Ideas of World of Darkness/Vampire/Mage?

[ZiggZagg]

Alright, so I'm really interested in trying a new gaming system. D&D/Pathfinder is starting to burn out for me after 13 years. The group I plan on trying it with first has a mentality for Role Playing, but enjoy dynamic combats as well, and come session can tend to be pretty combat heavy.
So, I'm looking into World of Darkness, and the group has most interest in Mage: The Awakening, and Vampire: The Requiem. So, how well does this system run? I have heard the role play part of it works really well, assuming the GM knows what he is doing. Can combat be just as dynamic and interesting, or does it go too fast, or too easy, or any other way I can't think of? Also, how easy is the system to pick up. 2 of the members of the group tend to be a bit...slow, at times. Not really interested in spending entire sessions explaining rules to them like I have to in D&D at times.

I know the question is vague. I apologize. Just looking for something new to sink my teeth into :smalltongue:

[LemuneSD]

The system itself is pretty straight forward and easy to pick up. Basically, the player wants to perform an action. If it is difficult or during combat, the GM states which type of roll (attack, damage, dodge, science, social...etc.) the player needs to make. The most difficult part is for the GM to decide which stats needs to be rolled, which is commonly debated by the Players if they feel they could use a different stat for a similar result.

Of course, things move only as fast as the players themselves are willing to go. But if they have their actions planned ahead of time, things can progress fairly quickly. I've had good sized battles go from 15 minutes to (if players aren't paying attention and are quoting Monty Python) over an hour and a half :smalleek:

Edit: I should mention I've heard quite a few complaints that the system can be TOO shallow and not complex enough.

[LemuneSD]

Also, World of Darkness games revolve around a darkened mirror image of the earth today, so the atmosphere is easy to identify with. Events in the current world can be tied in with real world events, which can help players feel involved with their character's situations.

[ZiggZagg]

I have heard similar issues about the system being too shallow, but I attribute that to people that are used to games like D&D where every action conceivable is turned into a spell or a feat. World of Darkness, to me anyway, seems like it could be an incredibly in depth game to play, but that would have to come from the group being able to work with what is given to them. Anyway, thanks for the reply!

[LemuneSD]

I definitely agree =D

WoD is by far my favorite system. It gives more freedom to the players BECAUSE of a few less rules. In fact, if you are trying to accomplish a task, and you have the Skill dots to represent being more than adequate for the action, you don't even have to roll. It is accepted that you are more than capable of handling it (unless other stress factors like combat are present, then of course rolls are still needed!).

That is very unlike D&D, where if you sneeze, you need to roll to make sure that a) you managed it, b) you contained the majority within the tissue, or c) failing that, roll to make sure it doesn't spray onto the nearest minotaur, resulting in your untimely demise.

[lightningcat]

I've only played the new World of Darkness a few times (mostly an oWoD player), but it sounds like you have a group that will enjoy the system. I love the magic system that Mage has, even if I'm not a fan of the fluff to go with it. While the questionable backstory for Vampire leaves you lots of room to play in.
But since you need the World of Darkness book to run any of the branch games, why not start your player's off as normal humans and see how they like the basic system before you get to far into buying books? Plus, you can convert those basic human characters into either mages or vampires in-game.

[ZiggZagg]

That's an awesome analogy of D&D Lemune LoL. Although, 4th edition wouldn't be quite like that. You could choose for that encounter to catch the sneeze, but not all of it, choose a racial power to swallow it quickly and with pride, or use your daily power to prevent the aforementioned upsetting of the minotaur.

Cat, that is pretty much what I was figuring, though I will get an idea what they want to be turned into before starting, so I can start moving that way with the campaign. As for the fluff with the Mage game, I agree. It is really bizarre, but I don't mind trying to rewrite it. I'm a huge fan of Warhammer, so rewriting it to be closer to that idea (paradox being miscasts as the power gets away from you, removing all the crazy Atlantis and Exarch stuff, etc) would be in order, probably.

Also, wanted to mention, I prefer the game to stay book light, but I know that every system always has one supplement that really helps the game breathe and expound on convoluted mechanics. So, outside of The Core, Vampire, and Mage, what books would you recommend for the best experience in this system without getting into too many convoluted new rules and options, which is part of my issue with D&D :-p

[TheOOB]

I would suggest running vampire before you run mage. While nWoD is very simple to run, mage can be very convoluted. Casting an improved spell, for example, works like this.

a) State what you want the spell to do
b) Argue for 10 minutes on what arcana(s) the spell requires and at what ratings
c) Argue for 20 minutes on if the spell is covert
d) Have a discussion on what example rules-wise happens with paradox
e) Screw it, just pull our your gun and shoot.

[Dingle]

yeah, as far as I know, mage is the convoluted one, and everything else is about as difficult as each other.

[Kesnit]

My group rotates through different nWoD games, mostly playing Changling and Vampire since those are the ST's favorite.


The group I plan on trying it with first has a mentality for Role Playing, but enjoy dynamic combats as well, and come session can tend to be pretty combat heavy.

IMO, WoD lends itself to RP very well. Combat can obviously be done, but it can also be deadly for PCs. The party has to be able to work together, and it is very unlikely 1 PC can solve the combat on their own. Be willing to let players use their Disciplines / Arcana in creative ways. (I once played a Daeva with no combat capability whatsoever. When the party went into combat, I spent my rounds using Majesty to force enemies to look at me, rather than attack. "Look at me! I'm pretty! You don't want to hit him. You want to look at me!")


Can combat be just as dynamic and interesting, or does it go too fast, or too easy, or any other way I can't think of?

That mostly comes down to how the ST sets up the combat. As in any RPG, combat can be too easy or too hard, based on the power of the party and the "evilness" of the ST. :smallbiggrin:


Also, how easy is the system to pick up.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I think it's pretty easy.

You can run a game perfectly well with just the core WoD (dark blue) book and the core book for the specific system (Mage or Vampire). Additional splat books add options, but they aren't necessary.

[LemuneSD]

...That mostly comes down to how the ST sets up the combat. As in any RPG, combat can be too easy or too hard, based on the power of the party and the "evilness" of the ST. :smallbiggrin:

Haha. I was playing in a Vampire game. It was going great until the GM said the words: "Suddenly, you smell an overpowering stench of wet dog."

*About an hour previous, we had stolen an important artifact from a pair of werewolves, and thrown their car (with them in it) into the East River before they knew what was happening. Apparently, they hold grudges. Who knew?

[Kesnit]

Haha. I was playing in a Vampire game. It was going great until the GM said the words: "Suddenly, you smell an overpowering stench of wet dog."

*About an hour previous, we had stolen an important artifact from a pair of werewolves, and thrown their car (with them in it) into the East River before they knew what was happening. Apparently, they hold grudges. Who knew?

*snicker* Yeah, that's evil. Of course, sometimes, that backfires... :smallbiggrin:

My first VtR game, the ST was winding down the game, so he gave us all massive XP in one swoop. I put a lot of mine into boosting my Nightmare rolls, so I had a dice pool of 15 on just about every pull.

We were fighting a boss and two if his minions. It was supposed to be an EPIC FIGHT, as he had to stop the boss from releasing the real BBEG (some vampire-spirit thing), who was locked in the room behind him. My character had almost no offensive capability, but was built to buff/debuff. (Nightmare and Demenate.) In the first round, I used Nightmare 4 since that stuns the victim for a round, keeping them from acting. I thought I would keep the boss from opening the door while the rest of the party dealt with the minions, then help the party take down the boss. I rolled an exceptional success, so grabbed by book to find out what happens: "The victim falls unconscious where he stands."

The ST looked like I had kicked his puppy. Especially when the next player in rotation was a melee specialist - and chopped the boss's head off.

[TheCountAlucard]

Haha. I was playing in a Vampire game. It was going great until the GM said the words: "Suddenly, you smell an overpowering stench of wet dog."Huh. :smallconfused: Honestly, I wouldn't even have given you that.

After all, vampires don't breathe. :belkar:

[lightningcat]

I would suggest running vampire before you run mage. While nWoD is very simple to run, mage can be very convoluted. Casting an improved spell, for example, works like this.

a) State what you want the spell to do
b) Argue for 10 minutes on what arcana(s) the spell requires and at what ratings
c) Argue for 20 minutes on if the spell is covert
d) Have a discussion on what example rules-wise happens with paradox
e) Screw it, just pull our your gun and shoot.

This is very true of old WoD, but much less so for nWoD. But I will agree that Mage is the most convoluted of all the games.

Now as for what other books, Damnation City helps you with the politics of a city for Vampires, while New Orleans and Chicago describe those cities.
While for Mage there is Boston Unveiled as a city book. Magical Traditions is wonderful if you plan on changing the backstory for Mage.
Antagonists, Armory, Armory Reloaded, Mirrors, and Reliquary are all interesting additions for any game.

[ZiggZagg]

I've heard about Damnation City, and have been told it's good. I've also been told to check out The Blood, Danse Macabre, and Ghouls.

As for Mage, I can't remember the name, but there was one I was told about that was supposed to shed some light on the nature of magic a bit more, and helped explained the convoluted spellcasting system a bit better, especially when you are trying to do the improvised spell. Perhaps Magical Traditions was it...I will have to go back and look.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys. Please, keep it coming!

[TheCountAlucard]

I've also been told to check out The Blood, Danse Macabre, and Ghouls.I can say from experience, Ghouls is a pretty nice book. Details on how to ghoul plants, how a ghoul stores Vitae, and the down-low on ghoul families, all can be very handy.

The Blood doesn't really provide anything that's not in the core book; it mostly just takes every heading, and throws more details at it. So, if you would like to read the sort of mentality that might develop in a person using Nightmare all the time, or what it's like to commit diablerie, then The Blood might be a good choice.

Haven't read Danse Macabre yet, though.

[LemuneSD]

After all, vampires don't breathe. :belkar:

Vampires don't need to breath, but they still do to emulate a moving chest. If someone notices that their chest doesn't expand and contract from breathing, possible breach of the Masquerade. Same with blinking and other basic human motions xD

[TheCountAlucard]

Vampires don't need to breathe, but they still do to emulate a moving chest.Only if they actively make effort to do so; collectively, remembering to breathe, blinking, et cetera, it's called the Blush of Life, and it takes one Vitae per scene to maintain.

With that kind of price tag, it would be foolhardy to do it needlessly - you know, like when no one else is around... which is the only kind of place I'd expect they'd get jumped by werewolves.


If someone notices that their chest doesn't expand and contract from breathing, possible breach of the Masquerade.Sure, possibly. Though if you don't mind my asking, have you ever kept track of someone else's breathing before, in casual conversation? Unless it's something you're already in the know about (in which case it's not a breach of the Masquerade, but is still likely something to be careful about), it's not something you're gonna do, and if you're not actively looking for a person not breathing as often as he should, then you're probably only going to notice it subconciously (or perhaps with an Exceptional Success on your Perception roll).


Same with blinking and other basic human motionsAgain, covered under Blush of Life, which means they don't do it all the time.

[LemuneSD]

Only if they actively make effort to do so; collectively, remembering to breathe, blinking, et cetera, it's called the Blush of Life, and it takes one Vitae per scene to maintain.

Blush of life in oWoD only costs a Blood Point. This was a small cost to pay for blending in with humanity for a whole SCENE. Scenes can last for more than just a few minutes of interaction.

As far as keeping track of another's breathing. While it isn't a conscious observation to see someone breathing, it is an odd and out-of-place observation to notice someone NOT breathing. Kind of like how you don't pay attention to people passing you unless there is something off about them, such as they're perspiring and glassy-eyed more than a normal standard. Or their eyes are colored a bit redder than usual. Nothing really stands out that you can specifically pinpoint until something slightly NOT NORMAL draws your attention, bringing it to your concious mind. This is part of Selective Attention. You don't recognize you're doing it at the time.

In the particular situation I was in, it was winter in Chicago. Just talking will put out vapor into the air (the mist that comes from your breath in the cold). If you are not using a Blood Point to disguise yourself, this is definitely a noticable trait that will cause others to take notice, even if they can't pinpoint it. It is an unconcious thing, so I can see how you'd overlook it ^_^

[The Reverend]

oWoD player Mage

The problem with mage is given time and the right set of spheres of magick Anything Is Possible. We had a chantry inside a peanut butter jar in one campaign, guarded by weaponized psychic compandas, etc. The sky is really the limit and I if I were a story teller make my players right out 5 pages of rotes and another couple pages of explanation for their paradigm and foci.

I would definitely start with another of the WoD books. I prefer the oWoD: a I like the fluff better and B mages feel more needed in nWoD. But after "The Lawn Chair Incident" nerfing was inevitable, in our Hubris we showed too much of our True power and were undone by the masses of Vampire players.

[LemuneSD]

You like those pandas, eh? ^_^

[masterjoda99]

As for Mage, I can't remember the name, but there was one I was told about that was supposed to shed some light on the nature of magic a bit more, and helped explained the convoluted spellcasting system a bit better, especially when you are trying to do the improvised spell. Perhaps Magical Traditions was it...I will have to go back and look.



To me that sounds more like something from Tome of the Mysteries, assuming you're referring to nWoD mage.

[TheCountAlucard]

Blush of life in oWoD only costs a Blood Point.Lemme stop you right there. In oWoD, the cost is eight minus your current Humanity. Humanity 5? It's costing 3 per scene. And again, even if you're only paying one per scene, it's still not something you do frivolously, like when there aren't any kine around, which I'd bet is the norm if a pack of werewolves is about to jump someone.


This was a small cost to pay for blending in with humanity for a whole SCENE. Scenes can last for more than just a few minutes of interaction.They can, but often don't. And as I pointed out, it's not a small cost.


If you are not using a Blood Point to disguise yourself...Or three...


It is an unconcious thing, so I can see how you'd overlook itAnd people don't notice gorillas walking across the screen when keeping track of how many times a basketball is being passed around. When a person isn't paying attention to something, they generally don't notice it.

[LemuneSD]

Lemme stop you right there. In oWoD, the cost is eight minus your current Humanity. Humanity 5? It's costing 3 per scene. And again, even if you're only paying one per scene, it's still not something you do frivolously, like when there aren't any kine around, which I'd bet is the norm if a pack of werewolves is about to jump someone.

They can, but often don't. And as I pointed out, it's not a small cost.

Or three...

And people don't notice gorillas walking across the screen when keeping track of how many times a basketball is being passed around. When a person isn't paying attention to something, they generally don't notice it.

The point that you are missing is this. If it helps keep the Masquerade, you might think it is frivolous, but I think it is very important. Especially since I'm playing a ROLE playing game, not a Hack and Slash. We do more than just go from one combat to the next. Scenes in our game have more than just "Round 1. Fight!"

As far as the Werewolves in this case, there were people around. They were noticed BEFORE they attacked, because we could smell them, using the Blood Pts while in an area with NON Vampires and NON werewolves around. It is NOT a heavy cost to pay to blend in and not be noticed.

And not notice Gorillas? I am more observant than that, it seems. I won't count how many times the basketball is being passed, but note that it is indeed being passed. If someone isn't paying attention to something and an out-of-the-ordinary something passes them, they might not see what exactly it was, but they DO notice it. And guess what? They'll turn to see what it was that caught their attention. It is a sub-concious reflex to understand one's environment, to make sense of their surroundings.

Ever been in a forest when suddenly everything goes quiet? It's not a noise you're noticing. It is a Not Normal silence that you notice. Do you ignore it and continue on doing what you were doing? Or do you look around to see if you can find out what triggered it? People who ignore it are people who get eaten.

[TheCountAlucard]

The point that you are missing is this. If it helps keep the Masquerade, you might think it is frivolous, but I think it is very important.I'm missing nothing. :smallannoyed: The point I made is, if no one's around, you're not gonna spend it. Hell, if a PC is relatively low-Humanity, he's probably going to go out of his way to find situations where he doesn't need to spend it, because repeatedly having to do so will run him dry in very short order.


Especially since I'm playing a ROLE playing game, not a Hack and Slash. We do more than just go from one combat to the next. Scenes in our game have more than just "Round 1. Fight!"I take offense to the implications of this part of your post.


As far as the Werewolves in this case, there were people around.Well, then, that's kind of an important detail. And kinda stupid on the part of the werewolves, then.


It is NOT a heavy cost to pay to blend in and not be noticed.It is if you have to hunt immediately after two social scenes.


And not notice Gorillas? I am more observant than that, it seems. I won't count how many times the basketball is being passed, but note that it is indeed being passed.:smallsigh:

You haven't seen the video I'm referencing, then, but the gist is this: the video asks you to count the number of passes, and for the people who don't know to expect it, they never even notice a gorilla walks through the scene until after it's pointed out and shown to them again.


If someone isn't paying attention to something and an out-of-the-ordinary something passes them, they might not see what exactly it was, but they DO notice it.But if they are paying attention to anything, they won't notice something odd. It's been proven - a person's brain is phenomenally-talented at shutting out details and then lying to him about it.


And guess what? They'll turn to see what it was that caught their attention.No, they won't.

Again, this trick has been done before - you can find more than a fair share of videos in which a person has been asked to fill out paperwork by someone at a counter, and then the guy at the counter briefly ducks away for a second ("Oops, dropped my pen."), and then comes back up a different person. Different ethnicity, or gender, radically-different build. You know how many people noticed a change? I don't recall percentages, but it was a laughably-low number.

A person's brain is hard-wired to lie to them about weird stuff - if something changes, as above, when the brain isn't actively paying attention to it, it's damn hard to convince oneself that it was ever any different.


It is a sub-concious reflex to understand one's environment, to make sense of their surroundings.Again, the human brain actually does a suspiciously-good job of lying to one about one's surroundings.


Ever been in a forest when suddenly everything goes quiet?No, so I'm going to skip the rest of your analogy.

[LemuneSD]

No. I haven't seen the video you are referencing. You are using a video online and using the result you see. That doesn't make it typical for the average person.

Picking out a few people and putting videos of their responses is done for entertainment value, not scientific. Is that average? Who's to say without conducting further statistical experiments. And Average doesn't mean Normal. I bet if you were to watch ALL of the videos they had taken, not just the ones shown, you'd see a lot more varied results.

Giving a person something to concentrate on while sneaking something else by is a tactic of distraction. That is how ambushes work. That is NOT the same thing as getting by with it on the streets and assuming everyone will fall for the same thing.

If someone is concentrating on something, it is a lot easier to sneak things by because their attention is preoccupied. If that same person is not currently having their attention on anything specific, their sub-conscious can pick up unusual things to bring to our conscious attention.

And as for the werewolves. How is it foolhardy to remain hidden? They are stalking in the darkness, not jumping around like a gorilla in a video, hoping to not be seen. It is something Garou can do fairly easily.

You taking offense to implications? How about burning people about something that wasn't even the main topic and judging before obtaining all the details, then saying "Well, then, that's kind of an important detail. And kinda stupid on their parts." Not my intent to offend, but I won't apologize if you claim offense taken, due to the circumstances.

If it is important to the campaign to remain invisible to the human masses that you interact with on a daily basis, spending a Blood Pt isn't wasted. It's akin to...paying bills. It has to be done. Give something to get something.

Edit: And for reference, the scene was night, winter, Chicago. There WERE normal people around. We found out that the werewolves were stalking us. We moved to someplace secluded to set up a discussion with them. And we, too, used the visual distraction to focus their attention. They didn't notice the Assamite hiding in the shadows while our group leader and two others (me included) stood under a street lamp, ankle deep in snow, waiting for them to arrive. We gave them a distraction, much like your basketball reference, and the gorilla was hiding in the shadows. No, they didn't notice him. And since the GM declared it a new scene, no we did NOT use blood points to keep up Blush.

[TheCountAlucard]

Picking out a few people and putting videos of their responses is done for entertainment value, not scientific.It was part of a scientific study. The videos were posted after the fact.


Is that average?Yes.


Who's to say without conducting further statistical experiments.They are, because they did.


Giving a person something to concentrate on while sneaking something else by is a tactic of distraction.Here's the thing, though - people are almost always focused on something else anyway.


That is NOT the same thing as getting by with it on the streets and assuming everyone will fall for the same thing.It's been done on the streets, too - lately, certain magicians have made a point of demonstrating the very same principle of which I speak; stopping a person on the street and asking something of them, perhaps to look at a map and provide directions, and then someone carrying something big walks between the pair, and when the person finishes giving directions, he's giving them to a completely-different person, and never notices a thing.


If someone is concentrating on something, it is a lot easier to sneak things by because their attention is preoccupied.People are almost always concentrating on something.


How is it foolhardy to remain hidden?How foolhardy is it to be close enough to Kindred for them to be able to smell them, in a location where there are people around? And if they smell like "wet dog," that especially seems foolish, because that implies they're not in human form. Plus, you gave no indication that they were just sneaking around, following the vampire PCs, so I took it to mean they jumped you. Now that I see that's not the case, it's a very different matter.


...then saying "Well, then, that's kind of an important detail. And kinda stupid on their parts." Not my intent to offend.It is an important detail - the fact that you disagreed with me over something you left out is what's causing this whole argument. I'll admit, I'm guilty of this, too - I probably should've mentioned that the videos in question were part of a scientific study, for instance.


If it is important to the campaign to remain invisible to the human masses that you interact with on a daily basis, spending a Blood Pt isn't wasted.Again, though, in my experience, it's rarely a blood point. Frankly, that's one of the huge reasons I prefer nWoD over oWoD - it's not the lack investiture of blood that makes you stand out, it's the fact that you are an inhuman monster, a murderous walking corpse.


It's akin to...paying bills. It has to be done.Unless you're a Nossie, apparently. :smalltongue: Their solution, naturally, is Obfuscate. :smallwink:


And for reference, the scene was night, winter, Chicago. There WERE normal people around. We found out that the werewolves were stalking us. We moved to someplace secluded to set up a discussion with them. And we, too, used the visual distraction to focus their attention. They didn't notice the Assamite hiding in the shadows while our group leader and two others (me included) stood under a street lamp, ankle deep in snow, waiting for them to arrive. We gave them a distraction, much like your basketball reference, and the gorilla was hiding in the shadows. No, they didn't notice him. And since the GM declared it a new scene, no we did NOT use blood points to keep up Blush.Thank you - that sounds like an interesting session. :smallsmile:

[LemuneSD]

It was part of a scientific study. The videos were posted after the fact.

Yes.

They are, because they did.

Here's the thing, though - people are almost always focused on something else anyway.

That is exactly what I meant, too. It is a mental trick that one can play to gain an advantage. It is used from Street Sleight-of-hand, street 'experimental' videos like you were describing, and military tactics. Distract them with something else, and you can often detract attention from what you are trying to hide. This also works for hiding things in plain sight.

I did neglect to mention what was transpiring before this, though. After obtaining the Artifact in question, we had a social gathering with our Prince. Then we were going to a local Pawn Shop where we have a contact in a Nosferatu (living under the shop itself) who collects artifacts and junk, and happened to specialize in these things. (yay Contacts) We were heading through a populated (lightly, but they were there) area when our GM was suspiciously rolling dice. One of our players meta-gamed and wanted to make the check. The bastard actually rolled 6 successes (out of 6) so the GM gave him the Wet Dog scent, which was overpowering to this character. He had in his character history past dealings with Garou. Not good ones, either.


People are almost always concentrating on something.

That isn't true, though. Attention spans roam, and will note things, but not necessarily attracting their attention towards it. That is a problem of Focused Attention vs Divided Attention. But if something either interesting or unordinary catches their attention, then they might focus on it.


How foolhardy is it to be close enough to Kindred for them to be able to smell them, in a location where there are people around? And if they smell like "wet dog," that especially seems foolish, because that implies they're not in human form. Plus, you gave no indication that they were just sneaking around, following the vampire PCs, so I took it to mean they jumped you. Now that I see that's not the case, it's a very different matter.

I purposely left it vague for entertainment purposes, and I left out specific details to relate a comedic take on that particular situation. They were NOT in human form, they were in damp, humongous crinos form. Specifically, they were 'stalking' us from a 2nd story rooftop. Their Gifts of visual concealment didn't cover their smell, which they didn't consider since they are used to it. Apologies for the confusion.


Again, though, in my experience, it's rarely a blood point. Frankly, that's one of the huge reasons I prefer nWoD over oWoD - it's not the lack investiture of blood that makes you stand out, it's the fact that you are an inhuman monster, a murderous walking corpse.

I fully agree with that part. While I loathe the fact that all the fluff I had grown to enjoy was completely washed away unconsidered (something I accuse George Lucas of doing with the new SW trilogy over the Fiction that was produced by Lucas Publishing...), the essence is more darker and focused on the horrors of the nWoD rather than each Player is a shining Hero of some sort.

[ZiggZagg]

LoL I suppose this sort of derailment was inevitable. However, I will kindly ask that if you two want to discuss rules debates, or scientific debates, stfu and do it in another thread from where a newbie is asking for help. :-p

Several posts up, someone referenced Tome of Mysteries as the Mage book I was trying to remember. Thank you for that.

All this information has been wonderful. Now, is combat hard to engage in, and are there harsh penalties if it happens out in the open? (I know this depends on the storyteller, but asking kind of as a general question.)

[TheCountAlucard]

However, I will kindly ask that if you two want to discuss... do it in another thread from where a newbie is asking for help.Eh, I was done discussing it anyway. :smalltongue:


Now, is combat hard to engage in...?In my experience with both Vampire and with ordinary mortals, combat is both easy and deadly. Initiative is easy, turns are quick, and other factors are only as complicated as the ST wants them to be.


...and are there harsh penalties if it happens out in the open?Why would there be? Or do you mean, like, getting the cops called on you, and not just a -2 to rolls? :smalltongue:

Yeah, no, you don't want to be throwing down in public. Vampires have the Masquerade, so if you get caught flipping a car over on someone or not caring after taking a headshot, other Kindred are gonna be out for your blood. Mages, of course, have Paradox, and thus don't want to be slinging their magic around for all to see either.

[LemuneSD]

Heeeyyy...we kissed and made up already! :smallbiggrin:

I really like the Dice Pool system over D20. It is simple to find the numbers needed for any roll challenge (offensive, defensive and non-combat wise). It is usually easy to comprehend and utilize for people unfamiliar with the system, and by their 3rd round usually have a grasp of what to do. (from past experience with players new to Dice Pool systems & D20 systems alike)

The hardest part is deciding what exactly you want to accomplish, and for the GM to decide what the difficulty is for some the outrageous actions some of the players are sure to think up. Just ask if you want a brief description of how the system works.

But as for combat, this system as with any other (as unhelpful as this comment is going to be...) is as fast-and-easy or long-and-drawn out as the players & GM are willing to make it.

As a house rule, my group combines a bit of D&D 4th Ed into the mix using the Minion rules of engagement often. Lots of plebian basic-statted npcs sprinkled with more powerful NPCs that we flesh out a bit to give plausible threat. Combat goes quickly, Players feel rewarded by killing minions, and take the Stat NPCs more seriously.

[ZiggZagg]

Yeah, not mechanical penalties. I meant like roleplay, game related ones. So if you break "The Masquerade", which I'm assuming is the vampires term for hiding from mortals, it's a bad thing. That makes sense.

Now with Mages, there is paradox. I have heard the time, and understand it is something bad. What exactly causes it? Just casting noticeable spells, or doing it in public. Like, if you are dungeon delving (i know, speaking like D&D, but I imagine it happens at times), and you blast something else that is supernatural with like a lightning bolt or magic blast or something, is there still repercussions?

[ZiggZagg]

Sure, LemuneSD, a brief description would be cool. I kinda understand how it works, but reading the rules, and hearing someone explain can have different ways of learning it, and I'm all about figuring it all out :-p

[LemuneSD]

The basic idea of oWoD is that while each supernatural is powerful in their own rights, each also tries their best to make sure humanity as a whole remains unaware of their species' existence. Each has their own reasonings for this, but the idea is that while a person or small group is relatively weak, Humanity as a whole is extremely dangerous and very predictable. Any unknown creatures harming humans will die quickly and with extreme prejudice. Nothing brings people together like something in common to hate.

Vampires of course need humans for blood. To preserve the species, the elder vampires (Kindred, they call themselves) of the Camarilla (one of three sects, containing 7 {6 when Gangrel left} vampire clans) have established The Masquerade, lies and misinformation to make the general populace believe that supernatural creatures really don't exist. They enforce this violently. Any vampires caught breaking this and drawing public attention are dealt with and their actions covered up.

Another sect of Vampires, called the Sabbat (2 core clans, quite a few others in and out depending) believe that Vampires are a higher creature than humans, and they should not be adhering to the laws set by Elders. They don't call themselves Kindred, usually Vampire or Cainite/Child of Cain (In this game, Cain kills Able and is cursed by God and turned into the first Vampire ever created) to show they aren't part of humanity. They rule themselves. This is where the major conflict between vampires comes in.

The last "sect" is a few clans who pledge alliance to either their own clan or are neutral.

----------

Mages and Paradox...It is actually rather complex. In Mage, reality is not fixed, but rather a set of agreed upon assumptions enforced by the collective will of humanity, called Sleepers. Think Matrix. Mages who are Awakened realize that reality is not set as everyone thinks it is, and by using their will, reality can be altered.

The problem arises when Mages use magic that is unbelievable to whichever reality is witness. This is called Vulgar Magic. Bending and warping reality to severe, impossible degrees can cause Reality to collapse and backlash, and the mage will suffer Paradox.

The hands-down best way I've seen it described is on this page:
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Paradox_%28MTAs%29

[ZiggZagg]

That's a fascinating tale. I especially like the part about Cain and Abel. Is the story still the same in the newer edition of World of Darkness, and with Requiem?

[LemuneSD]

As for Combat (and any other action that is either possibly challenging, has a stress factor, or is contested by another) everything is pretty straight forward.

Once you know the action you want to accomplish, you find which two stats (one Primary, called Attributes. one Secondary, called Abilities) you need to make the roll. Add up however many dots your character has (dots representing how skillful your character is at that category) and that is your total Dice Pool. There are many different possible combinations, depending on what the action you are trying to achieve is. Using a knife, you need Dexterity + Melee. To use a gun, Dex + Firearms. To win a swimming match, Stamina + Athletics. Hack into a database server, Intelligence + Computers. The GM should let you know which stats are needed for the action.

The GM then gives you a difficulty for the action (average difficulty for an action is 6. If something is more challenging for some reason (stress, movement, cover, etc) then the difficulty may increase or even decrease (mundane task, helpful equipment, etc). You then roll your Dice Pool against the Diff target.

Each dice that is equal to or more than the Diff is a success. Each dice below the target is a failure. Each 1 you roll detracts one of your highest success dice. If you have no successes and one or more 1s rolled, then it is a Botch. You messed up bad and now something awful is going to happen to you. (GM's decision here on what fortune awaits)

[LemuneSD]

That's a fascinating tale. I especially like the part about Cain and Abel. Is the story still the same in the newer edition of World of Darkness, and with Requiem?

That is another reason why I love oWoD over nWoD. The fluff is sometimes surprisingly well thought out and interesting (no matter how unlikely some of it is xD), in all of the games. I'm mostly familiar with Vampire and Werewolf stories though. I'm actually not too sure about Requiem's fluff and haven't set to reading it all yet.

I attribute this to the G. Lucas effect. Taking stories and completely overhauling them, with little regard to how the fans feel or have built upon. It is a bit disheartening for me, and so I have trouble adjusting to the new storyline.

If I can suggest, a trilogy of books in a series called "The Masquerade of the Red Death" was an AMAZING story line for VtM. Starting with Bloodwar, the first book. It might be hard to find due to being out of print, but they are well worth the effort if you like novels (and maybe even game or character ideas).

[ZiggZagg]

Ok, Dice Pool system seems very easy to grasp. I like that. I have heard a lot of people say they don't like the new fluff they wrote for a lot of New World of Darkness. I'm ok with the fluff being a little off, as that can all be re-written (if need be, just like the old, in the case of Vampire. The whole Cain story seems really interesting.)

Have you played Requiem that much to compare how the mechanics run between the two. I've read more positive feedback for how the game actually runs from New World of Darkness material, while I hear a lot of people prefer the more in depth story that came with the Old system.

[Sanguine]

Have you played Requiem that much to compare how the mechanics run between the two. I've read more positive feedback for how the game actually runs from New World of Darkness material, while I hear a lot of people prefer the more in depth story that came with the Old system.

White Wolf seems to be aware of the feelings as they have released a supplement for Vampire that allows you to convert Requiem Rules to Masquerade fluff and vice versa. There are also similar supplements in the works for Werewolf and Mage.

[ZiggZagg]

Which was one that?

[LemuneSD]

I hate to once again redirect away from the GitP forums, but I found this for ya:

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Caine

Its a good read and describes both Cain and how the clans of VtM are formed. Now that I think about it, not much is referenced about Requiem Clans having fully detailed backgrounds tracing back their Sires, except for a few exceptions like Mekhet and Julii clans. I don't think there is a reference to Cain in VtR.

[Sanguine]

Which was one that?

I believe it is called Vampire Translation Guide.

Edit: Have some links. Product. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=86202) Bundle with Masquerade and Requiem Core Books. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=86203)

[TheCountAlucard]

So if you break "The Masquerade", which I'm assuming is the vampires term for hiding from mortals, it's a bad thing. That makes sense.It's not just a Bad Thing for you, it's potentially a Bad Thing for all Kindred, hence why if you get caught breaking the Masquerade, they'll drag you out and make you see sunrise.


I have heard the time, and understand it is something bad. What exactly causes it?It varies between oWoD and nWoD.

In oWoD, reality was kind of a consensus thing, and thus any magic that was too vulgar (or was witnessed by Sleepers) caused the universe itself to backlash at you.


Like, if you are dungeon delving (i know, speaking like D&D, but I imagine it happens at times), and you blast something else that is supernatural with like a lightning bolt or magic blast or something, is there still repercussions?There can be - again, it depends on how vulgar the spell is.


Another sect of Vampires, called the Sabbat (2 core clans, quite a few others in and out depending) believe that Vampires are a higher creature than humans, and they should not be adhering to the laws set by Elders.Despite that, you can damn well bet they recognized the value of the Masquerade. :smallamused:


This is where the major conflict between vampires comes in.There's also the fact that all Kindred (and through them, all mortals under Kindred influence) are puppets of the thirteen-or-so ancient clan founders, waging their petty and eternal war for dominance, despite said clan founders mostly being in torpor, dead, or discorporated into the minds/bodies of their entire respective clan.

Yes, even then. Yes, even then. No, Golconda won't save you from it - you're just playing into their hands. Yes, even then.

And this is a fact of the setting - if you'd care to disagree, all it takes is a glance at what kind of B.S. you can pull with elder-level Disciplines, and then remember that level-10 Disciplines are pretty much stated to be plot devices.

And that's one of the reasons I don't enjoy oWoD as much anymore. :smallsigh:


The last "sect" is a few clans who pledge alliance to either their own clan or are neutral.Not counting the Inconnu, the Tal'mahe'Ra, the Anarchs...


That's a fascinating tale.Eh, it's all very interesting, but these days to see the whole picture, you need to spend hours scouring wikis, and/or spend hundreds of dollars on out-of-print books for splats you were never even going to use. And a lot of it's really only fascinating until you see how they handle it. :smallsigh:


I especially like the part about Cain and Abel.Basically, after Caine (as in, with an "e") killed Abel and was cursed, he went off to wander, and met Lillith, where he learned a bunch of fancy vampire tricks from, and also met with the archangels, each of which gave him another, separate curse. After that, he goes and embraces some more people, and together found a city. He tells them not to go embracing anybody while he takes a brief vacation, and they proceed to go and do it anyway, and then those vampires go and murder their sires, after which point Caine punishes them all.


Is the story still the same in the newer edition of World of Darkness, and with Requiem?In Requiem, the backstory is exactly what you want to make it. You're free. :smalleek:


As for Combat (and any other action that is either possibly challenging, has a stress factor, or is contested by another) everything is pretty straight forward.Umm, that's oWoD combat - this guy's getting nWoD.


That is another reason why I love oWoD over nWoD.To each his own, I guess.


The fluff is sometimes surprisingly well thought out and interesting......

Umm, let's just agree to disagree, then...


I attribute this to the G. Lucas effect. Taking stories and completely overhauling them, with little regard to how the fans feel or have built upon. It is a bit disheartening for me, and so I have trouble adjusting to the new storyline.Umm, that's the thing - there is no new storyline. The game is what you want to make of it. Not only that, but quite a few fans (including myself) became increasingly sick of the oWoD in general because of the all-encompassing metaplot.

Trust me, after the fifth 3:00 AM discussion of how the Week of Nightmares affected each and every faction in the game, it starts to get really annoying. :smallsigh:


Have you played Requiem that much to compare how the mechanics run between the two.I've played both.


I've read more positive feedback for how the game actually runs from New World of Darkness material, while I hear a lot of people prefer the more in depth story that came with the Old system.In my experience, nWoD has much better crunch than oWoD, but the difference between the two is that oWoD is a setting, and nWoD is a toolbox.


Which was one that?It's called the Vampire Translation Guide.

[Kesnit]

LemuneSD gave a good summary of how combat (or any dice roll, actually) in oWoD worked, but there are a few changes in nWod. Successes are now always 8, 9, and 10. 10's "explode," meaning you can re-roll that die to try for another success. You can keep re-rolling, as long as you keep rolling 10s. (Certain Merits allow 9's to explode for specific rolls.)

1's no longer take away successes, unless the book specifically says they do. (Certain Disciplines, Nos Social rolls, Gangrel Mental rolls, etc.)

One other change is that Nos are not automatically walking breaches of the Masquerade. Depending on the creep chosen by the player (or the bloodline's creep if they have one), it is possible for a Nos to walk around. Kine will still be creeped out by the Nos, but they do not automatically. (I know someone who played a Nos with the creep "Aura of Impending Doom." When you got close to her, you felt like the world was about to end.)

The Camerilla, Sabat, and Anarchs no longer exist. Instead, there's the Invictus (feudal hierarchy), Sanctified (vamprisim is a curse from god), Circle of the Crone (pagan-like users of blood magic), Ordo Dracul (those who "research" the vampiric condition in hopes of overcoming the weaknesses), and the Carthian Movement (political movement that believes everyone should rise or fall on their own merits). Any vampire can join any covenant, though some clans are more common in certain covenants. (Ventrue tend to become Invictus.) Certain bloodlines have to be in certain covenants. (Galoi, a Nos bloodline, are always Crone.) A vampire does not have to join a covenant; they can be Unaligned.

[comicshorse]

Not counting the Inconnu, the Tal'mahe'Ra, the Anarchs...



and the demon-worshippers, the Black Hand (both of 'em), the Soul Eaters, those actually working for the Antedeluvian........
There is a reason White Wolf rolled up the old line and the fact it was getting top-heavy with mysterious factions is one of them.
That said if you're prepared to prune the conspiracies down I still think the fluff of OWoD is great.
I do think the rules of NWoD are better though.

Side question: do NwoD Mages still suffer from Paradox and do NWoD werewolves still provoke the Delerium ? (I've only played Nu Vampire and Changeling)

[TheCountAlucard]

Side question: do NwoD Mages still suffer from Paradox and do NWoD werewolves still provoke the Delerium?Yes and no... Mages still have to deal with Paradox, but it's not because of consensual reality so much as the Abyss is lashing out at them. Werewolves still trigger a primal response in mortals - in nWoD, it's called Lunacy, and how likely they are to forget it is based off the victim's Willpower, modified by what form you were in at the time.


The Camarilla, Sabat, and Anarchs no longer exist.One idea suggested in certain books is that the Camarilla did exist.

Also, certain elements of each are still very much present in the Requiem Covenants. The Camarilla's ideals of elders in power and feudal heirarchy are still very much held by the Invictus; the Carthians are like the Anarchs in that they're the "new" organization that seeks to do away with the ancient structure of the Invictus; certain aspects of the Sabbat and the Baali can still be seen in Belial's Brood and VII.


Any vampire can join any covenant, though some clans are more common in certain covenants.That's because certain covenants are better fits for certain clans than others. Nosferatu, for instance, are penalized on their social rolls, so the Invictus and Carthians might be bad fits for them; Gangrel are penalized on mental rolls, so they wouldn't get much use out of Theban Sorcery, which gives them less incentive to join the Lancea Sanctum; Mekhet have both Auspex and Obfuscate, which can provide tremendous help in picking up secrets, a trait the Ordo Dracul admires... and so on and so forth.


Ventrue tend to become Invictus.No more so than Daeva... still, another example of it fitting them better than other organizations. After all, both clans possess use of a Discipline that the Invictus finds very useful.

[comicshorse]

Thanks :smallsmile:
I loved OWoD Werewolf I really must get round to reading up on the new one. Though as most of what I liked about the old one was interacting with spirits I'm a bit worried about what I've head

[TheCountAlucard]

I loved OWoD Werewolf I really must get round to reading up on the new one. Though as most of what I liked about the old one was interacting with spirits I'm a bit worried about what I've headWhat have you heard? :smallconfused:

Because nWoD Werewolf is almost entirely about dealing with spirits...

[comicshorse]

What have you heard? :smallconfused:

Because nWoD Werewolf is almost entirely about dealing with spirits...

Ah I may have put that poorly.
What I enjoyed about old Werewolf was talking with and making deals with spirits.
What I've heard about Nu Werewolf is its about hunting spirits down and killing them.
Shades of the '51 st State' here

[TheCountAlucard]

What I've heard about Nu Werewolf is its about hunting spirits do and killing them.Well, no, you still need to be able to diplomatically deal with spirits, because without them, you can't learn new Gifts. :smallconfused:

While it's true that there are bad spirits running around that need to be dealt with in a more physical manner, I thought that was true of oWoD Werewolf as well. :smallconfused:

[comicshorse]

Well, no, you still need to be able to diplomatically deal with spirits, because without them, you can't learn new Gifts. :smallconfused:


Excellent. I should know better than to listen to rumours and not just read the book myself


While it's true that there are bad spirits running around that need to be dealt with in a more physical manner, I thought that was true of oWoD Werewolf as well.

A bit certainly not to extent that I'd heard they do it in NuWerewolf. (I.E.) That is pretty much the Werewolf's purpose

[Kesnit]

One idea suggested in certain books is that the Camarilla did exist.

Are you referring to Requiem for Rome? Yes, the Camarilla did exist during the Roman Empire, but fell apart. Is there another book that infers the Cam still exists? (Not saying there isn't one. That's why I'm asking.)


The Camarilla's ideals of elders in power and feudal heirarchy are still very much held by the Invictus; the Carthians are like the Anarchs in that they're the "new" organization that seeks to do away with the ancient structure of the Invictus;

I almost put those parallels in my post, but decided against it. :smallbiggrin:


certain aspects of the Sabbat and the Baali can still be seen in Belial's Brood and VII.

True, but the impression I got (and maybe this is just me) is that the Brood and VII were intended to be NPC covenants. I was only addressing the PC ones. (I know there are books on the Brood and VII, but have never gotten around to reading them. Maybe the books address playing PCs.)


That's because certain covenants are better fits for certain clans than others.

Not denying that at all. I was only making a comment.


No more so than Daeva

My example was only an example. It wasn't intended to be an exhaustive list. :smallsmile:

[TheCountAlucard]

Excellent. I should know better than to listen to rumours and not just read the book myselfAs much as I appreciate that attitude, I also appreciate not having to spend a bunch of money to get an opinion on something I might not even play, so I can certainly see why one might do that.


A bit certainly not to extent that I'd heard they do it in NuWerewolf. (I.E.) That is pretty much the Werewolf's purposeWell, there's reason for it, though.

In olden times when the barriers between the spirit world and the physical world weren't quite as concrete, big daddy Father Wolf was the king badass spirit of the borderlands between the two worlds. He hunted, he killed, and, in the case of Luna, he seduced. From their union came the half-spirit werewolves, who took a shine to their dad's position, and formed a great pack to serve as arbiter between the mortal world and the spirit world, and Luna blessed them.

However, when Father Wolf started getting old, the werewolves came to realize that they needed to take over, or they would skirt demise. So some (but not all of them) banded together and slew Father Wolf, and in turn, Luna cursed them all - even the ones who didn't do it. Of course, this pissed off those who didn't take part in the murder, and decided that the only way to free themselves from the curse would be to murder the REAL offenders. They became "the Pure." More on them later. Maybe.

Anyway, with their father dead, the werewolves took up his place, but the other spirits didn't quite take a liking to that... after all, Father Wolf was powerful enough to earn his spot. As such, more than a few of the werewolves need to use diplomacy, guile, et cetera.

As this is the World of Darkness and not the World of Shiny Things and Happy Puppies, there are plenty more negative spirits than positive in this modern age. :smalltongue: Stranger still, the barrier between worlds has solidified, and now the Gauntlet keeps all but the most powerful or versatile spirits from crossing into the mortal world, though they can still influence it quite easily... :smalleek:



Are you referring to Requiem for Rome?Yes.


Yes, the Camarilla did exist during the Roman Empire, but fell apart. Is there another book that infers the Cam still exists?Not as far as I know, but the Invictus book suggests that it's the one that's closest to the structure of the old Camarilla. (nudge, nudge) :smalltongue:


My example was only an example. It wasn't intended to be an exhaustive list. :smallsmile:Fair enough. :smallamused: