Help with bad concepts

[Little Brother]

One more person wants to join the group I'm DMing. The problem: He said he either wants to play a Healer(Yes, the class), or, basically, an incredibly lucky bastard.

But both of those suck...

How can I fix either of those? Is there a better way that isn't a cleric(He already said he doesn't want a cleric)?

Please help...

[Perryy]

If he's really adamant about those two concepts suggest again that he play a Cleric (that focuses on healing), take a few luck feats and have him prestige into Luckstealer as soon as he can, that seems to be the best of both worlds. I can't garauntee how effective it would be though.

[graeylin]

just curious, why do you feel the need to fix this guy's choices?

I would sit him down, explain why YOU think a healer is a poor choice, and then tell him "but it's your decision", and let him do his thing. It's his character.

As for the luck guy... have him choose a base class and work towards it. there's a couple feats to take that will help with luck, (and some spells) let him build his own lucky SOB from a base class.

[Darrin]

One more person wants to join the group I'm DMing. The problem: He said he either wants to play a Healer(Yes, the class), or, basically, an incredibly lucky bastard.

But both of those suck...

How can I fix either of those? Is there a better way that isn't a cleric(He already said he doesn't want a cleric)?


Hmm. Try steering him towards a Favored Soul?

The biggest headache with healer is probably their miniscule spell list. You can fix that somewhat with the usual methods... Sandshaper is probably the easiest. Magical Training (FRCS) would allow you to add a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium). Rainbow Servant is a bit of a stretch... Dragonsblood Pool and/or Alternative Source Spell might help there.

Once the Unicorn shows up, which is a bit of a wait, I believe the Healer starts to improve a little, since the Unicorn has some decent SLAs and is able to contribute more to melee.

As for Lucky Bastard... Complete Scoundrel has all those luck feats, which I personally consider more annoying and complex than they need to be, but they're there if he wants to use them. On a Rogue 5 chassis with Trapsmith 3 (Dungeonscape) + Fortune's Friend 5 (Complete Scoundrel) would probably be OK. If the Rogue doesn't want to dip Cleric to pick up the Luck domain, then steer him towards Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Luck Domain power. Planar Rogue 6 substitution level (Planar Handbook) can get him the 8 ranks of Knowledge: the Planes if need be.

[Little Brother]

Hmm. Try steering him towards a Favored Soul?

The biggest headache with healer is probably their miniscule spell list. You can fix that somewhat with the usual methods... Sandshaper is probably the easiest. Magical Training (FRCS) would allow you to add a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium). Rainbow Servant is a bit of a stretch... Dragonsblood Pool and/or Alternative Source Spell might help there.

Once the Unicorn shows up, which is a bit of a wait, I believe the Healer starts to improve a little, since the Unicorn has some decent SLAs and is able to contribute more to melee.

As for Lucky Bastard... Complete Scoundrel has all those luck feats, which I personally consider more annoying and complex than they need to be, but they're there if he wants to use them. On a Rogue 5 chassis with Trapsmith 3 (Dungeonscape) + Fortune's Friend 5 (Complete Scoundrel) would probably be OK. If the Rogue doesn't want to dip Cleric to pick up the Luck domain, then steer him towards Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Luck Domain power. Planar Rogue 6 substitution level (Planar Handbook) can get him the 8 ranks of Knowledge: the Planes if need be.These look nice, I'll run them by him and see what he thinks.

Thanks.

[Qwertystop]

For being lucky, you could pick some kind of spontaneous magic (or psionics) and just fluff it as luck.

[lunar2]

i used to have a source book called "book of roguish luck". it has an entire luck subsystem, 3 base classes, several prestige classes (including 1 based around luck) and a bunch of feats for rogues, bards, and other criminals. If it's not too much trouble or expense, you might want to look into getting that.

[DoctorGlock]

You could probably give him a factotum for a luck based character and reflavor the inspiration as luck. He will be a strong T3 and can pull things out of his rear the same way a luck based character will. Really, the factotum works for anything.

[Terazul]

For being lucky, you could pick some kind of spontaneous magic (or psionics) and just fluff it as luck.

Yeah. Psionics works great for useful but not immediately noticeable (due to the lack of somatic/verbal components, and ease of hiding displays) effects. He could pick up a few Clairsentience and Psychometabolism powers and use them for "luck". Catfall for jumping off of high things, Detect Hostile Intent for "just happening" to know those guards were sneaking up on you, etc.

[DoctorGlock]

Yeah. Psionics works great for useful but not immediately noticeable (due to the lack of somatic/verbal components, and ease of hiding displays) effects. He could pick up a few Clairsentience and Psychometabolism powers and use them for "luck". Catfall for jumping off of high things, Detect Hostile Intent for "just happening" to know those guards were sneaking up on you, etc.

Psychic rogue perhaps? Get the roguish charm, the luck powers and the skills to BS your way through life?

[Person_Man]

I have a homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12176960) for the Healer, if you're interested.

[Coidzor]

Reflavored/focused Cha-powered Factotum refluffed to be powered by his luck.

AKA, the Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175468) of the Man Your Man Could Smell Like. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCOMkbZw2XI)

[Deepbluediver]

The problem: He said he either wants to play a Healer(Yes, the class), or, basically, an incredibly lucky bastard.


Let him play a healer. Use the opportunity to throw the nastiest monsters at a party that you can.

I think that people say Healers are underpowered because its generally better (mechanically) to focus on killing a bad guy and recovering HP afterward than trying to recover it mid fight. Its apparent to me that these people have never played an MMORPG, where your meatshield/tank wouldn't survive 10 seconds without a steady stream of life-replenishment. Rather than having your party face off against something with a high AC that they chip away at bit by bit, find something in the Monster Manuals that can hit your Fighter or Druid or Cleric for half his HP every round, and give the healer something to do.

[Tokuhara]

Let him play a healer. Use the opportunity to throw the nastiest monsters at a party that you can.

I think that people say Healers are underpowered because its generally better (mechanically) to focus on killing a bad guy and recovering HP afterward than trying to recover it mid fight. Its apparent to me that these people have never played an MMORPG, where your meatshield/tank wouldn't survive 10 seconds without a steady stream of life-replenishment. Rather than having your party face off against something with a high AC that they chip away at bit by bit, find something in the Monster Manuals that can hit your Fighter or Druid or Cleric for half his HP every round, and give the healer something to do.

In an upcoming campaign, we have a Warforged Healer named Pain. He plans on going Healer 15/Sovereign Speaker 5. He doesn't understand why people feel pain, nor has he felt it. So his healing magic is like a hot cattle prod in your open wounds. The player tends to be funny, so I expect some humor

[Mooncrow]

Let him play a healer. Use the opportunity to throw the nastiest monsters at a party that you can.

I think that people say Healers are underpowered because its generally better (mechanically) to focus on killing a bad guy and recovering HP afterward than trying to recover it mid fight. Its apparent to me that these people have never played an MMORPG, where your meatshield/tank wouldn't survive 10 seconds without a steady stream of life-replenishment. Rather than having your party face off against something with a high AC that they chip away at bit by bit, find something in the Monster Manuals that can hit your Fighter or Druid or Cleric for half his HP every round, and give the healer something to do.

High AC monsters that can't hit your fighters are not the reason why healing is sub-optimal in D&D. In fact, it's basically for the same reason (to use an MMO example) that we run a disc priest instead of holy for heroic modes - preventing damage is more efficient in the action economy than healing damage - the only spell in D&D that occasionally breaks that rule is heal because it does enough healing to matter.

To use another, older MMO analogy, it's like in EQ, where you had the useful healer (cleric) with Complete Heal, and no other class bothered healing.

[Tokuhara]

Healer does have one advantage: Vs. Undead

Undead are hurt by healing. Healer has a lot of healing spells. Goodbye, Mr. Skeleton Mob

[Piggy Knowles]

Eh, Healer is actually pretty workable. Unicorns are cool, and they do get SOME offensive spells, including one of the most broken spells in the game at high levels.

Anyhow, Calm Emotions + Vow of Nonviolence is actually a pretty decent offensive schtick. Sure, undead are immune, but whatever, man - you're a Healer, you shouldn't have any problem with undead. Charisma's a secondary stat for you, so you may as well pump diplomacy, too. If you prestige into classes that grant domains (Church Inquisitor and Contemplative immediately come to mind), you'll give yourself a fair bit more flexibility.

Also, if you go for the vows from BoED, you get access to Sanctified spells, which gives you a fair bit more flexibility, including more status effecting spells (mass blinding effects work for Glitterdust, and they work even better for you), and some nice low-level buffs (Luminous Armor/Greater Luminous Armor and Celestial Aspect come to mind).

Anyhow, the Healer is a bad class if you play it passively, just running around behind people as they get whacked and hoping to erase the damage. But it's still a full-spellcasting class that can be made pretty decent. And come on, who doesn't want a unicorn for a pet?

[Little Brother]

BOED is a no.

Question: Would it make them broken if I made it 3/4 BAB and give it a few buffs(As in, the animal's stat buff, maybe a little something else)? What about spontaneous casting?

Thanks.

[Piggy Knowles]

BOED is a no.


That's a shame - Vow of Nonviolence + Calm Emotions and the various Sanctified debuff spells is probably my single favorite way to make the Healer into a worthwhile class.

Still, the rest of the suggestions stand. Pull in domains where ever possible, neutralize enemies with the spells you can, and have fun playing with your unicorn.


Question: Would it make them broken if I made it 3/4 BAB and give it a few buffs(As in, the animal's stat buff, maybe a little something else)? What about spontaneous casting?

Thanks.

I guess that depends on the buffs you give them, and the level of optimization you are shooting for. To stay within the flavor of the class, I'd be inclined to keep 1/2 BAB (if he actively wants to play a Healer, I would assume he's not too interested in swinging his sword around), and mostly add in defensive buffs, plus more spells like Calm Emotions.

Making it a spontaneous caster a la Beguiler/Warmage would be a wonderful thing, by the way. Its spell list is so small that you really wouldn't be hurting anyone by doing so. I'd probably do that no matter what.

[DoctorGlock]

Note that the healer has the ability to prepare spells from the sanctified lists. This will drastically increase the player's abilities. Likewise the dynamic priest feat in dragonlance will reduce the players MAD a bit. That's a good start and there are probably more ways to add to the spell list.

[Piggy Knowles]

Note that the healer has the ability to prepare spells from the sanctified lists. This will drastically increase the player's abilities. Likewise the dynamic priest feat in dragonlance will reduce the players MAD a bit. That's a good start and there are probably more ways to add to the spell list.

Sadly, I don't think that Sanctified spells have been printed anywhere outside of BoED, so if the DM says that's out, then that's probably not an option.

Anyhow, Little Brother, if you're interested in expanding the spell list, I just pulled up the SRD and marked down every spell that I thought could be added onto the Healer's spell list while keeping the same flavor.

My basic thoughts were...


If it was a buff that gave a defensive bonus, with a somewhat divine feel, I added it. No buffs that gave real offensive bonuses. No "tricky" buffs that work by fooling the opponent (Mirror Image, Blur, etc.).

Added on the Charisma, Constitution, and Wisdom boosting "animal" spells.

Added on some utility spells that had a very divine-influence sort of feel, but that were not combat-focused spells. Water Walk, Whispering Wind, Helping Hand, Speak with Dead - that sort of thing.

Gave a few (but not many) spells that fit the flavor of Calm Emotions - spells that aren't attacks, but that convince a creature to stop fighting. Nothing tricky. No Charm Monster, for instance, since that artifically forces someone to be your friend.


Anyhow, here's what I came up with. Again, these are SRD spells that, were I the DM, I would probably add to the Healer's spell list. It doesn't make it anywhere near the power level of a wizard or cleric, but it has at least something to do in most circumstances...

1- Entropic Shield, Feather Fall, Hide from Undead, Shield of Faith

2- Bear's Endurance, Consecrate, Daze Monster, Eagle's Splendor, Enthrall, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Whispering Wind

3- Dispel Magic, Helping Hand, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Vestment, Protection from Energy, Speak with Dead, Water Walk

4- Air Walk, Secure Shelter, Sending, Spell Immunity, Tongues

5- Commune, Dream, Hallow, Spell Resistance

6- Bears Endurance (Mass), Dispel Magic (Greater), Eagle's Splendor (Mass), Geas/Quest, Owl's Wisdom (Mass), Wind Walk, Word of Recall

7- Refuge, Veil

8- Spell Immunity (Greater)

9- Sympathy

[Darrin]

Sadly, I don't think that Sanctified spells have been printed anywhere outside of BoED, so if the DM says that's out, then that's probably not an option.


Might want to check Champions of Valor...

[Kenneth]

BOED is a no.

Question: Would it make them broken if I made it 3/4 BAB and give it a few buffs(As in, the animal's stat buff, maybe a little something else)? What about spontaneous casting?

Thanks.

isn't that basically what a favored soul is?

[Little Brother]

Sadly, I don't think that Sanctified spells have been printed anywhere outside of BoED, so if the DM says that's out, then that's probably not an option.

Anyhow, Little Brother, if you're interested in expanding the spell list, I just pulled up the SRD and marked down every spell that I thought could be added onto the Healer's spell list while keeping the same flavor.

My basic thoughts were...


If it was a buff that gave a defensive bonus, with a somewhat divine feel, I added it. No buffs that gave real offensive bonuses. No "tricky" buffs that work by fooling the opponent (Mirror Image, Blur, etc.).

Added on the Charisma, Constitution, and Wisdom boosting "animal" spells.

Added on some utility spells that had a very divine-influence sort of feel, but that were not combat-focused spells. Water Walk, Whispering Wind, Helping Hand, Speak with Dead - that sort of thing.

Gave a few (but not many) spells that fit the flavor of Calm Emotions - spells that aren't attacks, but that convince a creature to stop fighting. Nothing tricky. No Charm Monster, for instance, since that artifically forces someone to be your friend.


Anyhow, here's what I came up with. Again, these are SRD spells that, were I the DM, I would probably add to the Healer's spell list. It doesn't make it anywhere near the power level of a wizard or cleric, but it has at least something to do in most circumstances...

1- Entropic Shield, Feather Fall, Hide from Undead, Shield of Faith

2- Bear's Endurance, Consecrate, Daze Monster, Eagle's Splendor, Enthrall, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Whispering Wind

3- Dispel Magic, Helping Hand, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Vestment, Protection from Energy, Speak with Dead, Water Walk

4- Air Walk, Secure Shelter, Sending, Spell Immunity, Tongues

5- Commune, Dream, Hallow, Spell Resistance

6- Bears Endurance (Mass), Dispel Magic (Greater), Eagle's Splendor (Mass), Geas/Quest, Owl's Wisdom (Mass), Wind Walk, Word of Recall

7- Refuge, Veil

8- Spell Immunity (Greater)

9- SympathyThis was almost exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

[Hawkings]

Why shouldn't the guy play a healer? Maybe he wants to play a non combat oriented class, nothing wrong with that.

Healer is awesome if you prestige into Combat medic from Heroes of Battle (p99), infact I'd swear the two were designed for each other.

The requirements to be a combat medic is really easy and it gives existing caster level with every one, you get ref saves and mobility and evasion like a rogue, plus you can add secondary effects to each of your heals getting free sanctuary, boost to reflex save or maximized aid affect with each casting of heal per day equal to level+wis.


Another thing to consider for a player not looking to chop off heads is the Apostle of peace, I know you said BOED is a no but if you can somehow manage it the class looks great with healer and combat medic.

Just imagine healer going aposle of peace then combat medic, they all go off wisdom so there's no messy stat conflicts.
If I'm not mistaken on how prestige classes work you could choose to continue the AoP spell progression, unless healer's is somehow better, to be honest I haven't really read the spell lists recently.

Really if you can reconsider the BOED at least enough for that it might be a half decent noncombat class.

Otherwise just hit Combat Medic, maybe use it to extend the spell casting of a sorcerer dip to get the requirement caster levels and go mystic theurge or something, can't say for certain since I don't know the class to well, just tossing out ideas.

[Deepbluediver]

High AC monsters that can't hit your fighters are not the reason why healing is sub-optimal in D&D. In fact, it's basically for the same reason (to use an MMO example) that we run a disc priest instead of holy for heroic modes - preventing damage is more efficient in the action economy than healing damage - the only spell in D&D that occasionally breaks that rule is heal because it does enough healing to matter.

To use another, older MMO analogy, it's like in EQ, where you had the useful healer (cleric) with Complete Heal, and no other class bothered healing.

The suggestion was less about AC and more about Hit Point totals. My understanding is that most people didn't like Healers because it was entirely possible to survive an encounter without any healing until after every enemy was dead.
If you are facing off against an enemy with enough HP that it will probably survive for at least 5 rounds, but can also do enough damage so that it can kill your front-line combatants in 2 or 3 rounds, a healer becomes much more valuable unless you want your campaign to be very short. I'm assuming that the DM knows exactly or at least very well what his partie's capabilities are, and I was encouraging him to raise the CR of an encounter so that the party likely wouldn't survive WITHOUT the intervention of the healer.

I would assume that with all the MMs, Homebrews, and half-whatever templates out there, its possible to find SOMETHING that your party can't entirely circumvent.

[Prime32]

The suggestion was less about AC and more about Hit Point totals. My understanding is that most people didn't like Healers because it was entirely possible to survive an encounter without any healing until after every enemy was dead.
If you are facing off against an enemy with enough HP that it will probably survive for at least 5 rounds, but can also do enough damage so that it can kill your front-line combatants in 2 or 3 rounds, a healer becomes much more valuable unless you want your campaign to be very short.Nope.

Let's say that with 2 guys attacking the monster it takes 3 rounds to kill it, and with 3 guys attacking it takes 2 rounds. Most healing spells restore less hp in a round than the monster deals damage. Thus with 3 attackers the monster deals 2 rounds of damage, and with 2 attackers + 1 healer the monster deals 2.5 rounds of damage.

Plus, the longer the monster is alive the higher the chance that a critical or failed saving throw will appear; the more randomness, the more likely the underdog (the monster) will win. Thus, even if the healer could heal damage as fast as it comes, another attacker would still be preferable.


Most people here have played MMOs. The reason healers are vital there is because they have spells which restore all your hp at once, or a fixed percentage, and can heal faster than enemies deal damage. D&D 3.5 doesn't have the first (though 3.0 did with heal), its healing spells restore a fixed amount so they get less useful as you gain levels, and you heal slower than enemies deal damage. Heck, the only decent area heal is an lv9 spell!


EDIT:

Healer does have one advantage: Vs. Undead

Undead are hurt by healing. Healer has a lot of healing spells. Goodbye, Mr. Skeleton MobCompare flame strike to cure serious wounds, both lv4 spells at CL7. Flame strike does 7d6 damage (average 24.5) in an area from far away, cure deals 3d8+7 (average 20.5) to one target who you have to touch.
You're better off just blasting them normally.

[Tokuhara]

Compare flame strike to cure serious wounds, both lv4 spells at CL7. Flame strike does 7d6 damage (average 24.5) in an area from far away, cure deals 3d8+7 (average 20.5) to one target who you have to touch.
You're better off just blasting them normally.

It works in a pinch. If the mummy's gaze hits everyone but the healer, you can hurt the mummy. While yes, it's less damage, some > none.

[Deepbluediver]

Most people here have played MMOs. The reason healers are vital there is because they have spells which restore all your hp at once, or a fixed percentage, and can heal faster than enemies deal damage. D&D 3.5 doesn't have the first (though 3.0 did with heal), its healing spells restore a fixed amount so they get less useful as you gain levels, and you heal slower than enemies deal damage. Heck, the only decent area heal is an lv9 spell!


EDIT:
Compare flame strike to cure serious wounds, both lv4 spells at CL7. Flame strike does 7d6 damage (average 24.5) in an area from far away, cure deals 3d8+7 (average 20.5) to one target who you have to touch.
You're better off just blasting them normally.

Ok, I understand that better know. I still think there are situations where it might be workable, but it would obviously be a very fine line.
Has anyone ever tried doing a homebrewed version of the healer that is actually powerful enough (on the healing side of things) to make it worthwhile to play one?

[noparlpf]

If all you want to do is heal, Healer isn't that bad. On the other hand, if all you want to do is heal, you should just buy some wands.

Last time I played a Healer (+PrCs) it turned out (as usual; you'd think I'd learn my lesson) that the party was all-evil. So when they tried to kill the preachy religious not-a-Cleric-dammit, they actually were completely unable to because I was too good at healing myself and my movement speed was higher than theirs.

My suggestion is, if he wants to play a Healer, let him cast spontaneously. I feel like the Healer was supposed to be the Warmage of healing spells. Otherwise why not play a Cleric with Augment Healing and a unicorn cohort? That ought to at least help a little, and opens up some neat opportunities later on.

[Darrin]

Has anyone ever tried doing a homebrewed version of the healer that is actually powerful enough (on the healing side of things) to make it worthwhile to play one?

I think Person_Man kinda handed that to you one a silver platter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12176960) back at post #11 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12176918&postcount=11).

[Deepbluediver]

I think Person_Man kinda handed that to you one a silver platter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12176960) back at post #11 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12176918&postcount=11).

Ah, sorry, I missed that.

Obviously because his post was to short and to-the-point. If it was larger and full of funny anecdotes I would have noticed. :smalltongue:

[Elfinor]

In addition to Piggy Knowles' list, there's a list of suggested Spell Compendium additions and other healer optimisation suggestions in the Healer's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=printpage;topic=6849.0).

Since you're DMing, you could also increase the power of Augment Healing and cure spells e.g.
Cure Light Wounds now heals 1d12 damage +3/2 levels, to a maximum of +9.
Cure Moderate Wounds now heals 2d12 damage +3/2 levels, to a maximum of +15.
Cure Serious Wounds now heals 3d12 damage +3/2 levels, to a maximum of +21.
Cure Critical Wounds now heals 4d12 damage +3/2 levels, to a maximum of +30 etc.

(Extract from my current, untested:smallannoyed: house rule revision draft). This example would probably still only have a minor impact on its effectiveness in a 'standard format' campaign but you're the DM, go nuts:smallwink:

Healing in general tends to increase in usefulness if the PC's are kept busy (sense of urgency etc.), far away from civilization/healing item merchants and/or in a lower WBL/magic campaign. This may involve quite a radical change in your DMing style, and hence could make other players (and yourself!) uncomfortable. It's almost definitely not worth doing it for one player but it could be an idea to hold on to for later.

[lunar2]

give the healer spontaneous casting, drop the cure and heal spells one level each (and remove cure minor entirely), and change the touch range versions to close range, removing the touch attack part.

[NOhara24]

or, basically, an incredibly lucky bastard.



There's a class in Complete Scoundrel, Fortune's Friend. The fluff is actually really cool, someone who actually knows that luck is on their side and relies on it to get through their day-to-day routine.

[Piggy Knowles]

Regarding the lucky bastard, Kell from Brilliant Gameologists has posted this build a while back, which has always been one of my favorites. Might be a bit much for the player, but it certainly fulfills that archetype:

The Fortune-Teller -- He Tells Fortune What To Do
Cleric (Luck and War) 1 / Wizard 4 / Runesmith 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / Fatespinner 4 / Fortune's Friend 4

Here's what he had to say about it:


I've played a build similar to this, and it's actually rather amusing to play. Very amusing. The sheer amount of rerolls you get can be pretty insane, and when the DM smirks as his power-attacking-for-full red wyrm rolls a natural 20 and is about to x3 crit you... you just nicely ask him to reroll the die. Or when you roll a natural 1 on a save-or-die, and you realize you have five different ways of getting out of it (Luck Domain, Luck Feat, Luck Feat that turns 1s into 20s, Fortune's Friend, Not This Time (Living Greyhawk only))... you just have to smile.

When you can control randomness to that extent, it's actually a very powerful mechanic. In higher level play, if you can average out all the dice rolls, it takes almost all the risk out of the game -- people don't die from 8s and 12s; they die from the 1s and 20s. With no 1s and 20s, the party cleric can estimate pretty accurately how much health everyone is going to take each round ("ok that dragon does 80 a round...") and compensate for it. But when you get crit, and that 70 point bite turns into a 210 point bite... that's when the tank dies, and the whole thing goes straight into the pot. Controlling randomness is incredibly powerful.

Additionally, Fortune's Fools can take an extra swift action a round (as long as it's a luck maneuver), which is key for gishes who should be casting quickened spells every round. And if they want to go nova for a round, Fatespinners can boost the DC of a wail of the banshee by 4, and then force a reroll on a survivor. Or he can just spend his spin on attack roll bonuses or saves.