Good 3.P build for a Mul???

[Tokuhara]

Hello Playground!

So it's official. DM nixed my Shifter Packlord idea. So I will leave it up to the playground.

The character is a Mul (son of a Neanderthal and Duergar) who was a former slave, forced into gladatorial combat. He escaped and has started a resistance.


Mul Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Charisma
Rocksteady: Can move 30 ft, but does not suffer from Encumberance/Armor speed loss
Dwarf and Human Blooded: Counts as a Dwarf and a Human
Improved Natural Healing: Heal damage at twice normal rate. 10th Level: get Fast Healing 1. At 15th: Get Fast Healing 3
Inborn Power: 3 PP
PLA: Expansion 1/day, Hammer 1/day
Psionic Aptitude

Goals:
Primary Melee
Suppliment Psionics
Not a "Squishy" (Dedicated Caster)

Allowed Content:
Any 3.0, 3.5, PF
Any Dragon Magazine, with Issue #
Homebrew is generally frowned upon, but will be accepted on a case-by-case basis

Starting Level:
We'll be starting around 5 and heading into "Nosebleed Territory" (Epic)

Special Thanks:
Everyone here who helps me out

[Tokuhara]

Anybody? I'm hoping to have the character ready by Friday

[Doc Roc]

Honestly?

Ardent 10/Phrenic Slayer 10 will see you well. At 17 BAB, Full ML, Excellent stats, and just really cool stuff? It's hard to argue with. Dominant Ideal makes it even more compelling.

An excellent alternative is a Ruby Knight Vindicator build, particularly one with a DMM:Persist focus. The old ruby shadow (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium&post_num=264#338391974) is quite good, though probably not what you want. It's a good example of type though.

Both of these are gonna be pretty tank-core.

If you want, Legend's Barbarian can be back-ported to 3.x with almost no effort, and is vastly cooler than stock barbar from pathfinder or 3.5.

Finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the Imperious Command + Intimidating Rage + Instantaneous Rage combo, augmented by the excellent Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Let me know which of these interests you!

[Tokuhara]

Honestly?

Ardent 10/Phrenic Slayer 10 will see you well. At 17 BAB, Full ML, Excellent stats, and just really cool stuff? It's hard to argue with. Dominant Ideal makes it even more compelling.

An excellent alternative is a Ruby Knight Vindicator build, particularly one with a DMM:Persist focus. The old ruby shadow (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium&post_num=264#338391974) is quite good, though probably not what you want. It's a good example of type though.

Both of these are gonna be pretty tank-core.

If you want, Legend's Barbarian can be back-ported to 3.x with almost no effort, and is vastly cooler than stock barbar from pathfinder or 3.5.

Finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the Imperious Command + Intimidating Rage + Instantaneous Rage combo, augmented by the excellent Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Let me know which of these interests you!

I want to be gentle on my DM. He has never had a psionic character.

Ruby Knight Windicator has already made our former DM have a stroke

Legend's Barbarian?

[Doc Roc]

I want to be gentle on my DM. He has never had a psionic character.

Ruby Knight Windicator has already made our former DM have a stroke

Legend's Barbarian?

In my sig, you'll find a link to a d20 system. While the formal release is on the 25th, we've been in stable beta for a while now, and much of the content can be back-ported to 3.x.

I don't think that the ardent/slayer build is particularly exotic, though it's definitely Tier 2 at the lowest. What are you looking for, in terms of raw power? Give me some clearer goalposts.

[Tokuhara]

In my sig, you'll find a link to a d20 system. While the formal release is on the 25th, we've been in stable beta for a while now, and much of the content can be back-ported to 3.x.

I don't think that the ardent/slayer build is particularly exotic, though it's definitely Tier 2 at the lowest. What are you looking for, in terms of raw power? Give me some clearer goalposts.

I'm looking to be the primary melee/Mr. Damage but not overshadow the party's wizard/healer/assassin/tank/other. The party is:

Half-Elf Assassin 5 (Homebrewed to base class)
Warforged Healer 5 (Ironically named Pain)
Illumian Truenamer 1/Wizard 4 (focused on Word spells)
Incarnate Maug RHD 2/Paladin of Freedom 3
Warforged Fighter 5 (Named Karn, the Father of Machines. Player is a huge MtG fan and decided to play a Vile Fighter symbolizing if Karn had become a Phyrexian at the end of the Scars block. Going into WFJ and Souleater)

[herrhauptmann]

Anybody? I'm hoping to have the character ready by Friday

3 hours man, in the middle of the day. A lot of us are based in ConUS, and have work or school.

If you don't want psionics, why not go for a quorbred (secrets of sarlona)? Respectable PR (and SR if transparency is used), some bonus feats, and other stuff. It does have some LA though.

You could start picking up the mageslayer feats in addition to your standard melee feats. Being such a dedicated anti-caster/psion should help you remain relevant in later levels without just relying on Leap Attack/Shocktrooper to deal lots of damage. You'll still have access to UMD, but quorbred says you cannot use psionic items (so I assume no "Use universal device or custom psi items")

[Tokuhara]

3 hours man, in the middle of the day. A lot of us are based in ConUS, and have work or school.

If you don't want psionics, why not go for a quorbred (secrets of sarlona)? Respectable PR (and SR if transparency is used), some bonus feats, and other stuff. It does have some LA though.

You could start picking up the mageslayer feats in addition to your standard melee feats. Being such a dedicated anti-caster/psion should help you remain relevant in later levels without just relying on Leap Attack/Shocktrooper to deal lots of damage. You'll still have access to UMD, but quorbred says you cannot use psionic items (so I assume no "Use universal device or custom psi items")

I want some psionics, but not so much that I shift into squishy territory (note: I understand that after wizard/psion gets fly etc., they are god, but it's a term used by our group). DM has created a world that all of the campaign settings (including a homebrewed MtG world) are in one world and all magic/psionics/etc. is controlled/created by a Nexus Dragon (Immortal's Handbook: Beastiary) with Divine Ranks. It essentially regulates all powers across the multiverse. The campaign is themed around a Great Elemental War that has spilled onto the Material Plane. Our goal is to end the war, at the beck and call of his Lv 100 character (who is a deity, and a Drow Demilich with 100 class levels including Sorcerer, Wilder, and other insanity. He killed Vecna and took his position as God of Banned Knowledge after he finished the Codex of the Infinite Planes). So somehow 6 level 5 characters are supposed to end a war that spans >5 planes...

The party (as stated above) is a generally well-spread party. The assassin is a Thayan assassin who hunts rebels, the Healer is a Greyhawk champion who doesn't understand pain, thus his healing magic is uncomortable and will be riding a black unicorn, the Maug is an Eberron champion of the Silver Flame who himself was originally created by a Were-Murder of Crows Gnome Artificer, and Karn is from the MtG world, when his Planeswalker spark was taken from him, so now he hunts to re-obtain it and rule New Phyrexia with an iron fist. I am from Dark Sun, and am a Spartacus figure who will fit the "Comic Relief" of the party.

So as I said above, I want to dabble in psionics so I have an option against tougher beasties, but can still use a sharp impliment to jab their eyes out.


Note: I forgot what time it was. My bad y'all

[Doc Roc]

You could start picking up the mageslayer feats in addition to your standard melee feats. Being such a dedicated anti-caster/psion should help you remain relevant in later levels without just relying on Leap Attack/Shocktrooper to deal lots of damage.

Only one of those feats is any good, and it's simply not worth it. There are better things to spend feats on.

I guess you could try Warmind? It's pretty awful... I'm pretty sure that ardents are the coolest thing, but I am a little biased.

[Lateral]

I guess you could try Warmind? It's pretty awful...

What, are you kidding? It's an awesome class.

[Tokuhara]

The prerequisites are easy(ish) for Warmind, and it's very much what I like. How can I get this as a melee-monster? And remember: I want to use my ability score bonuses to my advantage

[herrhauptmann]

Only one of those feats is any good, and it's simply not worth it. There are better things to spend feats on.

I guess you could try Warmind? It's pretty awful... I'm pretty sure that ardents are the coolest thing, but I am a little biased.
PMP is a little meh. Mageslayer by itself has the usual issue of trying to get within reach of the caster. Overall, I still think the chain is useful.

[Tokuhara]

PMP is a little meh. Mageslayer by itself has the usual issue of trying to get within reach of the caster. Overall, I still think the chain is useful.

Hang on: If I took the Mageslayer feat chain before I gained caster/manifester levels, do I lose the ML/CL I just gained? Could circumvent the normal issues of the feat(s)

[Lateral]

I've kind of always wanted to build a character who focused on getting as large a reach as possible (through Inhuman Reach, Extended Reach, Deformity (Tall), Reach Weapons, being large or even huge, and so on) and having four levels of Knight for Bulwark of Defense, so that he pretty much covers the entire battlefield with his reach with the whole thing being difficult terrain. The Mage Slayer line would be pretty cool for that, too- something like Knight 4/ Psychic Warrior 16, since this build would be pretty feat-starved, Psychic Warriors get Expansion so they can become Huge to gain even crazier reach, and transparency doesn't apply to feats so the Mage Slayer line's reduction to CL doesn't apply to your manifesting.


Hang on: If I took the Mageslayer feat chain before I gained caster/manifester levels, do I lose the ML/CL I just gained? Could circumvent the normal issues of the feat(s)
You don't lose ML at all; feats are one of the few exceptions to the transparency rules.

[Tokuhara]

I've kind of always wanted to build a character who focused on getting as large a reach as possible (through Inhuman Reach, Extended Reach, Deformity (Tall), Reach Weapons, being large or even huge, and so on) and having four levels of Knight for Bulwark of Defense, so that he pretty much covers the entire battlefield with his reach with the whole thing being difficult terrain. The Mage Slayer line would be pretty cool for that, too- something like Knight 4/ Psychic Warrior 16, since this build would be pretty feat-starved, Psychic Warriors get Expansion so they can become Huge to gain even crazier reach, and transparency doesn't apply to feats so the Mage Slayer line's reduction to CL doesn't apply to your manifesting.


You don't lose ML at all; feats are one of the few exceptions to the transparency rules.

My thought is:

Something X/Warmind 10/Sanctified Mind 5

Edit: The idea is that he feels that sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, and since He feels that the Nexus Dragon caused his lands to be poisoned by magic (and to a few new Psionic Beasties), he must cleanse them. He will recite the Hakumen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INWmoRKI6bU) Quote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxdUSUussiQ&feature=related) before every battle, causing him to lose his first turn in combat and when he kills a major enemy

[herrhauptmann]

Hang on: If I took the Mageslayer feat chain before I gained caster/manifester levels, do I lose the ML/CL I just gained? Could circumvent the normal issues of the feat(s)

In this one case ML != CL (as stated).
Of course, you might be able to bypass it as an arcane caster who takes 5 levels in abjurant champion. Was recently making a gish who had those feats, then finished up AC. With that, I'd lose CL, then just set my CL to equal BAB anyway. (DM said to apply bonuses in most beneficial order)

And if you're not deadset on the neanderthal, you could play a Karsite (ToM). They're supposed to be normal humans, who categorically cannot cast arcane/divine even with levels in a casting class. Though scroll/wand use should be possible.
Additionally, the Karsite entry includes some info about adapting the Karsite to other races. Such as a Karsite human+elf= Karsite half elf. So a karsite neanderthal might be possible Still get the SR/PR (1 less than quorbred), and everytime you hit someone in melee, there's a chance that you'll suppress the magic of their weapon(s), armor, or shield for a round.

Depending on the circumstances, that should totally shut down an enemy warrior. (Lifedrinker weapon and soulfire armor. Suppress the armor, and suddenly they can't hit you for a round without losing levels.)



My thought is:
He will recite the Hakumen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INWmoRKI6bU) Quote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxdUSUussiQ&feature=related) before every battle, causing him to lose his first turn in combat and when he kills a major enemy
Hmmm, speaking is a free action. I love the idea of saying this quote every time you fight or kill, but that's a pretty big mechanical penalty you're giving yourself.
So you'll say it at the start of a fight, and if you lose surprise round, that's 2 rounds of getting whomped on just to say something. And then if you kill someone, you'll what, end your turn early with a flashy move and spend the next round saying the line?
Please, for the life of your character, and the sanity of your fellow players, don't. They're going to be very upset if their damage dealer completely misses half of every fight.

In game mechanics, that's a HUGE flaw you're giving yourself. It's cool, flavorful, but would result in killing your character. It's a bigger effect than any of the SRD flaws.

[Tokuhara]

In this one case ML != CL (as stated).
Of course, you might be able to bypass it as an arcane caster who takes 5 levels in abjurant champion. Was recently making a gish who had those feats, then finished up AC. With that, I'd lose CL, then just set my CL to equal BAB anyway. (DM said to apply bonuses in most beneficial order)

And if you're not deadset on the neanderthal, you could play a Karsite (ToM). They're supposed to be normal humans, who categorically cannot cast arcane/divine even with levels in a casting class. Though scroll/wand use should be possible.
Additionally, the Karsite entry includes some info about adapting the Karsite to other races. Such as a Karsite human+elf= Karsite half elf. So a karsite neanderthal might be possible Still get the SR/PR (1 less than quorbred), and everytime you hit someone in melee, there's a chance that you'll suppress the magic of their weapon(s), armor, or shield for a round.

Depending on the circumstances, that should totally shut down an enemy warrior. (Lifedrinker weapon and soulfire armor. Suppress the armor, and suddenly they can't hit you for a round without losing levels.)

The idea is that I'd be a Karsite/Dwarf hybrid for Mul? Sweet...

Any way I can get Hakumen's Sword translated into d&d terms?

Edit: I'd only lose my first turn, and DM said I get a morale bonus to everything for it. Basically, my Ego Massage makes me more powerful. It's a bonus = 1/2 my level

[herrhauptmann]

The idea is that I'd be a Karsite/Dwarf hybrid for Mul? Sweet...

Any way I can get Hakumen's Sword translated into d&d terms?

Edit: I'd only lose my first turn, and DM said I get a morale bonus to everything for it. Basically, my Ego Massage makes me more powerful. It's a bonus = 1/2 my level

1) Ayup. Doublecheck with the DM though.
Where are there rules for a human/dwarf pairing? I've seen one or two 'half humans' mentioned in various D&D fiction, but never an approved set of stat changes.
2)Would love to help, but that video you linked doesn't seem to like my computer. It fritzes in and out on me, so I only hear parts of it.
3)Cool. I saw an old 3rd party PrC that did much the same (but a lot weaker) if he saluted the primary enemy before a fight, always liked the idea.

[Tokuhara]

1) Ayup. Doublecheck with the DM though.
Where are there rules for a human/dwarf pairing? I've seen one or two 'half humans' mentioned in various D&D fiction, but never an approved set of stat changes.
2)Would love to help, but that video you linked doesn't seem to like my computer. It fritzes in and out on me, so I only hear parts of it.
3)Cool. I saw an old 3rd party PrC that did much the same (but a lot weaker) if he saluted the primary enemy before a fight, always liked the idea.

1) Mul (http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Mul) are from Dark Sun. 3.5 never "officially" released DS stuffs, but someone made a DS Campaign Setting. That's the version I'm using, adjusted for PF

2)http://static.mangadrawing.net/users/imagecache/image_display/admin/image/Blazblue.Hakumen.5a1a14f7718d7e0e9cd62639d5f0ccf6. jpg It lets him strike like lightning and is counterattack-focused

3) Kind of the same idea. It could also count for Intimidation

Edit: The entire Hakumen Quote:



I am the White Void!
I am the Cold Steel!
I am the Just Sword!
With blade in hand shall I reap the sins of this world
And cleanse them in the Fires of Destruction!
I am Hakumen!
The End Has Come!!

[Doc Roc]

Imperious Command. The definitive sit-down-and-shut-up effect.

[Tokuhara]

Imperious Command. The definitive sit-down-and-shut-up effect.

Definitely. And I can only use it for that quote (minus my name isn't Hakumen, or is it? :smallconfused:)!

[Doc Roc]

Definitely. And I can only use it for that quote (minus my name isn't Hakumen, or is it? :smallconfused:)!

Also check out Legend Barbarian. Obviously, I think it's pretty good.

[Tokuhara]

Also check out Legend Barbarian. Obviously, I think it's pretty good.

Legend is bloody confusing. Paths? Huh?

[Tokuhara]

Update:

The Build looks like this:

Race: Mul
Class: Champion of Freedom 5 (Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed)/War Mind 10/Sanctified Mind 5

The class is Paladin, but for a cause, not a god. As long as I fight for what I find to be morally right, while obeying the law, I am good. The class is pretty good, giving me essentially a spell-free domain with abilities, as well as:

• Special: The champion of freedom has Disable Device as class skills.
• 1st Level—Freedom’s Will (Su): The champion of freedom gains
a +2 resistance bonus to spells of the enchantment school.
• 5th Level—Freedom’s Strength (Ex): The champion enjoys a +1
luck bonus to attack and damage rolls when in a fight to free
someone or something from captivity, or against an oppressive
force or figure (The DM should be very strict in determining
when a combat situation directly relates to freeing a
captive or fighting an oppressor. For example, the champion
gains the bonus in all fights against an oppressive overlord’s
troops or against the dragon guarding the kidnapped townsfolk,
but not against the overlord’s brother who has nothing
to do with the regime or during random encounters on the
way to the cave where the townsfolk are imprisoned.)

in my case.

I'm focused on being a champion who faces opression from "criminal" elements (which include corrupt political leaders and nobles with magic), as well as Psionic/Magic/Incarnum/Vestige abominations. Basically, anything that tries to cause its own rise to supremacy, he wants it dead and unable to be brought back. He also disagrees with slavery. Basically, he has his own moral code he follows (allowing him to be focused on personal freedoms, and yet be lawful) and defends personal freedom.

I plan on using a Hakumen-themed greatsword (or Great Falchion) primarilly, carrying a handaxe when using my called shield, and throwing axes instead of a bow (bows are for sissies)

Now, feats and traits are the part I have a weakness for. Any help? I get 2 Flaws and 2 Traits

[Tokuhara]

Feats so far:

1) Iron Will [Prerequisite for Sanctified Mind], Soul of the North (Flaw: Inattentive), Iron Mind (Flaw: Shaky)

3) Mage Slayer

6)Latent Psionics: Vicious [Mind Thrust]

9) Imperious Command

12) Power Attack

15) Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat)
18) Cleave

Race Modification: Ice-Dwelling Half-Karsite Half-Duergar Mul

Traits: Zest for Battle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/zest-for-battle); Scholar of Ruins (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/scholar-of-ruins-human)

[herrhauptmann]

Can't you get iron will from visiting the Otyugh Hole? (Or something similar)

[Tokuhara]

Can't you get iron will from visiting the Otyugh Hole? (Or something similar)

DM said no to Otyugh Holes and other cheap ways to get feats. He banned that a long time ago

[Doc Roc]

Deep impact is never worth it compared to leap attack or shock trooper. Even without multipliers stacking up, shock trooper is just solid gold. What are your stats?

[Tokuhara]

Deep impact is never worth it compared to leap attack or shock trooper. Even without multipliers stacking up, shock trooper is just solid gold. What are your stats?

6 18's. Yeah, it's high power, but it works for our group

[Doc Roc]

6 18's. Yeah, it's high power, but it works for our group

Meh, that's not what I'd call a signifier of power level, but okay. Why aren't you taking Imperious Command?

[Tokuhara]

Meh, that's not what I'd call a signifier of power level, but okay. Why aren't you taking Imperious Command?

No real room. Unless I could drop something truly ****ty.

[Doc Roc]

No real room. Unless I could drop something truly ****ty.

Greater Psionic Weapon is truly awful. You could make an argument that deep impact's not great too, since it requires focus.

[Tokuhara]

Greater Psionic Weapon is truly awful. You could make an argument that deep impact's not great too, since it requires focus.

GPW is +4d6 damage for expending Psionic Focus. Not a bad melee deal. So I'm assuming the consensus is that the Psionic Weapon tree isn't worth the sections of paper/spae of data is was printed on?

[Doc Roc]

GPW is +4d6 damage for expending Psionic Focus. Not a bad melee deal. So I'm assuming the consensus is that the Psionic Weapon tree isn't worth the sections of paper/spae of data is was printed on?

Deep impact isn't bad, but you'd be better served reducing action cost for focusing or getting other tricks. Making numbers go up is pretty much one of the weakest roles for psionics ever conceived. It's like using a 64 node cluster to play checkers.

[Tokuhara]

Deep impact isn't bad, but you'd be better served reducing action cost for focusing or getting other tricks. Making numbers go up is pretty much one of the weakest roles for psionics ever conceived. It's like using a 64 node cluster to play checkers.

So if I drop all three, I can grab Mage Slayer and Imperious Command. Now I'm one shy. Not a huge Shock Trooper Fan (the group has a house rule that Rule of Cool > RAW, especially with attacks. Our Assassin throws Bladed Fans for Vecna's Sake!) What else is worthwhile?

[Doc Roc]

So if I drop all three, I can grab Mage Slayer and Imperious Command. Now I'm one shy. Not a huge Shock Trooper Fan (the group has a house rule that Rule of Cool > RAW, especially with attacks. Our Assassin throws Bladed Fans for Vecna's Sake!) What else is worthwhile?

You'll want the Never Outnumbered skill trick. And some action cost reduction for intimidate.... or just a belt of battle.

other feats I like... eh, I'm sure someone else has ideas.

[Tokuhara]

You'll want the Never Outnumbered skill trick. And some action cost reduction for intimidate.... or just a belt of battle.

other feats I like... eh, I'm sure someone else has ideas.

DM is giving me a Belt of Magnificence. And definately worth spending 2 skill points on Never Outnumbered

[Doc Roc]

DM is giving me a Belt of Magnificence. And definately worth spending 2 skill points on Never Outnumbered

Then you'll need extra actions from somewhere. Psionics can provide, though the degree of mileage you get will depend on your tolerance for Real Ultimate Power.

[Tokuhara]

Then you'll need extra actions from somewhere. Psionics can provide, though the degree of mileage you get will depend on your tolerance for Real Ultimate Power.

I want ultimate power that doesn't overshadow the party

[Tokuhara]

Basically, I need one psionic feat/combat feat to round my abilities out.

Edited Feats and added Traits. Just need to select my powers for Warmind/Sanctified Mind