Monk/Synthesist build...thoughts and suggestions appreciated

[ursineoddity]

So I started a low level campaign recently, and the DM basically insisted I roll a melee class since the rest of the party is comprised of casters (Magus, Cleric, and Druid) and because I always play a caster. I agreed that it could be fun to do something different, so I decided on a Flowing Monk from Ultimate Combat. He's a half-orc with: str14/dex14/con14/int10/wis16/cha10 (based on a 20 point build) with Dodge and Improved Trip as feats. I play tested him against some orcs and goblins, and his ability to keep multiple opponents on the ground got me excited to play him. Once the campaign started, I found myself fighting flying creatures and centipedes, then zombies who had DR against my unarmed strikes. This is a module, so I know the DM isn't out to get me, but I also know there will be more zombies and ghosts to fight, putting me at a continued disadvantage.

I recently got my hands on Ultimate Magic, and discovered the Synthesist archetype of Summoner. Since I plan on taking Vow of Poverty, this seemed like an ideal way to empower my character without ever having to have any gear or magic items. My DM and I worked out a way for this to make sense within the story, so I chose a Bipedal Eidolon (an idealized self-image of the character) with the Improved Armor and Ability Increase (dex) evolutions. In the future I intend to level him as monk until level 5(1 synthesist/4 monk) to get his ki abilities, then put more levels into summoner. His next feat will be Combat Reflexes, and at level 4 i'll put a point in cha so he can cast those 1st level summoner spells.

I like this build because it makes him a better tank in a basically tankless group, and being capable even without the eidolon gives him versatility. A flowing monk with summoned riding dogs could keep a fair amount of humanoids prone for most of combat. I would have planned his stats differently if I had known I was going to do this from the start, but I still think this is a very playable character.

Thoughts? Comments? Questions?

[SamBurke]

Summoner is the class you don't multi class out of. It's just not going to work. Why? Because EVERYTHING you get in that class is based on your class levels.

That means that your eidolon will be nearly useless at Summoner 2, which comes in on your 6th level by this chart. Sure, it'll be a nice meat sack in front of everyone else... with looooowwwwwww Hit Dice count, though. That means it's going to get killed (or, you're going to drop your own HP down pretty low), and you'll be stuck with: your low-level spells/low-level summons.

Also, a MONK? With a summoner? Monks and Summoners have NO common attributes, except the every-character-attribute of Con. Monks have no use for Charisma, and thus dump it. Summoners have no use for wisdom, and thus dump it. Basically, you'll need at least a 10 in every score except int (Which you'll have to dump big-time) just to make the build viable.

In short: I don't think you should AT ALL. Go multi class out of monk into something else. That works. But not into Summoner. That doesn't.

[Souhiro]

DO NOT TAKE a bipedal Eidolon!!!

You want to be the King in the valley? Take a quadruped eidolon, and just take the "Pounce Evolution". And then, dedicate the rest of your levels to monk

Now you can charge and make full attacks, which means that... yes!!! Finally you did it! You can combine the improved movement of the monk WITH the flurry of blows!

By the text, you even won't need to have "Limbs: Arms" to do your unarmed attacks, since Unarmeds can be easily kicks and headbutts, but I would suggest you to take a pair of arms, to avoid being an extreme munchkin.

Problem?

[grarrrg]

Summoner is the class you don't multi class out of. It's just not going to work. ....

He stated SYNTHESIST Summoner, the one and only Summoner archetype that supports multi-classing.
His physicals stats are replaced, He would only need enough CHA to be able to cast the low level Summoner spells (a 12 Cha would be fine, level-ups or items can get him there easy).
The 'low eidolon' hd is not a problem as they ADD to his existing HD.


Back to the main topic.
See if you can talk you're DM into letting you re-do your point-buy.
Right now your Physicals are 14/14/14. A 1st level Eidolon has (avg) 14/14/13. So you don't really get much for an immediate gain.
Keep your Con as-is, but steal some points from Str/Dex and bump your Wis/Cha up a notch.


Another option to give youself some alternate abilities is to take Ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja)
Ninja Levels stack with Monk levels for Ki Pool total (you do NOT get Wis and Cha to Ki pool, you must choose 1).
You'd also gain Sneak Attack damage, and a lot of Ninja Tricks to choose from.

[ursineoddity]

Thank everyone for their comments so far! I've got a lot to think about before wednesday (when our characters level up).

SamBurke: you do make a lot of good points. i'm seriously reconsidering the synthesist concept, but...

Souhiro: your quadraped concept does offer a lot more, and if i do decide to go with synthesist i will probably go that route. putting points into pounce and improved armor will leave me with a point left for reach, or maybe improved damage: unarmed strike (1d8+2/1d8+2 flurry on a charge sounds good!)

grarrrg: i don't know if he'll let me re-arrange my stats...i feel like i might as well just roll a whole new character at that point. i can bring up the fact that i gave my players the option of re-rolling at level 2 in the campaign i am still running for him (mostly because this is our first pathfinder game, and i wanted everyone to make sure they were having fun with their class). in that case, i will in all likelihood make a halfling or gnome synthesist.

as for the ninja option...that sounds pretty damn good! at 2nd level flowing monks treat any victim of their AoO as flat-footed until the start of their next turn, giving him more opportunities to apply sneak attack damage, and getting a ki pool early on, which can benefit from his Vow of Poverty, is also very attractive.

considering all this, pouncing monk is the best synthesist option, although ninja makes more sense conceptually and works better with his existing ability scores. again, thanks for your insight, and of course i'd still love to hear any other input anyone may have.

[Souhiro]

That depends about what are you thinking to do.

I mean, Flurry of Blows is an EX hability of monks, it isn't subject to the limit to natural attacks. But your GM can say "No way I will allow this, you're pulling this too far!" if your cuadruped Symbiote don't have arms (And know that when you morph, you'll lose your human arms!) Also, you won't be able to grapple nor do most of your maneuver without arms. It's quite a temptation use two EVO points to give yourself Natural Armor and Reach, but skipping arms will surely put you into the munchkin box!

But a GREAT part to your mix are the summoner spells. Now, If you have a pair of rounds to prepare yourself, you can cast Enlarge Person (Monk's BFF), Mage Armor (Second Monk's BFF) or Magic Fang (Third Monk's BFF). All by yourself; you won't have to convince the wizard to enchant your hide! You can even invest some money into wands and scrolls, that you can put to good use.

So, I would put just ONE level to Synthetist, maybe two (for extra Hit Dice, if your Eidolon HP are too low) If you're in a corridor and you're possitive it's full of traps, you can Un-Morph yourself, summon some critters to stomp on the traps, and Morph back, since your critters are basically Riding Dog Mine-Steppers, and Decoy Eagles that will eat AoO from larger enemies.

About going ninja... You're sure to do that? I mean, a centaur-like, enlarged and with mage-armor Death Machine that grinds his enemies with his bare hands won't get many Sneak Attacks! Plus, that will detach from your flurry. Sure, that "Monastic Heritage" feat allow you to increase your unarmed attack, your flurry will be static. and you wanted to Pounce because you wanted to Flurry.


If you're planning to go Ninja nevertheless, and have high CHA, perhaps you'll want to put some ranks into "Use Magical Device", and then, get the Advanced (rogue) Talent: Skill Mastery, that allow you to take 10 when you're using UMD (You cannot do it, otherwise) so... hello hello, wands & staves! (DC: 20 to use. 5 Ranks, plus 3 per Class Skill, and almost 2 from your Cha + Taking 10 = I'm a wizard!)

Yeah, I know.... but "I'm a wizard!" sounds funnier than "I'm a curseless Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge!"


PS: Sorry for my awful grammar. Yo hablo español.

[panaikhan]

Quadruped Eidolons can have grapple as a 'free' addon with Grab.
The Eidolon's Grab can get pretty silly - if you have Rake, you get an additional two attacks PER SUCCESSFUL GRAPPLE.

Quadruped - two lots of limbs (legs). Buy claws for both, pounce, grab, rake.
(thinking - DM may make you select legs an additional time)
That's 4 attacks, with a possible additional 8 attacks if your CMB is good enough.

[grarrrg]

So, I would put just ONE level to Synthetist, maybe two (for extra Hit Dice, if your Eidolon HP are too low)....

About going ninja... You're sure to do that? I mean, a centaur-like, enlarged and with mage-armor Death Machine that grinds his enemies with his bare hands won't get many Sneak Attacks.....

1 level of Synthesist is HORRENDOUS for a high level (martial) build, due to the Physical Score replacement. They do NOT grow on their own, and you have very few options to improve them. If he went Monk 19/Sum 1 he'd still only have 14 Str 14 Dex 13 Con.
Synthesist may be the most Multi-class friendly Summoner, but it still requires some investment.

Although... Dipping just 1 level of Summoner (regardless of archetype) opens up the Dragon Disciple PrC.
Four levels of that would get him +3 Bab, +4 Str, +2 Nat armor and a handful of other goodies.


As far as Ninja goes, the idea is to take Ninja OR Synthesist, not both.

[Dyllan]

Yes, his physical stats will cap if he takes 1 level of summoner... but that just means he pumps his Wisdom.

Get an amulet of mighty fists with the guided weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) enchantment on them (+1 enchantment, lets you use wisdom instead of strength for attack and damage), as soon as you can. Get Dex/Con belts eventually to help with those stats.

Also if your DM says your unarmed strikes are both natural and manufactured weapons, and therefore are subject to the "max natural attacks" limitation, pick up brass knuckles (you might need the guided weapon enchantment on these too). Now they're clearly manufactured weapons, but you still use your unarmed damage. Of course, you'll have to take the limbs evolution. But your pounce can include your full flurry plus bite (as a secondary attack, since you're combining it with manufactured attacks).

Still want natural armor? Take the extra evolution feat. It becomes 2 natural armor for 1 feat... good deal. Of course, you could also use that point for pincers, so you get two more secondary attacks on your pounce, or for reach (although you'd only get this on your flurry OR your bite).

You can pounce, make all your flurry attacks, and add in your bite and possibly pincers. And you can use your highest stat (wisdom) for all your attack and damage rolls.

Edit: This character's attack routine at level 2 (with no gear and magic fang):
Pounce (charging), Flurry + natural attacks: unarmed +4/+4 (1d6+3), bite +1 (1d6+3), pincers +1/+1 (1d6+3). Not bad for level 2 with no gear.

[grarrrg]

....Of course, you could also use that point for pincers, so you get two more secondary attacks on your pounce, or for reach (although you'd only get this on your flurry OR your bite).


Assuming 1 level of Summoner then I agree with the Guided Weapon Amulet.
Assuming >1 levels of Summoner, then Guided should not be needed.

I don't know if you 'can' add Pincers to an Arm and still make Unarmed Strikes with that Arm. (this would be one of those Synthesist Rules Gray Areas)

Elsewise, a Quad's existing Legs can support 1-Claws (2 attacks), and 1-Hooves (2 attacks), and 1-Rake (2 attacks on a Grapple, only counts as 1 attack for Nat-Attack-Limit)

[Dyllan]

You're entirely right, Grarrg - I didn't look at pincers closely enough, and thought they could be put on legs.

So yes, you'd want to go with claws or hooves, dropping those dice from 1d6 to 1d4.

Still, pretty cool.

[Tokuhara]

So wait... You're going to be a monk in a powersuit?

[Souhiro]

The main thing is that a monk deals his super-damage with unarmed attacks and a pincer is a natural weapon, And a secondary one, IIRC, so you coudn't flurry with pincers, and you couldn't use Unarmed Bonus with Pincers!. The Monk in the SuperSuit thing is that he could use flurry and unarmed.

[Dyllan]

The main thing is that a monk deals his super-damage with unarmed attacks and a pincer is a natural weapon, And a secondary one, IIRC, so you coudn't flurry with pincers, and you couldn't use Unarmed Bonus with Pincers!. The Monk in the SuperSuit thing is that he could use flurry and unarmed.

True, but since you have natural attacks, you may as well use them. They don't hinder your normal attacks, so it's just bonus damage.

[Souhiro]

You know, the sad part of being a monk is that you'll have a hard time actually hitting something, since they have a 3/4 BAB progression, but are a "Melee, First Line" class. In Pathfinder, that was avoided, because their flurry allows them to use their monk level as BAB, but only when using the flurry of blows . And as Treantmonk said "Always use the flurry. ALWAYS".

Using pincers will force him to use his true BAB, albeit at a -4 because those are secondary weapons. Plus, you can use Weapon Focus: Unarmed, and that will improve your punches, kicks, headbutts and of course, flurries, but you cannot take Weapon Focus: Natural Weapon, you'll have to take one for Pincers, another for claws...

And whatever Sean K. Reinolds (http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfinderCompanion/v5748btpy8dmf/discuss&page=12#550) wants to say, GMs always has houseruled brass knukles, bandages to the hands, and so, to allow monks to get a way to bypass damage reduction, without dramatically reducing their unarmeds (To use a 1D6 cold iron nunchaku, or use a 2D8 unarmed?)

[Souhiro]

Hey! How did your character ended?

Jokinly, some friends of mine call this build "The Power Ranger": A Monk who fights ebarefoot or with some exotic weapons, but then, he cas say "It's morphing time!" (In high levels, he can even split and get a Zord!)

[Wings of Peace]

If it's a Synthesist Summoner then you can dump your physical stats as they'll be replaced by your Eidolon's. Gives you a nice rp reason for becoming a Synthesist too, that being to overcome your own innate weakness.