A Philosophical Question

[Dumbledore lives]

I first want to say this is entirely philosophical, and would like to avoid religious discussion of any kind.

With that said I wondered on a personal level if you were given the choice to know the exact date and time of your death, but not the method would you do it? Assume you just cosmically have this choice, and whether or not you know when it will happen, the sand will run out and you will be forced to depart the earth. If you have a reason I'd also like to hear it. Let's also assume this does not give you immortality until this date, and doing things that would get you killed would simply put you in a coma or something until that date and time.

Personally I wouldn't want to, because some things are better left unknown, and if it was at a young age I would feel terrible, and hate myself for knowing, and if it was old I would still feel disappointed because that is how long I would live, no longer and no shorter.

[Moonshadow]

I would be okay with this, I think. If I knew the exact time and date of my death, I think I would feel better about doing potentially risky things that I would not normally do out of fear of death.

[llamamushroom]

I wouldn't, mostly because that just sounds... wrong, somehow. Something man was not meant to wot of, style of thing.

Then again, there are arguments for it, summed up in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfSDZ2BzPrA).

Note: that is not a real ad. It's from a TV show about advertising, and the agency was asked to advertise the impossible - compulsory euthanasia at 80 - to show how it could be done. It's relevant, though.

[polity4life]

I would want to know.

Why? Having knowledge that puts absolute finality to my life would put everything in perspective. I certainly would not waste another minute doing frivolous activities. Instead, I would likely want to make any form of impact, no matter how small or large, upon my community and hopefully society at large. I would devote myself entirely to doing something with meaning.

Could I do that now: Without a doubt. However, there is a nigh permanent cognitive dissonance between my life and my death. The only point where I could possibly reconcile this is on my death bed or through some ephiphanic moment.

[Liffguard]

Hmmm, I'd probably say no. I know I'm going to die and I don't think I'd get any utility from knowing when. I'd also like to think I'm the kind of person who can live his life to the full even without that certain finality.

I'm reminded of a moment from the Sandman comics when a 15,000 year old man has just been crushed by falling bricks in a freak accident. Death comes to take him away and he remarks that he had a pretty good run, didn't he? I mean, 15,000 years is pretty good. And Death calmly remarks that he got exactly the same as everyone else. He got a lifetime. No more, no less.

Also, to the OP. You haven't just watched In Time by any chance have you?

[Cespenar]

I don't need to know it, but perhaps I might be tempted to know simply to find out if I could have coped with it or not.

[Maralais]

I'd say yes, as the fear of having undone work by the time I am dead is haunting me quite a lot lately, and knowing when I'd die would give me the ability to plan the things I want to do and say beforehand.

[Frozen_Feet]

Depends; am I allowed a preliminary question? Before making the final decision, I'd like to know if my death is more or less than fifty years away. If the answer is "more", then I couldn't care less - it's beyond my ability to plan out a life that far. If the answer is "less", then I'd swallow my disappointment and hear the verdict - this, because then it might become relevant to how I'm living my life right now.

[thubby]

yes.

besides the fact that i'm annoying to no end by not knowing stuff. having any certainty in the world is rare enough to be worth getting.

[Valameer]

Yes, I would like to know.

It would help me greatly in maximizing long-term investments, and when I should plan to retire.

Plus if my number was very soon, I'd like to create a video log of me for my daughter.

[shawnhcorey]

Wu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29). My philosophy states that the future is impossible to predict.

[Maxios]

There are things mankind was not meant to know, and the date/time of their death is one of them. If an average man is told this information, he will spend the rest of his life either hiding in fear or trying to prevent his demise; wasting his life in the process.

[Cypress_Bright]

No. There's two schools of thought on this, and I don't like either.

Either you'll be able to see it and change things, or you won't.

In the first case, it's useless. You change everything and the vision is no longer valid.

In the last case, you cause the end of your life by virtue of seeing it. Your actions to prevent it will ensure that it happens.

[Telonius]

Yes. I'd immediately go to Vegas and place a bet on the exact time of my demise, winnings payable to my heirs.

Besides, I like working on a deadline, and it would be nice to know how long I have to finish writing those books.

[Frozen_Feet]

No. There's two schools of thought on this, and I don't like either.

Phooey. There's at least one more: the date of your death is set, period, no matter what you do. It's wholly set in stone, so there is no point whatsoever actively trying to prevent it. Instead, you can focus on everything else.

What's important is what you do with the time you have, since your actions are not set, at least to your knowledge. There are potentially all sorts of benefits to knowing your life expectancy, which increase the closer your time of death is to now. (Since plannig on shorter timeframes is easier.)

[Cypress_Bright]

Phooey. There's at least one more: the date of your death is set, period, no matter what you do. It's wholly set in stone, so there is no point whatsoever actively trying to prevent it. Instead, you can focus on everything else.

What's important is what you do with the time you have, since your actions are not set, at least to your knowledge. There are potentially all sorts of benefits to knowing your life expectancy, which increase the closer your time of death is to now. (Since plannig on shorter timeframes is easier.)

I suppose so, although that tends to render free will a moot point.

[Frozen_Feet]

Not having a choice in one matter doesn't necessarily mean you don't have any choices. Free will is not a simple on/off switch that gets toggled based on singular events.

[factotum]

I wouldn't see the point, to be honest...knowing exactly when you'll die, with no idea how it'll happen and no means of attempting to avert it? Quite apart from the knowledge that the fact you know this effectively denies free will, because the only way the exact date of your death can be predicted is if you (and everyone else on the planet) has no control over what they're doing! Frankly, if I'm going to learn I have no free will because predicting the future is possible, I'd rather the prediction be a bit more useful than the exact date and time of my death.

[Lord Raziere]

Nope. I like uncertainty in my life.

[Kallisti]

I'm reminded of a moment from the Sandman comics when a 15,000 year old man has just been crushed by falling bricks in a freak accident. Death comes to take him away and he remarks that he had a pretty good run, didn't he? I mean, 15,000 years is pretty good. And Death calmly remarks that he got exactly the same as everyone else. He got a lifetime. No more, no less.

I could be recalling this totally wrong, but as I remember it 'You get what everyone gets--you get a lifetime' was Death's comment to an infant who died in the cradle; I can't recall if she also said it to that man--I do remember that moment.

Also, his last words, assuming we're thinking of the same nigh-immortal man being killed by falling bricks in a freak accident (it's Sandman, so it's entirely possible we're not) were 'Not yet!'.


Back on topic: leaving aside the free-will question (since we haven't got enough information on how exactly this whole thing is going to work to figure out if it really does necessarily support a wholly deterministic worldview), I'd say yes. Having that knowledge would probably be of great use to me in my ongoing struggle to stop being lazy and start doing something worthwhile with my time.

(Plus, I'd get to find out of science will make any major progress on life-extension in a time frame that'll matter to me, which'd be relevant in deciding what I want to do with my life.)

[Whiffet]

I'd rather not know. I guess if it was actually possible I would be curious, but I'd go nuts trying to make sense of the whole thing. Suppose I never found out when I'm supposed to die. Some time later, I'm driving to a doctor appointment and I'm late, and I'm approaching a stoplight. As I'm getting close, the light turns yellow. I want to get through the light quickly, so do I go for it? I can tell that I'll be running a red light if I keep going, and I know that I can stop safely without the risk of being rear-ended or being unable to stop until partway in the intersection. On the other hand, I'm late. I don't know it, but a driver just coming from my left noticed the light turning green as he was about to stop, so instead he speeds up to get through the intersection quickly. If I decide to go for it, he hits me and I die.

Suppose I found out I was supposed to die that day. I don't want to, so I decided to not do anything risky that day. I would keep that decision on my mind all day and I wouldn't just happen to forget at that light; that's how my brain works. Does the universe bend over backwards to find some other way to kill me? Does stopping at the light cause lightning to come from nowhere and strike me? Do my brakes inexplicably fail? Does my heart just stop beating without something causing it? There has to be a reason for my death besides "I was supposed to die that day". Effects need causes.

[factotum]

Back on topic: leaving aside the free-will question (since we haven't got enough information on how exactly this whole thing is going to work to figure out if it really does necessarily support a wholly deterministic worldview)

The only other possible interpretation is, IMHO, that the universe goes all Final Destination on you to make darned sure you die at the appropriate moment, which just seems a bit bonkers...

[Maralais]

I'd rather not know. I guess if it was actually possible I would be curious, but I'd go nuts trying to make sense of the whole thing. Suppose I never found out when I'm supposed to die. Some time later, I'm driving to a doctor appointment and I'm late, and I'm approaching a stoplight. As I'm getting close, the light turns yellow. I want to get through the light quickly, so do I go for it? I can tell that I'll be running a red light if I keep going, and I know that I can stop safely without the risk of being rear-ended or being unable to stop until partway in the intersection. On the other hand, I'm late. I don't know it, but a driver just coming from my left noticed the light turning green as he was about to stop, so instead he speeds up to get through the intersection quickly. If I decide to go for it, he hits me and I die.

Suppose I found out I was supposed to die that day. I don't want to, so I decided to not do anything risky that day. I would keep that decision on my mind all day and I wouldn't just happen to forget at that light; that's how my brain works. Does the universe bend over backwards to find some other way to kill me? Does stopping at the light cause lightning to come from nowhere and strike me? Do my brakes inexplicably fail? Does my heart just stop beating without something causing it? There has to be a reason for my death besides "I was supposed to die that day". Effects need causes.

This argument of yours rests on the premise that you are able to change the way things are by knowing how they will turn out. But I interpreted that part of the question as "knowing it will never be useful as that result already covered a possibility where you already knew when you'd die"(so you did not change anything in the flow of time), which would mean the universe doesn't need to go Final Destination on you, you'll probably make it a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.

[Frozen_Feet]

... or the effect works like a Death Note, and if nothing else kills you, you mysteriously die of a heart attack. :smalltongue:

You people are way too hung up on "not wanting to die" or "changing fate". The simplest solution still is to take the knowledge at face value and keep living your life.

Talking about free will is pointless, as a singular inevitability is not enough to negate your freedom in all other matters. Just knowing your date of death is not enough to draw far-reaching conclusions of fate or determinism of the universe, so don't even bother.

[Asta Kask]

I would be okay with this, I think. If I knew the exact time and date of my death, I think I would feel better about doing potentially risky things that I would not normally do out of fear of death.

You could still be crushed to a broken, suffering shell of yourself though. No, I wouldn't want to know it. It feels wrong.

[Dumbledore lives]

I figured I'd tally up the results just for fun. It's a lot more divided than I thought it would be initially, but I guess that's just because everyone has different opinions on these sorts of things.

{table=head] | Tally
Yes | 9
No | 9
[/table]

[Anxe]

I'd like to know because then I would have a deadline for all the projects I want to finish before I die.

[Eloel]

I wouldn't want to know. I like living like I'll live forever - given that I'll not care about what I've done after I die, it doesn't bother me that I might have unfinished projects when I do actually die.

[Mikhailangelo]

If I knew the exact date and time, I'd instantly kill myself, because hell yeah temporal paradox.

If the universe anticipated this, I would not instantly kill myself, because hell year temporal paradox

[Tebryn]

I suppose so, although that tends to render free will a moot point.

You have to demonstrate that Free Will is a thing for that to really matter don't you?

[Mando Knight]

Do I want to know? Yes. Do I think that we should not be allowed to know these things? Also yes. Does the fact that it is forbidden knowledge make it all the more tempting? Yes.

[pendell]

I would prefer to know. I could then plan around the fact. For example, I'm 40 years old right now. If I knew I would die at 42, I wouldn't waste a lot of time on the 401K and spend as much as I could preparing my family for separation. Likewise, if I knew I would die at 80, I could plan out the course of my life accordingly.

Be that as it may, if human free will means anything I'm not sure the question could definitively be answered beyond a shadow of a doubt. So I'm scheduled to die at 80. So what if I deliberately jump off the grand canyon tomorrow?

So it seems to me that, if human free will has meaning, then foretelling or prophecy can only show a possible future. It can only show what will happen if you take or don't take a certain action. The mere fact of coming back and telling a person the future may be sufficient to altar the timeline.

Besides, I'd still take any future knowledge with a grain of salt. After all, it may be that the person giving you the prediction is, quite simply, wrong.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Epic]

Personally I wouldn't want to, because some things are better left unknown, and if it was at a young age I would feel terrible, and hate myself for knowing, and if it was old I would still feel disappointed because that is how long I would live, no longer and no shorter.

That's the thing, according to your description, it would still be a surprise. You don't know the method. And with everything else given, you could plan accordingly.

Personally, I'd go for it.

And out of curiosity, do I have to trade one of my eyes to get this ability? (If you get this reference, you are awesome!)

[Whiffet]

This argument of yours rests on the premise that you are able to change the way things are by knowing how they will turn out. But I interpreted that part of the question as "knowing it will never be useful as that result already covered a possibility where you already knew when you'd die"(so you did not change anything in the flow of time), which would mean the universe doesn't need to go Final Destination on you, you'll probably make it a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.

Avoidable deaths happen all the time. Surely some people who find out about their time of death were going to have an avoidable one. Finding out would change their behavior, and sometimes the result taking that into account won't make sense.

I see it this way: if I don't find out at all, I die in a car crash tomorrow because I was reckless.

If I do find out and knowing means I'm cautious that day and live another 40 years, what is the result? I'm only told my time of death; I can't be told "You were going to die tomorrow, but if knowing that causes you to avoid it you die in 40 years." It can't tell me I die tomorrow because taking what it told me into account, I avoid it. It can't tell me I die in 40 years because then I don't know about tomorrow.

Basically, I wouldn't want to know because I'm the sort of person who would go crazy trying to figure out possible paradoxes. "I die in seven hundred thirty-two days, but does knowing that change what happens? Or does knowing that kill me? Was there something that was supposed to kill me that won't because I know to be careful? Am I just going to have a heart attack out of nowhere because the universe decided I need to die?" And then I'll go insane trying to work it out.

Freaking paradoxes, man. I go nuts trying to work out fictional ones; a real one would stick in my head for way too long. That would suck. :smalltongue:

[Maralais]

That's the thing, according to your description, it would still be a surprise. You don't know the method. And with everything else given, you could plan accordingly.

Personally, I'd go for it.

And out of curiosity, do I have to trade one of my eyes to get this ability? (If you get this reference, you are awesome!)

Big Fish? I thought about it when I first saw the thread as well.

@Whiffet, I doubt people could avoid their avoidable deaths, as they wouldn't know the way they were going to die, and they couldn't prepare for all, even if they did their best.

Let us imagine a man who knows that his death will happen on his 40th birthday. There can be many occasions for his death to occur, even after many precautions like not being able to wake up at all due to a medical problem being killed in sleep etc.

The thing about this proposal is that it accepts that you are powerless in changing your time of death(in other words, you cannot change your fate, no man can[cookies to those who get the reference]), because as you pointed out, having the power to change it would cause paradoxes. Unless we can propose a world where life's not determinative and yet something like time of death cannot be changed.

In other words, no need to drive yourself mad by looking for paradoxes, there is none.:smalltongue:

@Dr. Epic, at least I tried.

[Dr.Epic]

Big Fish? I thought about it when I first saw the thread as well.

Nope. Older than that.

[THAC0]

Hm. I'm pretty good at living my life to the fullest, but I'd like to know if I need to be saving for retirement or not. I could be doing a lot more if I didn't...

[factotum]

Nope. Older than that.

I believe you would be referring to the awesome feast of cheesiness that is "Krull"...do I get a prize now? :smallwink:

[enderlord99]

And out of curiosity, do I have to trade one of my eyes to get this ability? (If you get this reference, you are awesome!)

The Magic: the Gathering card known as cyclopean mummy?

[Dr.Epic]

I believe you would be referring to the awesome feast of cheesiness that is "Krull"...do I get a prize now? :smallwink:

Yep. Oh, and you comment about how cheesy Krull is, Krull is completely serious when compared to the movie Legend.

[enderlord99]

Yep. Oh, and you comment about how cheesy Krull is, Krull is completely serious when compared to the movie Legend.

But... but... Mine works too... (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1433):smallfrown:

[Tonal Architect]

Interesting thread. So far has emcompassed themes such as the morality of knowledge, and how omniscience affects the supposed state of free will.

Personally? I'd go for it. I see no reason not to, there seems to be no downsides in knowing.

Besides, assuming that the time of one's death is indeed cast in stone, this means that one has just acquired a form of makeshift immortality, much like in the Groundhog Day Loop scenario proposed in another thread.

Sure, if one is to really go postal, nothing is keeping the current authorities from inviting a person to go cool her heels in death roll for a couple of decades, and depending on just how much you abuse your physical limits, you're likely to end up a vegetal stuck in a comatose state in some hospital bed, but still, assuming the date of one's demise is indeed beyond changing... You're nearly immortal before that. All kinds of adventures are available. You've just managed to seriously optimize your real world self, go take that chassis around for a spin.

Assuming the date of one's demise is possible to change, though... Knowing or not knowing becomes irrelevant, as so does the knowledge itself.

[Anxe]

Yep. Oh, and you comment about how cheesy Krull is, Krull is completely serious when compared to the movie Legend.

I was thinking Odin.

[factotum]

But... but... Mine works too... (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1433):smallfrown:

4th Edition M:tG was, what, 1996 or thereabouts? Krull came out in 1983, so it predates the Mummy by some time...in fact, they might even have based the flavour text on the card on the film!

Although Odin fits rather well too, and he's got precedence by a thousand years or so... :smallsmile:

[Winter_Wolf]

Knowing the time and date but not the cause of my death? No, thanks. If I can't know the cause, then the other two things really don't matter to me. I could just see myself getting completely blindsided by some ridiculous scenario while the obvious thing that should be what causes my death ends up having nothing to do with it: e.g. I run into a mean ol' grizzly bear while on a hike in the boonies, but I die because a piece of debris falls from the clear blue sky and strikes me dead. :smallannoyed: That just ain't right.

That being said, I already know how I want to die, and eventually I'm sure I'll maneuver myself into such a position that it's the most likely outcome. My preferred death has nothing to do with bears in any way shape or form. :smalltongue:

Also, self fulfilling prophecy springs to mind any time I hear talk about the future. For all anyone knows, if people were to know the exact time and date of their death, or even be convinced that they knew, they might just lay down and die on the spot, or throw themselves under a bus, or jump off a cliff, and the list goes on. I've seen stranger things before. People are crazy.

[Liffguard]

Also, self fulfilling prophecy springs to mind any time I hear talk about the future. For all anyone knows, if people were to know the exact time and date of their death, or even be convinced that they knew, they might just lay down and die on the spot, or throw themselves under a bus, or jump off a cliff, and the list goes on. I've seen stranger things before. People are crazy.

Reminds of the episode of Red Dwarf where they find a prescient computer and one of the red shirts dies after being told "you will die of a heart attack brought on by the shock of being told you're going to die of a heart attack."

[Mx.Silver]

Yeah, I mean there's not really a downside. Plus you could actually get a 'last day on earth' situation, which allows for wacky hijinks.


Knowing the time and date but not the cause of my death? No, thanks. If I can't know the cause, then the other two things really don't matter to me. I could just see myself getting completely blindsided by some ridiculous scenario while the obvious thing that should be what causes my death ends up having nothing to do with it: e.g. I run into a mean ol' grizzly bear while on a hike in the boonies, but I die because a piece of debris falls from the clear blue sky and strikes me dead. :smallannoyed: That just ain't right.
But that can happen right now. How is knowing when it's going to happen affecting whether or not it's 'right'?



Also, self fulfilling prophecy springs to mind any time I hear talk about the future. For all anyone knows, if people were to know the exact time and date of their death, or even be convinced that they knew, they might just lay down and die on the spot
Last time I checked humans don't have the ability to just 'lay down and die' at will, as it were. Otherwise the rate of violent suicide would be a good deal lower.
I'm not sure about the suicide thing either, the survival instinct being a very deeply ingrained aspect of the human psyche. You might get a few yeah, but you'd probably get more, if not most people, who stuck around in the hope that the prediction was wrong (assuming they ever fully committed to it in the first place).

[factotum]

Yeah, I mean there's not really a downside. Plus you could actually get a 'last day on earth' situation, which allows for wacky hijinks.

You might also be told you're going to die in 37 minutes. Would that really benefit you?

[drakeae]

id say i would like to know so i could see my life from a diffident prospective seeing that there is a set end date to improve my life before its over. knowing when the play of life is over so to say instead not knowing and leaving so much unfinished thing.

[Mx.Silver]

You might also be told you're going to die in 37 minutes. Would that really benefit you?
It's still enough time to try and strike a pose, so yeah :smalltongue:

[Maralais]

You might also be told you're going to die in 37 minutes. Would that really benefit you?

An immediate call to the friends is the first thing that came to my mind, it'd be certainly better than realising I was gonna die in a few seconds when before I was just minding my business.