you can grab an extra point of damage. Craven of course.

A handful of these feats would put your Sneak attack ahead on to hit and damage (compared to that just the primary attack) of a lvl 8 when you reach E6+10feats which is when your supposed to be able to face the same enemies depending on your build you could very well surpass a level 8 TWF by E6+5 feats.

I just feel the need to reiterate that I (and apparently several others) don't consider lvl 8 the tipping point or sweet spot of TWF builds. Swordsage TWF is solid at lvl 3, or even at level 1 with the common houserule of allowing weapon finesse at +0 BAB.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 07:23 AM

While Rogue 6 may be less than ideal, Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw is an incredibly versatile build in E6 getting good HD, solid skill progression, full sneak attack progression, int to damage and 5/6 BAB.

Sneak Attack Thugs, as mentioned before, fill this role pretty well too. They pick up better HD, 1 additional BAB (and an extra attack) but fewer skills.

Both are serviceable rogues. Not to mention, Clerics and Druids are both 3/4 BAB and dominate E6, so the argument that 3/4 BAB classes get screwed doesn't really hold up. PsyWars are also perfectly serviceable classes. Bards? Well they can pick up Inspire Courage +2 with a Capstone feat, plus Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost and a Badge of Valor nets what...a +5 total? So they, and their party, are still singing their way to victory.

Midnight_v

2011-11-07, 08:41 AM

You can theoretically make the king of smack still and he's 3/4 bab. . .

Yora

2011-11-07, 08:47 AM

E6 looks fun. I find the idea appealing. But then my group dinks around at the lower levels most of the time.

The interesting part is the implications for the game setting. There are no clerics and wizards above 6th level, which makes the world work rather differently.

Emmerask

2011-11-07, 08:54 AM

If I remember correctly there is a weapon enchantment that makes the weapon target touch AC with the downside that it does not allow powerattack (ie weapon becomes a light weapon)... which is no downside for rogues since they don´t usually powerattack and get their dmg bonus from precision dmg.

3/4 bab targeting touch is better then full bab targeting full ac in my book.

syryous

2011-11-07, 09:00 AM

This may be a decent place to start for a TWF melee Rogue. It will save you some feats and get you 3 attacks a round.

Variant Kobold Racial Traits

Natural Weapons: Kobolds have two primary claw attacks that deal 1d3 points of slashing damage plus Strength bonus, and a secondary bite attack that deals 1d3 points of piercing damage plus 1/2 Strength bonus. Despite possibly being the weakest reptilian humanoid, kobolds retain a connection to their feral nature.

+13 (4 bab +1 size +1 magic +6 dex +1 focus) with 2 claw attacks, without much work, at level 6 seems okay.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 10:04 AM

I don't see what you're trying to say. At level 6 a full BAB class is 2 BAB ahead, at level 20 they are 5. Technically, the earlier you halt level progression the less you are behind in that sense.

Charges will kill things fast no matter the level. It is their gimmick, and to remain useful in the environment you would need to optimize equally well for some task.

I see little relative difference between 6 and 8 for a rogue. Improved Uncanny, +1d6 SA, no feats, and the same attribute bonus anybody gets. You can say it isn't great, but you seem to be implying that E6 stops just short of a good break point for rogues which I can't see.

Well, many dips are pretty awesome for rogues. Lots of feats use a bab prereq system(as do many PrCs). At 8, a rogue has a full 6/8 BaB, while at 6, they have only 4. The extra two levels is much better. Note that if you're not using fractional BaB, the rogue w 1 level of PrC is royally screwed.

Charger builds really are the most immediately powerful thing in E6. Also, while I enjoy E6, it's not really as great as many make it out to be. It's a variant that's fun, but that has it's own problems that are often overlooked or assumed to be houseruled away.

The Boz

2011-11-07, 10:06 AM

It's a variant that's fun, but that has it's own problems that are often overlooked or assumed to be houseruled away.

Well there is a reason for that assumption. You are playing a houserule system. Houserules are a given.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 10:11 AM

Well there is a reason for that assumption. You are playing a houserule system. Houserules are a given.

Basically this. It's pretty easy to make E6 function as advertised if you're willing to make some very common sense houserules in the game.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 10:12 AM

Was this one character fighting a Balor, or a party of 4 or so? Because I'd be pretty impressed if someone solo'd one of those. Although, come to think of it, does Pun-Pun go infinite at 6? I'm thinking he was a druid 5/MoMF 1 but it's been so long I'm not sure... In any event, Balor is a solid monster, unlike some epic/near-epic critters out there.

It was a party of four, required to all be of different classes, with a number of additional feats.

My group was capable of taking out two-three balors per rounds for a basically arbitrary period of time. Given that I had a wild spread of immunities, a LOT of no buttons, and dealt damage via massive amounts of fire + searing spell, there is very little in terms of monsters they cant shred. They could also deal with basically any other challenge an adventuring party could expect to encounter.

Boz, I mean additional house rules, not listed in the system. For one thing, LA is really abuseable in E6. Acquired tempates are abuseable. Level 4+ spells are accessible in a wild number of ways. The default assumed solution to all problems appears to be "ban it!". However, if you ban everything that's problematic in it...you pretty much aren't playing D&D anymore.

The Boz

2011-11-07, 10:15 AM

However, if you ban everything that's problematic in it...you pretty much aren't playing D&D anymore.

It could also easily be argued that as soon as you play with any houserule, you pretty much aren't playing D&D anymore.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 10:20 AM

Boz, I mean additional house rules, not listed in the system. For one thing, LA is really abuseable in E6. Acquired tempates are abuseable. Level 4+ spells are accessible in a wild number of ways. The default assumed solution to all problems appears to be "ban it!". However, if you ban everything that's problematic in it...you pretty much aren't playing D&D anymore.

Bolded for emphasis. You're not playing D&D. You're playing E6. E6 arguably intends to eliminate the bulk of the problematic aspects of D&D including anything with a power level not normally available to characters of 6th level.

The best way to approach E6, in order to make it work like intended, is to pretend that everything available to characters with a level of 6 or over simply doesn't exist. 4th level spells? Don't exist. Items that require spells with a level of 4+ to make? Don't exist. Quicken Spell requires a spell to use a slot 4 spell levels above your own. Normally, you'd need to be level 9 to Quicken a 1st level spell. Ergo, Quicken Spell couldn't be used by a level 6 character sans mitigation. Ergo, Quicken Spell doesn't exist.

If you play this way, then E6 works pretty much the way it should. If you don't then it plays exactly like regular 3.5 D&D. In which case, why bother playing the variant system called E6 at all?

Morph Bark

2011-11-07, 10:43 AM

It could also easily be argued that as soon as you play with any houserule, you pretty much aren't playing D&D anymore.

Just like Texas Hold 'Em isn't poker.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 10:46 AM

It could also easily be argued that as soon as you play with any houserule, you pretty much aren't playing D&D anymore.

That would be fairly pedantic.

No, consider that you basically have to ban all templates, for starters. That is a ban of notable size and scope. Even something fairly standard such as half dragon is extremely useful. See, when LA just becomes a lower point buy, then any template that grants more overall points is a net win(provided it's in stats you care about). Some templates, like ghost, are just horrifically broken.

Then you have classes like the artificer. Oh look, level 4 spells out of the box. You either need to notably change the class or ban them outright, or deal with the availability of higher level spells. Note that this is far from the only way to gain access to higher level spells, and this needs to be done for all of them.

Early entry to ANYTHING becomes notably powerful. Venerable Dragonwrought kobold? Oh look, epic toughness is now a feat choice.

Also, caster level isn't much of a limitation on creating magic items. So, a skilled item creator can build his way up by gaining access to successively higher CL boosters. This can be used to break many, many other things, but honestly, bog standard CL 10 fireballs and a Belt of Battle is sufficient to end most encounters.

No, you have to do so many fixes of sufficient scope that you are basically rewriting the rules. It's a fun subset, mostly for TO purposes, but it should not be considered at all balanced beyond low op levels.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 10:59 AM

That would be fairly pedantic.

-Optimization-

This is the primary issue here. D&D includes levels of optimization as a subset of its core assumptions. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds are unbalanced in D&D. They are still unbalanced in E6. The answer? Don't let people play them.

Artificers are not a core option. DMs are under no obligation to include them in their E6 game. Ergo, don't. There's plenty of content left. As far as Caster Level limits...well, yes you can boost your CL. But as I said, if you play with the simple houserule: "Anything that requires an ability available typically to only level 7 characters doesn't exist", then your problem disappears. By definition, this makes level 4 spells, Caster level 7 items and the like available only by DM fiat. AKA Rituals and Artifacts.

If you bring the same assumptions to E6 as you bring to vanilla 3.5 D&D, then E6 doesn't work. That's because E6 =/= 3.5 D&D. It's a different game with similar mechanics, and you have to play it differently to get the intended results. If you don't change your approach to the game, and the game doesn't function well as a result, you've really got nobody to blame but you.

Human Paragon 3

2011-11-07, 11:20 AM

I got honorable mention in the e6 Balor smackdown contest. I optmizied stunning fist to stun the balor and then beheaded him with his own vorpal sword!

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-07, 11:59 AM

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 12:12 PM

As per DMG errata caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it is specifically stated between the semicolons around the other prerequisites. Any Wizard 5 with Haste and Craft Arms/Armor can make a +1 Speed weapon, whether in a regular game or in E6. Caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it includes "creator’s caster level must be at least" among the prerequisites.

On top of that, powerful outsiders with spell-like abilities at a high caster level can take item creation feats, and Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) can be used to mimic higher level spells for purposes of fulfilling item creation prerequisites as well as to summon those powerful outsiders to the material plane. Midgard Dwarves in Frostburn can create any wondrous, ring, or arms/armor as though they fulfilled all the prerequisites, which includes intelligent items, relics, epic items, and even artifacts of those item types. There are ways built into the game for characters to obtain items that couldn't normally be crafted by a 6th level character. Since the only direction an E6 character can grow after 6th level is in obtaining feats and magic items, placing arbitrary limitations on what items can exist in the setting isn't exactly fair to character growth.

The beautiful thing about a system of house rules is that it's free to disregard errata. But I've had that discussion before with some of the people here before, and all I'm going to say to that point now is that adhering strictly to RAW when you're playing in a system of house rules is, by definition, nonsensical.

The point is that regardless of whether or not you can achieve access to these items or higher level abilities is irrelevant. The question is, in a world where you're playing by a system of house rules that intentionally limits the power of a campaign to around level six, is it a good idea to permit access to higher level items or abilities?

If you want E6 to function as advertised, and YMMV here, then the answer is probably a resounding no. E6 is nothing but arbitrary limits on character growth. You can either level those limits equally on every aspect of the game, thus creating a true ceiling on the power available in the game, OR you can level those limits unequally on differing aspects of the game, and whatever happens, happens. In my experience, preserving the caster level limit on items creates a more balanced environment in E6. Higher level items are given as artifacts to have been created by the gods or what have you.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 12:20 PM

This is the primary issue here. D&D includes levels of optimization as a subset of its core assumptions. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds are unbalanced in D&D. They are still unbalanced in E6. The answer? Don't let people play them.

They are a powerful option normally, yes. However, things like "access to epic feats" are rather substantially more broken in E6. Note additionally that while it's the easiest method to gain access to them, DW Kobold is not the only method to do so.

Artificers are not a core option. DMs are under no obligation to include them in their E6 game. Ergo, don't. There's plenty of content left. As far as Caster Level limits...well, yes you can boost your CL. But as I said, if you play with the simple houserule: "Anything that requires an ability available typically to only level 7 characters doesn't exist", then your problem disappears. By definition, this makes level 4 spells, Caster level 7 items and the like available only by DM fiat. AKA Rituals and Artifacts.

In addition to the DMG errata(which always has been ignored whenever I bring it up), CL 7 people are fairly common. There are a *lot* of ways to get a +1 CL boost. Hell, a caster 5/wild mage 1 can pull off a CL 9 spell out of the box with no optimization whatsoever. If they take a single feat, well, we're talking about being able to hit CL 12.

Or does every single CL booster not exist anywhere for anyone? That's a notable change.

Also, banning non-core is a pretty notable change. Artificer isn't some obscure dragon class...if, say, you're playing Eberron, it's quite normal to expect it to exist.

If you bring the same assumptions to E6 as you bring to vanilla 3.5 D&D, then E6 doesn't work. That's because E6 =/= 3.5 D&D. It's a different game with similar mechanics, and you have to play it differently to get the intended results. If you don't change your approach to the game, and the game doesn't function well as a result, you've really got nobody to blame but you.

If you apply optimization to it, it breaks wide open and requires near endless bannings to constantly try to patch it.

All those things you're doing are not listed in the E6 rules, and thus, cannot be assumed to be standardized. In fact, it is sufficiently unclear that I am likely to have notable uncertainty over exactly what is considered OK and what is considered exploitative. Epic toughness is out? What about abusing different full bab classes to qualify for giant's toughness?

The Boz

2011-11-07, 12:26 PM

Your problem seems to be "it doesn't fix everything that's wrong with D&D, so it's worse than D&D."
I don't know how to respond to that.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-07, 12:28 PM

Higher level items are given as artifacts to have been created by the gods or what have you.

That's exactly what I was saying, powerful outsiders whose power is deific relative to a 6th level character can create higher level magic items. It just so happens that ambitious E6ers could actually summon such creatures and bind them into a contract in order to get them to create such items. I wasn't saying characters could just stop by the Magic*Mart and purchase such items, obtaining them would be extremely involved and incredibly risky, and earning those items would be just as fun as using them.

As for caster level limiting magic items in a way that was never intended, that cuts out all the basic Belt of Strength, Gloves of Dex, Periapt of Con, Headband of Int, etc. because they all have a stated caster level of 8th. If you're going to allow some such items but not others, then you'll eventually encounter dissatisfied players who look at the PC over here who got a higher default CL item that's a huge benefit to his class, but the dissatisfied player's character can't get a similar item that's just as huge a benefit to himself.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 12:33 PM

1. In addition to the DMG errata(which always has been ignored whenever I bring it up), CL 7 people are fairly common. There are a *lot* of ways to get a +1 CL boost. Hell, a caster 5/wild mage 1 can pull off a CL 9 spell out of the box with no optimization whatsoever. If they take a single feat, well, we're talking about being able to hit CL 12.

Or does every single CL booster not exist anywhere for anyone? That's a notable change.

2. Also, banning non-core is a pretty notable change. Artificer isn't some obscure dragon class...if, say, you're playing Eberron, it's quite normal to expect it to exist.

3. All those things you're doing are not listed in the E6 rules, and thus, cannot be assumed to be standardized.

1. The DMG errata are irrelevant. E6 is a system of house rules, ergo, there's no necessity to include errata if it's non-productive to the game. Moreover, I didn't suggest eliminating caster level boosters. I suggested eliminating from existence those very things that boosted caster levels permit you to create. Congratulations, you have a CL 12. What are you going to craft with your shiny new caster level? Nothing. Why? Because nothing with a Caster Level higher than 6 exists except to gods and such. No, such is not included in the rules of E6, but E6 is not RAW. It's a system of houserules. Which means if E6 sets out to achieve a goal, and it fails to reach that goal, and you want to play a game that meets the definition of that goal, then you houserule so that the game reaches its intended goal. Again, this is common sense.

2. This is a strawman. I did not suggest banning non-core. I suggested banning ONE ITEM of non-core material. I said that, and I quote "Artificers are not a core option. DMs are under no obligation to include them in their E6 game. Ergo, don't."

Please note that I did not say, "Non-core is a non core option. DMs are under no obligation to include non-core in their E6 game. Ergo, don't."

3. As above, E6 doesn't necessarily go far enough, or is not necessarily clear enough in all aspects, to achieve its goal. The "fixes" are easy and quick. Just assume that CL7+ items in the world were never written. As in, ignore the parts of the DMG et. al. that describe items with CL above 6. If you want one of those items, then a god did it. Treat the rules for creating a Phylactery of Undead Turning as exactly identical to creating a Deck of Many Things. Problem solved.

1.That's exactly what I was saying, powerful outsiders whose power is deific relative to a 6th level character can create higher level magic items. It just so happens that ambitious E6ers could actually summon such creatures and bind them into a contract in order to get them to create such items. I wasn't saying characters could just stop by the Magic*Mart and purchase such items, obtaining them would be extremely involved and incredibly risky, and earning those items would be just as fun as using them.

2. As for caster level limiting magic items in a way that was never intended, that cuts out all the basic Belt of Strength, Gloves of Dex, Periapt of Con, Headband of Int, etc. because they all have a stated caster level of 8th. If you're going to allow some such items but not others, then you'll eventually encounter dissatisfied players who look at the PC over here who got a higher default CL item that's a huge benefit to his class, but the dissatisfied player's character can't get a similar item that's just as huge a benefit to himself.

1. Ah I misread you then. In that case, then yes, that's a problem inherited from Vanilla 3.5...but as long as there is appropriate risk to ensure that these processes can't be repeated, then no big deal. This just comes down to being a good DM I would think. Rule on a case by case basis.

2. It absolutely cuts out a lot of items. C'est la vie. It means your stats no longer reach arbitrarily high. Your characters are much more limited. Per dissatisfied players, then just ensure that distribution of high CL items (read: Artifacts) happens relatively equally.

If I give you Gloves of Dexterity +2 then, the Fighter should get his Belt of Giant Strength +2, and the Wizard should get...well, the Wizard doesn't really need the help but we'll say for the sake of argument that he gets his Headband of Intellect +2 as well.

Again, this is just prudent DMing. If you favor any player, be it in Vanilla D&D or E6 with an abundance of high power items, and give none to anybody else, then your players will be upset. Just the way things go. Distribute your treasure equally. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 01:58 PM

1. The DMG errata are irrelevant. E6 is a system of house rules, ergo, there's no necessity to include errata if it's non-productive to the game. Moreover, I didn't suggest eliminating caster level boosters. I suggested eliminating from existence those very things that boosted caster levels permit you to create. Congratulations, you have a CL 12. What are you going to craft with your shiny new caster level? Nothing.

CL 12 Searing Spelled waves of death?

Honestly, I popped a warmage with Fiery Burst and Arcane Thesis(Fireball) into an E6 game once, and it was a bit ridiculous. I hadn't even gotten to all the extra feats E6 provided, nor was this anything like the pinnacle of optimization and it was already quite potent. As the game went on...well, when I get maximize and invisible while you pick toughness and weapon focus...good luck with that.

Feats are not of equal importance for all builds. For instance, Levels in fighter are almost invariably a terrible decision for E6(excluding dungeoncrasher).

2. This is a strawman. I did not suggest banning non-core. I suggested banning ONE ITEM of non-core material. I said that, and I quote "Artificers are not a core option. DMs are under no obligation to include them in their E6 game. Ergo, don't."

But, apparently, you don't believe DMs are under an obligation to include core stuff either. So, why the differentiation?

3. As above, E6 doesn't necessarily go far enough, or is not necessarily clear enough in all aspects, to achieve its goal. The "fixes" are easy and quick. Just assume that CL7+ items in the world were never written. As in, ignore the parts of the DMG et. al. that describe items with CL above 6. If you want one of those items, then a god did it. Treat the rules for creating a Phylactery of Undead Turning as exactly identical to creating a Deck of Many Things. Problem solved.

That's not solving anything, that's just saying "it's undefined".

2. It absolutely cuts out a lot of items. C'est la vie. It means your stats no longer reach arbitrarily high. Your characters are much more limited. Per dissatisfied players, then just ensure that distribution of high CL items (read: Artifacts) happens relatively equally.

Items are not what make stats arbitrarily high. Loops such as pun-pun make your stats arbitrarily high. Pun-pun has no trouble working at level 6. Now, nobody should aim for this, but it does demonstrate that the solution isn't much matching the problem.

If I give you Gloves of Dexterity +2 then, the Fighter should get his Belt of Giant Strength +2, and the Wizard should get...well, the Wizard doesn't really need the help but we'll say for the sake of argument that he gets his Headband of Intellect +2 as well.

So...some CL 8 stuff exists, and some doesn't? Why? As a player, how am I to know which is which? If I don't know what options I have, how can I reasonably choose them? Am I permitted to rebuild my crafting char when I realize I can't actually craft anything?

Again, this is just prudent DMing. If you favor any player, be it in Vanilla D&D or E6 with an abundance of high power items, and give none to anybody else, then your players will be upset. Just the way things go. Distribute your treasure equally. :smallamused:

Or, in other words, the game isn't balanced, so you're depending on the DM to balance it.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 02:23 PM

CL 12 Searing Spelled waves of death?

1. Honestly, I popped a warmage with Fiery Burst and Arcane Thesis(Fireball) into an E6 game once, and it was a bit ridiculous. I hadn't even gotten to all the extra feats E6 provided, nor was this anything like the pinnacle of optimization and it was already quite potent. As the game went on...well, when I get maximize and invisible while you pick toughness and weapon focus...good luck with that.

Feats are not of equal importance for all builds. For instance, Levels in fighter are almost invariably a terrible decision for E6(excluding dungeoncrasher).

2. But, apparently, you don't believe DMs are under an obligation to include core stuff either. So, why the differentiation?

3. That's not solving anything, that's just saying "it's undefined".

4. Items are not what make stats arbitrarily high. Loops such as pun-pun make your stats arbitrarily high. Pun-pun has no trouble working at level 6. Now, nobody should aim for this, but it does demonstrate that the solution isn't much matching the problem.

5. So...some CL 8 stuff exists, and some doesn't? Why? As a player, how am I to know which is which? If I don't know what options I have, how can I reasonably choose them? Am I permitted to rebuild my crafting char when I realize I can't actually craft anything?

6. Or, in other words, the game isn't balanced, so you're depending on the DM to balance it.

1. Correct. Optimized spellcasters are still more powerful than Weapon Focus wielding Fighters. E6 doesn't fix this. It's a matter of degree. Gate dwarfs Shock Trooper + Leap attack to a far greater magnitude than Weapon Focus vs. Fireball. I'm not sure anyone said otherwise.

2. I'm not sure what point you're making here. I suggested banning one problematic piece of non-core material. This is what most people do with things that introduce problems into gameplay. Like Candles of Invocation. I'm not sure why you're arguing over this.

3. That's removing content from the hands of PCs, which is exactly what E6 does by design. Moreover, when you want to discuss CL7+ items, the definition I described does not result in, "undefined". It results in "Definition - Major Artifact".

4. So...rather than address the point of my argument, you address the corollary. Yes, technically, the word "arbitrarily high" refers to a threshold that only Pun-Pun esque loops can solve. For practical purposes, A level 20 character in Vanilla D&D can achieve 36+ in a single stat. Functionally speaking, when compared to a character in E6 who's limited to 20ish in a given stat, it may as well be arbitrarily high. You'll have to forgive my use of hyperbole, but pedantics aside you haven't really diminished my point any.

5. Yes. CL 8 stuff does exist. As Artifacts. Just like a Deck of Many Things and a Shadow Staff might exist but can not be created by PCs in Vanilla 3.5, so too in E6 can CL 8 stuff exist that can not be created by PCs. You do not have the option to create CL 8 stuff in the E6 I'm proposing. As I suggested, treat anything with a CL 7+ as an artifact, that is, something a PC can not create. This means CL 8 things can exist, you just can't make them. Exactly as is the case with Artifacts.

6. Yes. This is an inherent assumption of both E6 and 3.5 D&D. The game is fundamentally unbalanced. I, the DM, can either give you 1,000,000 GP by Level 10, and zero GP to everyone else if I so choose. If I do, the game will be unbalanced. If I give you a +10 sword at Level 5, and everybody else a cursed weapon that decreases all their stats to 1, then the game will be unbalanced.

The DM is the arbiter of balance in any game of D&D. In E6, the DM is still the arbiter of balance. Distributing wealth evenly is part of the balance inherent to D&D. If I give away artifacts (CL 8+ items) unevenly in E6 then I create imbalance. This is exactly the same if I, the DM, were to give out Shadow Staffs and Spheres of Annihilation unevenly in Vanilla D&D.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-07, 02:27 PM

1. Ah I misread you then. In that case, then yes, that's a problem inherited from Vanilla 3.5...but as long as there is appropriate risk to ensure that these processes can't be repeated, then no big deal. This just comes down to being a good DM I would think. Rule on a case by case basis.

2. It absolutely cuts out a lot of items. C'est la vie. It means your stats no longer reach arbitrarily high. Your characters are much more limited. Per dissatisfied players, then just ensure that distribution of high CL items (read: Artifacts) happens relatively equally.

If I give you Gloves of Dexterity +2 then, the Fighter should get his Belt of Giant Strength +2, and the Wizard should get...well, the Wizard doesn't really need the help but we'll say for the sake of argument that he gets his Headband of Intellect +2 as well.

Again, this is just prudent DMing. If you favor any player, be it in Vanilla D&D or E6 with an abundance of high power items, and give none to anybody else, then your players will be upset. Just the way things go. Distribute your treasure equally. :smallamused:

If you're permitting characters to risk summoning outsiders for item creation, an Imp or a Quasit can contribute a caster level of 12 toward an item's prerequisites, as long as one of the PCs has the item creation feats, spells, etc. So on the one hand items with a higher caster level are beyond the means of PCs, but at the same time it's not very risky at all to summon something that can enable them to craft those. A no-shenanigans Kobold Sorcerer 6 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) can get Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) for an Imp or Quasit, and have a perfectly willing caster level 12 contributor all day every day.

The difference between a reasonable stat and an arbitrarily high stat is not +6. An E6 Druid can get the Druid capstone feat and Ability Enhancer, and Wild Shape: Brown Bear with Bite of the Werewolf and have Str 31, Dex 19, Con 25, and +9 natural armor. Why shouldn't a Barbarian or a Warblade be able to get an item that grants +6 Str?

You could go Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) and have Str 32, Dex 6, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6, and +7 natural armor, DR 5/Cold Iron or Good, with two slam attacks which each counts as a two-handed weapon, and See Invisibility 3/day, Levitate 1/day, and Fear 1/day as spell-like abilities.

My point is, placing arbitrary restrictions on magic items is both unnecessary and extremely easy to bypass. When you consider all the options characters have at this level and in E6 in general, the characters who will benefit most from those higher default caster level items are the ones pulling fewer shenanigans in the first place.

syryous

2011-11-07, 02:31 PM

So...some CL 8 stuff exists, and some doesn't? Why? As a player, how am I to know which is which? If I don't know what options I have, how can I reasonably choose them? Am I permitted to rebuild my crafting char when I realize I can't actually craft anything?

Or, in other words, the game isn't balanced, so you're depending on the DM to balance it.

Would it be too difficult to sit down with your group and decide before the game begins how you want to handle CL issues? Each group may approach it differently. Some may consider 10d6 Fireballs okay, others not. It's a system of house rules to begin with so I don't see what the big deal is.

3.X has never been balanced, in any form. E1 wouldn't even do it. E6, in my opinion, just closes the gap a bit. Monks still suck.

JaronK

2011-11-07, 02:35 PM

E6 is only a step towards balance, but it does help. One obvious thing is that it makes the restrictions less obvious. By saying "4th level spells and a caster level above 6 is outside the range of mortal magic" it becomes less arbitrary to say "sorry, anything that gives you either of those things simply doesn't work."

JaronK

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 02:38 PM

My point is, placing arbitrary restrictions on magic items is both unnecessary and extremely easy to bypass. When you consider all the options characters have at this level and in E6 in general, the characters who will benefit most from those higher default caster level items are the ones pulling fewer shenanigans in the first place.

Maybe it is unnecessary, but my game places limits on items and it works out fine. The limits aren't easy to bypass...for a simple reason. You're the DM. It's not hard to say, "The crafting process lasts for weeks at a time, good luck having that Imp around for all of those many many hours to contribute the CL 12 consistently".

In other words, If you tell your players, "You will be limited to items of caster level 6th or lower", then it is trivially easy to say, "By the way, shenanigans pulled to get around this will also be banned, so don't design your character around trying to circumvent these limits."

My players enjoy it, and like I said, this ultimately results in E6 functioning as advertised for us. As far as ability enhancers go, a +6 Headband of intellect does much more work to murder enemies with Save or Die spells than a +6 Belt of Giant Strength does to murder enemies with regular attacks. A Cleric with a Phylactery of Undead Turning can Command Undead as a level 10 Cleric. Shadows suddenly become permanent minions. They're incorporeal strength draining creatures that create spawn. Almost nothing you'll encounter in E6 can hit them. Similarly, almost nothing you'll encounter will be able to resist their strength drain.

If you permit items up to CL 11 to become freely available, a Cleric can achieve a Commanding/Rebuking level of around 20, allowing them to auto Rebuke/Command any undead up to 10HD. Given the lack of options at ECL 6, this is game changing.

And these tricks are tricks that melee classes will never be able to replicate. I remain unconvinced that better items do more for melee than for casters...especially at a level 6 degree of play.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 02:43 PM

1. Correct. Optimized spellcasters are still more powerful than Weapon Focus wielding Fighters. E6 doesn't fix this. It's a matter of degree. Gate dwarfs Shock Trooper + Leap attack to a far greater magnitude than Weapon Focus vs. Fireball. I'm not sure anyone said otherwise.

Sort of. If you nerf the CL things and all that too much, then chargers end up dominating all. The problem is, regardless of what level of nerfing you do, you still don't achieve balance.

2. I'm not sure what point you're making here. I suggested banning one problematic piece of non-core material. This is what most people do with things that introduce problems into gameplay. Like Candles of Invocation. I'm not sure why you're arguing over this.

The point is, it's not alone. Not even a little bit. You have to ban substantial portions of material to achieve your stated goals. I don't see how "non core" helps establish your argument.

3. That's removing content from the hands of PCs, which is exactly what E6 does by design. Moreover, when you want to discuss CL7+ items, the definition I described does not result in, "undefined". It results in "Definition - Major Artifact".

And what's the creation process for a major artifact?

You've just swapped things from a defined process to an undefined one. That doesn't fix anything, it's just a restatement that the DM is expected to fix it by fiat.

As an amusing aside, anything interacting with 10th level slots, etc is excused from cl requirements, per the epic rules. Presumably you'll also want to ban such high cheese should it arise.

4. So...rather than address the point of my argument, you address the corollary. Yes, technically, the word "arbitrarily high" refers to a threshold that only Pun-Pun esque loops can solve. For practical purposes, A level 20 character in Vanilla D&D can achieve 36+ in a single stat. Functionally speaking, when compared to a character in E6 who's limited to 20ish in a given stat, it may as well be arbitrarily high. You'll have to forgive my use of hyperbole, but pedantics aside you haven't really diminished my point any.

Half dragon water orc going into orc paragon with the +2 item you mentioned pulls off a 34 strength, at level 3. Feel free to apply additional optimization for much, much higher numbers. Oh look, the guy who created E6, in the rules for E6, built in feats to boost every stat. Huh.

E6 does not put much of a damper on stats. In fact, given how it deals with LA, it probably encourages stat pumping more than 3.5 does, at least for SAD classes. Which, obviously, are the ones that are already likely to break things.

5. Yes. CL 8 stuff does exist. As Artifacts. Just like a Deck of Many Things and a Shadow Staff might exist but can not be created by PCs in Vanilla 3.5, so too in E6 can CL 8 stuff exist that can not be created by PCs. You do not have the option to create CL 8 stuff in the E6 I'm proposing. As I suggested, treat anything with a CL 7+ as an artifact, that is, something a PC can not create. This means CL 8 things can exist, you just can't make them. Exactly as is the case with Artifacts.

6. Yes. This is an inherent assumption of both E6 and 3.5 D&D. The game is fundamentally unbalanced. I, the DM, can either give you 1,000,000 GP by Level 10, and zero GP to everyone else if I so choose. If I do, the game will be unbalanced. If I give you a +10 sword at Level 5, and everybody else a cursed weapon that decreases all their stats to 1, then the game will be unbalanced.

The DM is the arbiter of balance in any game of D&D. In E6, the DM is still the arbiter of balance. Distributing wealth evenly is part of the balance inherent to D&D. If I give away artifacts (CL 8+ items) unevenly in E6 then I create imbalance. This is exactly the same if I, the DM, were to give out Shadow Staffs and Spheres of Annihilation unevenly in Vanilla D&D.

So, you're gonna give out, in your words, major artifacts of +2 x to each player in the party?

Note that these are sufficiently rare that only one of each of them exists in the world, per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm). If you'll excuse me, I have to go look for my suspension of disbelief.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 02:55 PM

1. Sort of. If you nerf the CL things and all that too much, then chargers end up dominating all. The problem is, regardless of what level of nerfing you do, you still don't achieve balance.

2. The point is, it's not alone. Not even a little bit. You have to ban substantial portions of material to achieve your stated goals. I don't see how "non core" helps establish your argument.

3. And what's the creation process for a major artifact?

4. Half dragon water orc going into orc paragon with the +2 item you mentioned pulls off a 34 strength, at level 3. Feel free to apply additional optimization for much, much higher numbers. Oh look, the guy who created E6, in the rules for E6, built in feats to boost every stat. Huh.

E6 does not put much of a damper on stats. In fact, given how it deals with LA, it probably encourages stat pumping more than 3.5 does, at least for SAD classes. Which, obviously, are the ones that are already likely to break things.

5. So, you're gonna give out, in your words, major artifacts of +2 x to each player in the party?

Note that these are sufficiently rare that only one of each of them exists in the world, per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm). If you'll excuse me, I have to go look for my suspension of disbelief.

1. Chargers will never dominate all. They can make mist out of one minor mook per turn. But they can't deal with rough terrain, flying opponents or essentially creative encounter design to begin with. Let them have their ball.

2. So your complaint here boils down to "stuff is banned"? This is E6. Character levels 7 through 20 are banned. Why are you complaining about an Artificer and a bunch of items. If banning things for the sake of balance upsets you, don't play E6?

3. Be a god. Not that it matters. All that really matters is that PCs can't do it. They never could. All you're doing is changing the definition of a Minor or Major artifact to include things from CL 7 up. But even in Vanilla 3.5, you, the PC, can not create a Sphere of Annihilation at level 20. All that's changing is how many items are encompassed under the title artifact.

4. Yep, he did create some feats for stat boosting. You can also create template monstrosities. That's fine. The former case requires two feats to achieve a +2 bonus in one stat? Balanced enough as far as I'm concerned. Template monstrosities? That falls under Rule -1. Please don't be a ****. Don't break my game.

5. Epic 6th. That's the name of the game. Which means that as far as the game is concerned, you are an Epic level character. If you're NOT questing for artifacts as part of your Epic level campaign, then maybe Epic means something different to me than it does to you.

And as a disclaimer, since this has become the focus of the debate.

E6 is NOT balanced, because 3.5 D&D is not balanced. That said, E6 is MORE balanced than 3.5 D&D and provided you play it with a little bit of common sense, it performs fairly well. The point of E6 was not to balance the game across the board. E6 playing as intended is, "Monsters like Manticores and Wyverns are still dangerous and Epic challenges. You are a legendary hero, but the local town army and their guards, in enough numbers, are still enough to overpower you". That's what E6 is all about. And as long as you don't let your power stretch further out than around level 6, it pretty much delivers on that promise.

Str 32, Dex 6, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6, and +7 natural armor

And just as an aside...this character, for all their abilities, is going to cry the first time they're hit with a SoD spell that targets Will saves. Or if they happen to take Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha damage. They've opted to prioritize strength over every other stat, and left themselves a bunch weaknesses. This isn't a particularly optimized character at all, despite having a good strength score.

Emmerask

2011-11-07, 03:01 PM

chargers are pretty easily dealt with via blink, blur, fog, terrain etcetc

Giving caster excess to higher level spell slots on the other hand is not that easy to deal with.

So while charging is one of the best things in e6 it can very easily be rendered completely useless by even unexperienced dms.

/swordsaged

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-07, 03:22 PM

And just as an aside...this character, for all their abilities, is going to cry the first time they're hit with a SoD spell that targets Will saves. Or if they happen to take Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha damage. They've opted to prioritize strength over every other stat, and left themselves a bunch weaknesses. This isn't a particularly optimized character at all, despite having a good strength score.

If his +15 for Moment of Perfect Mind or Action Before Thought can't make the save, then nobody else in the party could have made that save, either.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 03:23 PM

1. Chargers will never dominate all. They can make mist out of one minor mook per turn. But they can't deal with rough terrain, flying opponents or essentially creative encounter design to begin with. Let them have their ball.

What, do raptorans and the like not also exist? Flying charger builds are a possible thing.

Note also that warlocks do not give a care about flying in E6.

2. So your complaint here boils down to "stuff is banned"? This is E6. Character levels 7 through 20 are banned. Why are you complaining about an Artificer and a bunch of items. If banning things for the sake of balance upsets you, don't play E6?

The point is that, it's highly, highly reliant on a large list of unpredictable bannings and house rules not included in the ruleset. A sufficiently large list that char creation often resembles a game of Mother May I?

4. Yep, he did create some feats for stat boosting. You can also create template monstrosities. That's fine. The former case requires two feats to achieve a +2 bonus in one stat? Balanced enough as far as I'm concerned. Template monstrosities? That falls under Rule -1. Please don't be a ****. Don't break my game.

But high stats /= breaking game.

5. Epic 6th. That's the name of the game. Which means that as far as the game is concerned, you are an Epic level character. If you're NOT questing for artifacts as part of your Epic level campaign, then maybe Epic means something different to me than it does to you.

And as a disclaimer, since this has become the focus of the debate.

So...you'll allow epic feats?

E6 is NOT balanced, because 3.5 D&D is not balanced. That said, E6 is MORE balanced than 3.5 D&D and provided you play it with a little bit of common sense, it performs fairly well. The point of E6 was not to balance the game across the board. E6 playing as intended is, "Monsters like Manticores and Wyverns are still dangerous and Epic challenges. You are a legendary hero, but the local town army and their guards, in enough numbers, are still enough to overpower you". That's what E6 is all about. And as long as you don't let your power stretch further out than around level 6, it pretty much delivers on that promise.[/quote]

No, it's about slower power growth. That's it. Power scaling still happens, just slower, and it's feat centric. This is not fair in the slightest, because feats are not fair.

And just as an aside...this character, for all their abilities, is going to cry the first time they're hit with a SoD spell that targets Will saves. Or if they happen to take Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha damage. They've opted to prioritize strength over every other stat, and left themselves a bunch weaknesses. This isn't a particularly optimized character at all, despite having a good strength score.

Again, you've confused stats with game breaking. Having a high stat is not the same as breaking the game. That was the point of the example. It adequately demonstrates that your objective and your means are not well aligned.

MukkTB

2011-11-07, 03:24 PM

Tyndmyr if you don't like E6 don't play E6. IDK the biggest benefit I see is the Tippyverse is moderately averted.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 03:31 PM

Tyndmyr if you don't like E6 don't play E6. IDK the biggest benefit I see is the Tippyverse is moderately averted.

Look back at the OP, it's not about liking it or not. It's that it's unfair to certain types.

And yes, rogue types have it rough. The skillmonkey role is not as fantastic unless you dump a LOT of feats at it. A skill focus feat isn't the equivalent of a power attack or Extra Slot. It is MUCH easier to make a caster or charger function roughly as a char two levels higher, where as a skillmonkey takes many, many more feats to do so.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 03:54 PM

Look back at the OP, it's not about liking it or not. It's that it's unfair to certain types.

And yes, rogue types have it rough. The skillmonkey role is not as fantastic unless you dump a LOT of feats at it. A skill focus feat isn't the equivalent of a power attack or Extra Slot. It is MUCH easier to make a caster or charger function roughly as a char two levels higher, where as a skillmonkey takes many, many more feats to do so.

It's unfair to certain types? 3.5 D&D is unfair to any type that isn't full caster. E6 is unfair to only Rogues? That's an improvement if you ask me.

If his +15 for Moment of Perfect Mind or Action Before Thought can't make the save, then nobody else in the party could have made that save, either.

Fair enough. He's still vulnerable to Ego Whip and Lesser Shivering Touch. To be fair though, bringing this to the table at ECL 1 is probably going to get DMG's thrown at your head. Incidentally, do you mind PMing me the build? I'd be curious to see what it looks like just as a thought exercise.

1. What, do raptorans and the like not also exist? Flying charger builds are a possible thing.

Note also that warlocks do not give a care about flying in E6.

2. The point is that, it's highly, highly reliant on a large list of unpredictable bannings and house rules not included in the ruleset. A sufficiently large list that char creation often resembles a game of Mother May I.

3. But high stats /= breaking game.

4. So...you'll allow epic feats?

5. No, it's about slower power growth. That's it. Power scaling still happens, just slower, and it's feat centric. This is not fair in the slightest, because feats are not fair.

6. Again, you've confused stats with game breaking. Having a high stat is not the same as breaking the game. That was the point of the example. It adequately demonstrates that your objective and your means are not well aligned.

1. No Raptorans do not exist in my game but even if they did, they don't gain flying out of the box. They gain it as their HD improve. And even a flying charger can't charge everything all the time. Chargers are extremely predictable and extremely easy to counter.

...and Warlocks aren't chargers, so they're not relevant to the point you're arguing.

2. So far, making E6 work means, "Ban anything above Level 6 power". If you couldn't normally have it at level 6, you can't have it. Ergo, CL7+ items are banned. Spells above 3rd level are banned. Classes that grant access to those things are banned. That's one rule. I'm not sure how that constitutes unpredictable or "Mother May I". Yes it's a broad and sweeping rule, but it's one rule that's easy to comprehend. It's the rule my E6 players use, and I've never had to clarify it. Because as I said, it's a simple rule.

3. See 6.

4. No. Epic 6th characters don't have access to Epic Feats designed for 20th level play. That's not what I was saying and you KNOW it. You're trying to argue against my point by attacking my language instead of my argument.

5. No, as I said, this, in the author's post on ENworld is what E6 is about:
"Imagine you are this peasant, and you meet a trio of 6th-level adventurers. When you address the wizard, you are speaking to someone who could incinerate your home and slay all your livestock with a few words. The fighter has prevailed against a dozen orcish skirmishers and slain them all – and he could do the same again. The cleric is a man so holy that the gods themselves have granted him the power to cure the sick and heal the wounded. These are epic heroes.

Now consider the powers of a CR 5 manticore. To the peasant, the appearance of this manticore near the village isn’t a nuisance: the beast can, and likely will slay you in seconds if you draw its attention. You, your livestock, and your entire family are in immediate danger of violent death. Even if you were well armed and gathered a large peasant militia, your village faces heavy losses and no guarantee of success. Against such a creature, adventurers may be your only hope. E6 recognizes that 6th level characters are mortal, while reframing the game’s perspective to create a context where those same 6th level characters are epic heroes."

6. True high stats /= broken game. But they can. If the average stat in a game is 16 at level 1, then you, bringing a full caster with a 32 casting stat to the table at level 1 means that you can cast spells that almost nobody can hope to save against. So high stats CAN mean broken game. In that scenario, you will overshadow the rest of your party. And that is, in my definition, broken, because you'll be the only one contributing.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-07, 04:18 PM

It's unfair to certain types? 3.5 D&D is unfair to any type that isn't full caster. E6 is unfair to only Rogues? That's an improvement if you ask me.

Not at all. The old Fighter, for example, is an EXTREMELY poor choice in E6. See, anything that can be replicated by feats is something that is a far less precious resource in E6.

You will note that this heavily favors spellcasting, as gaining spellcasting via feats is somewhat challenging. This, of course, is an imbalance in addition to all those already offered by 3.5.

1. No Raptorans do not exist in my game but even if they did, they don't gain flying out of the box. They gain it as their HD improve. And even a flying charger can't charge everything all the time. Chargers are extremely predictable and extremely easy to counter.

Pixies? Hell, anything else with wings? Half minotaur half dragon(which, incidentally, is going to turn anything it hits into dust)? There are a LOT of flying options out there.

...and Warlocks aren't chargers, so they're not relevant to the point you're arguing.

They can be. I'll grant, Warlocks aren't the greatest of Gishes at 6, but making a gish at level 6 with a giant pile of feats isn't really all that tough.

2. So far, making E6 work means, "Ban anything above Level 6 power". If you couldn't normally have it at level 6, you can't have it. Ergo, CL7+ items are banned. Spells above 3rd level are banned. Classes that grant access to those things are banned. That's one rule. I'm not sure how that constitutes unpredictable or "Mother May I". Yes it's a broad and sweeping rule, but it's one rule that's easy to comprehend. It's the rule my E6 players use, and I've never had to clarify it. Because as I said, it's a simple rule.

See, here's the thing. You listed many things that, by RAW, are completely legal to have at level 6. A CL 7 item at level 6 is actually quite normal, for instance.

5. No, as I said, this, in the author's post on ENworld is what E6 is about:
"Imagine you are this peasant, and you meet a trio of 6th-level adventurers. When you address the wizard, you are speaking to someone who could incinerate your home and slay all your livestock with a few words. The fighter has prevailed against a dozen orcish skirmishers and slain them all – and he could do the same again. The cleric is a man so holy that the gods themselves have granted him the power to cure the sick and heal the wounded. These are epic heroes.

Now consider the powers of a CR 5 manticore. To the peasant, the appearance of this manticore near the village isn’t a nuisance: the beast can, and likely will slay you in seconds if you draw its attention. You, your livestock, and your entire family are in immediate danger of violent death. Even if you were well armed and gathered a large peasant militia, your village faces heavy losses and no guarantee of success. Against such a creature, adventurers may be your only hope. E6 recognizes that 6th level characters are mortal, while reframing the game’s perspective to create a context where those same 6th level characters are epic heroes."

This gentleman also thought that six levels and twenty feats is the equivalent of about CR 10-12 at the max. I would say that the wild variety of winning entries for the Balor competition handily disproves his assumptions with regards to power levels.

6. True high stats /= broken game. But they can. If the average stat in a game is 16 at level 1, then you, bringing a full caster with a 32 casting stat to the table at level 1 means that you can cast spells that almost nobody can hope to save against. So high stats CAN mean broken game. In that scenario, you will overshadow the rest of your party. And that is, in my definition, broken, because you'll be the only one contributing.

Getting str is easier than say, getting int. Nerfing high stat possibilities is mostly a way to keep melee from having nice things.

A wizard will function perfectly fine so long as his casting modifier is high enough to cast all his spells. More is nice, but not at all required for game breaking.

JaronK

2011-11-07, 04:35 PM

I imagine charging would be a pretty common tactic in E6, but it's just so easily countered (held action to cast grease, difficult terrain, flying, and so on) and is so dangerous against groups (with the AC reduction from Shock Trooper) that it's hardly super powered. I'd still say a caster's ability to cast Animate Dead (mostly Archivist and Cleric only, though the right feats could get it for Wizards) and so on is still stronger... just not so hopelessly so.

JaronK

The Boz

2011-11-07, 04:38 PM

What do y'all think about E6ing Pathfinder?

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 04:39 PM

1. Not at all. The old Fighter, for example, is an EXTREMELY poor choice in E6. See, anything that can be replicated by feats is something that is a far less precious resource in E6.

You will note that this heavily favors spellcasting, as gaining spellcasting via feats is somewhat challenging. This, of course, is an imbalance in addition to all those already offered by 3.5.

2. Pixies? Hell, anything else with wings? Half minotaur half dragon(which, incidentally, is going to turn anything it hits into dust)? There are a LOT of flying options out there.

3. See, here's the thing. You listed many things that, by RAW, are completely legal to have at level 6. A CL 7 item at level 6 is actually quite normal, for instance.

4. This gentleman also thought that six levels and twenty feats is the equivalent of about CR 10-12 at the max. I would say that the wild variety of winning entries for the Balor competition handily disproves his assumptions with regards to power levels.

5. Getting str is easier than say, getting int. Nerfing high stat possibilities is mostly a way to keep melee from having nice things.

A wizard will function perfectly fine so long as his casting modifier is high enough to cast all his spells. More is nice, but not at all required for game breaking.

1. Indeed. Fighters are a poor choice. Arguably worse than they were in Vanilla 3.5 too. Every other melee class on the other hand is better off. So you've proven that E6 creates different imbalances than 3.5. That's true. But it also results in smaller imbalances that are easier for the DM to handle. And because the DM doesn't have to manage Gate, Shapechange, Dweomerkeepers, Polymorph or any of that garbage, he's got a lot more time left to balance everything else.

2. Again. Chargers are easy to shut down. Flying makes it a bit harder. But they're still not the winners of everything forever squared. They're just pretty decent martial classes.

3. Like I said, if you couldn't normally have it by Level 6, you can't have it in E6. Your Caster level at 6 is 6. It could be higher, it could be lower, but everyone with two brain cells that rub together probably has a good idea of what you're talking about when you say Level 6 is the cut off for content. You're attacking my argument based on pedantic grounds once again. But you and all the readers here, I'm pretty confident, know what I'm saying.

4. This is a straw man given the context of the discussion here. That Balor competition? It uses feats and magic items to achieve levels of power above that which is normally available to a 6th level character, explicitly the type of power use that we've been talking about banning here. Moreover, using theory craft as an argument against a given system of play is fallacious. Pun Pun is level 6 and can take on anything of an Arbitrary CR. This doesn't mean the author's predictions about E6 CRs are off. What it means is that broken content is broken. Please see rule -1. Don't be a ****. Don't break the game.

5. Indeed. That doesn't make it any less unbalanced to offer a 32 strength to someone at Level 1. Remember, we're talking about what passes as playable at the table, not in theory exercises. If you showed up to my table with a 32 strength at level 1, my players would show you the door. There's nothing wrong with Melee having nice things, but given that the power disparity between Wizards and Melee grows exponentially after ECL 6th, Melee is actually MUCH better off in E6. In fact, given the limited availability of spell slots for casters, Melees ability to hit things all day long is actually an asset. In an 8 hour adventuring day, in E6, you NEED melee.

I imagine charging would be a pretty common tactic in E6, but it's just so easily countered (held action to cast grease, difficult terrain, flying, and so on) and is so dangerous against groups (with the AC reduction from Shock Trooper) that it's hardly super powered. I'd still say a caster's ability to cast Animate Dead (mostly Archivist and Cleric only, though the right feats could get it for Wizards) and so on is still stronger... just not so hopelessly so.

JaronK

My Troll's javelin wielding Hobgoblin buddies are probably gonna make short work of your charger after watching you turn their leader into red mist :smallwink:

Zonugal

2011-11-07, 05:46 PM

I still don't see the terrible implication of a sixth level artificer in E6. Within the world described by the creator of the system a sixth level artificer should be a mad genius in a tower defying the world with his arcane science.

I mean looking, within core, the most powerful spell they gain access to is Reincarnate off of the Druid's list. It defies the very aspect of mortality within the universe. Is it crazy broken? Oh yeah but as long as it isn't used within every adventure there shouldn't be a huge crisis. If anything Artificers make better NPCs than PCs.

But I do understand the problem inherent in bringing Artificers into E6. It is fairly easy to create someone akin to Tony Stark who simply utilizes spells like Divine Power and Friendly Fire to become a walking Panzer tank on any battlefield. But that should ultimately come down to the DM and their relationship with the player (and group).

Also, a non-traditional fighter using ACFs and such is a tremendous choice for E6. A Goliath Fighter 6 (Str 20, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 13) using the Thug, Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Substitution levels and Physical Prowess ACFs has a lot to bring to the table. I mean for one thing he can bend iron bars, burst chain bonds and break down an iron door in a fairly reliable manner. In addition he is probably one of the best at intimidation in the region, has sufficient skills to track down someone in a city and can smash someone into a wall so hard they may explode.

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 06:19 PM

I still don't see the terrible implication of a sixth level artificer in E6. Within the world described by the creator of the system a sixth level artificer should be a mad genius in a tower defying the world with his arcane science.

If you play e6 under the assumption that 4th level spells (including scrolls and wands thereof) are not available using mortal magic, then they're not that bad. 4th Level spells are pretty game breaking.

JaronK

2011-11-07, 06:20 PM

I mean looking, within core, the most powerful spell they gain access to is Reincarnate off of the Druid's list. It defies the very aspect of mortality within the universe. Is it crazy broken? Oh yeah but as long as it isn't used within every adventure there shouldn't be a huge crisis. If anything Artificers make better NPCs than PCs.

Don't forget they can make wands off the Trapsmith list. That's going to have a serious effect too.

JaronK

Gullintanni

2011-11-07, 06:23 PM

Don't forget they can make wands off the Trapsmith list. That's going to have a serious effect too.

JaronK

Wow...Trapsmiths are pretty nuts. Yeah that could be problematic.

Midnight_v

2011-11-07, 07:13 PM

If you play e6 under the assumption that 4th level spells (including scrolls and wands thereof) are not available using mortal magic, then they're not that bad. 4th Level spells are pretty game breaking.

Something about that assertion I find onerous. . . I'm not a big fan of "Monster Only" toys though, so ymmv. 4th level magic exists, but players don't get it, sounds like a bad deal in many ways. So as you say "game breaking" effects still occur, but just to the players. I wouldn't want to inflict that rubric on my players...

JaronK

2011-11-07, 07:33 PM

Yora

2011-11-07, 07:37 PM

I was a huge fan of E6 for a long time, but I realized that almost no game I ever played ever passed 10th level and most ended much much earlier. Simply saying "No mortal has ever reached 11th level" seems like a much more convenient way of adressing the issue.

E6 really only becomes relevant when you know your campaign would last longer than it would take to reach 8th level under normal rules. If you know that's not going to happen E6 doesn't really add that much to the game, but you have to do some extra work to build certain villain types while staying within the rules.

JaronK

2011-11-07, 07:41 PM

Yora

2011-11-07, 07:46 PM

That actually sounds like a really interesting variant. Instead of just feats, you can also go for class features.

Midnight_v

2011-11-07, 10:49 PM

Actually, I like that a lot better. It gives a nice heroic sense to everything... mortals are a step below everything else, and you really have to fight to survive. It's a lot more interesting than the high level "oh look, a demon invasion, someone get a Wizard 20 to handle that" thing, and explains why your characters have to solve the problem instead of asking that high level NPC to just do it on his day off.

JaronK

Right, and you're totally entitled to. . . I have never had any illusions about the original 3.5 being a "Super-heroic" game. I know thats where it ends up.
I do think that the whol "Oh look a demon invasion etc etc..." is a over simplification. Pretty, much when you have a demon invasion the NpcW20 dies in the opening salvo. Which is why you need new hero's
Or... a demon invasion happens and its hard enough that your PC Wiz20 can't deal with it easily.
Some of that comes from poor dm'ing, imho, because there's ample challenge in the game without delving into "players can't have nice things"Tm.
Lastly, I try to avoid rail-roady adventures, some of what I've heard from E-6 enthusists is great, and some of it sounds like: "I like it cause use Fetch the maguffin, cause the players can't beat that without the artifact sword of legend!" which... you know some people WANT. I find it... distasteful, mostly, because rail-roading = bad dm'ing trait #3, in my book. Still Ymmv

JackRackham

2011-11-07, 10:59 PM

Ok, a couple things:

First, I'm no expert on E6, this was all an observation after looking over the rule set for 20 minutes. Second, I wasn't b**ching, nor was I bashing the system, just making an observation. Third, there have been some good points and, yes, one might be able to make a passable rogue-type character in this system with the right house rules (though, I think one would have to compromise their skill-monkey status to do so and would still be behind any full-BAB class, so...still a sub-optimal choice, by far).

I think my observation still stands, however. In relative terms, I think the Rogues and Scouts of the d&d world still are relatively the least powerful archetype in an E6 game - which is too bad, because they're the coolest ;)

Personally, I prefer a wide-open 3.5 anyway, but I thought a roguish character might be cool in an E6 world until I thought some about it...maybe in an E8 or E10 world....

Last thing, @whoever brought up Clerics and Druids, LOOOOOL. That's not to whom I was referring. Yes, they're 3/4 BAB. They get full spell progression, so they're different. I'm sure Warlocks are good in e6 too. I didn't mean them either. I meant the skillmonkey-ish 3/4 BAB characters.

Zonugal

2011-11-08, 01:14 AM

E6 can get pretty wild regarding shifters. If you happen to combine Troll-blooded with Shifter Stamina you are effectively immune to damage for as long as you are shifting (excluding acid & fire).

Gullintanni

2011-11-08, 07:30 AM

I do think that the whole "Oh look a demon invasion etc etc..." is a over simplification. Pretty, much when you have a demon invasion the NpcW20 dies in the opening salvo. Which is why you need new hero's
Or... a demon invasion happens and its hard enough that your PC Wiz20 can't deal with it easily.
Some of that comes from poor dm'ing, imho, because there's ample challenge in the game without delving into "players can't have nice things"Tm.
Lastly, I try to avoid rail-roady adventures, some of what I've heard from E-6 enthusists is great, and some of it sounds like: "I like it cause use Fetch the maguffin, cause the players can't beat that without the artifact sword of legend!" which... you know some people WANT. I find it... distasteful, mostly, because rail-roading = bad dm'ing trait #3, in my book. Still Ymmv

It's really not an oversimplification. Granted, this varies based on your optimization, but the last time one of my games went epic, my DM threw us into hell and let the invasion come. In a single encounter, my party killed 13 pit fiends. 9 of whom were 1 shotted by my Cleric. Then we went on to kill Mammon.

E6 is sometimes about McGuffins, and IMHO, I agree that's not desirable. E6 is often more MacGuyver than McGuffin though. The idea, if you have to fight an over CR'd opponent is to make use of tactics, strategic positioning and creativity (see Ewoks v. Storm Troopers or Tucker's Kobolds) to overcome challenges that your party otherwise can't. E6, DM'd properly, turns into an excruciating fight to survive that requires players to consistently change tactics and adapt in order to barely scrape by. Your party can't fight every battle, sometimes victory means just sneaking by.

High level D&D doesn't do this, because at some levels of optimization, you can throw literally two of anything in the MM1 at the party and they'll steamroll the encounter.

Ok, a couple things:
I think my observation still stands, however. In relative terms, I think the Rogues and Scouts of the d&d world still are relatively the least powerful archetype in an E6 game - which is too bad, because they're the coolest ;)

While it's true that you have to squeeze a little bit more out of your skillmonkey to make the most of them, they're still pretty playable. Rogue 6 is still good at skills, they're just not as melee capable. A hybrid Rogue3/Swashbuckler3 with Daring Outlaw, as I said earlier, is plenty skilly, and loses 1 point of BAB. It has good Reflex and Fort saves, and Int to damage +full sneak attack progression.

So what it comes down to in E6 is that if you want your Skillmonkey in melee, you have to multiclass a bit. If you don't, then they do their jobs just fine. In fact, competent skill-monkeys are even more important in E6 because casters don't have 100+1 spell slots to memorize spells like Knock or Spider Climb or Glibness. In E6, casters have the endurance to dominate only in the short term, but they have to prioritize resources, which means that without a skillmonkey, they're going to spend a lot of slots they don't have taking down mundane challenges.

Coidzor

2011-11-08, 07:46 AM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-11-08, 10:51 AM

I've been playing around with a modified E6 idea. The basic idea is that no one can ever have more than 6 class levels. PCs are limited to LA +0, no bloodlines, like all other mortals, but NPCs could be things like a Solar Cleric 6 (eep!) or similar. However, the PCs are special, in that they get a rotating Gestalt ability. Play as normal until level 6, then instead of level 7 you get to gestalt your level 1. At level 8 gestalt your level 2 and get a +1 to any stat. At 9 gestalt your third and get another bonus feat. Continue on until level 12, which you get +1 to a stat and +1 feat and you're full gestalt as well. At 13, gestalt in another level at level 1. And so on. This way the PCs keep leveling and keep getting interesting abilities and feats, but a big demon is still REALLY scary.

JaronK

I was actually going to do something identical to that, but most of the group I play with absolutely hates the idea of E6 and weren't even willing to try it out. Although I'd have still limited the NPCs/monsters to no more than 6 total HD if they have any class levels, but if they have just racial HD then the sky's the limit and they can get six gestalt class levels along side of the first six.

I'd have also allowed level adjustment, but it would have been extremely harsh in the long run. Whereas a +0 LA character has to gain 5,000 XP per virtual/gestalt level (the same as they needed to go from 5th to 6th), a +1 LA character would need 6,000 XP per virtual/gestalt level (the same as they needed to go from 5th to 6th). For a +0 LA character to reach 6th + Gestalt 6th it takes 45,000 XP, but for a +1 LA character to reach 6th + Gestalt 6th it would be 57,000 XP.

Considering you could use your first six levels to qualify for a prestige class and then gain it via your gestalt levels, it really opens up some possibilities. You could start out Wizard 1/ Duskblade 5, then get Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 1 (Mind Over Matter) and be able to cast all your abjurations Quickened for free (Dispel Magic!) and get a +9 AC from Shield and +12 from Luminous Armor. You could get Talon of Tiamat 6 with Maximize Breath and Clinging Breath, and have a 1/day cone of acid that deals 60+30+15+7 damage over four rounds. You could get Incantatrix 3+ for persistent spell shenanigans, and have a few 24-hour Invisible Fell Drain Cloud of Knives spells floating around you....

Tytalus

2011-11-08, 10:56 AM

They are a powerful option normally, yes. However, things like "access to epic feats" are rather substantially more broken in E6.

Given that kobolds can access epic feats at level 1 and regular D&D covers the same levels, I don't see why that would be the case.

Hell, a caster 5/wild mage 1 can pull off a CL 9 spell out of the box with no optimization whatsoever. If they take a single feat, well, we're talking about being able to hit CL 12.

According to the FAQ, Practiced Spellcaster (which I presume you are referring to) doesn't work like that (it's a wrong ruling, IMHO, but hey, the FAQ isn't RAW anyway). Even if it does, it's a special case and hardly indicative of E6 problems in general.

Caster level shenaigans are possible all over the D&D level spectrum, starting at level 1 (CL-boosting feats), passing the RAI-incompatible wild mage, the spellthief chameleon, etc. Heck, one of the first iconic optimization builds focused on inflated caster levels (The Word).

All that E6 really changes is that CL-boosting feats remain useful throughout the entire PC career.

If you apply optimization to it, it breaks wide open and requires near endless bannings to constantly try to patch it.

Similar to regular D&D, but not nearly as much.

Overall, very few things are more powerful (caster level boosts arguably are). On the other hand, most broken things are left out by design (higher level spells/maneuvers/powers/etc., higher level class abilities, ...).

In practice (if I may add anecdotal evidence), it's vastly more balanced and much harder to break "by accident", which seems more important to me that theoretical OP exercises.

Not at all. The old Fighter, for example, is an EXTREMELY poor choice in E6.

Huh? The Fighter is actually a surprisingly solid choice in E6 (Capstone feat, Dungeoncrasher).

E6 can get pretty wild regarding shifters. If you happen to combine Troll-blooded with Shifter Stamina you are effectively immune to damage for as long as you are shifting (excluding acid & fire).

That trick is not specific to E6. Also, Troll-Blooded is well-known to be an overpowered feat by itself.