(Pathfinder): Carrots for Roleplaying

[Nekrah]

I have realized that my gaming group tends to forget almost always the roleplaying/descripting their actions in the game and also in combat situations, it just gets dull simply to roll dice without any epic descriptions etc.

Does anyone have any ideas how I could reward them for roleplaying? Awarding hero points seems to be bit too much (''that was cool attack description - take a hero point!'') but I can't think anything else for now.

I've already said that I'll give free hero point if they write one page character description/background for the start of a new campaing.

// wohoo first post here !

[Qwertystop]

Not sure what a "hero point" is, but maybe award 1/10th of one for good in-combat roleplaying? Or award a chance to win one (roll 1d20 for each chance you have, on a 20 you get one)?

Or just accept that your players might not enjoy it as much as you.

[Pilo]

Do the turn as that:
GM: What do you want to do?
Player: Short metagame description (ex: "I want to slash him")(no personnal reason here like "Cause i can't stand a man wearing red shorts", no long term planning here)
GM: hum, roll the dices
Player: *rolling dices*
GM: Ok that is a big/correct/short succes/fail, explain what happend.
Player: He describe his action. (No personal feeling here, no long term planning either)
GM: Ok, next player start your turn!

Sometime you have to let a guy some time to describe what his character has done, by preventing other player to start playing.

If it's not enough, give the player a +1 token if he was impressive. no more than 3 tokens in a given time, no more than 1 for each use.

[Nekrah]

Not sure what a "hero point" is

Hero points were implemented in Advanced Players Guide as optional mechanic, they give you nice one time bonuses or you can spend two of them to cancel death and survive the encounter somehow.

Pilo, I like the mechanic you suggested, I'll try that. I especially liked the idea of those tokens, those might be enough to drive them forward. I feel that our group is just too shy to start describing something epic with loud voice :smalleek: - though we all loved in last campaign where the other GM roleplayed really well two characters: cowardly fame stealing knight (which we all hated) and oversizedly fat town mayor ''bob'' which grew to be our mascot (and now he is either dead or in some strange plane - perhaps we see him in another campaing :D).

Any other mechanical suggestions folks ?

[Gotterdammerung]

I have some experience in animal training. And psychology is a bit of a hobby.

I find that both areas help me control the game when i DM.

If i were in your situation, I would use psychoanalysis and powers of observation to decipher why the players were only interested in combat.

examples for the reasons behind combat oriented PC's that one might find through examination:

-If the PC's don't feel that they get enough combat, their desire for combat will grow exponentially. This will eventually turn them into blood thirsty brigands. This reaction has precedent for many D&D players. If you ever witnessed a party robbing town folk blind, chances are, their DM is a stickler about gold. Be aware of what areas you decide to limit your players. These limits create hunger that can manifest in strong one sided behavior.

Stickler on exp= violent PC's who will at the very least CONSIDER killing innocents and attacking party members for their next lvl up.

Low number of combat's= Combat is fun. If the hunger for combat is not sated it will grow.

Gold= low gold makes even the most pious character, more lenient about things like theft. There is a reason the crime rate is very high among the poor and destitute.


- The PC's may just enjoy combat. Original d&d was more about the story and the roleplay. As it influenced the creation of a video game genre, and then later sought to compete with its progeny, D&D has become increasingly more about the numbers and the art of table top tactics. There is room for extremes. You can have groups who focus only on the roleplay and story. You can have groups who equally enjoy number crunching, tactics, AND roleplaying. And you can have groups that ONLY want to do fights.

If you identify that your group is indeed only interested in the table top tactics and number crunching, you should adjust to fit their needs. Not manipulate them to fit yours.


- It is also possible that the PC's tried roleplay and had a bad experience. Or that they lack the self esteem required to roleplay and prefer to stick to the combats where math and hard rules have their back.

In these situations, it is important to give them the combat they want. And occasionally, very subtly, introduce aspects of roleplay. Make sure it is an enjoyable encounter (don't send them a letter about how their parents have just died, for instance). They are looking for reasons to reaffirm there disdain for combat. Don't give them any.

Another useful tactic in this scenario is to lead by example. Introduce a DMC (Dungeon master character). Have this character often goad people into roleplay exchanges.

Another example of leading by example, would be to translate every players combat round after they say "and that's the end of my turn.

Example: the player's dervish does a dervish dance and dances around the room slicing each of the bugbears. As he moves he draws AoE's from the bug bears on purpose. When the bug bears take their AoE's and miss, he trips them and then hits them again when they fall. After the player ends his turn, go back and describe that turn.

"Ayvrael's eyes go blank for a moment as he gives his soul over to the instinct and soul of the dance. Then with unearthly grace he exploded into a flurry of graceful spins. Dancing around the room he mets each bugbear with a explosion of slashes. Many times it looked like his cuts missed. But in seconds the telltale sign of red blood creasing out of lightning quick slice confirmed the truth. In the exchange of blades, Avyrael left an opening in his defenses. The bugbears being seasoned warriors, recognized the weakness and attacked. But the weakness was a ruse. Avyrael intentionally goaded the bugbears to attack in order to put them off balance. Then with a quick change in his dance he provided them with the small push needed to flatten them to the ground. Slashing them once more each with his scimitars. In the few seconds it took him to dance around the room, each bugbear was left bleeding from several cuts, and squalling on the ground, trying to regain their footing."

This method takes a little more time in game. But when you get good at translating numbers into story, it goes much faster. You eventually get to where you can compose the story exactly as the turn is being taken. And then shortly afterward, players begin to want to start describing their own turns.











Once I understood the why, I would then decide if I wanted to manipulate their motivations.

If i decided to manipulate them, I would use basic training staples to motivate them to the desired behavior.

[Novawurmson]

Leading by example is probably the best tactic.

Player: I attack. (rolls) Does an 18 hit?
DM: (checks) Yes, it does!
Player: (rolls) 12! Max damage!
DM: You slash the monster across the throat! It gurgles and collapses in a blood heap.

Incorporate their character's preferences and special abilities into the mix. A character with a greatsword might chop someone in half while an archer might score a shot straight through the eye.

Introduce this especially for near misses against the players, critical hits, major enemies, etc. and your players might start to have fun with it. My players specifically request a full description of the final blow on "boss" enemies.

==================

Is combat slow? Are people having fun?

[Nekrah]

Thanks for the answer once again ^^

I see the point of your advice Gotterdammerung and I'll analyze few of them:

Low experience gain: we'll we've pretty used to level up in about 2-3 sessions so that's not too slow I assume? I believe that any faster pace makes leveling up feel boring and it loses it's rewarding nature.

Low number of combats: well last time I was GM some players complained that there was too much combat :smallbiggrin: (though one of those players left 'cause few disagreements) and players which we have now mostly enjoy combat.


- It is also possible that the PC's tried roleplay and had a bad experience. Or that they lack the self esteem required to roleplay and prefer to stick to the combats where math and hard rules have their back.

This is probably the main reason - one of our old gm's was pretty nasty when he said ''well that is stupid but let's go'' when we did something unwise - I myself love it when the barbarian charges in roaring madly, it's not wise but it's damn fun !

I've tried to use the method where GM sums up the action of player characters but it get's very hard to do all the work for your players :smallfrown: then I get lazy too and it's just about rolling the dice...

But any tips for raising that self-esteem specifically ? One of our players is very very shy and she probably would need some help to raise her courage to roleplay her character.

// by the way I'm reading psychology in university but it's not my major ^^'

[SamBurke]

Giving them Hero Points isn't a bad thing; they can only have 3 at a time, so that means that they'll have to use them rather liberally. Note: this means that they're likely to be getting hits, crits, kills, etc, etc, etc, but that means that they'll be doing better in-game for describing their action, which means they're describing something MORE AWESOME, so they'll (assuming you've lead by example and the other excellent previous suggestions) want to describe it more.

Looking awesome is... well... AWESOME.

[Lifeson]

QAGS actually has something like Pilo's suggestion, called Yum Yums.

The idea is you get a bag of candy (Preferably your players' favorites. Good things it's just after Halloween, eh?), and you hand your players one to start off with. Tangible hero/action/etc. points for them to spend on actions to give them a cinematic boost.

They ARE allowed to eat them, if they really wish.

And you hand out more Yum Yums as you wish. In your case, roleplaying. When they use a yum yum, they hand it back to you (Or eat it, if you feel like rewarding them more.) when they use the point. When they interact with the world at large in a meaningful way (i.e. they RP a situation rather than hacking at it.), feel free to give them 1-3 yum yums depending on how much/well they try. When I tried it with my group, they really loved the idea of a treat being usable in either it's traditional sense, or as a character boost. I actually had one of my players get a whole bunch of them just so he could have a tasty snack. :smallcool:

There's also Earthflame's Break System. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Heavy_mythril#Breaks) It encourages roleplaying, but in the vein that your players seem to be more interested in. The original /tg/ thread it appears in seems to be lost, but I found a version of it. I haven't tried it myself, mostly because I feared for one of my players abusing it to burn the world. It does seem like something to ease your players in, if they like combat more. If the player just abuses the break system, then nothing happens, but it rewards going over the top with your actions.

[Novawurmson]

But any tips for raising that self-esteem specifically ? One of our players is very very shy and she probably would need some help to raise her courage to roleplay her character.

Are there any NPCs she likes? Have them talk with her directly; whether it's the old man who runs the potion shop or the seamstress who made her robe, if there's someone they care about and talk to in the game world, that'll invest her in her character more. Over the course of the years, my players' characters have had siblings, spouses, children, mentors, hirelings and employees, necromantic thralls, followers, pets, superiors...

How much of a backstory does she have? If there aren't any NPCs she has an attachment to yet, try to introduce one from her past. Clerics, Paladins, Druids and Monks usually belong to some kind of order who might send someone to check on her, Rogues and Bards might have old associates or friends, Cavaliers might have a commander or officer, Gunslingers might have a mentor, etc. etc. You don't want a force a character she doesn't like on her, though.

[Metahuman1]

First: Look at her class. I will make examples using two of three of them.

1: Wizard: As you grow levels, your gonna be powerful. More then just powerful. You literally wave your and and tell reality to sit down, shut up and get out of your way, and then reality does exactly that, specifically because you told it too! You summon beings that can level citys and make them your slaves! You can literally raise the dead to do your bidding if you want! Just thinking about it you can make people see and hear and do what every you wish of them on demand! Your amazingly powerful, you should embrace that. Don't abuse it, but don't forget it either. And trust me, I'll give you plenty of warning if something your about to do constitutes abuse, and plenty of time to alter your course of action.

2: Bard: Your the life of the party, beloved by all and always full of surprises. You've got a trick or two up your sleeves for any situation. You can do any job you fancy depending on the specifics of your build. Warrior? Peice of cake, will make a master swordswoman out of you in no time with a few feats. Spell Caster? Not a problem, just grab this Prestige class when you get there and pump that Charisma Score and you'll be every bit as good as a Sorcerer or Favored Soul. Skill expert? Done and Done, use this feat, this AFC, and get theses Items, and you'll be succeeding skill checks like nobody's business! You've got options, and options are awesome, so enjoy it, try awesome maybe sometimes crazy stuff. I'll warn you it it's gonna be too crazy, and give you plenty of time to change what your gonna do. Just enjoy

3: Barbarian: Your the freaking she-hulk! Your Red Sonya! Your Wonder Woman! Your tall, insanely strong, almost impossible to make go down and stay there for any length of time with out magic, and sexy as anything! You've got physical prowess others can barely dream of! Have fun with it! Kick butt, slay beats, drink the tavern dry and the village under the table by getting angry about the one idiot who won't stop trying to assert he can kick your butt because your female even thought he's a foot and a half shorter then you and less then half your weight! I'll help you pick good feats and Prestige classes or class dips depending on how specifically you want to fight and if you want to branch out and do more then fight. And I'll warn you if something's gonna be suicidal, so just relax and go kick some serious butt, make yourself a legend the bards will sing of forever!





The point here would be to make it clear that she won't screw up, that she won't make a mess of things for everyone else. Provide her the safety net and reassurance. Then let her go to town, and let her win as much as you dare. She'll feel more confident if this is the normal environment as time progresses.

[Gotterdammerung]

Low experience gain: we'll we've pretty used to level up in about 2-3 sessions so that's not too slow I assume?
^^'

No that is a fine pace.

Good job doing a quick run down analysis. You really took to the idea, and i think you probably discovered the root of the problem.

Remember to give it some more pondering out of courtesy. There is always something more to see.



But any tips for raising that self-esteem specifically ? One of our players is very very shy and she probably would need some help to raise her courage to roleplay her character.

// by the way I'm reading psychology in university but it's not my major ^^'

Self-esteem is very tricky, especially with women. (and when I say women, it is a generalization meaning most women I have knowledge of. It is not meant to shoehorn the entire gender into a box or insult anyone.)

Usually by the time you meet someone with low self esteem issues, they have had a small lifetime of reinforced behavior.

This does 2 things.

#1 it makes it hard to find the root of the problem. Kinda like with the tracking skill- the DC goes up the longer you wait to follow the trail.

#2 It puts a wall of compounded negative experiences and thoughts all linking together to reinforce the persons opinion of themselves. Think strength in numbers.


When attempting to bolster a persons self-esteem, you have many options. But ultimately, it is a process that is unpredictable, as it takes an internal decision on the subjects part. I.E. No matter how much work you do, the person gets the final say on what they believe about themselves and how they want to live.

I will just list positive actions that you can do.

-Hook them up. The Idea of sexual healing didn't come out of the blue.

- get to know them. The more you know about them, the more they will open up. You have a chance at developing a psuedo self-esteem. I.E. they will be more open and normal behind closed doors.
You also have a better shot at learning the root of their esteem issues. And a better position to start chiseling away at all the bad.

- Opportunity. Provide them with opportunities to be bold. This is simultaneously drawing them out and supporting them at the same time. This can be as simple as inviting to every party you go to, regardless of whether they said yes or no last time. Don't nag or pester. Just open invitations and a general sense that you want them to be there.

- Build them up. Play to their good qualities as a person.


- Need them. Whether you actually need them or not is irrelevant. People have an innate sense of loyalty and duty. They will often overcome many personal difficulties for a friend in need. If you can put your friend in a position where you need his help, but the help requires them overcoming a personal challenge, then you can trick them into facing their own demons.

Potential backfire. If they fail to "get your back". They will be overcome with self loathing for being to weak and failing a friend. Be sure to have a contingency to alleviate this inevitable guilt.




Women-

- Women are more likely to have self-esteem issues.
But they are more responsive to positive influences in these areas.

If we were going to chart it on a scale of 1-10.
10 being severe self esteem issues
1 being the most **** sure overconfident person you have ever met.


Men tend to stay around 3 or 4 naturally and women stay around 6-8 naturally.

Women slide up and down the scale easily

And men are harder to move up and down the scale.

When women move up and down the scale they move 1 point at a time.

When men move up and down the scale they do so drastically. Like jumping from 4 to 1 or from 4 to 10.


So with this information we can make some statements.

a woman with a severely low self esteem is easier to build up, but requires continued positive support to maintain normality.

A man with a severely low self esteem is incredibly hard to return to confidence. But once you get him their he will be self sufficient barring life shattering events.


So recommended course of actions

For a Woman-give support, love, appreciation.

For a Man- give respect, support, patience, more patience, some more patience.

[Nekrah]

Thanks for the replies once again! Didn't have chance to reply - gotta read sometimes for theology too :D (those pesky requirments to teach religion here in Finland).

So few pointers so that you know better our situation:

1. The campaign hasn't started even yet, but I've run about year ago pathfinder campaign (which ended 'cause player conflict) and after that we've played few random rpg's and mostly other PF campaign run by my friend.

2. Our team composition is now:

Elven Magus (blackblade, dervish dancer build) - played by male friend of mine, he is pretty courageous but he sometimes forgets to act in the mind of character.

Dwarven Ranger (two-weapon fighter, skirmisher) - played by female friend, she likes to smash things usually :D but she doesn't do almost any voice overs and it's pretty hard to tell if she's just telling joke or roleplaying.

Tiefling Rogue (basic build, dexterity and sneakiness) - played by our most shy player, my girlfriend (dun dun duuuun! *dramatic music*), she played almost a perfect copy of this character year ago and she really liked it, I hope she now has better chance and understanding of roleplaying so she has courage to delve more into the character.

Human Cleric (merciful healer, team buffer/debuffer) - It's a ME! Heh, I took cleric 'cause I'll be healbot and I supposed it ain't be too much fun to play one in battle so I took the role. I'll try to courage them to roleplay via him, I'll try to ask ''why did you decide to start adventuring - this is awfully dangerous job'' etc. etc. I would like some tips for situations where I could use him really well. My ultimate aim is that if he sometime dies (perhaps for the plot) they'll feel really sad/angry and they want to revenge for him or perhaps somehow bring him even back from the realm of the dead.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Always allow a "finish him" moment from mortal kombat on at least the boss characters or the last guy to fall in a fight. The shenanigans that occur are totally worth it.

"Poe, the black dragonborn reached over to the defeated bandit and lifted him to eye level, he proceeded to grab some jerky from the bandits back, ate said jerky, then ripped the spine out of said bandit's body and used it for a toothpick!" End what my friend described after he caught the last bandit.