????????/Apostle of Peace

[Garetek]

Greetings My Fellows and Ladies.

I was going through my books, well the case that has all my books in it, and I came across the BoED, normally I don't ever use it, but I figures I can look through it while I dust it, and see if anything looks cool.

Having played a dedicated healer before, while randomly flipping about I came across the Apostle of Peace PRC. Looks pretty cool, stand back buff the allies, and be really really hard to hit due to the vows.

Sounds cool. Sign me up.. How ever I cannnot figure out what would be best from the healers mindset to take as my base levels before jumping into this one.

Any thoughts?

Sincerely,
Garetek

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Healing can be done via a wand. That said, Bard has some juiciness via bardic music feats and the like when applied to Apostle of Peace.

[Axier]

My favorite thing about Apostle of Peace is that it requires a vow of Poverty, but has a clause that allows you to wear magical items that protect you. This can skyrocket your AC and magical defenses.

[Psyren]

Work out with your DM what "protect you" means, as it's pretty vague. (e.g. items that let you fly, teleport or even summon aid could be said to be "protecting you.")

And get the holy symbol issue fixed so you can actually cast.

The biggest problem with the class is Vow of Peace, which forces you into being the party nanny. Make sure your group is mature and willing to tolerate that.

[Medic!]

I'm away from my books at the moment, but how would the Healer (puts on heckle-proof vest) from the miniatures handbook match up with your character concept?

EDIT: Psyren makes THE point, make sure everyone's on board with the vow of peace. I played a poverty/non-violence/peace beguiler once, with the party's agreement. As soon as the bloodthirsty group of barbarians found out how it worked functionally, I ended up taking Vow of Resurrection Refusal =\

[Pilo]

Half-elf Bard with the substitution level from Race of destiny that allows you to use your bardic music ability to generate an effect similar to calm emotion which DD for the save is a perform check you make.

Bard have the class skill you need, some spell that can allow you to do things without breaking your vows, even while fighting.

[Person_Man]

Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X is a fun build (assuming that you're playing with a very mature group willing to observe the constraints of your Vow of Non-Violence).

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill, such as Paladin (Saves), Bard (Music), Incarnate (Skill buffs), and/or anything with a good Skill list.

Knight 4 gives you Test of Mettle.

The required Vow of Peace -> Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your Cha based abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), and makes weapons break against you.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isn’t effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, Demoralize, or the many spells at your disposal.

[Psyren]

You'll want to be a caster to enter it, as your AoP caster level is partially dependent on your CL prior to entry. You'll also want something to PrC into after you take it, because it gets no class features after AoP for (and honestly, Censure Fiends isn't that great, so make it 2 levels long instead.)

My personal recommendation for it is Warlock. You get the will save and skills you need, you'll always have something to do in combat with the right invocations (or just UMD something in combat via Deceive Item), and you can PrC into Eldritch Disciple (CM) for 9ths, Darks, and class features that matter.

This is especially true since you apparently love healing - convert your turning attempts into Healing Blasts and zap the party with warm fuzzy lasers. You can even spring for Zen Archery so you don't need Dex to aim them.

Basic build would be Warlock 7/AoP 2/ED 10; Warlock 7 is a terrible breakpoint though, so feel free to slip in other dips like Mindbender.



EDIT: Psyren makes THE point, make sure everyone's on board with the vow of peace. I played a poverty/non-violence/peace beguiler once, with the party's agreement. As soon as the bloodthirsty group of barbarians found out how it worked functionally, I ended up taking Vow of Resurrection Refusal =\

For Beguiler, I would stick with Non-Violence. Nearly all your offensive spells get stronger, and you aren't punished as much for the party's actions, nor are you as open to DM-screw e.g. swallowing flies.

Peace has powerful benefits but isn't worth the hassle imho.

EDIT: I do like the Knight build above, however (though it makes you a bit MAD.)

[dspeyer]

I've always figured beguiler (and then keep it going with mystic theurge). Since you won't be hitting your enemies, surely you want to confuse them, and the +4 from VoNV adds nicely there.

It occurs to me now that a psion(telepath) might be able to do the same trick better, since so many of the mind-effect powers are low level with augments (so a practiced manifester can do them as well as a single-classed character).

[Tokuhara]

Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X is a fun build (assuming that you're playing with a very mature group willing to observe the constraints of your Vow of Non-Violence).

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill, such as Paladin (Saves), Bard (Music), Incarnate (Skill buffs), and/or anything with a good Skill list.

Knight 4 gives you Test of Mettle.

The required Vow of Peace -> Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your Cha based abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), and makes weapons break against you.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isn’t effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, Demoralize, or the many spells at your disposal.

Saint Bertold

Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X

I like Paladin for this Personally, especially the Feat variant and Contemplative 1/Sovereign Speaker 5/Sentinel of Bharrai. Yes, Sovereign Speaker reduces your casting. So what? You lose 1 level of Apostle of Peace. Still means 9th level Spells, 6 Domains, and can take the form of a bear and some decent abilities. Plus, the image of a golden bear that casts spells and has weapons snapping off of him. Talk to your DM about giving you the Saint Template for being Saintly (exalted character afterall...), and get benefits for being a saintly mofo

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler in PH2 works perfectly with Vow of Peace/Nonviolence, and after Apostle of Peace 2 you can take Mystic Theurge.

[lorddrake]

I ended up taking Vow of Resurrection Refusal =\

Wow! Can I sig that out of context?

[Tenebris]

1) Standard build:
Sorcerer 7/ AoP 2/ Mystic Theurge 10 / Sorcerer 1

This a really strong build, IMHO. IIRC, Vow of Nonviolence boost your DC's by 4, so this will make you excellent disabler (hold person, charm)... Even a blaster via nonlethal substitution.

EDIT: Previously I've suggested levels of wizard in this build, but:
A) no spellbooks (can be easily fixed with Eidetic Wizard though),
B) can't figure how to make diplomacy a class skill (sorcerer just picks appropriate Draconic Heritage).



2) If Tashalatora is allowed, then:
Ardent 7/ AoP 2/ Psychic Theurge 10 / Ardent 1

Personally, I like this one more. Somehow the idea of butt-kicking pacifist is appealing to me. Less powerful though.



3) If you can pull this off, try to modify previous idea with:
Ardent 7/ AoP 1/ Contemplative 1 / Psychic Theurge 10 / Ardent 1

Where the bonus domain would be competition (or war), so you can cast Divine Power.

[Hirax]

Just to be different:
bard8/apostle2/sublime chord2/theurge8

[dextercorvia]

Capping off the build with three levels of Wonderworker will get you 7 extra spells of 8th-9th level.

[lunar2]

well, i don't know what books you have, but if you have complete arcane and the core books, i would go:

bard 7 (i think it was 7 to meet the reqs)/ Apostle of Peace 3/ Mystic Theurge 10. practiced spell caster on bard and AoP.

practiced spell caster grants you a +4 to caster level for everything not related to spells per day, but doesn't take your caster level above your HD. however, Practiced spellcaster is always applied in the order that would be most beneficial to you, so it gets applied BEFORE prestige classes.

@lv. 20, you cast spells as a 17th lv. bard, but your caster level is actually 21.

Apostle of Peace's caster level gains a bonus = to 1/2 all your other caster levels. you have AoP 3 + 10 from mystic theurge + 4 from practiced spellcaster + 10 from bard giving you a total caster level of 27.

Practiced spellcaster may seem a little cheesy, but i should mention that a FAQ in dragon magazine (don't remember which issue) does state that practiced spellcaster works that way, so it's both RAW and RAI.

some real cheese for this class is Spell Penetration. spell penetration adds 2 to your CL for the purpose of overcoming SR. you could argue that the +2 it adds to bard also adds an additional +1 to AoP for this purpose, making the feat 1/2 again as powerful.

[Psyren]

Just to note lunar, Practiced Spellcaster only applies to one class at a time. You would have to take it twice to get +4 CL to both AoP and Bard. (Which you explicitly can do so there's no problem.)

[dextercorvia]

well, i don't know what books you have, but if you have complete arcane and the core books, i would go:

bard 7 (i think it was 7 to meet the reqs)/ Apostle of Peace 3/ Mystic Theurge 10. practiced spell caster on bard and AoP.

practiced spell caster grants you a +4 to caster level for everything not related to spells per day, but doesn't take your caster level above your HD. however, Practiced spellcaster is always applied in the order that would be most beneficial to you, so it gets applied BEFORE prestige classes.

@lv. 20, you cast spells as a 17th lv. bard, but your caster level is actually 21.

Apostle of Peace's caster level gains a bonus = to 1/2 all your other caster levels. you have AoP 3 + 10 from mystic theurge + 4 from practiced spellcaster + 10 from bard giving you a total caster level of 27.

Practiced spellcaster may seem a little cheesy, but i should mention that a FAQ in dragon magazine (don't remember which issue) does state that practiced spellcaster works that way, so it's both RAW and RAI.

some real cheese for this class is Spell Penetration. spell penetration adds 2 to your CL for the purpose of overcoming SR. you could argue that the +2 it adds to bard also adds an additional +1 to AoP for this purpose, making the feat 1/2 again as powerful.

Bolded is incorrect. CasterX/FullcastingPRCY is treated as Caster(X+Y) to determine CL. Only then may you start adding in CL boosts and penalties in the most beneficial order.

[lunar2]

so, it would be bard 20, and Aop 3 + Mystic Theurge 10 + P. spell caster 4 + 1/2 other Cl 10, or would P. spell caster be useless for the AoP side?

and I knew you needed P. spellcaster twice for this, I just didn't feel like going through all the details for the feats.

anyway, your AoP CL will be either 23 or 27 at level 20, depending on where P. spell caster goes. probably best just not to try it on the AoP side, since it looks a bit cheesier now. but, you'll still have 2 casters at full Cl or better to load up buffs and debuffs with.

[Garetek]

So while looking over the books and seeing what you all are saying. By taking the vows, I would really sit back, and be a buffer/ healer for the group. Provided that we do not go around murdering the innocents, then we would be good, We have no rogue in the party that runs around backstabbing people that are asleep.

Party is
Half Dragon Monk
Me-TBD
Human Wizard
and......

A warlock I think..

So we are pretty up front and like 'Hey, here we are. Come kill us or die trying' Kinda group.

[Makiru]

A build I've been toying with for a while is Monk 2/Favored Soul X/AoP 10. I suppose Knight 4 could be fit in there as well for Test of Mettle. The idea is to really buff up Diplomacy and unarmed strike/grappling. Take Kord as your deity and challenge people to knockout brawls after they break their weapons against your face. Spells would be geared more to buff/debuff with some swift/immediate healing/Vigor to stay up. Now, you can't be expected to keep everybody in line while focusing on that one guy, so there's a little bit of leeway you can insert into the vows (not much, but enough to work with). Have one of the other party members buy rope and shackles with your share of the loot and you're good to go; the rope can even function as an impromptu wrestling ring, if you want. :smallsmile:

[TheRinni]

Well, the only time I've played this class, I used Favored Soul. The nice, high saves added to my invincible factor. I also adore spontaneous spellcasting, so it was a really nice fit for me. Be warned, however, things did become slightly confused when I had to keep track of both my Favored Soul's spells known, and my Apostle's spells prepared.

[Psyren]

So while looking over the books and seeing what you all are saying. By taking the vows, I would really sit back, and be a buffer/ healer for the group. Provided that we do not go around murdering the innocents, then we would be good, We have no rogue in the party that runs around backstabbing people that are asleep.

You misunderstand. Vow of Peace doesn't say "don't kill innocents." It says "don't kill anybody!" Only undead and constructs are exempt.

The kobolds peppering you with crossbow bolts?
The bugbears that ambush your camp in the middle of the night?
The cutthroats in the dark alley?
The evil cult about to sacrifice the princess?
The giant spiders lurking just inside the dark cave?
Demons, devils, dragons??

If you kill any of them, you pay the price. If you debuff any of them and someone in your party kills them, you still pay the price. And your DM can arbitrarily decide that you fall any time he wants ("you stepped on a bug, go atone.")

You can overcome all of this of course. But you have to know what you're getting into.

[Axier]

Yes, you cannot kill anyone, but you can subdual anyone into the ground until they stop attacking.

[Tokuhara]

Yes, you cannot kill anyone, but you can subdual anyone into the ground until they stop attacking.

Or make them Peaceful...

Going to be playing a St. Bertold variant build

[Psyren]

Yes, you cannot kill anyone, but you can subdual anyone into the ground until they stop attacking.

Subdual, quite apart from being ineffective (it's trivial to become immune to nonlethal or to remove it, you need a merciful weapon, or take a penalty on your attacks to deal it etc.), isn't always practical. Okay, so you knocked out the Balor/Red Dragon. What's your plan now, lock him in jail? Tie him up?

Also, you're wide open for griefing. If anyone you knock out is killed by anyone in your party, the cosmos blames you for it. And VoPe doesn't even have the VoN clause of "if the enemy breaks its vow to stay a prisoner you are free to kill it." Meaning you have to capture them again and again no matter how many times they break free.


(Hmm... I wonder if Batman took this vow?)

[Hirax]

Doesn't vow of non-violence only apply to humanoids and monstrous humanoids? I'm pretty sure you're free to use lethal damage against undead, aberrations, etc. That cuts down greatly on the chances of you meeting something you can't do lethal or non-lethal damage to.

[Tokuhara]

Doesn't vow of non-violence only apply to humanoids and monstrous humanoids? I'm pretty sure you're free to use lethal damage against undead, aberrations, etc. That cuts down greatly on the chances of you meeting something you can't do lethal or non-lethal damage to.

Undead & Constructs, though I'm guessing things immune to nonlethal damage are ok

[Psyren]

Doesn't vow of non-violence only apply to humanoids and monstrous humanoids? I'm pretty sure you're free to use lethal damage against undead, aberrations, etc. That cuts down greatly on the chances of you meeting something you can't do lethal or non-lethal damage to.

Vow of Peace only exempts undead and constructs. Aberrations, Monstrous Humanoids, Dragons, even Outsiders and Plants cannot be damaged lethally.

Which is why that vow is so ridiculously dumb. You have to take Balors prisoner. Seriously, WotC?

(Vow of Peace != Vow of Nonviolence. Apostles of Peace must take both.)


Undead & Constructs, though I'm guessing things immune to nonlethal damage are ok

There is no provision against things immune to nonlethal.

[Hirax]

Blech, foiled again.