Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Wraith]

40k-in-the-Playground presents...
Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army
by Cheesegear and GitP contributors

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Vehicles and You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118712&postcount=1011).
Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42) General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
To Tailor Your List Or Not To Tailor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10373704&postcount=571)

Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Closet_Skeleton says:
"Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."

How To Write An Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358) | Sample (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8713541&postcount=1393)

Should you buy a Battleforce? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8821178&postcount=299) In most cases, yes.
How about Megaforces? Dark Eldar are okay (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12294071&postcount=597), and Space Marines.... aren't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12299582&postcount=617).

Guide to Armies
Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7733811&postcount=990)

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Errata is essential. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170007a_Dark_Angels_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012 .pdf) Essentially a carbon copy of Codex Marines with the option to play Ravenwing (all bikes) or Deathwing (all Terminators). Both of which, for the most part, can be done much better by Codex: Space Marines and either Grey Knights/Space Wolves, respectively. *
Black Templars: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11039428&postcount=79) You will need the FAQ. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450662&postcount=510) Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11549896&postcount=162) The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

What if you like one particular unit more than the others? Which Codex would be best for you? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11343165&postcount=1001)

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:
Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But much, much different in play-style from Eldar, than SM's are from CSM's.

Stuff About HQ Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9844642&postcount=252)
Stuff About Everything Else (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9871000&postcount=332)
Stuff About Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9886548&postcount=356)
Cheesegear says: "The Dark Eldar one is...Fairly out of date. Sliscus rules. Razorwings kick arse and Venoms are potentially the best Transport in the game - oh man was I wrong on that score!"

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6).

Tau:
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Grey Knights (GKs):
Super-Massive-Long-Posts-of-DOOOOOOM provided by Cheesegear.
- HQ Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434419&postcount=922)
- Elite Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12451906&postcount=973)
- Troops, Transports, Fast Attack and Heavy Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12467694&postcount=1018)
- Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12488431&postcount=1052)

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***
On the one hand, Grey Knights are very hard to build properly. There's lots of weird and wonderful wargear and squads to choose from and they all look so good.... But it's easy to pick all the wrong ones, for all the wrong reasons, and end up paying through the nose for the privelage.

On the other: Get the balance right, pick the right units with the right wargear and send them to do the right tasks, and they can easily break almost any other army in the game apart with surprisingly little effort. Grey Knights are tremendously powerful if you use them correctly. They are utterly unforgiving if you get it wrong.

The Necrons:
Tomb Kings IN SPAAAAAAAACE! Legions of soulless, undying automatons cruising around the galaxy, atomizing everything in their path. Except for the senile, insane ones, who invite you to tea and then atomize you after you've finished the biscuits. What's not to like?

What Winterwind Thinks About Necrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12212061&postcount=219)
What Cheesegear Thinks About Necrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12253200&postcount=402)
What Cheesegear Thinks About Necron Special Characters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12259949&postcount=435)

Recommendation for Newbies: ***
Necrons are tough, with good armour and good guns, so it's hard to really use them "badly". It requires a bit of a knack to get the best out of the units in the book though, as well as needing a very careful understanding of their many special rules work and interact.

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than the old, fully-metal Daemonhunters.
About Imperial Guard Tanks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8434669&postcount=476).

Still to come;
Imperial Guard [2009], Witch Hunters [2003], Sisters of Battle [2011 - WD edition] and Orks [2009].
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

This hobby breeds opinions like no tomorrow. Please read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11233427&postcount=624)

---

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* -II- Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III - Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333&highlight=Warhammer)
* IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984&highlight=Warhammer)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538&highlight=Warhammer)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084&highlight=Warhammer)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&highlight=Warhammer)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)

[hamishspence]

Whats the point of Taking a Catacomb command barage if you dont have a warschyte to destroy vehicles and kill several units?

Maybe for mobility?

Trazyn's Empathic Obliterator might still be useful- fly over the unit, make sweep attacks, and watch as it affects several other enemies in the unit.

Anrakyr the Traveller comes with a warscythe.

[Wraith]

Because we (occasionally) practice what we preach, Battle Reports:

Borgh
- Dark Eldar vs. Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10812318#post10812318)

Cheesegear
- Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard, then Dark Eldar, then Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7940183&postcount=307)
- Space Marines vs. Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8720630&postcount=1412)
- Space Marines vs. Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722054&postcount=1416)
- Space Wolves Imperial Fists vs. Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8786353&highlight=slapped#post8786353)

Klose the Sith
- Space Marines vs. Black Templars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9322802&postcount=463)

lord_khaine
- Eldar vs. Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10494773&highlight=robin#post10494773)
- Eldar vs. Daemons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10310990&highlight=robin#post10310990)
- Eldar Vs. Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10268552&highlight=robin#post10268552)
- Eldar vs. Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9324856&highlight=robin#post9324856)
- Eldar & Dark Eldar vs. Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9557728&highlight=robin#post9557728)
- Eldar vs. Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9652913&highlight=robin#post9652913)
- Eldar vs. Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9893373&highlight=robin#post9893373)
- Eldar vs. Chaos Space Marines II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10453233&postcount=804)

Ricky S.
- Space Marines vs. Space Marines, then Chaos Space Marines, then Chaos Daemons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10988815&postcount=1344)

Timberwolf
- Blood Angels vs. Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11011576&postcount=1446)

Tome
- Grey Knights vs. Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11291620&postcount=805)

Wraith
- Space Marines vs. Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9341614&postcount=514)
- Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10477481&postcount=869)
- Space Marines vs. Orks II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10988897&postcount=1345)
- Grey Knights vs. Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11290588&postcount=802)
- Black Templars vs. Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12082004&postcount=1148)

Last Time.....
The Necrons are here! And... that's pretty much it. We don't really know how they work yet, but gosh-darnit if we're not going to complain about a lot of it..... :smallbiggrin:

[Zorg]

The Necrons are here! And... that's pretty much it. We don't really know how they work yet, but gosh-darnit if we're not going to complain about a lot of it..... :smallbiggrin:

Waaaaaaard!!!!! *shakes fist*

I'm just posting this to mark the thread.

[Squark]

I'm skeptical of the Ghost Ark, simply because there's a big difference between a lasplasback's lascannon and plasmagun sponsons (or is it the other way around), and a gauss flux array supported by it's passengers; Namely, the former is good against bigger, heavier targets, while the other is more of an anti-infantry weapon, since even though you're getting 15-20 shots from the latter, it's also only glancing a vehicle or wounding a T6 monstrous creature on a 6, and it doesn't have the lasplasback's High AP value against high value footslogging targets.


Unless the flux arc has completely been changed, in which case, never mind. Ungh... I gotta get my hands on the new codex this week.

Reposted since no one really had a chance to respond last time.

[filvento]

Maybe for mobility?

Trazyn's Empathic Obliterator might still be useful- fly over the unit, make sweep attacks, and watch as it affects several other enemies in the unit.

Anrakyr the Traveller comes with a warscythe.

Yea.. but the mobility is not much just for ONE HQ going alone.
I prefer something kewl that goes around , killing stuff you know.
And in a list like 1500 i wouldnt include 2 Chracters.. and Imotek has to get in! Its pretty nasty are more for those Ghost ark Strategy.



I'm skeptical of the Ghost Ark, simply because there's a big difference between a lasplasback's lascannon and plasmagun sponsons (or is it the other way around), and a gauss flux array supported by it's passengers; Namely, the former is good against bigger, heavier targets, while the other is more of an anti-infantry weapon, since even though you're getting 15-20 shots from the latter, it's also only glancing a vehicle or wounding a T6 monstrous creature on a 6, and it doesn't have the lasplasback's High AP value against high value footslogging targets.


Unless the flux arc has completely been changed, in which case, never mind. Ungh... I gotta get my hands on the new codex this week.

Well.. i think this are pretty good. After all you cant expect the Ghost Ark to do Everything, right? Its just one more unit.. And is not that expensive. Also.. they give great mobility to our warriors, and also it regenerate them. I think its pretty nasty with 13/13/11 and 1 and 2 does nothing to them since Living metal. Gauss Flux Arc is S4 AP5 3 shoots and its heavy. And it can fire to different units. I think its pretty nasty. And The ghost ark just costs 115?

Im still thinking on a list, but this is what i think.. i will DEFENITLY Include 2 Ghost arks full of warriors and Imotek the Stormlord.

[Trixie]

Aww, if I knew everyone can make new thread, I'd make it :P

Also, thread making post.

[Squark]

Yea.. but the mobility is not much just for ONE HQ going alone.
I prefer something kewl that goes around , killing stuff you know.
And in a list like 1500 i wouldnt include 2 Chracters.. and Imotek has to get in! Its pretty nasty are more for those Ghost ark Strategy.
I don't know how the new codex will shape up, but at that point value, I often found myself running 2 lords. Then again, this is back when a Res orb had become a must-have for every lord.



Well.. i think this are pretty good. After all you cant expect the Ghost Ark to do Everything, right? Its just one more unit.. And is not that expensive. Also.. they give great mobility to our warriors, and also it regenerate them. I think its pretty nasty with 13/13/11 and 1 and 2 does nothing to them since Living metal. Gauss Flux Arc is S4 AP5 3 shoots and its heavy. And it can fire to different units. I think its pretty nasty. And The ghost ark just costs 115?

Im still thinking on a list, but this is what i think.. i will DEFENITLY Include 2 Ghost arks full of warriors and Imotek the Stormlord.
Bolded test is my addition or emphasis, obviously

Err... The bolded text is including the cost of 5 warriors, right? Because 115 points for a dedicated transport is... kind of scary to me.


And I'm not saying the Ghost Ark is bad, I'm just saying I'm skeptical of it's ability to perform in a metagame dominated by mechanized forces. A lasplasback has can fight against other mechanized forces with a the plasmagun sponsons being able to penetrate light vehicles, and the lascannon being able to pen AP 14. The best a Ghost Ark can do is stunlock them, short of massed fire.

EDIT: I think part of the reason people are excited about the Ghost ark has something to do with Warriors getting a 33% price drop. A squad of 5 warriors in a ghost ark now has half again as much firepower as a squad of 10 warriors used to*, is more mobile, has only a small drop in survivability thanks to a vehicle to hide in, and it still costs 5 fewer points than that squad of warriors used to. That's definitely a power boost. EDIT2: Rear armor value 11 on every revealed vehicle is a nice touch, though, since it means powerfistless marines can't glance it in assault.

*Assuming the squad of warriors fires at the same target as one of the broadsides does, it will have just as much firepower as 10 warriors on their own do, and you still have the other broadside shooting at something else.

[The_Final_Stand]

Nope. 115 for the Ark alone.

For that, however, you get an open topped vehicle (so everyone can fire out) with not terrible armour (until you take a penetrating hit) that repairs nearby Warriors and has a bunch of guns itself.

Ok, so the open topped-ness is a point for squishability, but still. 13 armour until a penetrating hit isn't that bad... is it?

[Borgh]

The ghost ark flayer arrays consist of five gauss flayers, a bit like a hurricane bolter. They are set up like a sponson so you cant fire all ten gauss flayers at a single target.

The ghost ark is also silly expensive for something that is so vulnerable and I really wonder if the repair function is worth nine warriors.

[Squark]

The ghost ark flayer arrays consist of five gauss flayers, a bit like a hurricane bolter. They are set up like a sponson so you cant fire all ten gauss flayers at a single target.

The ghost ark is also silly expensive for something that is so vulnerable and I really wonder if the repair function is worth nine warriors.

So, the real question is, barring interactions with individual lords (which I'm really not in a position to comment on), which troop choice serves your purpose the best?

- 5-10 warriors (60-120 pts)
- 5-10 immortals (85-170 pts)
- 5-10 warriors in a ghost ark (175 pts-235 pts)
- 5-10 warriors in a Night Scythe (160-220 pts)
- 5-10 immortals in a Night Scythe (185-270 pts)
(Squad sizes bigger than 10 may be possible. Again, do not have codex)

Of these choices, I think the general consensus is footslogging is a bad way to go. This leaves us with a choice of Which arrangement of troops in a transport to take. Having no clue whatsoever what a Night Scythe is like (other than the fact that it is a fast skimmer with a portal to drop units out of and holds 15), I can't comment on which is the most effective.

[Borgh]

Why would footslogging be a bad idea? other then "because everyone Mechs, you should too" which I don't believe. Remember: its 115 points for questionable protection.

I'm personally going for units of ten-fifteen warriors (most likely 12 due to the box they come in) but twice as many as anyone who brings Ghost arks. Immortals in a night scythe sounds like a plan for a high speed interception which will be cool too.

edit: night scythe is 100 points.

[Arcanoi]

Night Scythes would be good if any of the Necron Troops actually wanted to be in Assault, but they don't. You *MIGHT* consider using it as a pseudo-Land Raider for Lychguard, but at that point you're looking at 600+ points...

Lord - 75pts
- Warscythe
- Resurrection Orb

Lychguard x10 - 550pts
- Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion Shields
-- Night Scythe

And then you'll want Zahndrehk to give them Furious Charge, though as far as I can tell there is very little reason not to take Zahndrehk in every single army. Him being stuck with a Staff hurts, but his special rules are simply too good.

[Squark]

Why would footslogging be a bad idea? other then "because everyone Mechs, you should too" which I don't believe. Remember: its 115 points for questionable protection.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I admit I'm parotting the Mech is King sentiment without entirely understanding why this is the case myself (As a general case. I've seen demonstrations of why Lasplasback>Rhino, but not why vehicle>non-vehicle). However, I do know that Necrons are still not closer to MEQ than a horde army, and to my knowledge horde armies are the only ones doing the footslogging. (The only explanation I've seen on why these armies are semi-viable is target saturation, but I confess I do not know why target saturation is so important)

[Arcanoi]

Honestly, I'm not sure. I admit I'm parotting the Mech is King sentiment without entirely understanding why this is the case myself (As a general case. I've seen demonstrations of why Lasplasback>Rhino, but not why vehicle>non-vehicle). However, I do know that Necrons are still not closer to MEQ than a horde army, and to my knowledge horde armies are the only ones doing the footslogging. (The only explanation I've seen on why these armies are semi-viable is target saturation, but I confess I do not know why target saturation is so important)

Vehicles are more efficient (Points per Dakka), harder to kill (AV10 = T7), and faster than infantry.

[filvento]

Well, thinking about Ghost arks. its 115 points plus 65 = 180.
If you take the old codex, then you get the same thing for 180, with more movilty, more firepower, and more chances to repair units back.

If you get 10 necron warriors in every ghost arks, its a GREAT firepower for no more than 500 points. They are still a good transport.. and it gets 13/13/11 and no stun crew.

I still dont have a nice idea of a list. I will include Wratihs, since they are still great.. Maybe a monolith?

Im not sure.. But those Doom Schytes seem Nasty. That death ray its pretty cool and you can use it 1 per turn. Bye bye infantry.

[Squark]

NO. DON'T. Seriously don't. And an even bigger don't, don't mention pirating codexs on this board. Good way to get a thread locked.

[Borgh]

points per dakka: not the Ghost ark. sure it has 10 gaus flayers but it will have to spread fire which in my book is a bad idea outside of luxury situations.
Survival: maybe. nine warriors (t4,4+ armour 5+ resurrection) or an open topped barge too large to effectively take cover. With the quantum shields it could take a lot of punishment to really bring down but even glancing hits can kill or immobilize it (being open topped)

Extra value: the repair barge ability is cool as it even works into close combat. This would be the only reason for me to bring the bugger. Its just that as long as they are on board no warriors should die and none of the warriors should disembark unless the barge crashes so it is not nearly as cool as it looks on paper.

EDIT at filvento: please remove that ASAP for the reasons squark mentioned.

[filvento]

Yea.. maybe. So if youd ot include Ghost arks ina list, what would u play?
P.D: Sorry for the Link, didnt know... Its just an easy way to read it and dont spend alot of money in just a book...

[Cheesegear]

And so I wake up early in the morning to start a new thread and it's been done without me.

I was going to make a joke about Protocol Droids. But that works, too.

...Now to roll double-6s on Morale Checks. Let's do this!

[The_Final_Stand]

I did just that just now. Twice.
To be frank, it wouldn't have changed anything even if I had succeeded.

[Squark]

Hmm... Let's evaluate the Ghost ark, then...

Points per dakka; 5 warriors in a ghost ark compares to 13 or 15* warriors normally... If 13, it's iffy; If 15, clearly the warriors.

Durability; depends on whether the enemy is packing pie plates or meltas and lascannons.

Mobility... yeah

So... I'm not sure which is honestly better.

*I know a warrior is either twelve or thirteen points apiece, I'm just not sure which.

[filvento]

A warrior is Thirteen a piece.
Still, i think ghost arks can work.. They are not useless.

[Renegade Paladin]

This was a thing early in the last thread, but just to note, the second edition of Imperial Armour Apocalypse is now available on the GW U.S. site. So much for customer service knowing what they're on about. :smallamused:

[Squark]

Wait a second... Unless the codex specifically says otherwise (Or the gauss flayer has been raised to STR 5, which is cause for celebration in and of itself), gauss flayer arrays are defensive weapons... Meaning a Ghost Ark can fire both arrays even when at cruising speed, and, If I understand how open-topped vehicles work, can fire both arrays and let the warriors fire (as it's non-defensive weapon) and move 6 inches. That's... A game changer in that discussion. (The other possibility is that moving 6 inches will allow only 1 warrior to fire. I've never had to deal with an open-topped tank before, so I don't know how firing out of one and moving works).

[Sila Prirode]

Wait a second... Unless the codex specifically says otherwise (Or the gauss flayer has been raised to STR 5, which is cause for celebration in and of itself), gauss flayer arrays are defensive weapons... Meaning a Ghost Ark can fire both arrays even when at cruising speed, and, If I understand how open-topped vehicles work, can fire both arrays and let the warriors fire (as it's non-defensive weapon) and move 6 inches. That's... A game changer in that discussion. (The other possibility is that moving 6 inches will allow only 1 warrior to fire. I've never had to deal with an open-topped tank before, so I don't know how firing out of one and moving works).

They can all fire. And yes, defensive weapons are what make Arcs good. But look at it this way:
9 Immortals, 1 Cryptek or Necron Lord in a Ghost Arc. Since you go really really fast you can get it in Rapid Fire range by turn two. All in all 300ish points.
5 Gauss flayer shots, and 18 Gauss blaster shots per Arc in turn two. And you can have 3 of those without straining your points that hard. Also they don't die ever, and are scoring. And Crypteks are really usefull (tank busting, anti Deep Strike, etc.)

[filvento]

Thats right you can move cruising speed and Shoot with warriors/inmortals, and shoot with the Gauss Arc.
And yea, you can carry one necron lord with Staff of light, or anything that you want to shot. If get 2 of those, you get in rapid fire and its BOOM, and not that expensive.

[Renegade Paladin]

Thats right you can move cruising speed and Shoot with warriors/inmortals, and shoot with the Gauss Arc.
And yea, you can carry one necron lord with Staff of light, or anything that you want to shot. If get 2 of those, you get in rapid fire and its BOOM, and not that expensive.
I have lascannons. :smallamused:

[Squark]

They can all fire. And yes, defensive weapons are what make Arcs good. But look at it this way:
9 Immortals, 1 Cryptek or Necron Lord in a Ghost Arc. Since you go really really fast you can get it in Rapid Fire range by turn two. All in all 300ish points.
5 Gauss flayer shots, and 18 Gauss blaster shots per Arc in turn two. And you can have 3 of those without straining your points that hard. Also they don't die ever, and are scoring. And Crypteks are really usefull (tank busting, anti Deep Strike, etc.)

According to the site, Immortals cannot use a Ghost Ark. And compare that to a LasPlasBack or an Imperial Guard tank division.


Thats right you can move cruising speed and Shoot with warriors/inmortals, and shoot with the Gauss Arc.
And yea, you can carry one necron lord with Staff of light, or anything that you want to shot. If get 2 of those, you get in rapid fire and its BOOM, and not that expensive.

Boom is not an adjective I would use to describe anything weaker than a gauss cannon. Let's remember, you're still relying completely on the Gauss weapon special rule to deal with Mechanized forces, and look what the metagame is swamped with... And no, you can't have your warriors fire at cruising speed, only at combat speed (<6 inches)

[Sila Prirode]

According to the site, Immortals cannot use a Ghost Ark. And compare that to a LasPlasBack or an Imperial Guard tank division.

Oh right, they can only use Night Scythes. Well, back to drawing board then.

On other hand,


I have lascannons. :smallamused:

This is what see as most of a problem with Necron transports. Anything with a reliable number of lascannons (say, two per Necron transport) will absolutely destroy it, because AV 13 is going down in first round, and they are not DE with their 5 and more vehicles on board.

EDIT:
Idea emerged as soon as I opened Codex.

HQ (not relevant for this, let's say Overlord on Command Barge)
5 Warriors, Cryptek with Harbringer of Storms
Ghost Arc

Now take 5 of those units. That totals to 1155 points. Rest are probably Elites/Heavy Support.

OK, now we got decent anti-infantry (50 Gauss flayers) and goodish anti tank (25 Haywire shots per turn). A way of making Necron MSU work?

[Arcanoi]

Oh right, they can only use Night Scythes. Well, back to drawing board then.


Well, you could pair the squad of Immortals with an objective-camping squad of Warriors and just put the Immortals in the Arc you take for the Warriors...




This is what see as most of a problem with Necron transports. Anything with a reliable number of lascannons (say, two per Necron transport) will absolutely destroy it, because AV 13 is going down in first round, and they are not DE with their 5 and more vehicles on board.

Indeed. The Necron Vehicles are absurdly well armed (The Night Scythe has a Tesla Destructor, rather than something useful like Quantum Shielding to fit it being a transport) but schizophrenic because they can't flat-out, like Fast Skimmers want to, while firing.

[Ricky S]

This is what see as most of a problem with Necron transports. Anything with a reliable number of lascannons (say, two per Necron transport) will absolutely destroy it, because AV 13 is going down in first round, and they are not DE with their 5 and more vehicles on board.


Chances are you will need more like 4 or 5 lascannon shots per vehicle to take it out. You have to hit it, then penetrate it and then still roll on the damage chart. So that means that most people will be able to take out probably one or two transports in the first turn.

[Squark]

Oh right, they can only use Night Scythes. Well, back to drawing board then.

On other hand,

This is what see as most of a problem with Necron transports. Anything with a reliable number of lascannons (say, two per Necron transport) will absolutely destroy it, because AV 13 is going down in first round, and they are not DE with their 5 and more vehicles on board.

EDIT:
Idea emerged as soon as I opened Codex.

HQ (not relevant for this, let's say Overlord on Command Barge)
5 Warriors, Cryptek with Harbringer of Storms
Ghost Arc

Now take 5 of those units. That totals to 1155 points. Rest are probably Elites/Heavy Support.

OK, now we got decent anti-infantry (50 Gauss flayers) and goodish anti tank (25 Haywire shots per turn). A way of making Necron MSU work?

Not completely sure about how Crypteks work, but I think you can have only one cryptek of each harbinger upgrade in an overlord's royal court, and I'm not sure if there are other ways to get a cryptek. Also, I do not know if you can give your overlord a royal court if he's in a command barge.

[Arcanoi]

Not completely sure about how Crypteks work, but I think you can have only one cryptek of each discipline in an overlord's royal court, and I'm not sure if there are other ways to get a cryptek.

You can have any number of a given type of Cryptek in your army, but only one of any of the Harbinger upgrades. So only one Gaze of Flame, or Harp of Dissonance or Veil of Darkness.

[Sila Prirode]

Not completely sure about how Crypteks work, but I think you can have only one cryptek of each discipline in an overlord's royal court, and I'm not sure if there are other ways to get a cryptek. Also, I do not know if you can give your overlord a royal court if he's in a command barge.

Arcanoi already answered the number of Harbringers, and I can't really find that rule about the barge, so I guess it is allowed. Now, after more reading, I think the best thing to add to above list would be 2 Doomsday Arks, which would bring two S9 AP 1 Large blasts per turn. This can act as a Lascannon shot against Mech lists, or as a pie plate against anything that isn't in vehicle.

[filvento]

A point is that You are not going to use Ghost arks full of warriors for mechanized units. Doomsday Ark is pretty nasty too.
Ghost arks are still cool with 10 warriors on it. 2 of them. You can kill any marine unit. Besides, why u cant fire if you moved at cruiser speed?

Cruising speed + Rapid fire? Why not.

[Renegade Paladin]

Indeed. The Necron Vehicles are absurdly well armed (The Night Scythe has a Tesla Destructor, rather than something useful like Quantum Shielding to fit it being a transport) but schizophrenic because they can't flat-out, like Fast Skimmers want to, while firing.
...

You realize that flat-out precludes firing weapons even if you aren't Necrons, right? :smallconfused:
A point is that You are not going to use Ghost arks full of warriors for mechanized units. Doomsday Ark is pretty nasty too.
Ghost arks are still cool with 10 warriors on it. 2 of them. You can kill any marine unit. Besides, why u cant fire if you moved at cruiser speed?

Cruising speed + Rapid fire? Why not.
For the same reason you can't fire when you run and the vehicle can't fire when it moves cruising speed. Land Raiders can fire one weapon at cruising speed because they have a special rule for it. Unless Ghost Arks are fast vehicles. If they are, I'm not clear on how Fast and transport capacity work together.

[Arcanoi]

...

You realize that flat-out precludes firing weapons even if you aren't Necrons, right? :smallconfused:

The point is that other fast Skimmers are cheaper because they're less heavily armed. The Night Scythe is a fast skimmer for 100 points toting what is essentially two TL-Autocannons that have a chance of hitting up to twelve times. It even has a rule that allows it to go at Cruising Speed and fire everything. But it also has a rule that lets it Flat-Out 36" and if you want to use it as a transport, you want to be Flat-Outing up the board for the cover save. Thus, for the first turn at least, your gun that you payed ~50 points for is wasted. Thinking on that now, though...



HQ[/b}

Imotekh the Stormlord - 305pts
- Catacomb Command Barge

[b]Troops

Necron Warriors x5 - 165pts
- Night Scythe

Necron Warriors x5 - 165pts
- Night Scythe

Necron Warriors x5 - 165pts
- Night Scythe

Necron Warriors x5 - 165pts
- Night Scythe

Necron Warriors x5 - 165pts
- Night Scythe

Necron Warriors x5 - 165pts
- Night Scythe

Heavy Support

Doom Scythe - 175pts

Doom Scythe - 175pts

Doom Scythe - 175pts

Total: 1820


Which gives you room for a bunch of Scarabs or a Triarch Stalker or something like that.

[Renegade Paladin]

I run Hellhounds and Devil Dogs in my army, and they have big guns that they can't shoot when they go flat-out. Now, they're tanks, so they can ram things with 18" of movement behind them and be about as effective as a Demolisher round to the face, but even without that (which I tend to save for after they've had their guns shot off) at the end of the day I don't feel they're worth less for having Fast and their assortment of heavy weapons, because while firepower is good, firepower where it needs to be is even better. My Hellhound has saved games against majority-Terminator forces that it would have a hard time burning to death by staying behind a rock in the back until turn 5 and then tearing off to contest the nearest objective.

Now, being a Guard player who doesn't (yet) use Valkyries, I don't have a lot of experience with how this plays with skimmers, but I have to note that Vendettas are nigh-universally declared awesome and yet are fast skimmer transports with multiple heavy weapons.

[filvento]

Night schyte could be cool thou but. Once you reach your enemy with all the night shytes and you have your warriors out. Yes you shoot. You not gonna kill everthing, next turn you get wreckled or charged.
Besides.. when you play with imotek thats atleast 2 or 3 turns playing with Night Rules.. What do you want a Doomsday for? You not gonna be able to reach anyhting.

I would play Ghost arksx2 A doom schyte Monolith. Imotek, wraiths.. Idk.. Still hard to get a list.

[Cheesegear]

After having the Codex for a few days, and checking the internet for a couple of clarifications (Are Ghost Arks worth it?), my review of the Necron Codex is summed up as;

"What if Dark Eldar were slower?" (in other words; What if Dark Eldar were bad?)

Shooty units are shooty. Assaulty units are Assaulty. But there's not a whole lot that can do both. Vehicles are flimsy and durable at the same time and able to dish out some power. Ghost Arks are phenomenally important, but get targeted quickly because opponents aren't stupid. I'm of the opinion that Necrons are in the power-scale of Codex Marines, rather than Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

Due to the "That unit must die!" mentality that Reanimation encourages, I'm expecting Vindicators to maybe come back in the meta-game for a while because AV13 is good. Heavy Flamers and Flamestorms should see more play (Cheesegear says as if they don't already feature in most armies).

And...Yeah. Sweeping Advance just got even more important. So Terminators are once again less valuable than they used to be. Hooray! Riflemen Dreads are going to take a beating, and I'm unsure what Codex Marines are going to replace them with to deal with Necrons. Maybe it's back to the TLAC/DCCW-HF combo?

Maybe I'll do the whole Codex review in a few days. Necrons seem to be more exciting than Grey Knights so I'm actually expecting to get a few games in, so maybe I'll learn some things on the table instead of 'in theory'.
(I don't know why it is. But my meta-game isn't impressed with Grey Knights)

[Ninjaman]

So i came up with an army idea for kill team:

Deathleaper
6 sporemines.

Due to ''every man for himself'' the mines drop individually, to mess with the enemy, and becourse i got points. And most importantly the sporemines are ignored for the purpourse of mission objectives, so i won't have to take ld if 4 die.

Death leaper jumps down into cover, shoots something, jumps out. Repeat. If the enemy is down to half, just jump him into a place the enemy can't reach and pray that he fails his ld. I Deathleaper dies you lose. Deathleaper can also reduce ld of one enemy, this will help him failing his ld.

[One Step Two]

Another thing to mention on the ghost-ark, it has living metal too, so it's got decent odds on going to get it's licks in if you're smart about cover and minimise damage, but to be honest, it's not a small model in any regards, so opponents will know to shoot the ever-loving snot out of it, as Cheese already mentioned.



Maybe I'll do the whole Codex review in a few days. Necrons seem to be more exciting than Grey Knights so I'm actually expecting to get a few games in, so maybe I'll learn some things on the table instead of 'in theory'.
(I don't know why it is. But my meta-game isn't impressed with Grey Knights)

Because, quite frankly, the Grey Knights are boring. They were the shiny golden boys before, and they still are. Still expensive and small elite army, still the same psychic dominators as before, just with a little more shiny ontop. What made them interesting, the ability to take Inquisition Storm-troopers, and the ability to use allied armies, is gone and we're worse off for it.
The necrons however, got a lore re-boot, some people like it, some don't, but regardless of the fluff, they have some fancy new options that are begging to be tried out. In many ways, the new Necron Codex is a brand new army, it's playstyle changed heavily from what it used to boast, and lets face it, Phase Out sucked, and it's gone.

As a note of things to try out:

Catacomb command barges are an open-topped skimming vehicle.
Put a lord with warscythe and nothing else in there, fly over a unit, lop some heads off, shoot it, then hop out and assault.

Canoptek Wraiths: Have we mentioned these? I want to mention these. They have rending now, oh, and they can upgrade to get Lash-whips (anything in base contact gets Iniative 1). Posse them up with a destroyer lord and enjoy yourselves.

[Ricky S]

What made them interesting, the ability to take Inquisition Storm-troopers, and the ability to use allied armies, is gone and we're worse off for it.


But they still have henchmen. Indeed some of the most interesting armies I have played against are full henchmen armies with a few units of greyknights.

[Cheesegear]

But they still have henchmen. Indeed some of the most interesting armies I have played against are full henchmen armies with a few units of greyknights.

The Monkey Army of DOOOOM!!!

[One Step Two]

But they still have henchmen. Indeed some of the most interesting armies I have played against are full henchmen armies with a few units of greyknights.

Yes, this is true, but I think the idea of needing to take a specific HQ to change the army dynamic more than a few special rules is absurd. Coteaz is cool, but I don't want to have the exact same Inquisitor to do that, any Inquisitor Lord should grant that. It may sound peevish, but frankly, the whole thing felt tacked on, like
"oh, hey we forgot to add inquisitors and inquisitoin troops to this codex."
"Yeah... lets just stack it on a special character and call it a day."

EDIT:


The Monkey Army of DOOOOM!!!

My favourite variation on it, is the Barrel of Monkeys(tm) Take 2 monkeys, and 3 weapon servitors, pop them into a chimera, add an inquisitor, shake well, and destroy all the things.

[banjo1985]

Canoptek Wraiths: Have we mentioned these? I want to mention these. They have rending now, oh, and they can upgrade to get Lash-whips (anything in base contact gets Iniative 1). Posse them up with a destroyer lord and enjoy yourselves.

They are a pretty big improvement on the previous rules. 5 points less for an extra wound, rending, and a bigger max unit size. Bit of a nerf to their mobility, but they still have the 3++, so all-in-all a good improvement. I2 is going to be an issue without the lash-whip like upgrade, but with 3++ that's slightly less important, as long as they only get thrown at units that don't have a large number of attacks. Torrenting will take Wraiths out fast, as it always used to. As you say, a great place to put a Destroyer Lord.

I'm away from my codex, but do they get Entropic Strike as well? Im so then that makes them super viable. If not, they'll struggle to displace big units of Scarab's in my initial list plans.

[Ninjaman]

Do anybody have any comments on my kill team list. Does it sound reasonable, stupid, brilliant?

[Etcetera]

Do anybody have any comments on my kill team list. Does it sound reasonable, stupid, brilliant?

Kill-team still exists?

[banjo1985]

I'm not sure that it exits officially (GW hate the idea you'd want to play a game with only a few models, where's the profit for them in that?), but the rules are readily available on the internet and there are still plenty of people that play it I think.

Well, I've heard it said that Deathleaper is pretty useless in the context of a normal game, but Kill Team's is a completely different kettle of aardvarks. A stealthy Lictor might excel in such small scale skirmish games where models are going to be spread out. I don't know how Spore Mines work, so I can't really comment further. Would also be a good idea to give Deathleaper a nice special rule as one of the three you can use on your team, I'm thinking Furious Charge or Preferred enemy maybe?

I'm trying Kill Teams later this week myself, now I've finally got a few of my DE painted:

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider
120 pts

3 Reavers
Heat Lance
78 pts

The idea is to have the Reavers turbo boost over individual models every turn unless there's a good Heat Lance target. The Warriors disembark from the Raider immediately and spread out, hopefully the Blaster will deal with any pesky Terminators or Meganobs that take to the field. The Raider is there pretty much just to attract fire, and well, a Dark Lance is never a bad thing to have floating around.

[Etcetera]

I'm not sure that it exits officially (GW hate the idea you'd want to play a game with only a few models, where's the profit for them in that?), but the rules are readily available on the internet and there are still plenty of people that play it I think.

Well, I've heard it said that Deathleaper is pretty useless in the context of a normal game, but Kill Team's is a completely different kettle of aardvarks. A stealthy Lictor might excel in such small scale skirmish games where models are going to be spread out. I don't know how Spore Mines work, so I can't really comment further. Would also be a good idea to give Deathleaper a nice special rule as one of the three you can use on your team, I'm thinking Furious Charge or Preferred enemy maybe?

I'm trying Kill Teams later this week myself, now I've finally got a few of my DE painted:

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider
120 pts

3 Reavers
Heat Lance
78 pts

The idea is to have the Reavers turbo boost over individual models every turn unless there's a good Heat Lance target. The Warriors disembark from the Raider immediately and spread out, hopefully the Blaster will deal with any pesky Terminators or Meganobs that take to the field. The Raider is there pretty much just to attract fire, and well, a Dark Lance is never a bad thing to have floating around.


Uh, these then? (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1855060/kill-team-tournament-rules-docx-april-13-2010-12-24-pm-19k?da=y)

'cos they say "No models with an armour value permitted". Or are you playing a different version?

[hamishspence]

the Battle Missions book has a Kill Team mission.

Each side selects a 200 pt army (0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Fast Attack) and is played on a 3 to 4 ft square board. All models operate as individual units. In an assault each model may split up attacks among eligable units.

Each army may give 3 models a Universal Special Rule each (no Universal Special Rule may be taken more than once.

[banjo1985]

My friend suggested Kill Teams, so not sure what set of rules he's using. No problem with the no transports though, gives me room for a minimum size squad of Incubi. :smallbiggrin:

That is the one issue with Kill Teams I guess; there are a lot of sets of rules out there, all of them slightly different. Does the Battle Missions version allow transports? I'm making a guess that this is the set we're using on Friday.

[Ninjaman]

Uh, these then? (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1855060/kill-team-tournament-rules-docx-april-13-2010-12-24-pm-19k?da=y)

'cos they say "No models with an armour value permitted". Or are you playing a different version?


the Battle Missions book has a Kill Team mission.

Each side selects a 200 pt army (0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Fast Attack) and is played on a 3 to 4 ft square board. All models operate as individual units. In an assault each model may split up attacks among eligable units.

Each army may give 3 models a Universal Special Rule each (no Universal Special Rule may be taken more than once.

Yeah the battle mission ones, but these are much the same. And the special rules are optional. I think these are like an amandment. It makes good sense since the only differences are the limatations on choices (no zoans!) and army specific changes (No instictive behavior, yay!)

[hamishspence]

as far as I can tell, it does. However, it also states "in Kill Team, the more terrain the better"- so that needs to be remembered when selecting them.

[banjo1985]

Okay thanks, at least a Raider doesn't have a big footprint! And cover saves shouldn't be difficult to manage. :smallbiggrin:

[Cheesegear]

That is the one issue with Kill Teams I guess; there are a lot of sets of rules out there, all of them slightly different.

My favorite set of Kill Team rules is called Necromunda. It's a totally free rules-set and everything.

[Ricky S]

The first time I played against monkey's they got the extra 12" range. So my opponent had 36" multi meltas. It was a rude shock to my baal predator. I have also played against an entire monkey army. They have a ridiculous amount of shooting. My opponent had about 50 lascannons flying at my first turn.

What do you guys think of a blendertron in a drop pod in a mechanised blood angels army? Would it work?

[Etcetera]

My favorite set of Kill Team rules is called Necromunda. It's a totally free rules-set and everything.

I agree, but it's so drearily hard to find people and a venue that will support a campaign that lasts longer than one battle.

[Trixie]

What do you guys think of a blendertron in a drop pod in a mechanised blood angels army? Would it work?

No, unless you land of 3 of them.


I agree, but it's so drearily hard to find people and a venue that will support a campaign that lasts longer than one battle.

Speaking of finding people, someone haven't been online for a long time :P

[Ninjaman]

Okay thanks, at least a Raider doesn't have a big footprint! And cover saves shouldn't be difficult to manage. :smallbiggrin:


as far as I can tell, it does. However, it also states "in Kill Team, the more terrain the better"- so that needs to be remembered when selecting them.

Unfortunately you can't take named characters, or vehicles. That just ruined this army. :smallfrown:

[Hawkfrost000]

Each side selects a 200 pt army (0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Fast Attack) and is played on a 3 to 4 ft square board. All models operate as individual units. In an assault each model may split up attacks among eligable units.

Its actually 0-1 Elites, 0-2 Troops and 0-1 Fast Attack.

For an upcoming kill teams tournament i was thinking:

10 Wyches

10 Warriors
Blaster or Splinter Cannon

What do you think?

[hamishspence]

Oops- must have not been looking at the bit closely.

Still, there are some special characters that are Elites or Troops- and are usable in the Battle Missions version of the Kill Team mission, as far as I can tell- the book doesn't mention otherwise.

[crazedloon]

best DE kill team,

5 wyches 135
hexatrix
agoniser
venom
splinter cannon

4 trueborn 63
1 blaster

blaster gets infiltrate, hexatrx gets scout, venom gets stealth

[lord_khaine]

So, im trying to build a 1000 point infantry core for a new necron army, and would like to hear if people think this is viable.


Nemezor Zandrekh

19 Warriors
Cryptect with Veil of darkness

10 Immortals with tesla
Cryptec with tremorstave

9 Scarabs

4 Wraiths with 2 particle casters and 2 whipcoils


The army should still be pretty mobile, since everyone but the Immortals is able to deepstrike down.

I got the warriors to pin down vehicles while the scarabs eat them.

I have the immortals to blast appart and slow down enemy infantry (with the aid of the tremor stave)

And lastly i have both the scarabs and the wraiths to act like counter charge units ( the scarabs become quite decent at cc if Zandrekh gives them furious charge).

[filvento]

@Lord Khaine.

Thats a good list, BUT, you have to think about your HQ.. it is going alone?
He is going to take a lot of fire, also.. those wraiths should move fast before they get firepower on them.. their 3++ will not save them.

Take care with the veil.. is not easy to aim and if your warriors die you are screw. Thats the most important part of your list.. The warriors.

@Cheesegear
I love what you said about the Necron Codex and i totally agree.. This necron new codex opens alot of posibilities for all kind of army lists.
So.. Lets start thinking!
Ghost arks = Must.-

[Renegade Paladin]

Oops- must have not been looking at the bit closely.

Still, there are some special characters that are Elites or Troops- and are usable in the Battle Missions version of the Kill Team mission, as far as I can tell- the book doesn't mention otherwise.
Played the Battle Missions version of it in a doubles campaign once. My partner used Marbo, who does his reserves thing regardless even though the game rules say no reserves. (Marbo's rule says he always does it, even if the scenario directly says otherwise.)

He didn't show up until the rest of the army was dead. :smallannoyed: And I used a Chimera and he threw in a pair of Sentinels, so vehicles are perfectly allowed in the Battle Missions rules.

[lord_khaine]

Well, ill most likely place my HQ with the warriors, that will make them insanely hard to kill, especaly if i give them stealth as well.

Im not sure about what to do with the wraiths and scarabs yet, though i was considering keeping them in reserve, then if the enemy gets anything in from reserve, then they can both deepstrike down in his turn.

[Ninjaman]

Oops- must have not been looking at the bit closely.

Still, there are some special characters that are Elites or Troops- and are usable in the Battle Missions version of the Kill Team mission, as far as I can tell- the book doesn't mention otherwise.

But i think this is for the book, they just couldn't write all that into a book (or thought it was broken?)


Played the Battle Missions version of it in a doubles campaign once. My partner used Marbo, who does his reserves thing regardless even though the game rules say no reserves. (Marbo's rule says he always does it, even if the scenario directly says otherwise.)

He didn't show up until the rest of the army was dead. :smallannoyed: And I used a Chimera and he threw in a pair of Sentinels, so vehicles are perfectly allowed in the Battle Missions rules.

See above
But if that is m´not the case then the best army must be:

Ironclad: flamer, hurricane bolter, seismic hammer, assoult launchers, 2 hunter killers.

[hamishspence]

The book didn't have anything forbidding vehicles- and I couldn't find a Kill Team FAQ which might forbid them either.

Still, I could imagine people looking at certain vehicles or special characters and saying "Overpowered for Kill Team" and introducing houserules forbidding them.

[Renegade Paladin]

One of our opponents just fielded five Terminators and the other a Death Company squad in a Razorback. We had precisely one thing that could hurt Terminators reliably, and owing to each model being a separate unit, they killed it with great prejudice as soon as possible.

[Ricky S]

It really is not that overpowered considering most people take terminators or some such as their killteam. The other thing to remember is that dreadnought's would only be able to attack one model at a time leaving their vulnerable rear side open to attack. And if it was really bad you could force a draw simply by climbing up a ruin. That way he cannot attack you in close combat and must shoot all of your models off.

I have played against a regular dread and 5 marines with my tactical squad. I focussed on the marines first and lost only 2 before I had killed them all. The missile launcher is nothing against the dread and in the end bolter fire took it down. I was able to encircle it and then rapid fire the back. The second time I rapid fired it was immobilised and after that I could just hammer it.

[filvento]

Theres any possiblity of ussing the Monolith with the new Codex? Someone thought of any strategy or somthing? I dont see it very useful without a safe deepstrike.. and its pretty huge.

[Ricky S]

Theres any possiblity of ussing the Monolith with the new Codex? Someone thought of any strategy or somthing? I dont see it very useful without a safe deepstrike.. and its pretty huge.

Well deepstriking isn't actually that dangerous. Just find a clear patch and drop it there, even if it is in terrain. The worst that can happen then is you immobilise it but that isn't so bad.

[Renegade Paladin]

Paladins with Scout in Dawn of War Annihilation are possibly one of the nastiest things in the game.

That is all.

[Tome]

Paladins with Scout in Dawn of War Annihilation are possibly one of the nastiest things in the game.

That is all.

I can see how that could be very nasty.

[Cheesegear]

@Cheesegear
I love what you said about the Necron Codex and i totally agree.. This necron new codex opens alot of posibilities for all kind of army lists.

...Wait. What? :smallconfused:

If anything, what I said about the Necrons was negative. They're like slow Dark Eldar. And slow Dark Eldar are bad. Unless you agree. I don't know whether or not you realise it. You love what I said (Necrons are bad), but want to make an army anyway?
...I'm confused.

I'm not a fan of the new Necrons. Well, in comparison to say, Tyranids I am. But that's not saying much. I bought the Codex, because. But the rest of my money spent on 'Necron Release Day' was spent on Space Wolves. And, at the moment, just after buying another Lysander, I'm doing some arm-swaps and a head-dremmel to make Arjac.

It's time for the Ward Hate to actually mean something. Go out and join the Kelly Gang; Space Wolves and Dark Eldar. Incidentally, my two favourite Codecies out right now. And not 'just because' they're written by Phil Kelly.

[hamishspence]

Isn't them being in the power scale of Marines a good thing- since it shows that the temptation to either overpower or underpower them, has been avoided?

They seem to fill a niche of their own- between the Tau and the Eldar/DE. Tougher and better fighters than the Tau, but slower than the Eldar.

There's a variety of options- one could have a fast moving, all power armoured list of Immortals in Nightscythes, one could have a slower but durable list of Warriors in Ghost Arks, one can mix and match.

Or even take an all footslogger swarm army of 20-strong Warriors & Flayed Ones.

[banjo1985]

Slow DE would be bad, but slow DE with better durability, tougher transports, similar anti-infantry and a different way of popping tanks? Slightly less so IMO. Crons don't need to be as offensive and quick anyway, as they don't want to be in assault and don't have Power from Pain ordering them to 'Kill stuff quick!'

I do agree that DE seem to be marginally superior from what I've gleaned so far from the Necron codex, but as player of both I guess only time and play experience will tell. If you can get a pain token for DE quick they suddenly become approximately as durable as Necrons, and don't fear assault like the Crons do. DE are devastating if the first couple of turns go right, but I think Necrons will be a little more forgiving of early game mistakes/bad luck as they're more defensive and start out tougher. Both armies seem to have a lot of options and potential builds.

More than ready to feel the love for Phil Kelly though, DE is a great balanced codex without many duff units and plenty of options. The fluff is good too, and that's coming from someone who usually ignores such things. To be fair I quite like the new Necron fluff as it turns them into 'moustache-twiddling evils' (term stolen from another forum) as well, so I guess Ward got something right for me there.

...and I'm rambling. I'll stop now. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Sometimes it seems like skimmer transports are beginning to take over the game.

Marines got the Land Speeder Storm
IG got Valkyries & Vendettas
Blood Angels & Grey Knights got the Stormraven
Orks (in Imperial Armour) got the Warkopta
and now Necrons have the Ghost Ark and the Night Scythe.

On the plus side, at least it can make games very dynamic and all about mobility.

[Etcetera]

Sometimes it seems like skimmer transports are beginning to take over the game.

Marines got the Land Speeder Storm
IG got Valkyries & Vendettas
Blood Angels & Grey Knights got the Stormraven
Orks (in Imperial Armour) got the Warkopta
and now Necrons have the Ghost Ark and the Night Scythe.

On the plus side, at least it can make games very dynamic and all about mobility.

And Eldar have, uh, Wave Serpents and Falcons.
Dammit, the next Eldar codex release is too far away.

[banjo1985]

And DE have Raiders and Venoms. Tau have Devilfish too. They've already taken over! :smalleek:

Good job most of them are relatively easy to blow up.

[Ricky S]

Sometimes it seems like skimmer transports are beginning to take over the game.

Marines got the Land Speeder Storm
IG got Valkyries & Vendettas
Blood Angels & Grey Knights got the Stormraven
Orks (in Imperial Armour) got the Warkopta
and now Necrons have the Ghost Ark and the Night Scythe.

On the plus side, at least it can make games very dynamic and all about mobility.

I think you mean flyers are taking over. Skimmers are old hat. Valyries, Storm Ravens and that Dark eldar flyer. Every race is getting one too.

[Ninjaman]

I think you mean flyers are taking over. Skimmers are old hat. Valyries, Storm Ravens and that Dark eldar flyer. Every race is getting one too.

Necrons :smallconfused:

[banjo1985]

The Night Scythe is a flying transport, so yeah they've got one. No model yet, but I'm sure if the Cron sales figures are good enough there will be one soon-ish.

[hamishspence]

They're still skimmers- but I suspect certain skimmer units are going to at least have the option to be flyers in Apocalypse games, or maybe even in 6th ed, if it introduces a "Flyer" rule to core 40K.

The Valkyrie & Vendetta have that option in a White Dwarf article- so they're good candidates.

The Stormraven seems to fit in its description- coming down from space like a mini-thunderhawk.

And Supersonic vehicles with Aerial Assault would fit (Voidraven, Razorwing, Night Scythe, Doom Scythe).

[Hootman]

So, I tried my hand fiddling with IG again, because I'm a sucker for cool models and I found some Steel Legion on Ebay for fairly reasonable prices. There's enough time before the December Doubles Tourney that I can easily learn how to play with an IG list if I decide to use them instead of [Insert Flavor] Marines, so I would like the thread's opinion on the following list.

HQ
Company Command Squad, 165pts
-Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, 2 Flamers, Master of Ordinance
+Chimera

TROOPS
Infantry Platoon, 260pts
Platoon Command Squad, 30pts
Infantry Squad, 80pts
-Flamer, Lascannon, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad, 75pts
-Flamer, Lascannon
Infantry Squad, 75pts
-Flamer, Lascannon

Infantry Platoon, 260pts
Platoon Command Squad, 30pts
Infantry Squad, 80pts
-Flamer, Lascannon, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad, 75pts
-Flamer, Lascannon
Infantry Squad, 75pts
-Flamer, Lascannon

Infantry Platoon, 260pts
Platoon Command Squad, 30pts
Infantry Squad, 80pts
-Flamer, Lascannon, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad, 75pts
-Flamer, Lascannon
Infantry Squad, 75pts
-Flamer, Lascannon

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts

Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts


TOTAL: 1245/1250 points
So, how is it? What would you suggest I change, given my limited point value? I don't really think I have the option (due to limited funding and availability) of putting together a Chimera-Box-Wall army, and IG don't use Rhinos, so I'm out of luck with using lots of vehicles. I may end up having to change my available model-count anyways based on what auctions I win, but I'm trying to get a good baseline to work from.

[Etcetera]

TOTAL: 12451250 points

How many points exactly is this doubles tournament? :smalltongue:


Uh, needs more Melta Mechvets and Gunships.
To paraphrase someone who actually knows guard.

[Trixie]

He has lascannons :P

The only thing I'd add to this list is another tank, plus a few V-gunships, of both varieties, or IG light tanks, both from FA slots.

Also, weapons are kind of schizophrenic, flamers/lascannons don't mix that well, I'd replace flamers with grenade launchers. Unless all you want your flamers to ever do is to act as mild assault deterrent.

[ZeltArruin]

TOTAL: 12451250 points

Just doing some quick math, for a game that big, you will want a board around 400ft by 300ft, or 37000ft by 4ft, give or take. Also, only 2 tanks in a one million plus points army is probably not enough, go for at least twenty thousand, sixty if you really wanna be a jerk.

[Tome]

So, I tried my hand fiddling with IG again, because I'm a sucker for cool models and I found some Steel Legion on Ebay for fairly reasonable prices. There's enough time before the December Doubles Tourney that I can easily learn how to play with an IG list if I decide to use them instead of [Insert Flavor] Marines, so I would like the thread's opinion on the following list.

->SNIP<-

So, how is it? What would you suggest I change, given my limited point value? I don't really think I have the option (due to limited funding and availability) of putting together a Chimera-Box-Wall army, and IG don't use Rhinos, so I'm out of luck with using lots of vehicles. I may end up having to change my available model-count anyways based on what auctions I win, but I'm trying to get a good baseline to work from.

Really, this looks to be a decent Infantry Guard list. And Infantry Guard are very, very good by my understanding.

The big flaw in it is all those Flamers. You don't need that many flamers. You don't want them on your company command squad because if the enemy is in range to use them, then your command squad is dead next turn anyway. You don't want them on your Infantry Squads either, because they're all carrying Lascannons which want to stay still and shoot from as far away as possible. If you're shooting one, you're not using the other.

Which brings up another point. You might want to diversify your weapon loadouts a bit. Gear one platoon for being an infantry blob (and attach a Commissar with a Power Fist to one squad), have another ticked out with Lascannons and so on, instead of having every squad kitted out with Lascannons. If you can, sneaking in a chimera of Melta-vets or two might be a good idea.

Of course, I'm not a Guard player myself, nor do I know all that much about them (beyond how much I hate trying to outshoot them as Tau). You might want Cheesegear or someone's opinion for that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Gear one platoon for being an infantry blob (and attach a Commissar with a Power Fist to one squad)
Impossible. Commissars on infantry squads may not take power fists. There's no way to get a power fist in a blob without using independent characters.

[Tome]

Impossible. Commissars on infantry squads may not take power fists. There's no way to get a power fist in a blob without using independent characters.

Make that a Lord Comissar then I guess? I know that Power Fists are the thing you don't want to find hidden in infantry blobs, so it makes sense to stick one in there.

[Renegade Paladin]

Make that a Lord Comissar then I guess? I know that Power Fists are the thing you don't want to find hidden in infantry blobs, so it makes sense to stick one in there.
Cheaper to use a ministorum priest with an Eviscerator.

[Tome]

Cheaper to use a ministorum priest with an Eviscerator.

Lemme check my copy of the codex.

Lord Commissar with Power Fist is 85 points. A Priest with an Eviscerator and a Commissar in one of the squads (because you want the blob to be Stubborn) adds up to 95 points, but the Priest is 2 attacks at WS 3 versus the Lord Commissar's 3 attacks at WS 5. I think the Lord Commissar is better value, though the Priest does have Righteous Fury and the extra d6 penetration.

[Trixie]

Frankly, when you have blobs, even power weapons are too much sometimes. 4 PWs = another 10 bodies. The only things that give them pause are walkers, and barring FW drop pods, you don't play Guard to let any walker get close, cadet!

<ahem>

Etcetera here can tell how 30 man strong blob just ate Eldar assault unit, I believe, losing less than 1/3 of the men, and that after they outflanked next to them :smalltongue:

[Etcetera]

Frankly, when you have blobs, even power weapons are too much sometimes. 4 PWs = another 10 bodies. The only things that give them pause are walkers, and barring FW drop pods, you don't play Guard to let any walker get close, cadet!

<ahem>

Etcetera here can tell how 30 man strong blob just ate Eldar assault unit, I believe, losing less than 1/3 of the men, and that after they outflanked next to them :smalltongue:

In fairness, if I'd thought to put the autarch's attacks on the Commisar Lord I'd have broken through one of the squads and been able to swing round and double-flank the other with the jetbikes and the shining spears.

Clearly I need to use Mind War next time.

[Trixie]

Lord Commissar with Power Fist is 85 points. A Priest with an Eviscerator and a Commissar in one of the squads (because you want the blob to be Stubborn) adds up to 95 points, but the Priest is 2 attacks at WS 3 versus the Lord Commissar's 3 attacks at WS 5. I think the Lord Commissar is better value, though the Priest does have Righteous Fury and the extra d6 penetration.

LC, as outlined below, can die pointlessly, before he gets to do anything, especially if he is I1. Also, S6 power fist is nothing special, when at least 4 armies have S6-7 power weapons at I.


In fairness, if I'd thought to put the autarch's attacks on the Commisar Lord I'd have broken through one of the squads and been able to swing round and double-flank the other with the jetbikes and the shining spears.

Clearly I need to use Mind War next time.

Not sure if they were in contact, then...

Though, it's telling - literally first time you attacked one of my HQs directly and it was poor Commissar, not any of the two dozens of HQs I fielded. Just underscores how irritating these guys are :smalltongue:

Also, that assault squad was eaten by 'regular' commissar, so targeting him wouldn't have worked then, anyway.

And you still didn't turned IM on :P

[Etcetera]

Also, that assault squad was eaten by 'regular' commissar, so targeting him wouldn't have worked then, anyway.

And you still didn't turned IM on :P

Yes dear, but I was referring to the squad that did have "Cain" in it.

And I haven't been on Steam because the computer that I was running it and Vassal on started making worrying "pop" noises, so I decided to leave it alone.

Oh, uh, 40k, right.

What would people recommend as a good 500 points for getting into Eldar (1 troops, no HQ). I'm thinking about 10 Avengers, 3 SL Warwalkers and 6 Scorpions, not least because of the ease with which they can be picked up off eBay. Thoughts?

[Renegade Paladin]

Frankly, when you have blobs, even power weapons are too much sometimes. 4 PWs = another 10 bodies.
Actually five. Guardsmen aren't that cheap. :smalltongue: Unless you're talking conscripts, which is both a whole different kettle of fish and unable to join a blob.

[Hootman]

The big flaw in it is all those Flamers. You don't need that many flamers. You don't want them on your company command squad because if the enemy is in range to use them, then your command squad is dead next turn anyway.
Yeah, assault deterrent was what I was going for, more or less. And if anyone gets close without hitting me (for some reason...I didn't think that part through) I'd roast them. I should probably change those to something else now, though...

You might want to diversify your weapon loadouts a bit. Gear one platoon for being an infantry blob, have another ticked out with Lascannons and so on, instead of having every squad kitted out with Lascannons.
Yeah, that's not a terrible idea. Should I change them to have Missiles or Mortars (lolmortars), or just swap to Grenade Launchers in place of the flamers and call it a day? Or drop them entirely, and grab a unit of Ratlings or Storm Troopers or Marbo?

Unfortunately, my FO Slots are limited for the tournament I mentioned, and I can only have 1 HQ, 3 Troops, and up to two of any of the rest (max 5 units).

[Tehnar]

Ive played another game tonight (my Orks vs Blood Angels, my second game of 40K) and have a few tactical questions:

1) Keeping space marines in cover is useless unless your opponent has AP 3 or better shooting? You can make only one type save for each wound?

2) How to deal with Feel No Pain without powerklaws as Orks? Or are the Power Klawz the orky answer to everything?

3) Ive got a feeling that a nob + 11 boyz in a trukk is a good option, but there seem to be too few boyz left to attack. Is getting a bigger transport vehicle a better option? Or used mobs of 30 and footslog them around?

4) Stormoboyz seem good on paper, how do they hold up against trukk + boyz combination for effectivness?

[Shadow Lord]

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

Which Armies cost the least?

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, assault deterrent was what I was going for, more or less. And if anyone gets close without hitting me (for some reason...I didn't think that part through) I'd roast them.
It'll happen. In my game last night my opponent elected not to shoot at my blob so I couldn't remove models close to his paladins.
Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?
The one you'll use. Not to sound flippant, but there it is; there's no point getting the Dark Eldar battleforce if you want to play Blood Angels.

Edit:
Which Armies cost the least?
Not Guard. :smalltongue: Probably Grey Knights or Space Wolves, at least for certain army builds; they can make a very high points force with very few models and have it still be viable.

[Ricky S]

Ive played another game tonight (my Orks vs Blood Angels, my second game of 40K) and have a few tactical questions:

1) Keeping space marines in cover is useless unless your opponent has AP 3 or better shooting? You can make only one type save for each wound?

2) How to deal with Feel No Pain without powerklaws as Orks? Or are the Power Klawz the orky answer to everything?

3) Ive got a feeling that a nob + 11 boyz in a trukk is a good option, but there seem to be too few boyz left to attack. Is getting a bigger transport vehicle a better option? Or used mobs of 30 and footslog them around?

4) Stormoboyz seem good on paper, how do they hold up against trukk + boyz combination for effectivness?

1. It is not useless as if an enemy assaults you without grenades then you get to attack first. Apart from that it is useless but at the same time what army doesn't have at least some ap2/ap1 gear.

2. Shock attack gun or that strength 8 cannon you can get on your vehicles. But basically powerclaws are the best option and the easiest. Every unit that can have a powerclaw should have a powerclaw.

3. Its either or. Either you take a fast boyz army all in trucks and swarm the enemy with armour and boyz in their deployment zone. They dont have a lot of bodies in their units but the idea is to shock and awe the enemy so you shouldn't need them. Or you take large units of boyz and have them run across the board all the while taking losses from the enemy. WAlking orks are very popular when they have a kan wall in front of them giving them a cover save and even more so when there is a big mek behind the kan wall giving the kans a cover save too.

4. They are fast but pretty fragile. They dont have the numbers to take casualties and they dont have the protection of a truck. If you do take them, take a single unit only and use them to hit enemy anti tank or something.

[gabado]

in the last thread, i mentioned that i was participating in a 500pt tournament next month, i want to play black templars, but i'm not set 100% on using the BT codex (over the SM codex that is). so here are a few list ideas:
hq:
castellan 90pt
-power weapon
-storm bolter
-melta bombs

command squad 120pt
-terminator honors and power weapon (sergeant only)
-apothecary
-bolt pistols and ccw's

troop:
initiate squad A 145pt
-5 initiates, 5 neophytes (all with ccw's)
-heavy bolter
-melta gun

initiate squad B 145pt
-5 initiates, 5 neophytes (all with ccw's)
-heavy bolter
-melta gun

total: 500pt

HQ:
castellan 80pt
-power weapon

Elite:
dreadnought 115pt
-assault cannon
-heavy flamer

Troop:
initiate squad A 90pt
-power weapon
initiate squad B 90pt
-power weapon

Heavy support:
vindicator 125pt

total: 500pt

my meta is composed of tyranid, ork and vanilla marine players. there is a tau player, and a grey knights player, but besides that everyone falls into one of the afore mentioned categories.

the first list is an anti-horde type list. the quintessential idea being that while you have twice as many guys as i do, i still have 15 power armor wearing, emperor's oath saying, pissed off dudes with power swords (and 10 scouts...)

the second list is very heavy hitting, with a vindicator and a dreadnought. my fear with this list is that it will be vulnerable to getting vehicle-destroyed results early on in the game.

as far as using the a different codex goes (due to the fact that black templars are underpowered, out dated, and overpriced), i don't feel that codex SM really goes well with the battle code of the black templars. i was thinking about maybe using the blood angels codex, but without any jump infantry models. that way i could have assaulting troop, without jump packs that is, that roll around in mechanized formations. well in any event, here's what i came up with:
hq:
reclusiarch 130pt
troop:
5-man assault squad 125pt
-power weapon
-meltagun
razorback 60pt
-lasplas
-dozer blade

5-man assault squad 125pt
-power weapon
-meltagun
razorback 60pt
-lasplas
-dozer blade

total 500pt
feel free to yell at me about using the BA codex to represent BT, i don't like it myself :smalltongue: it just seems to parallel BT play style more than the SM codex does.

[Cheesegear]

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

Which Armies cost the least?

There's a link in the OP.

Cheapest army; Not really certain. All the non-Space Marine armies are fairly expensive. And that's not because GW loves Space Marines (inb4crying). It's because points costs in other Codecies are lower which means you need more models.

Mechanising makes every army expensive.

[Ricky S]

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

Which Armies cost the least?

There are two uber cheap armies. Either play draigo wing. Which is the paladin army of greyknights or nipplewing which is the sanguinary guard army of the blood angels. Both only need around 20 models at 2000pts. They are not tournament grade armies but definately fun to play.

[Tome]

Yeah, assault deterrent was what I was going for, more or less. And if anyone gets close without hitting me (for some reason...I didn't think that part through) I'd roast them. I should probably change those to something else now, though...

Yeah, that's not a terrible idea. Should I change them to have Missiles or Mortars (lolmortars), or just swap to Grenade Launchers in place of the flamers and call it a day? Or drop them entirely, and grab a unit of Ratlings or Storm Troopers or Marbo?

Unfortunately, my FO Slots are limited for the tournament I mentioned, and I can only have 1 HQ, 3 Troops, and up to two of any of the rest (max 5 units).

I'd say, if you're that limited on FO choices, just stick with the Lascannons.

If you just drop the flamers you can afford another Infantry Squad with an Autocannon.

[Wraith]

There are two uber cheap armies. Either play draigo wing. Which is the paladin army of greyknights or nipplewing which is the sanguinary guard army of the blood angels. Both only need around 20 models at 2000pts. They are not tournament grade armies but definately fun to play.

Also applies to Deathwing - Like Draigowing, you just need 1 metal model (Belial) and then 20 plastic Terminators, which can be found reasonably cheaply.

Of the three, Deathwing is probably the cheapest to buy since you can use generic Terminators which are available in abundance on eBay and the likes, whereas the other two require specific (and fairly recent) models that aren't so easy to get hold of outside of a GW Store. :smallsmile:

[TheNabster]

Play Necrons
Wait forever for a new codex because they are not really good for much apart from walk and shoot
Finally get new codex
Read contents
Squee

It has all the things I could have wanted from it and more. More special characters, more options for my army, cool new stuff. I approve of its contents

[banjo1985]

Ive played another game tonight (my Orks vs Blood Angels, my second game of 40K) and have a few tactical questions:

1) Keeping space marines in cover is useless unless your opponent has AP 3 or better shooting? You can make only one type save for each wound?

2) How to deal with Feel No Pain without powerklaws as Orks? Or are the Power Klawz the orky answer to everything?

3) Ive got a feeling that a nob + 11 boyz in a trukk is a good option, but there seem to be too few boyz left to attack. Is getting a bigger transport vehicle a better option? Or used mobs of 30 and footslog them around?

4) Stormoboyz seem good on paper, how do they hold up against trukk + boyz combination for effectivness?

Ricky answered all these well, but a couple of addendums from me:

1) You can only take one type of save for each wound, and obviously you take the best one you have available. There are caveats to this in Feel No Pain (you can take this after you've already failed a save, depending on the type of wound you received), and some army specific rules like Necron Reanimation Protocols.

3) There's the option of a Battlewagon (can carry 20) but its a waste on Boyz really. As Ricky said, bigger units of Boyz can footslog, but they need Force Fields, cover saves or the Ard Boyz upgrade to get them across the table. 12 Boyz and a Nob with a Klaw are usually enough to see off most non-Assault units on the charge, so I tend to go with lots of smaller Boyz units. For large opponent units or tougher assaulty stuff, just assault with multiple units on the same turn.

4) Honestly, in my experience Stormboyz are hopeless, which is a shame because the models are great. Boss Zagstrukk makes them slightly less awful, purely because you can guarantee to get them into Assault before they get shot, and his Power Klaw equivalent hits at I4 on the charge. If you want to use them, take a unit of 10-ish with Zagstrukk and Deepstrike them into assault with a back-field shooty unit that's causing you trouble. They should have enough to kill it, but then they'll be shot to pieces. Deffkoptas and Buggies are much better FA choices though, so you may just be better off going for them. Or just use Stormboyz because the models are awesome, there's no harm in that outside of a tournament. Just don't expect them to do much. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Play Necrons
Wait forever for a new codex because they are not really good for much apart from walk and shoot
Finally get new codex
Read contents
Squee

It has all the things I could have wanted from it and more. More special characters, more options for my army, cool new stuff. I approve of its contents

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!

[TheNabster]

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!

Wait what

*Rereads*

Sweeeeeet.

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, or just a vanilla Overlord. But its just like Creed and Jarren Kell, you can't really field one without the other. I mean you can do it, but it doesn't feel right, and they compliment each other so well anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

Though I picked a bad example there - I thought Stealth applied Night Fighting rules, not just +1 to Cover saves. It's gonna be hard to get a Monolith into cover where it gets a save.

A say, Tank Hunting Doom Scythe or Doomsday Ark's not bad though. Or just a Stealthed Hull-Down Doomsday Ark blowing the crap out of enemy formations with its 3+ cover save.

[Shadow Lord]

Alright, Necrons or Dark Eldar? Which one should I go for?

[hamishspence]

Sweeeeeet.

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, or just a vanilla Overlord. But its just like Creed and Jarren Kell, you can't really field one without the other. I mean you can do it, but it doesn't feel right, and they compliment each other so well anyway.

If you have the points to spare, you can take Zahndrekh, Obyron, and another HQ- since Obyron takes up no HQ slots if the army also includes Zahndrekh.

[Cheesegear]

Alright, Necrons or Dark Eldar? Which one should I go for?

Aren't you looking for cheap? 'Cause Dark Eldar ain't it. You need boats. And that's not cheap.

Necrons? Well, I don't like them. And, certainly at this point in time you're not going to be a unique snowflake for getting them. But there's no real reason not to get them. Although it's certainly seeming that vehicles, too, are invaluable in a Necron army. And so that means 'not cheap' either. If you had gone for Necrons, say...Three months ago, they would've been the cheapest army around and you would have a leg up by now...But, time's change.

[lord_khaine]

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!


Or better yet, as i recall they have a couple of units that can turbo boost, after a aplication of stealth that would turn into a 2+ cover save (not 100% certain on this one though)

And yeah, tank hunting Doom scythes are going to be hilarious against tightly packed mech units.

Another option i were considering though, is furiously charging scarabs, that would suddenly result in 50 attacks at S4 and I3, something that might very well kill a lot of normal assult units.

[Borgh]

Wait what

*Rereads*

Sweeeeeet.

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, each other so well anyway.

you can take three characters if you like, the Zahny+Obyron combo only takes up one hq slot (page 88, Obyrons entry)

[TheNabster]

you can take three characters if you like, the Zahny+Obyron combo only takes up one hq slot (page 88, Obyrons entry)


If you have the points to spare, you can take Zahndrekh, Obyron, and another HQ- since Obyron takes up no HQ slots if the army also includes Zahndrekh.

Handy! So I can still have Trazyn in my army if I wanted him in. Which I do because a HQ unit that counts as a Socring unit and can never really die as long as I have enough bodies is excellent in my book. Oh yeah and his ability to obliterate hordes of units in one round of combat is fine too

[Trixie]

as far as using the a different codex goes (due to the fact that black templars are underpowered, out dated, and overpriced), i don't feel that codex SM really goes well with the battle code of the black templars. i was thinking about maybe using the blood angels codex, but without any jump infantry models. that way i could have assaulting troop, without jump packs that is, that roll around in mechanized formations. well in any event, here's what i came up with:

hq:
reclusiarch 130pt
troop:
5-man assault squad 125pt
-power weapon
-meltagun
razorback 60pt
-lasplas
-dozer blade

5-man assault squad 125pt
-power weapon
-meltagun
razorback 60pt
-lasplas
-dozer blade

total 500pt

Hmm, you'd be much better off taking a Librarian :smallamused:


Also applies to Deathwing - Like Draigowing, you just need 1 metal model (Belial) and then 20 plastic Terminators, which can be found reasonably cheaply.

Of the three, Deathwing is probably the cheapest to buy since you can use generic Terminators which are available in abundance on eBay and the likes, whereas the other two require specific (and fairly recent) models that aren't so easy to get hold of outside of a GW Store. :smallsmile:

And this post here is a winner.

Yeah, I kind of wonder why Deathwing was only fourth reply... :P

[HalfTangible]

Hmm, you'd be much better off taking a Librarian :smallamused:

*arms a flamethrower and sets up a machine gun before realizing GPT isn't talking to me*

Insert objective marker joke here! :D

[Borgh]

*arms a flamethrower and sets up a machine gun before realizing GPT isn't talking to me*

Insert objective marker joke here! :D

flamer and heavy bolter? Way too schizophrenic, you are much better off with a libarian.
*rimshot*

[Trixie]

flamer and heavy bolter? Way too schizophrenic, you are much better off with a libarian.
*rimshot*

Hmm, I'm afraid only an Epistolary could make this combination work :smallamused:
*triple-rimshot*

[HalfTangible]

flamer and heavy bolter? Way too schizophrenic, you are much better off with a libarian.
*rimshot*

*grabs some nails, drags them down a chalkboard*

GlaDOS: THAT'S YOU.

Overreaction is a part of the joke

[Erloas]

Someone bought the Necron at the shop before I got a chance to check it out, though I assume my brother will have got another copy or two in this week.

Not really much to say, but I needed to mark the thread.

[Winterwind]

Someone bought the Necron at the shop before I got a chance to check it out, though I assume my brother will have got another copy or two in this week.

Not really much to say, but I needed to mark the thread.I've decided to write an analysis of every unit in the codex - I may not be the most qualified 40k player (I think I'm much better at Fantasy), but I've spend a lot of time discussing the new Necrons with a friend of mine who plays them, so I have at least spent a fair amount of time reflecting on them. Just gimme a day or two...

[Arcanoi]

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, or just a vanilla Overlord. But its just like Creed and Jarren Kell, you can't really field one without the other. I mean you can do it, but it doesn't feel right, and they compliment each other so well anyway.

Obyron doesn't really synergize with Zahndrekh. In fact, he doesn't synergize with much of anything. He's just combat, and as a combat HQ he's pretty bad. Sure, he gets WS6, but you're paying somewhere around 20 points for the privilege. And sure, his special rule makes him the only Necron HQ capable of threatening other Combat HQs. But with no ++ and very little else, he'd be better off as 3 1/2 Lords with Warscythes. Zahndrekh, though, is good people.

[crazedloon]

Obyron doesn't really synergize with Zahndrekh. In fact, he doesn't synergize with much of anything. He's just combat, and as a combat HQ he's pretty bad. Sure, he gets WS6, but you're paying somewhere around 20 points for the privilege. And sure, his special rule makes him the only Necron HQ capable of threatening other Combat HQs. But with no ++ and very little else, he'd be better off as 3 1/2 Lords with Warscythes. Zahndrekh, though, is good people.

Obyron is well worth his points. As a utility character he is the only one who can teleport out of combat (which is a place you don't want to be with your I 2) and as a combat character since the majority of things swinging his way are missing half the time you net enough attacks to swing most combats in your favor (or at least enough to even the combat results)

Now as far as synergy that is his middle name when it comes you talk about Zahndrek.
-basic use of Obyron is best left vs horde armies but works against even smaller elite armies, that is have the two in diffrent units (more often than not zah in a back unit as support and Obyron in the front as counter assault) but when Zahndrek gets assaulted (as he will) Obyron gets to pile in which more often than not means you can sneak him in the rear of units where there is nothing but rank and file (and if its a horde this is a lot of rank and file not normaly getting their attacks) which will do little to nothing to him (being ws 6 they will miss alot (which means more attack) being t 5 they will fail to wound a lot and having a 2+ you will save most if not all that makes it through the first two hurdles ) and thus net him a lot of attacks to again swing the combat in his favor.
-more useful use for the pair however is the command barge transport method. You drop Zahndrek in his command barge. Which he than turbos to the other side of the board in the most advantageous angle for shooting. Obyron than teleports accurately with 20 warriors (or your preferred unit) next to the barge and unloads on the chosen target. You can rinse and repeat as necessary. Unless your opponent stops the barge (which is not easy being a living metal av 13 vehicle with a cover save which if you are feel like it can have stealth) you can keep doing this and there is very little which stops it since they can teleport out of combat and you can't lock a vehicle in combat

[Etcetera]

Obyron gets to pile in which more often than not means you can sneak him in the rear of units where there is nothing but rank and file (and if its a horde this is a lot of rank and file not normaly getting their attacks) which will do little to nothing to him (being ws 6 they will miss alot (which means more attack)

Anything with a WS above 2 is hitting on 4s, right? Unless he has some special rule that prevents this.

[Trixie]

Also applies to Deathwing - Like Draigowing, you just need 1 metal model (Belial) and then 20 plastic Terminators, which can be found reasonably cheaply.

Nitpick - is metal Belial still even sold? :smallconfused:


1. It is not useless as if an enemy assaults you without grenades then you get to attack first. Apart from that it is useless but at the same time what army doesn't have at least some ap2/ap1 gear.

Orks? :smallconfused:


Which Armies cost the least?

Besides options mentioned above, there's also Wolfwing.

[Timberwolf]

Nitpick - is metal Belial still even sold? :smallconfused:


I don't think so. I use Tyberos the Red Wake as my Lightning claw Belial

[Arcanoi]

Obyron is well worth his points. As a utility character he is the only one who can teleport out of combat (which is a place you don't want to be with your I 2) and as a combat character since the majority of things swinging his way are missing half the time you net enough attacks to swing most combats in your favor (or at least enough to even the combat results)


An opponent that knows about his special rules is only going to be swinging at him with things that can hurt him. So, Fists and Co and MCs. His Ghost Shroud is essentially just a fancy Hit And Run unless you have Zahndrehk perfectly positioned 9 1/2" behind the combat.



-basic use of Obyron is best left vs horde armies but works against even smaller elite armies, that is have the two in diffrent units (more often than not zah in a back unit as support and Obyron in the front as counter assault) but when Zahndrek gets assaulted (as he will) Obyron gets to pile in which more often than not means you can sneak him in the rear of units where there is nothing but rank and file (and if its a horde this is a lot of rank and file not normaly getting their attacks) which will do little to nothing to him (being ws 6 they will miss alot (which means more attack) being t 5 they will fail to wound a lot and having a 2+ you will save most if not all that makes it through the first two hurdles ) and thus net him a lot of attacks to again swing the combat in his favor.


I think you can do better with 160 points than this.



-more useful use for the pair however is the command barge transport method. You drop Zahndrek in his command barge. Which he than turbos to the other side of the board in the most advantageous angle for shooting. Obyron than teleports accurately with 20 warriors (or your preferred unit) next to the barge and unloads on the chosen target. You can rinse and repeat as necessary. Unless your opponent stops the barge (which is not easy being a living metal av 13 vehicle with a cover save which if you are feel like it can have stealth) you can keep doing this and there is very little which stops it since they can teleport out of combat and you can't lock a vehicle in combat

For 700 points, you too can rapid-fire with 20 Necron Warriors.

[Renegade Paladin]

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!
How in the name of the Emperor are you going to get a Monolith a cover save to use Stealth with, though? :smalltongue:

[Etcetera]

How in the name of the Emperor are you going to get a Monolith a cover save to use Stealth with, though? :smalltongue:

Half-hiding it behind the wrecked carcasses of its predecessors.

[Arcanoi]

How in the name of the Emperor are you going to get a Monolith a cover save to use Stealth with, though? :smalltongue:

Second Monolith!

[Squark]

Anything with a WS above 2 is hitting on 4s, right? Unless he has some special rule that prevents this.

No, I'm pretty sure at WS 6, WS 3 and maybe WS 4 would also need 5+ to hit...

The weapon skill to-hit table is one of the most annoying to memorize, simply because it goes from 3+ to 5+.

[The Glyphstone]

Or Third Monolith! At 600 points for the three, and no Phase Out rules, it's a bad idea but not awful. Just hunker down behind and wait for your reserves to trigger (maybe with the Special Character that re-rolls reserves), and drop a Wall O' Monoliths in front of your enemy's army.

[Squark]

Or Third Monolith! At 600 points for the three, and no Phase Out rules, it's a bad idea but not awful. Just hunker down behind and wait for your reserves to trigger (maybe with the Special Character that re-rolls reserves), and drop a Wall O' Monoliths in front of your enemy's army.

Except for the living metal nerf, since now Meltaguns can cut through the Monolith's armor just like they do a Landraider, and landraiders at least can move at cruising speed.

[Timberwolf]

No, I'm pretty sure at WS 6, WS 3 and maybe WS 4 would also need 5+ to hit...

The weapon skill to-hit table is one of the most annoying to memorize, simply because it goes from 3+ to 5+.

I've never had a problem. If your WS is higher, you hit on 3's. If your WS is 2x higher plus 1, so WS 7 vs Ws 3, for example, your opponent hits on 5's.

[lord_khaine]

Second Monolith!

Actualy, in my club we have a lot of city ruins, most of thos would give cover to a monolith.

The problem is it kinda needs to move forward to be of any value, since it doesnt have the firepower to hand around at the back and poke people.

[Ninjaman]

12 Boyz and a Nob with a Klaw are usually enough to see off most non-Assault units on the charge, so I tend to go with lots of smaller Boyz units. For large opponent units or tougher assaulty stuff, just assault with multiple units on the same turn.

Don't you want large units in order to gain fearless? Ld 7 ain't going to hold for long.


Alright, Necrons or Dark Eldar? Which one should I go for?

What playstyle do you prefer? Fast elite, or tough hordlike (still some what elite).


Besides options mentioned above, there's also Wolfwing.

Wolfguards?

[filvento]

Maybe stealth to Deathmarks and shot everything, or to a Ghost ark.. BUt to a monolith, seems stupid.
Still, that skill its pretty nice, you can use furious charge in wraits or something like that.. that HQ, is PRETTY nice.

a 1500 list. What do you guys THink?


Imotek The Stormlord . 225
Nemezor Zandrek.........185

Ghost Ark 115
Ghost Ark 115
Catacomb Command Barage w/ Imotek 80

9 Warriors 117
10 Warriors 130

6 Wraiths with Whip coils 260 ( One Doesnt have Whip )
6 Wraiths with Whip Coils 270

TOTAL: 1497 - For a 1500 list.

I think its pretty offensive and can deal with alot of armies.
Im not sure.. still a prototype or thinking.
Tell me your thougts

[lord_khaine]

I gotta say, im personaly not that caught up on the stormlord myself.

Have you consideret the posibility of replacing him with a destroyer lord, to run around with the Wraiths?
Imo those 2 units synergise really well.

Also, you are kinda low on models, isnt around 32 men a bit low in a 1500 point army?

Im also thinking only having 2 vehicles in 1500 points will mean that they get blown appart far to quickly to be worth taking.

As for the wraiths, i would like to recomend taking them with 2*pistol and 2*times whip.
The pistols should give them an additional attack in CC, and that combination allows for wound allocation shenanigans.

Lasty, imo no Necron army is complete without a lot of scarabs :smalltongue:

[Arcanoi]

6 Wraiths with Whip coils 260 ( One Doesnt have Whip )
6 Wraiths with Whip Coils 270


Well, first you could break them up into 3 units of 4. Also, at most half of the unit needs Whip Coils. In fact....

Wraiths x4 - 170
- 1x Particle Caster
- 1x Whip Coils
- 1x Whip Coils and Particle Caster

can play Dancing Wounds. Which is pretty nasty with 3++.

Other than that, you're probably spending a bit too much on HQs. I'd probably drop Imotek, his Command Barge, and 4 or so wraiths for another squad of Warriors and maybe some Lords to lead them or a Destroy Lord for the Wraiths. Probably some Scarabs too.

[filvento]

I think the Stormlord can be Great.. maybe its a bit expensive. But you can play with Night rules alot! You cant get destroyed but any GI or anything.. till you get ready for rapid fire.. and, their units get destroyed by the storm in the first turns..
Mybe it can be
4 Wraiths
4 Wraiths.. so i dont spend that many poin ts and 2x pistols 2 whipcoils

What would you guys add? More warriors?

[Shadow Lord]

I'm thinking that a horde-like army would be neat, especially if it had a few powerful peoples to go with it.

[Voidhawk]

I've been having mixed reactions to the Necron update. Some of the stuff is pretty cool (like always), but why are the Imperium the only side to get versitile units that can deal with anything?
What's wrong with adaptable tactics xenos? :smallfrown:*crys silently*
...Ahem.
Anyway:

Wraiths are awesome, but they alas can only take one of the options each. My prefered wound allocation currently is:

1 wraith bare
1 wraith with particle pistol
2 wraiths with whip coils
total: 165

And yes, Wraiths paired with a Destroyer Lord are exactly as vicious as they look. Screw Lychguard.

Also, am I a bad person, or merely a bad list builder? I looked at the dex for the first time and came up with the horror below. Be aware...I like lightning...ALOT.

Mechrons
or "Deep strike mishaps, a Demonstration"

Orikan the Diviner -165pts
6 Immortals with Gauss Blasters in a Night Scythe - 202pts
6 Immortals with Gauss Blasters in a Night Scythe
6 Immortals with Gauss Blasters in a Night Scythe
6 Immortals with Gauss Blasters in a Night Scythe
Doom Scythe - 175pts
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Final Cost: - 1498pts

The look on their faces when your army comes in from nowhere on turn 2... and then explodes against the terrain: - Priceless :smalltongue:

I then made some alterations and extensions and created this monstrosity:

Mechrons MKII
or Riders on the Storm

Orikan the Diviner - 165pts
Imhotek the Stormlord - 225pts
Royal Court (Lord with Tesseract Labyrinth, Harbinger of Eternity with Chronometron) - 95pts
5 Warriors in a Night Scythe - 165
5 Warriors in a Night Scythe
5 Warriors in a Night Scythe
5 Warriors in a Night Scythe
5 Warriors in a Night Scythe
5 Warriors in a Night Scythe
Doom Scythe - 175pts
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Final Total: - 2000pts

This one actually has some thought put into it. *gasp!*
Primarily about what happens when a Harbinger of Eternity (which I originally thought were...less than stella...) is paired with Imhotek or Orikan.
Answer: Instant C'tan or rerollable Lightning. When you control time, Empowerment really DOES last longer! :smallamused:

I quite like the Night Scythe's "Don't Disembark on Death" thing. it means you don't have to assign any troops to guard your own objectives, as when the Night Scythes start dropping out of the sky, the troops they were carrying can enter on your board edge and just walk to them. Meanwhile the ones who actually disembarked can attack the enemy.

I actually don't intend for everything in this one to be in Deep Strike, just the Doom Scythes so they can drop into optimal Tank Busting position, what with the whole Range 12" issue. The Kight-Sighs on the other hand run around in the dark at Cruising speed, looking for side shots on enemy vehicles, or units within 6" of each other to "Pray-for-6's!" at.

Not sure if I have enough Strength 7 Lightning though, is 36 Twinlinked shots really enough?...*

(incidently, math hammer gives around 25-48~ish Destructor hits...if they all fire...which they will never get to. :smallwink:)

*Health Warning: Buying 9 Night/Doom Scythe kits has been known to cause spontaneous-wallet-combustion. Seek professional advice.

[crazedloon]

An opponent that knows about his special rules is only going to be swinging at him with things that can hurt him. So, Fists and Co and MCs. His Ghost Shroud is essentially just a fancy Hit And Run unless you have Zahndrehk perfectly positioned 9 1/2" behind the combat.
Except that if you are base to base with him you must swing at him. As the necron player you can use this to your advantage by keeping him in the back of the unit making it hard for your opponent to reach him. Than with his pile in move you can place him base to base 2 or more enemy models and keep the rest of your models away. This nets you on average 2 attacks (2 models charging have 4 attacks at the least hitting only half the time)

Why must Zahndrehk be so close to the combat to work? Part of the advantage of the two together is that you can make a rather swift hit and run force with necrons.


I think you can do better with 160 points than this.
Ok what is it, if you can do better what would you use.

[Arcanoi]

Why must Zahndrehk be so close to the combat to work? Part of the advantage of the two together is that you can make a rather swift hit and run force with necrons.


Otherwise they can teleport... where exactly? All the way across the map? Now whatever they were doing has failed almost as surely as if they were killed. Holding an objective? Not anymore. Advancing up the board alone? Why? Zahndrekh being 9 1/2" behind allows them to Rapid Fire whatever was assaulting them. That's about it. Not to mention, they were still assaulted by something that wanted to assault them.



Ok what is it, if you can do better what would you use.

3 1/2 Lords with Warscythes bring 7 attacks to the table at the same S. More wounds and more Reanimation Saves too. Alternatively, a Destroyer Lord + a Warscythe Lord bring 5 Attacks, 3 with Preferred Enemy, and one is Jump Infantry. Again, more wounds and Reanimation Saves.

[crazedloon]

Otherwise they can teleport... where exactly? All the way across the map? Now whatever they were doing has failed almost as surely as if they were killed. Holding an objective? Not anymore. Advancing up the board alone? Why? Zahndrekh being 9 1/2" behind allows them to Rapid Fire whatever was assaulting them. That's about it. Not to mention, they were still assaulted by something that wanted to assault them.
-objectives need not be held until the last turn as such being off of it but safe (and dealing with another unit) is not failing its doing your job.
-advancing up the board is very important, 1/3 the games you play have 2 objective only 1 in your opponents half you need to take that objective and this combo allows that with speed and accuracy.
-yes if need be you can indeed Teleport only a little bit from the assault to rapid fire on your assailants but I don't see how that is a bad thing. Also the reason I preffer a big unit of warriors as my unit to stick him with is that they are harder to get rid of entirely (which is needed to prevent them coming back) even for a unit of dedicated CC guys


3 1/2 Lords with Warscythes bring 7 attacks to the table at the same S. More wounds and more Reanimation Saves too. Alternatively, a Destroyer Lord + a Warscythe Lord bring 5 Attacks, 3 with Preferred Enemy, and one is Jump Infantry. Again, more wounds and Reanimation Saves.

you can't have half a lord so ignoring that
-you break even on wounds
-you net 3 more base attacks than obyron, but he has an ability which will net him extra attacks.

so base stat line if simple attacks are all you are looking for you have won out however,

-you now need 3 more units to shove those lords into otherwise you have very expensive unit for no reason.
-you only have 1 wound before the regen save which is not a good thing (like you seem to be implying) because once you are dead you are dead
-you have a worse armor save thus netting more wounds
-you lack the ability to move quickly around the battlefield (something you can do even without the nemesor)
-once your stuck in combat you are stuck in combat

the destroyer lord combo is interesting but it requires you to run another jump infantry unit to run with him (otherwise he is just missile bate) and is not strictly better.

The main reason Obyron is so good is that he is a force multiplier for more than just combat (which is all your examples do)

[Cheesegear]

I'll do the whole [Necron] Codex review in a few days.


I've decided to write an analysis of every unit in the [Necron] codex

...So, I can stop writing now? I'm fully prepared to do nothing. I'm good at that!

Although I have been playing a fair few games against Necrons (they haven't impressed my Dark Eldar at all yet), and I've done a straight 'port of my old Necron list and played with that for a bit (destroyed by Wolves). So, yeah. That's how it's going.


I'm thinking that a horde-like army would be neat, especially if it had a few powerful peoples to go with it.

Sounds like you want Black Templars, really.

Space Marines being Marines, are slightly less expensive than most other armies. Black Templars are an incredibly good foot-list, so you aren't 'wasting' money on Vehicles. And, while the dedicated Templar sprue definitely makes Templars better (Pistols and Chainswords for everyone!), it's not really needed to win. Templars do fine with Bolters.

The other option is Wolves. Wolves are incredibly good if you want to be cheap. Smallest (and therefore cheapest) army I can think of;
Logan, Njal, Canis, Ulrik, Wolf Guard to fill points. You'll be lucky to have more than 20 models most games. Maybe grab some Fenrisian Wolves (Goblin Wolf Riders box) so Canis doesn't get shot to poop instantly. Obviously, the list isn't very good. Since all your points are tied up in single-models, and to throw your units around, you'll need to be MSU.

[Shadow Lord]

Hm... is there any other armies that can be played like that? Because most of the people I know want Spess Mehrens, and I don't particularly feel like being just another flavor of the same.

[hamishspence]

Although I have been playing a fair few games against Necrons (they haven't impressed my Dark Eldar at all yet), and I've done a straight 'port of my old Necron list and played with that for a bit (destroyed by Wolves). So, yeah. That's how it's going.

That might be because Necrons are rather more reliant of vehicles now- have you tried using proxies for the Night Scythe, Doom Scythe, and Doomsday Ark? Or for the various character models?

Necrons can race like the Dark Eldar can (their fastest Dedicated Transport is supersonic and can deep strike- whereas DE need either Sliscus or Retrofire Jets upgrade to Deep Strike with transports, and even with Ethersails only do 24" + 2d6" flat out, in Raiders).

[Winterwind]

No, I'm pretty sure at WS 6, WS 3 and maybe WS 4 would also need 5+ to hit...

The weapon skill to-hit table is one of the most annoying to memorize, simply because it goes from 3+ to 5+.That's why you shouldn't memorize the table, you should memorize the rules that are responsible for that table.

If you have more WS than your target, you hit on a 3+.
If you have at least half as much WS as your target, but not more WS than your target, you hit on a 4+.
If you have less than half as much WS as your target, you hit on a 5+.

Which, yes, means that at WS6, something with WS3 still hits you on a 4+. You need WS7 for something with WS3 to need a 5+. And WS9 for something with WS4 to require that. Models with WS5 or better always hit on at least 4+.


...So, I can stop writing now? I'm fully prepared to do nothing. I'm good at that!No no no, by all means, go on! :smalleek:
I'm sure all the others would... not appreciate, if the Cheesegear New Codex Review™ was supplanted by the inane ramblings of some noob. :smallwink:

[Etcetera]

That's why you shouldn't memorize the table, you should memorize the rules that are responsible for that table.

If you have more WS than your target, you hit on a 3+.
If you have at least half as much WS as your target, but not more WS than your target, you hit on a 4+.
If you have less than half as much WS as your target, you hit on a 5+.

Which, yes, means that at WS6, something with WS3 still hits you on a 4+. You need WS7 for something with WS3 to need a 5+. And WS9 for something with WS4 to require that. Models with WS5 or better always hit on at least 4+.


This. TBH, I'm convinced that sometimes the table can do more harm than good.

[Cheesegear]

Hm... is there any other armies that can be played like that? Because most of the people I know want Spess Mehrens, and I don't particularly feel like being just another flavor of the same.

No. Other armies that play 'Horde-style' don't have Power Armour.


That might be because Necrons are rather more reliant of vehicles now- have you tried using proxies for the Night Scythe, Doom Scythe, and Doomsday Ark? Or for the various character models?

Yes. In some cases we even used actual models. Like I've said earlier in thread, people in my meta-game are actually picking up the Necron Codex and using it.


Necrons can race like the Dark Eldar

What's the point in that, though? Great. You made it up the board. Wyches then jump out with 3 attacks each, Combat Drugs gives whatever, I5 goes crazy, then a 4+ Invulnerable to combat the survivors.
...Then Sweeping Advance for Victory!

Necrons...Don't do that. They race up the board...Then don't shoot because they went too fast (Dark Eldar don't even do that...). So, Necrons go 12" up the board...And shoot. Any army can do that. Doesn't really compare against Stormravens either.

Ravagers and Razorwings have Aerial Assault. And that's not fair.


whereas DE need either Sliscus

...Who doesn't take Sliscus? Point them out to me so I can tell them how wrong they are.


I'm sure all the others would... not appreciate, if the Cheesegear New Codex Review™ was supplanted by the inane ramblings of some noob. :smallwink:

...Huh? I was thinking more about you. I'd hate for you to write up a whole thing if you didn't really want to.

[Winterwind]

...Huh? I was thinking more about you. I'd hate for you to write up a whole thing if you didn't really want to.Don't worry; if I didn't feel like writing that thing, I wouldn't have volunteered it. It's not like anyone came and asked me to do so, anyhow. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

What's the point in that, though? Great. You made it up the board. Wyches then jump out with 3 attacks each, Combat Drugs gives whatever, I5 goes crazy, then a 4+ Invulnerable to combat the survivors.
...Then Sweeping Advance for Victory!


I don't think the point is to go straight down the throat with Necrons - all that maneuverability just gives you unprecedented mobility. With Supersonic, you can give up one turn of shooting to redeploy your entire intact army pretty much anywhere you want on the board, letting you focus fire your attacks where it'll be most effective. Against an enemy gunline, you can take half their formation out of play for a turn or two at least; against enemy assault that isn't Dark Eldar, you can play 'can't touch me' very easily.

[Winterwind]

I don't think the point is to go straight down the throat with Necrons - all that maneuverability just gives you unprecedented mobility. With Supersonic, you can give up one turn of shooting to redeploy your entire intact army pretty much anywhere you want on the board, letting you focus fire your attacks where it'll be most effective.Monoliths can help with that, too.

I recall in BattleTech, whenever I was playing Clans versus Inner Sphere, my favourite strategy was to first just basically advance, and then suddenly wheel all my 'Mechs on one flank around and use my superior mobility to concentrate all my army on one side of the map, leaving half of the slower IS 'Mechs uselessly lumbering around on the other side of the map, now facing nothing at all and unable to add their firepower to the fight. It's also somewhat how I tend to play my Eldar, whenever possible. Maybe the Necrons could try doing the same?

[The Glyphstone]

Monoliths can help with that, too.

I recall in BattleTech, whenever I was playing Clans versus Inner Sphere, my favourite strategy was to first just basically advance, and then suddenly wheel all my 'Mechs on one flank around and use my superior mobility to concentrate all my army on one side of the map, leaving half of the slower IS 'Mechs uselessly lumbering around on the other side of the map, now facing nothing at all and unable to add their firepower to the fight. It's also somewhat how I tend to play my Eldar, whenever possible.

Yeah, that's the strategy I'm talking about. And Monoliths can definitely help, both in even more mobility (infinite range teleport ftw) and LOS-blocking with their big fat bulks.

[Cheesegear]

I don't think the point is to go straight down the throat with Necrons - all that maneuverability just gives you unprecedented mobility.

That's fine. I guess I didn't make it clear enough.

Necrons are not bad. Necrons are (IMO) the 'new Tau'. Solid shooting, decent armour, backed up by even more shooting. In fact, you might even call them the new Codex Marines in their playstyle. Certainly without He'Stan or Kor'Sarro (for not getting shot at), Marines are mostly crapping their pants.

What I'm trying to say, is that to be better than 'not bad'. You need to be able to compare - favorably, at least with 50:50 success - to the top tier armies, which Necrons don't.

[Ricky S]

I heard an interesting idea for the new necron codex. Basically take a C'tan and a wraith. The wraith makes models in base contact iniative 1 and the C'tan makes a single model in base to base take an initiative test (so roll a 1) or die. So if you run these two together you can kill any single thing you want with no trouble. Bye bye hive tyrant, bye bye Mephiston, etc.

The past three games I have had with my Celestial Lions I have won. My win to loss ratio is now in the positives so I just need to keep this up.


Here is the list I have been running

HQ
-Captain, Relic Blade, Storm Shield 145pts
-Command Squad, Banner, Storm Shield, 2x Power Weapon, Power Fist 200pts
-Razorback 40pts

Elites
-5 Terminators, Assault Cannon 230pts
-Dreadnought, Multi melta 105pts

Troops
-Tactical Squad, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon 185pts
-Tactical Squad, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon 185pts
-Scout Squad 75pts

Fast attack
-5 Bikes, Powerfist, 2x meltas 185pts

Heavy Support
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launchers 150pts

1500pts



The first game was against orks
His army
-Warboss, powerclaw, cyborg body
-9x Nobs with +2 strength weapon Painboy
-30x Shoota boyz, Powerclaw
-30x Shoota boyz, Powerclaw
-3x Killa Kan, Grotzooka, heavy flamer, rocket launcher
- 9x lootas
-Big mek Shock Attack Gun
-3 Ork bikes with powerclaw
-2 deff coptas with buzzsaw and rocket launchers

The set up was dawn of war anhilation. I won first turn and chose to set up defensively in some buildings. I let him come to me which allowed me to whittle his relatively slow forces down a lot.

My missiles blew chunks out of his ork boyz. My bikes took care of the killa kans as is befitting of their equipment. The dreadnought fought for 6 rounds of combat with the bikers before finally killing them. It was immobilised but stayed alive.

One of my tactical squads was obliterated in close combat and so was the bike unit. But I lost very little else. My opponent managed to roll two double 6's for his shock attack gun but unfortunately for him both scattered off their targets. He managed to miss my devastator squad as well as my terminator squad much to my relief. My command squad dealt with one of the 30 boyz.

The biggest decider of the game was definately where my opponent deployed his nobs. He admitted after the game that he was really worried about the bikes for some reason so thats why he deployed his nobs on the left flank. If they had of been deployed in the middle they would have been free to wreak destruction on my army. However as they were I was able to use the bikes to destract them and keep them off the main part of my army. The finally tally was 7 kill points to 3 in my favour.



My second game was against blood angels.
his list was

-Sanguinor
-Sanguinary guard, powerfist, banner
-Sanguinary Priest, jumpack power weapon
-Sanguinary Priest, jumpack power weapon
-10 Assault marines, 2x meltas, power weapon
-10 Assault marines, 2x meltas, power weapon
-10 Deathcompany, thunderhammer
-Drop Pod

It was pitched battle anhilation. I won first turn again. This game was over pretty quickly. I managed to make one of the assault squad flee off the table on turn one after taking two deaths to missile and two deaths to plasma cannons.

The second assault marine unit moved up and then fell back second turn which allowed me more time to shoot them. When they finally reached combat with my tactical squad they lacked the numbers to break them which meant that my terminators could counter charge and obliterate them.

The sanguinary guard charged my dreadnought and despite the ridiculous number of power fist attacks he had he didn't manage to destroy it at all. For the rest of the game his sanguinary guard was locked in combat with it and finally my terminators came in to mop up the 3 remaining sanguinary guard and the priest.

The death company didn't achieve much because they had no support so a tactical squad, my scout squad and my command squad could deal with them at leisure.

The sanguinor butchered my poor scout squad despite them doing nothing to anyone. He then proceeded to take a bunch of plasma and missile to the face and finally died to massed bolter fire.

At the end of the game I had lost 12 tactical marines, 5 bikes and 5 scouts but my opponent was tabled. To be fair though he had some appalling luck with his rolls and was thoroughly annoyed with his troops. He berated them for being yellow bellied instead of fearless blood angels. The biggest decider was definately his unit fleeing off the board but charging his sanguinary guard against the dreadnought certainly didnt help.



My last game was against Tau. He was the same opponent who obliterated my mechanised blood angels army two weeks before. He was running a farsight tau army this time.

-Farsight
-8 bodyguard with a massive selection of weapons and wargear
-3x Crisis suits with missile pods
-Stealth team with 3 marker drones
-10 Firewarriors
-10 Firewarriors
-Piranhna

It was spear head anhilation. My opponent won first turn and set up his farsight bomb on the table because he was afraid of deepstriking in the terrain rich environment. He had his missile pod crisis suits and firewarriors in the back corner while the rest of his army was being used aggressively.

My terminators were obliterated by plasma fire. My dreadnought managed to draw a heck of a lot of fire and then managed to make all of the 12 or so cover saves he needed. My devastators managed to take off a few models from the crisis bomb before they assaulted my dreadnought. Farsight managed to take off both the arms from my dreadnought before being counter charged by my bike squad and my command squad. By the end of the combat he had only five models left and my two power fists managed to then put 5 wounds out. My opponent then proceeded to fail all of his invulnerable saves.

After my opponent lost his deathstar unit it was just a matter of mopping up the rest. One tactical squad rapid fired the pirahna and blew it up. The other tactical squad rapid fired the stealth team to death. My commander could have single handedly killed the firewarriors if he didnt have his squad with him. In the end he killed 7 of them. The devastator squad took out the missile pod crisis team and that was game.

My opponent had some bad luck but the main problem I think was that tau simply crumble in assault. Even the best assault unit in the army cannot stand up to a single unit from the space marine codex let alone two in one turn. I think the 4th ed tau codex is really starting to show its age.

[hamishspence]

Necrons are not bad. Necrons are (IMO) the 'new Tau'. Solid shooting, decent armour, backed up by even more shooting. In fact, you might even call them the new Codex Marines in their playstyle. Certainly without He'Stan or Kor'Sarro (for not getting shot at), Marines are mostly crapping their pants.

What I'm trying to say, is that to be better than 'not bad'. You need to be able to compare - favorably, at least with 50:50 success - to the top tier armies, which Necrons don't.

That might be the design intent- to create a flexible, "mid-tier" army list that compares favourably with Codex Marines.

[The_Final_Stand]

Which, I suppose, is better than "The only consistent counter to this army is itself".

[Erloas]

I think its kind of ironic when people complain about a new army not being able to consistently win against whatever the most powerful armies are, when it is often those same people who complain about power creep. In theory all armies should be designs to go 50/50 with the mid powered armies, and if one army ends up better then that, thats actually a failing of that single army instead of all of the other armies.

Which of course is also why I don't play competitively. I think the game looses all its fun when all you ever see and all you can ever take yourself is the hand full of lists the "internet" says is best.

[filvento]

I actually think that its stupid. All armies can beat any army.. atleast all the 5th edition ones. Including necrons.
And so, which do you think is the powerful army btw?

Btw, does someobdy know a program or something to try a list? I want to start trying lists for my necrons.. Cause i dont want to buy expsensive things for nothing.. theres is no ONLINE program to play WH40K? FREE?
Thanks

[Shadow Lord]

I'm fine with the Horde not having everyone have power armour. More like a horde with a few elite units here and there. Know what I'm saying?

[Etcetera]

I actually think that its stupid. All armies can beat any army.. atleast all the 5th edition ones. Including necrons.
And so, which do you think is the powerful army btw?

Btw, does someobdy know a program or something to try a list? I want to start trying lists for my necrons.. Cause i dont want to buy expsensive things for nothing.. theres is no ONLINE program to play WH40K? FREE?
Thanks

Vassal 40k, but I don't know if it has new cron models yet.

[ZeltArruin]

I actually think that its stupid. All armies can beat any army.. atleast all the 5th edition ones. Including necrons.
And so, which do you think is the powerful army btw?

Btw, does someobdy know a program or something to try a list? I want to start trying lists for my necrons.. Cause i dont want to buy expsensive things for nothing.. theres is no ONLINE program to play WH40K? FREE?
Thanks

Proxy? That has always worked for me.

[Ninjaman]

Maybe stealth to Deathmarks and shot everything, or to a Ghost ark.. BUt to a monolith, seems stupid.
Still, that skill its pretty nice, you can use furious charge in wraits or something like that.. that HQ, is PRETTY nice.

a 1500 list. What do you guys THink?


Imotek The Stormlord . 225
Nemezor Zandrek.........185

Ghost Ark 115
Ghost Ark 115
Catacomb Command Barage w/ Imotek 80

9 Warriors 117
10 Warriors 130

6 Wraiths with Whip coils 260 ( One Doesnt have Whip )
6 Wraiths with Whip Coils 270

TOTAL: 1497 - For a 1500 list.

I think its pretty offensive and can deal with alot of armies.
Im not sure.. still a prototype or thinking.
Tell me your thougts

You have too many points in HQ. And too few troops.


Hm... is there any other armies that can be played like that? Because most of the people I know want Spess Mehrens, and I don't particularly feel like being just another flavor of the same.


Necrons? Orks?

[filvento]

Try Proxy a Ghost ark :) Lulz. Im getting Vassal40k anyone is welcome to help me try it.

[Squark]

Try Proxy a Ghost ark :) Lulz. Im getting Vassal40k anyone is welcome to help me try it.

It's not as hard as it looks; Just borrow an existing one (ask first!) and trace the base onto a cereal box. Should work for simple testing. Granted, this works better with non-skimmers, but it should still work. Just establish policy on cover saves beforehand.


I'm fine with the Horde not having everyone have power armour. More like a horde with a few elite units here and there. Know what I'm saying?

Hrrrm...

Tyranids have a mix of Giant Monstrous creatures and hordes of little 'gaunts... but they're also considered to be one of the weakest of the 5th edition codexes. And building a Tervigon is tricky for a newbie (since it requires you to convert a Carnifex, which I don't recommend until you have a good hand at modeling).

Guard won't work for the type of horde you're suggesting (and foot guard is crazy expensive). Orks might be a bit better, but not much. Really, if you want to do a horde with Elite units, Black Templars are probably the way to go. Besides, Space Marines really aren't all that homogeneus. Aside from the Six default variations (Chaos marines (who have a lot of variation within themselves), Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Grey Knights, and Dark Angels), Codex Marines can look very different if you deside to go with a chapter that isn't the Ultramarines (be it Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, or my personal favorite, the Salamanders. Not to mention there are hundreds of other lesser known chapters, like Space Sharks, Celestial Lions... And, if all else fails, you can always make up your own chapter*).

*Just don't name them the Emperor's Pointy Sticks. That one has been taken.

[filvento]

Maybe.. I can try that. Still not that easy.
I've got Vassal40k. Would someone mind playing a game with me and teaching how to?

[ZeltArruin]

Try Proxy a Ghost ark :) Lulz. Im getting Vassal40k anyone is welcome to help me try it.

I've proxied a land raider as a dryer sheet, they are surprisingly close to the same foot print. Paper Eldar tanks, paper Dark Eldar Tanks, blank base terminators and thunder wolves, french fry cup dreadnaught defiler. The list goes on.

[BoSheck]

Re horde-style gameplay:

Orks would be the least expensive true horde as long as you're willing to ebay for boyz and don't mind the AoBR ones. Thats what I'm given to understand. For the "lots of guys, and a few elite hitters' you'd go with: boyz on foot with a big mob hiding a KFF mech and Kans in front with a Klaw in every mob. Really standard ork build, fairly effective. Hates flamers.

Black Templar are, fluff-wise, the power armored horde army and as far as splashing an elite style unit: their terminators can rock pretty hardcore. Not familiar with the codex, can't give you a list example. Seen 'em in action plenty, though.

Moving on I feel like blood angels DoA can be sufficiently hordish. You just get assault marines, assault marines, assault marines, give each sarge a fist, throw a few special weapons in the mix, grab a sanguinary priest and a librarian, and come barreling down with 40-50 extremely fast power armored bodies at 1500.

Space wolves can, in a way. Thunderwolf cavalry are a pain to convert and probably cost intensive (unless you've got, say, some of the old dnd minatures laying around. Or a Fenris Wolf from heroclix), but then there's fenrisian wolves.

15 fenrisian wolves clock in at 120 points and adding saga of the wolfkin to one of your many HQs is just 1/12th of that. So for 250 points you end up with 30 I5 marine statted beasts (who are excedingly vulnerable to shooting. use cover! Saga of the hunter on a wolf priest! buy a squad of 5 to run in front! Something!) bonus points: Army that Canis works in. Fill out your points with long fangs (still cheap!), some grey hunters (underpriced!), wolf-mounted ironpriest (cheaper cyberwoofs for the win), maybe some wolf scouts to mess with your opponent's deployment. Little toy wolves are also cheap as dirt and there's so many possibilities you could literally have 30-45 wolves and not one be the same sculpt. You'll also need a three wolf moon t-shirt.

[Zorg]

The Lord Inquisitor has its 2 minute trailer up (http://youtu.be/N7glPda2Lcc).

Don't know what The Lord Inquisitor is? Click the link. Even if you do know click the link.

[Ninjaman]

It's not as hard as it looks; Just borrow an existing one (ask first!) and trace the base onto a cereal box. Should work for simple testing. Granted, this works better with non-skimmers, but it should still work. Just establish policy on cover saves beforehand.

I have never heard of that one before, my biggest proxy is a coconut for my pathetic spore.


Tyranids have a mix of Giant Monstrous creatures and hordes of little 'gaunts... but they're also considered to be one of the weakest of the 5th edition codexes. And building a Tervigon is tricky for a newbie (since it requires you to convert a Carnifex, which I don't recommend until you have a good hand at modeling).

Guard won't work for the type of horde you're suggesting (and foot guard is crazy expensive). Orks might be a bit better, but not much. Really, if you want to do a horde with Elite units, Black Templars are probably the way to go. Besides, Space Marines really aren't all that homogeneus. Aside from the Six default variations (Chaos marines (who have a lot of variation within themselves), Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Grey Knights, and Dark Angels), Codex Marines can look very different if you deside to go with a chapter that isn't the Ultramarines (be it Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, or my personal favorite, the Salamanders. Not to mention there are hundreds of other lesser known chapters, like Space Sharks, Celestial Lions... And, if all else fails, you can always make up your own chapter*).

*Just don't name them the Emperor's Pointy Sticks. That one has been taken.

I think he said that he didn't like space marines.
Orks are propperbly the best. Since tyranids are out-ruled for the very reasons you said*.

*As for the tervigons, i am actually converting 2 myself (and a tyrranofex). I might upload them to the models thread when i finnish them*.

*Assembling, will take a LONG time before i finnish painting.

[Etcetera]

The Lord Inquisitor has its 2 minute trailer up (http://youtu.be/N7glPda2Lcc).

Don't know what The Lord Inquisitor is? Click the link. Even if you do know click the link.

I reiterate my past statement that the writing is very poor, and the voice acting is not much better.

[Zorg]

That's why you watch it with the sound off!

But given it's pretty much a one man effort, I'm impressed.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Lord Inquisitor has its 2 minute trailer up (http://youtu.be/N7glPda2Lcc).

Don't know what The Lord Inquisitor is? Click the link. Even if you do know click the link.
C&D from GW in 3... 2... 1...

[Etcetera]

C&D from GW in 3... 2... 1...


Used Under License

I'll be the first to proclaim my lack of legal knowledge, but doesn't that mean the author has permission, of a sort?

[Wraith]

I'm sure all the others would... not appreciate, if the Cheesegear New Codex Review™ was supplanted by the inane ramblings of some noob. :smallwink:

For what it's worth, I am genuinely looking forward to the Newb Review. My own experience with most armies barely even reaches the rank of 'Newb', so I be just as interested to know whether or not my opinions are the same as a fellow amateur, as I would to hear the 'This Is What You Should Do' version from the Tournament Veteran. :smallsmile:


Ninjaman]I think he said that he didn't like space marines.
Orks are propperbly the best. Since tyranids are out-ruled for the very reasons you said*.

While I concur that Black Templars would probably be the most fun set of rules available for what he has in mind, there's nowhere that says he has to use Space Marine models.

Use their rules and any other race whose models you like, if that's what you want. Only the most anal and pedantic of rules-lawyering opponents would complain, and I speak from experience when I say that those sort of people aren't worth playing anyway. :smalltongue:

[Ninjaman]

While I concur that Black Templars would probably be the most fun set of rules available for what he has in mind, there's nowhere that says he has to use Space Marine models.

Use their rules and any other race whose models you like, if that's what you want. Only the most anal and pedantic of rules-lawyering opponents would complain, and I speak from experience when I say that those sort of people aren't worth playing anyway. :smalltongue:

That is true. But some of it might require some conversions, hard for a starter.

[filvento]

Necrons New Tactica = 5 Spiders 5 scarabs x2. Spam scarabs. WIN.

[The_Final_Stand]

Observe as enemy takes a blast/template weapon. Watch scarabs die horribly and fail to do any meaningful damage anyway. See Spyders die, partly due to being unable to hit anything, partly due to scarab spam whittling down wounds.

[lord_khaine]

Observe as enemy takes a blast/template weapon. Watch scarabs die horribly and fail to do any meaningful damage anyway. See Spyders die, partly due to being unable to hit anything, partly due to scarab spam whittling down wounds.

You forgot to add " Then remember that it takes S6+ templates/blast to do anything seriously towards a scarab swarm, and rejoice because its being wastet on something with a 3+ cover save"

[Etcetera]

Necrons New Tactica = 5 Spiders 5 scarabs x2. Spam scarabs. WIN.

*cough* Scatter Lasers *cough*

[Squark]

You forgot to add " Then remember that it takes S6+ templates/blast to do anything seriously towards a scarab swarm, and rejoice because its being wastet on something with a 3+ cover save"

Scarabs are beasts now, and thus can no longer turbo boost (and, by extension, can no longer easily get a 2+ invul on demand. That's one thing I'm going to miss from the old codex. So many units could turbo boost)

[Trixie]

You forgot to add " Then remember that it takes S6+ templates/blast to do anything seriously towards a scarab swarm, and rejoice because its being wastet on something with a 3+ cover save"

And you forgot to add "IG 1500 points list has, like, 12-15 of these" :smalltongue:

...

Anyway, this is pretty random Ordo Malleus list I took today against some Eldar:

HQ:

Coteaz [100]

OM Inquisitor [25]

Elite:

Vindicare [145]

Troops:

6x Psyker, 2x Jokaero [170]
-Rhino

6x Psyker, 2x Jokaero [170]
-Rhino

7x DCA, 2x Crusader [175]
-Rhino

3x HB Servitor, 2x Jokaero [155]
-Chimera

3x HB Servitor, 2x Jokaero [155]
-Chimera

Heavy Support:

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon, Psyammo

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon, Psyammo

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon, Psyammo

Did rather well, even, but nevertheless, I'd like to ask for comments/ideas of improving it?

My main beef is, IG could probably do it better, but still, thanks to Coteaz it can be quite versatile, depending in which unit he ends up.

[lord_khaine]

*cough* Scatter Lasers *cough*

Sounds like you got a calculation caught in the throat?
A singel scatter laser will kill less than 1 swarm per turn as long as they are in cover.


And you forgot to add "IG 1500 points list has, like, 12-15 of these"


Nahh, i though about it, but desidet it were unnececary, since from my experience Guard players prefer autocannons or lascannons for their heavy weapon teams, not mortars.

[Cheesegear]

Did rather well, even, but nevertheless, I'd like to ask for comments/ideas of improving it?

Xenos Inquisitor with Rad and/or Psychotroke Grenades.
Techmarines with Rad and/or Psychotroke Grenades.


My main beef is, IG could probably do it better, but still, thanks to Coteaz it can be quite versatile, depending in which unit he ends up.

Then don't make a faux-Imperial Guard army? :smallconfused:

Do what Imperial Guard can't. Assault. More DCA/Crusaders. Chuck in some Stormravens.

[Trixie]

Nahh, i though about it, but desidet it were unnececary, since from my experience Guard players prefer autocannons or lascannons for their heavy weapon teams, not mortars.

Mortars? :smallconfused:

I meant S8+ ordnance, I have a little 1500 pts IG list that can throw 16 large blasts on good turn, then add 6 TL lascannon and 6 multilasers into the fray, all of which would ID a scarab swarm :smalltongue:

And no, it's not scarab-counter list, it's all-comers I have written a few hours ago. I'd post it, but it needs to stay secret until a game later today, sorry.


Xenos Inquisitor with Rad and/or Psychotroke Grenades.
Techmarines with Rad and/or Psychotroke Grenades.

I had them at one point, along with 11 DCA in Chimera, but decided more Jokaero would be of more use, plus, to be honest, I was trying to not overoptimize it. It was meant for half-casual play.

Still, Coteaz even with that small DCA unit in there ate 10 Striking Scorpions without losses, so dedicated assault Inquisitor might have been too overkill against everything that is not 10 Hammernators.


Then don't make a faux-Imperial Guard army? :smallconfused:

Do what Imperial Guard can't. Assault. More DCA/Crusaders. Chuck in some Stormravens.

I'd say IG flyers are even better than Stormravens and would make the list more IG-lite :smalltongue:

Also, yes, I guess more DCA would be the way to go, but I wanted to have solid anti-tank, too, plus, there's a factor of more than say, 12 DCA in a list is not fun for everyone who doesn't play full assault army. I often face protests even with 7-8 ^^"

Well, thanks for help, though, balancing lists to not become 'that one guy' is kind of hard at times, I still remember that MSU mech list being not very fun for both me and my opponent.

[Tome]

And you forgot to add "IG 1500 points list has, like, 12-15 of these" :smalltongue:

...

Anyway, this is pretty random Ordo Malleus list I took today against some Eldar:

HQ:

Coteaz [100]

OM Inquisitor [25]

Elite:

Vindicare [145]

Troops:

6x Psyker, 2x Jokaero [170]
-Rhino

6x Psyker, 2x Jokaero [170]
-Rhino

7x DCA, 2x Crusader [175]
-Rhino

3x HB Servitor, 2x Jokaero [155]
-Chimera

3x HB Servitor, 2x Jokaero [155]
-Chimera

Heavy Support:

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon, Psyammo

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon, Psyammo

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon, Psyammo

Did rather well, even, but nevertheless, I'd like to ask for comments/ideas of improving it?

My main beef is, IG could probably do it better, but still, thanks to Coteaz it can be quite versatile, depending in which unit he ends up.

The Psyker squads are a bit off. You've got three guys you want shooting, but only two firing points in a Rhino. I'd either upgrade to Chimeras or loose a Jokaero.

DCAs really want either a Xenos Inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades (possibly Psychotroke as well) or a Stormraven to ride around in, preferably both.

[Trixie]

The Psyker squads are a bit off. You've got three guys you want shooting, but only two firing points in a Rhino. I'd either upgrade to Chimeras or loose a Jokaero.

Well, I decided on this for 2 reasons: A) I expected at least one squad to explode, especially since I played against Eldar, B) I wanted the unit to perform both AT and anti-heavy infantry functions. With only 1 jokaero, AT is too unreliable. That, and GK Rhino is 15 pts heaper, can't be reliably stunlocked like Chimera (Fortitude) and 2 jokaero give far better returns on Customization table.


DCAs really want either a Xenos Inquisitor with Hammerhand and Rad Grenades (possibly Psychotroke as well) or a Stormraven to ride around in, preferably both.

See above. Yeah, I guess losing both servitor units and using the points to have 2 maximized DCA units would be more optimized, but, to be honest, 4 heavy bolters, multilaser and 2 multi-melta or heavy flamers my setup offers is nothing to sneeze at, both reliably removed 1 eldar infantry unit per turn from 36" (granted, these were out of cover, or in 5+ one, but...).

EDIT: Though, please don't think I'm not grateful for your replies, I might not use all of them but I'll certainly make a note and will apply all suggestions should I ever really need to win :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

It was meant for half-casual play.

Well that's totally different. You list is fine as-is. Whatever you want is exactly what you need.


I'd say IG flyers are even better than Stormravens and would make the list more IG-lite :smalltongue:

Well, I wouldn't say that at all. Meltavets in a Valkyrie is not the same as DCAs/Crusaders in Stormravens.

[userpay]

If anyone is interested methinks I'd like to try for a 500 point match tomorrow morning on Vassal. Most likely I'll be up by 8-8:30 GMT-8 and will be available till about 1:30, assuming I don't have chores thrown at me. Trying out an army I've never played before while trying to relearn the game so starting off small should work perfectly to get me back into the groove.

[Talkkno]

What's the best way to equip Blood Angels honor Guards? Seems like strapping them a ton of meltaguns is the most popular choice...

[Cheesegear]

What's the best way to equip Blood Angels honor Guards? Seems like strapping them a ton of meltaguns is the most popular choice...

Meltaguns, yes. Is always a good choice. But, really only in a Drop Pod because there's four of them. Because of the FNP (but you're Blood Angels, so there's a good chance you get those anyway) Plasmaguns are always nice. But, that depends on how many Lasplaserbacks you're running too. Flamers are useful. But, hopefully you're running some Razorbacks with Heavy Flamers or Baal Predators.

Depends what else you're running. Blood Angels being Blood Angels, pretty much any of the special weapons are good.

[Timberwolf]

Depends what you're played as well, of course. However, on general principles, meltaguns will probably be the best all rounders as it is a really rare horde army that doesn't have at least one big thing that you really want rid of.

[Etcetera]

Mortars? :smallconfused:

I meant S8+ ordnance, I have a little 1500 pts IG list that can throw 16 large blasts on good turn, then add 6 TL lascannon and 6 multilasers into the fray, all of which would ID a scarab swarm :smalltongue:

And no, it's not scarab-counter list, it's all-comers I have written a few hours ago. I'd post it, but it needs to stay secret until a game later today, sorry.


Should I be worried?
*adds outflanking units to army*

And, re scatter lasers, while you may not think they're that effective against scarabs, once you're using 6 of them in a 500 point game they can be rather nasty, especially since the scarabs will likely have to break from cover at some point.

[Talkkno]

I'm guessing loading them up with lightening claws would be the worst option? Would it be completely terrible though? Because that's what i would want to do with them just from a strictly visual and fluffy point of view...

[Timberwolf]

Well, if you go with cheesegear's point about the drop pod, yes. There's only 5 men in the squad and they will get shot to bits or eaten before they do anything, hence the meltaguns.

[Cheesegear]

I'm guessing loading them up with lightening claws would be the worst option? Would it be completely terrible though? Because that's what i would want to do with them just from a strictly visual and fluffy point of view...

If they were Space Wolves, or attached to Kor'Sarro, that'd be okay, because of the Counter-Attack. But, Blood Angels don't have that, so it's not that good to tool something up for Assault if it comes out of a Drop Pod.

[Trixie]

Well that's totally different. You list is fine as-is. Whatever you want is exactly what you need.

Oh, no, you misunderstand. That list was for not that serious play. I, however, asked how to make it better in the event of highly competitive play, to become better at list building, which I mentioned in one of the replies. That, and knowing what works best also helps to not accidentally make list too good in casual game?


Well, I wouldn't say that at all. Meltavets in a Valkyrie is not the same as DCAs/Crusaders in Stormravens.

No, it's not, but to be fair, both units function similarly, and had GK had access to Inquisitorial Valkyries/Vendettas no one would have taken Stormravens :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

No, it's not, but to be fair, both units function similarly, and had GK had access to Inquisitorial Valkyries/Vendettas no one would have taken Stormravens :smalltongue:

You underestimate how amazing Assault Vehicle is on a Fast Skimmer. Dark Eldar get that too, but for them it's called 'Open-Topped' and it has it's drawbacks.

[lord_khaine]

You underestimate how amazing Assault Vehicle is on a Fast Skimmer. Dark Eldar get that too, but for them it's called 'Open-Topped' and it has it's drawbacks.

Yeah, its the main reason for why i hate Ward, the fluff changes can be discussed and forgiven, but the stormraven really makes me want to drag him out in a dark alley, and force him to eat a Blood Angel codex.

[Etcetera]

Yeah, its the main reason for why i hate Ward, the fluff changes can be discussed and forgiven, but the stormraven really makes me want to drag him out in a dark alley, and force him to eat a Blood Angel codex.

If anything, Eldar deserve this. Sure I'm biased, but Eldar transports are, for the most part, not very good. BA/GK didn't need a new transport that removes one of their weaknesses and is a horrible model, to boot.

[Ricky S]

What's the best way to equip Blood Angels honor Guards? Seems like strapping them a ton of meltaguns is the most popular choice...

I was orignally going to run mine with meltaguns as well but I only had 2 meltas. So I put 4 flamers in the unit instead and by golly they work wonders. They obliterate everything they touch because with four flamers you can put out a lot of hits. I literally put 60 wounds on a unit of nids the other day. It was a shame there were only 20 of them. I have even killed 3 nobs (with full wounds) outright in one shooting phase despite musical wounds.

It's probably not the most competitive set up by it certainly is fun roasting stuff.

[Timberwolf]

BA/GK didn't need a new transport that removes one of their weaknesses and is a horrible model, to boot.

I'm rather proud of mine, but there we go. Admittedly, I would have preferred one that looked a bit more Valkyrie like, mainly in the nose section. The Storm Pigeon does have a really ugly nose.

[userpay]

Wow... I think this is the most people I've ever seen on Vassal at once.

[Etcetera]

Wow... I think this is the most people I've ever seen on Vassal at once.

TGaPT is me and Trixie! Wave at us!

[userpay]

TGaPT is me and Trixie! Wave at us!

I would but the room seems to be locked. Would either of you happen to be interested in a quickie 500 (maybe higher if I get to working on it) after your current match?

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

If anything, Eldar deserve this. Sure I'm biased, but Eldar transports are, for the most part, not very good. BA/GK didn't need a new transport that removes one of their weaknesses and is a horrible model, to boot.

I hope you don't count Wave serpents as bad transports?

Altough I agree Eldar should have a fast transport that allows them to assult out of it.

[Etcetera]

I hope you don't count Wave serpents as bad transports?

Altough I agree Eldar should have a fast transport that allows them to assult out of it.

They're nicely survivable, but even at their cheapest they cost 100 points. Which is a lot.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'll be the first to proclaim my lack of legal knowledge, but doesn't that mean the author has permission, of a sort?
So was Damnatus. They gave permission at the outset of production and changed their minds after they were done shooting but before release.

[Silverlich]

How do Chariots work in the Daemon codex?
Does the herald become an upgrade character for whatever squad you want?
Does it become a unit with whatever the chariot is pulled by?
It says it "Loses the independent character rule".:smallconfused:

Help please?

[Winterwind]

For what it's worth, I am genuinely looking forward to the Newb Review. My own experience with most armies barely even reaches the rank of 'Newb', so I be just as interested to know whether or not my opinions are the same as a fellow amateur, as I would to hear the 'This Is What You Should Do' version from the Tournament Veteran. :smallsmile:Awww, that's nice to hear. Did a lot to motivate me to write this thing down, too. :smallsmile:

So, here we go. As I said, I've had the pleasure of playing alongside the new Necron codex in one game so far... and then had hours and hours and hours and hours of discussion about it with a friend of mine who plays Necrons and is always very, very careful to analyze all his options. So, while lacking in experience (and I don't feel nearly as qualified in Warhammer 40k as I do in Fantasy, anyway), I think I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about the new Necrons, so I figured I'd write down a summary of my thoughts to all the various unit choices, their qualities and uses. It's only the regular units, not the Special Characters (didn't feel like going into those as well).

HQs
Overlord - there's no way around this, these are very expensive for what they do. They can be built into very decent close combat warriors - with 2+/3++ saves and 3 S7 attacks at I2, and enough Toughness to not be insta-killed by powerfists, which is great, but we are looking at about 200 points, then. Their ability to make a unit they join Relentless is awesome though - while there are only a few units that can benefit from this, the ones that do do so greatly. Stick him into a unit of 20 Warriors, and you can move around and still shoot at 24" - greatly extending the threat potential of this unit, or allowing them to slowly move away from enemy close combat troops closing in while still shooting at them from outside the critical 12" range that might allow the enemy to assault. Alternately, it greatly improves the choice of Gauss Blasters on Immortals (which would be the vastly superior weapon than Tesla Carbines if not for not being Assault - Relentless gets around this problem). Most critically though, they allow for Royal Courts. Overall, kinda expensive, but useful to the point of not being cripplingly so, and unlocking Courts makes them mandatory.(6/10, for how much Overlords contribute to the army on their own merit. 10/10 if considering they are necessary to unlock Courts.)[/B]

Destroyer Lord - A dedicated close combat HQ choice... that cannot take Phase Shifters. They are fast, so they may be able to choose their targets to some degree (and their high Toughness may make them impervious to many targets)... but even so, a close combat Independent Character, even with T6, rather sucks if it doesn't have an Invulnerable save, degrading them mostly to trying to hunt vehicles and long range fire support units - and they aren't quite fast enough to do that reliably without being intercepted. And they don't unlock a Royal Court, either. Bad choice. (3/10)

Royal Court - Now we're talking. Lords and Crypteks are not Independent Characters, so if attached to units, they function as sergeants... really strong and well equipped sergeants. Lords are the regular close combat choice, and a pretty terrifying at that - with one of those, Necron units are no longer going to be losing close combat to every Tactical squad that comes around, nor do they have to fear every walker that manages to close in. But Crypteks are the real bee's knees.

Harbingers of Destruction stand out to me as one of the most powerful things that currently exist in all of WH40k. Solar Pulse forces the entire enemy army to fight under night rules - I don't have to tell you how devastating that can be under normal conditions, but under normal conditions you at least have the consolation that these rules hit your opponent, too. Not here. Enemy army only. And if you have two Royal Courts, you can have two of those. I said I wasn't going to comment on special characters, but I have to point out that, with Imotekh, you can guarantee that the enemy will have night fighting rules in at least three of his turns! That's potentially more than half the game!
In addition to that, their weapon is awesome. S8 AP2, at 36", for only 35 points per model? That makes entire Royal Courts composed only of Harbingers of Destruction (plus some cheap lords as meatshields, maybe with a single Phase Shifter and one Harbinger of Eternity to deal with the harshest hits) a really scary option.
Harbingers of Despair are, I think, the second best Cryptek-choice. The mobility they add opens up innumerable strategic options, and I'd argue there are units in this codex that pretty much require a Harbinger of Despair to work to their full potential (Lychguard, for instance). Their flamer is useful in an army otherwise lacking in flamers, and is going to wound most targets on 4+ with no armour save allowed - that's pretty awesome.
Harbingers of Change are a nice defensive option. A Necron unit of Warriors or Immortals, standing in difficult terrain, can become nigh impossible to assault with a Harbinger of Change attached. And their weapons are good for slowing enemies down even further.
Harbingers of Eternity are less generally useful, but if you have something that really requires you to roll well - Tachyon Arrows, Phase Shifters, Phylacteries or Orikan's The Stars Are Right roll - they are a very nice option still.
Harbingers of the Storm are the least useful option, I think - things that come in so little numbers that the lightnings might thin their numbers down significantly are going to be too well armoured, and things sufficiently unarmoured to die to the lightnings will be too numerous. But then, nobody forces you to take these, right?
So, every single of the Royal Court choices is pure awesome, except for Harbingers of the Storm, maybe. More frequently as upgrades to units - Royal Courts on their own seem a bit too expensive and too fragile for me, though a Harbinger of Destruction court with meatshields might work quite well nonetheless. (10/10. Easily.)


ELITES
I see one problem with the Necron Elite section - it is positively teeming with units which synergize best with themselves. It's particularly obvious with Deathmarks - if you take one squad, best take three squads! - but just about every Elite entry is like that. Which poses a problem if one wants several different types of those...

Lychguard - I don't think equipping these with Warscythes would make much sense, pretty much ever. Oh, sure, it makes them better at hunting vehicles... but Necrons have superior choices for that, and against infantry, S5 is going to be enough - the 4+ Invulnerable save (plus dispersion) is going to be much more important for a dedicated close combat unit.
Lychguard are as expensive as Terminators. With T5, 3+/4++ saves and Reanimation Protocols, they are about as durable as them, too, and are armed with S5 A2 powerweapons at I2 (which is enough to have them attack before most Terminator variants). Now, Terminators aren't that great, and Lychguard suffer from a lack of mobility - Nightscythes are risky as heck, and no other transport options are available - except for porting them via Monolith or Harbinger of Despair. Even so, unlike Terminators, they will inevitably suffer at least one round of enemy fire (unless one goes the Nightscythe route and the Nightscythe is not shot down, but every opponent is going to do their best to shoot it down, so that's an unlikely option to say the least). It might work better with three Lychguard units in three Nightscythes, but then we are talking about something that completely defines your army (and also pretty much requires Monoliths/Harbingers of Despair so that the units whose Nightscythes are shot down don't become utterly useless). The biggest problem they have, though, is that in Canoptek Wraiths, Necrons have a unit that fulfills an overall similar role, much, much better. Overall, I think they are not that strong a choice, but not utterly unviable, either. (5/10)

Deathmarks - As said above, hardly ever seen a unit with this much self-synergy. They become better, the more units of them you have. They aren't that expensive, and the torrent of sniper-fire they can unleash is quite terrifying - their range though is atrocious. Their special rule of coming in when enemy reinforcements arrive will be useful only under very specific circumstances, all the more since it gives the enemy an immediate opportuntiy to shoot at them. Ultimately though, the main problem is that they aren't all that different to Immortals, who are cheaper and a Troop choice - with S5, Immortals will often have a better chance to wound, they don't have Rending, but either AP4 and Gauss effect or superior range, Assault and Tesla functionality, and they are equal in terms of durability. Which turns Deathmarks into very much of a niche unit - the way I see it, they are pretty much only there to deal with Monstrous Creatures and Terminators in armies that don't use many Immortals and have few to none Wraiths and Tesla weapons. Which is so very specific, I can't help but think it won't come up very often. They are not a bad unit per se, but quite superfluous and often overshadowed by a Troop choice. (5/10)

Praetorians - Schizophrenic. With default equipment, they have powerweapons with just a single attack, which makes them above average in close combat, but not good enough to really use them as close combat troops, and have a weapon that is strong, but short ranged and with little volume of fire, so again not good enough to use them as dedicated shooting units. With their alternate equipment, they at least have two attacks and better range with their shooting (losing the great AP that was the appeal of their initial equipment)... but they lose power weapons then, and are close combat troops with no Invulnerable save. Either equipment strikes me as being so jack-of-all-trades that they aren't really good at anything - which means they aren't good at all. For close combat, Wraiths or Lychguard are just better. For shooting, there's Tomb Blades or vehicles. (3.5/10)

C'Tan Fragment - Oh, sure, there is a lot that can deal with Monstrous Creatures... but with T7, W4 and a 4+ Invulnerable save, these ones will still be really, really difficult to get rid of for quite a few lists. All the more, since they can quite easily seek cover without being in any way impeded in their advance. And even more so if there's multiple of them. Once in close combat, they can tear most things into shreds, and some of their abilities are crazy powerful - making all terrain dangerous for all enemy models (and only those), everywhere, for a mere 35 points?! That's insanely powerful, it completely screws over armies like Tyranids or just about anything that relies on cover for its advance, and shapes the movement of the opponent. At its price, it seems perfectly strong, viable and useful to me - not an absolute must-have (though that power with the dangerous terrain makes it dang close to one), but a solid and strong choice anyhow. (7.5/10)

Triarch Stalker - It's somewhat fragile (not exceedingly so though, thanks to its shields), and its armament is pathetic, but making other weapons twin-linked is obviously useful. Even so, considering Necron BS is as high as 4, and just how expensive and underarmed it ultimately is, I am somewhat doubtful it will really be worth it. While its default weapon is neat in that in gives both a melta and a flamer (both things that aren't easy to come by for Necrons), it is very short ranged, making it difficult to apply the twin-link effect that one is ultimately buying this for, which is why I think one should probably upgrade to the Heavy Gauss instead. It's a nice addition to the army's anti-vehicle capacities, and the special effect it adds is very useful, don't get me wrong, but at these costs, I'm skeptical. (5/10)

Flayed Ones - I hear that those are, like, really bad, all over the Internet. I'm not seeing it. I mean, compare these to Khorne Berserkers. They have one WS less, lack S5 when charging, have no champion, will generally strike last and have only 4+ armour. Sounds bad? But on the other hand, consider - they have the same number of attacks, you can get 3 of them per 2 Khorne Berserkers with points to spare, and they can Infiltrate, sparing you the whole issue of "how do we get these into position?"! You get basically one WS4 S4 attack per 4 points (per 3 points when charging) - I may be wrong, but I think this is actually the record for decent quality attacks in the entire game - all other units either don't bring nearly as many attacks per point, or do so only with much inferior WS and S. So, I think they are at the very least decent close combat troops. The real issue is that with C'tan, Lychguard and (especially) Wraiths, Necrons have choices for close combat that can do better. Still, all of these suffer from varying degrees of issues with getting into position properly, which Flayed ones have less trouble with, and they can be used in massive hordes. As with the other Elite choices, I think when there are multiple units of them, it will quickly exhaust the opponent's capacities of dealing with them, especially since they have to be dealt with quickly thanks to Infiltration.(6.5/10)


Troops
To summarize it briefly right away, my opinion on Warriors vs. Immortals basically amounts to:
Warriors+Phaeron > Gauss-Immortals+Phaeron > Tesla-Immortals > Gauss-Immortals > Warriors,
but I also think the difference is pretty marginal here - a pure Warrior army is perfectly viable and by no means gimping oneself.

Warriors - Cheaper than Tactical Marines, about equally durable (thanks to Reanimation Protocols), armed with better weapons (no special weapons - their lesser price and bigger maximum squad size allows one to bring many things, vehicles included, down by mere volume of fire though), and can come with scary "sergeants" thanks to Royal Courts, I'd say those are a very solid and good choice. When used in large 20-robot units (then ideally accompanied by the Phaeron), they can actually hold their own in close combat against quite many attackers (while still not being too expensive), and a Phaeron greatly extends their effective range and allows them to either shoot and charge, or shoot while moving away, keeping out of combat.
Overall, I think Immortals are better, but the large maximum unit size is a distinct advantage of Warriors (which also means one should use this, to take advantage of large Warrior units) - 20 Warriors make much more efficient use of a Phaeron than 10 Immortals do. (7/10)

Immortals - better armoured and armed than Warriors for only 4 points. Even though 4 points is actually kinda a lot here, as it almost amounts to 1/3 of a Warrior, I still think they are overall more worth it - durability and the much stronger weapon speak for themselves.
Gauss Blasters score 2/3 of a hit at more than 12" range and 4/3 within 12", while Tesla Carbines score 1 hit on average at all ranges, which when combined with the superior AP of Gauss Blasters means you would usually prefer the Blasters... except those don't allow you to shoot the enemy while moving away from him, and while Warriors don't want to end up in close combat, at least they have their large squad size to give them a chance there - Immortals don't have even that, so it's even more imperative for them. Which means I'd probably go with the Tesla Carbines overall - if accompanied by a Phaeron though, definitely the Blasters. Even if I think a Phaeron is even better used in a Warrior unit. (7.5/10)


Fast Attack
Oddly enough, quite possibly the best section in the codex.

Canoptek Wraiths - I think I've made it clear by now - I think those are one of the best units in the codex. More to the point: Those are better than Hammernators. And every single Space Marine player of every single Space Marine variation that I've ever played against has used Hammernators.
Let's compare them side by side. They cost essentially the same (Wraiths slightly less initially, but you will want to take some Whip Coils, which about averages out to the same cost overall), Hammernators have S8, which is better against Monstrous Creatures and T4- multi-wound models, but with S6, Wraiths are still equally good against everything else (and better against vehicles, thanks to Rending), while having more attacks. The Termies have power weapons, but the Wraiths still have more attacks, plus Rending, which offsets this at least some; Termies have 2+ armour on top of the 3+ Invulnerable, but Wraiths have 2 Wounds against anything that doesn't kill them outright, as well as musical wounds. Wraiths also, essentially, always get to attack first thanks to whip coils. The most crucial part though, Wraiths are much faster and don't require a costly vehicle or a risky deep-strike to bring them into battle. They are magnificent close combat troops, and I think every Necron army should have some. (9/10)

Canoptek Scarabs - Okay, so I'm not nearly as much a fan of the new Scarabs as everyone else on the 'Net seems to be. Yes, they are death incarnate to vehicles - they are also not all that cheap and quite fragile though, kinda useless against everything but vehicles, and most crucially, being only Beasts now, they are slow. Don't get me wrong - anything that is this deadly to vehicles is a worthy inclusion to an army, I just don't think they are so incredibly great as everyone else seems to think. Still, some of them are undeniably nice to have. (7/10)

Tomb Blades - That's some great firepower right there, with top mobility, decent durability and effective range, for a very low price. Pretty much all of the options, however, are, in my humble opinion. Utterly. Retarded. Why would you pay to improve your save from 4+ to 3+, when it increases the cost of the unit by fif-freaking-ty percent?! The only option that makes sense, I think, is exchanging the Carbines for Blasters, which sort of depends on how close you want to move them to the enemy, but will likely quite often be the better choice. (8/10)

Destroyers - For the firepower increase in comparison to Tomb Blades, I just don't see doubling the price being worth it, especially when it comes at the cost of mobility. Heavy Destroyers, on the other hand, kinda add long range anti-vehicle firepower to an army otherwise lacking in that - but that's one hell of a lot of points on a really fragile chassis. I'd say, probably not utterly unviable, but risky as hell to use. (5/10)


Heavy Support
Necron vehicles are, for the most part, glass cannons - expensive, hilariously well armed, and kinda fragile. As you will see below, I'm currently of the opinion that this probably isn't going to work - they seem too fragile and too expensive to make the risk worth it, for the most part - but I may be overestimating their fragility.

Doomsday Ark - Okay, so of course, you won't move this. So we're talking about a stationary tank with a crazy powerful gun with armour 13 and Living Metal. Which, at this cost, and with the secondary armament being short-ranged (and not all that strong to begin with) is still awfully fragile. Combine this with the main gun not being twin-linked or anything, and I think this is a good investment for anyone who really, really, really likes to gamble. Everyone else, I think the risk of this thing doing nothing but eating close to 200 points is just too high. (5/10)

Annihilation Barge - Relatively cheap, very well armed (if a bit specialized against infantry hordes) and decently durable for its price, this one's great. I think it only truly makes sense if you are also using transport vehicles - otherwise enemy anti-tank weapons will take these down too quickly - but otherwise, they look like a pretty good investment. (7.5/10)

Monolith - The firepower of Monoliths never was overwhelming, now it's pretty much even worse - Flux Arcs are mounted in such a way that it's impossible for any one target to be fired at by more than one of them, and the main gun lost its AP1 in the middle of the template. It's also become much more fragile (though correspondingly cheaper). The range of the gate-weapon is painfully short, too, which combined with its slow speed makes it more of a gimmick than a real threat. On the plus side, the mobility it offers now is unparalleled, being able to pull units from across the whole board (rather than 12" like previously), and even allowing you to move in stuff from reserves without having to roll for reserve. In an army designed to take advantage of that, that opens up immeasurable strategic potential and makes a lot of other units (like Lychguard) much better than they would be otherwise. Overall, not a must-have, but very nice and useful in an army that can take advantage of it. (7/10)

Death Scythe - Honestly, I just don't see how a unit that is so short-ranged and so fragile is supposed to work out. Sure it's fast, but when it moves more than 12" it can't shoot, so that doesn't give it that much of an edge. If it's true that 6th edition, once it comes out, is going to give a better save to really fast vehicles, this thing will become much better, but as is, I think the likelihood of it being shot down immediately renders it a rather poor choice. (4/10)

Tomb Spiders - T6 W3, 3+ save, at so few points? That's a bargain. They are sort of a toolbox, offering various different advantages (repair, creating Scarabs, anti-psi - unfortunately, only anti-psi for things that target your units directly, which aren't usually the most dangerous psychic powers, sadly), and decent fighters if need be as well. I'd say if you have Scarabs and free Heavy Support slots, there is very little reason not to take some of these. (7.5/10)


Transports

Catacomb Command Barge - I honestly don't get the point. It's a marginal amount of damage potentially done to enemy troops (Trazyn would have been nice, but the way his weapon's rules are formulated, they aren't going to work, because the units hit with the Command Barge are not hit in close combat), it's a very easy way to lose your costly HQ (which would be better boosting your troops anyway), and... yeah, I don't get the point. Maybe as vehicle hunter? But even there, Necrons have other options, and it seems risky as hell. Fun fact: You can mount a Destroyer Lord into this, too, if you wish - it only specifies "character model" in its transport capacities, not the type of that model - but that's more of a pointless gimmick, too, I think. Overall, pass. (2/10)

Ghost Ark - For transporting Necron Warriors to mission objectives and providing additional protection and firepower to them. And I think it does so pretty nicely. Since it's open, it's a very nice fire platform. The repair is kinda wasted, as the unit will spend most of its time inside anyway, but even without it, it's still a pretty well protected transport that allows everyone inside to keep firing, and has a nice firepower in its own right. Also nice for Royal Councils, which can assault out of it even after movement, if they wish. (7/10)

Night Scythe - Another one of those Necron gambler units. It's one of the few ways to bring certain units into position efficiently, and it has scary firepower itself, but it's incredibly fragile, and it's special rules for what happens with the troops inside if it gets shot down make it infinitely worse a transport than it would be otherwise. Mind, if you spam a ton of other high-priority vehicles - Doomsday Barges and Death Scythes mostly - you may overload the enemy's capabilities of shooting vehicles down, allowing you to unleash some hell inmidst his armies - Night Scythes with Lychguard would be one hell of a priority target - but it is quite risky either way.
I think if one uses Night Scythes, one is also pretty much obliged to use a Monolith to avoid oneself being too screwed over if they get shot down. (5/10)

Phew. So, yeah, that would have been my humble analysis of the Necron Codex. :smallredface:


How do Chariots work in the Daemon codex?
Does the herald become an upgrade character for whatever squad you want?
Does it become a unit with whatever the chariot is pulled by?
It says it "Loses the independent character rule".:smallconfused:

Help please?"Loses the independent character rule" pretty much tells you all. Not being an Independent Character, the Herald cannot join units anymore, as that's the rule that allows character models to do so. It has to move around on its own.

[lord_khaine]

thanks a lot Winter, its really interesting to hear your oppinion on the new codex, though there is a lot i would like to discuss about it :smalltongue:

Firstly Regarding the royal court, did you considder just taking the lords and cryptecs as they are, and then using the staffs of light to blow stuff up?
Its a S5 Ap 3 Assult 3 weapon, 10 of those are going to blow most infantery without a 2+ save to kingdom come.

As for the Destroyer lord, i do think he would be a good choice as long as you have some wraiths, for he synergise really well with them, he brings the added kick in CC, while they provide him with a screen that can keep up with him.

[Silverlich]

Total: 986 points

HQ:533 points

Fateweaver: 333 points

Herald Of Tzeentch: 100 points
-Master of Sorcery
-Chariot of Tzeentch
-Breath of Chaos

The Masque: 100 points

Fast Attack: 48 points

Screamers x3: 48 points

Troops: 195 points

Pink Horrors x5: 100 points
-The Changeling
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Pink Horrors x5: 95 points
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Elites: 210 points

Flamers x3: 105 points

Flamers x3: 105 points



What do you guys think of this army list?

[Squark]

thanks a lot Winter, its really interesting to hear your oppinion on the new codex, though there is a lot i would like to discuss about it :smalltongue:

Firstly Regarding the royal court, did you considder just taking the lords and cryptecs as they are, and then using the staffs of light to blow stuff up?
Its a S5 Ap 3 Assult 3 weapon, 10 of those are going to blow most infantery without a 2+ save to kingdom come.

As for the Destroyer lord, i do think he would be a good choice as long as you have some wraiths, for he synergise really well with them, he brings the added kick in CC, while they provide him with a screen that can keep up with him.

Hmm... You'd need to take at least one lord of despair (with the veil of darkness) for positioning (As anyone familliar with the old 'crons knows, the staff of light's 12 in. range is horrible, and now it is no longer a power weapon.

[Timberwolf]

Total: 986 points

HQ:533 points

Fateweaver: 333 points

Herald Of Tzeentch: 100 points
-Master of Sorcery
-Chariot of Tzeentch
-Breath of Chaos

The Masque: 100 points

Fast Attack: 48 points

Screamers x3: 48 points

Troops: 195 points

Pink Horrors x5: 100 points
-The Changeling
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Pink Horrors x5: 95 points
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Elites: 210 points

Flamers x3: 105 points

Flamers x3: 105 points



What do you guys think of this army list?

Wellllll...

I'm no expert on Daemons, but I can see it folding very badly if someone can get into you, which I, as a not totally inexperienced player think I could do fairly easily. Over half your points are spent on HQ's, I assume that the Herald doesn't take up a F/O slot or something, because I see 3 HQ's. Fateweaver is too expensive for 1000 points, he is exactly 1/3 of it and he's fragile. Skulltaker on a Juggernaut however, is not. Plus he's ridiculously cheap. I'd say drop Fateweaver at the very least for a Greater Daemon if you really, really just want Tzentch, or even just drop him altogether and get some more units. I'd also drop the Masque and bring in Skulltaker and get some bloodletters or plaguebearers, something that can hold a charge long enough for your flamers to do something beyond die horribly to a tank. Screamers I know nothing of, I've never seen them used and that tells me something. Your pink horrors are your only troops choices, they will die horribly very early and leave you totall stuffed in 2 of the 3 game types.

I would say...

Lose Fateweaver and the Masque
Get Skulltaker and put him on a juggernaut
Get more, bigger Troops units including at least one melee oriented one
Lose the Screamers and see if you can get a Soul Grinder in somehow.

Hope that helps. Anyone who knows more about Daemons, feel free to say I'm wrong.

[Silverlich]

Total: 994 points

HQ:333 points

Fateweaver: 333 points

Fast Attack: 48 points

Screamers x3: 48 points

Troops: 263 points

Pink Horrors x7: 134 points
-The Changeling
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Pink Horrors x7: 129 points
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Elites: 350 points

Flamers x5: 175 points

Flamers x5: 175 points


Revised Army List ^

[Squark]

Semi-Battle Report: My first game with the new Necrons! (3-way Kill-Team)

Me
Wraith with Particle Caster and Preferred Enemy
Wraith with Whip Coil and Fleet
Wraith with Whip Coil
Wraith with Furious Charge
Wraith

Opponent 1
5 Triarch Praetorians
1 had stubborn, 1 had hit and run, and I don't know what the third had

Opponent 2
8 Plague Marines
Flamer, no special abilities (He didn't care to memorize which unit had which)


Turn order was Plague Marines, Praetorians, Wraiths

Turn 1: Plague Marines shuffle around a bit and one shoots at a Praetorian and misses. Praetorians move behind cover, while I advance my wraiths towards the plague marines

Turn 2: Plague Marines begin shooting stuff, including a wound on Pistol Wraith. The Praetorians manage to knock out 2 Plague Marines, as does one of the wraiths. Vanilla Wraith bites the dust on a failed fearless save.

Turn 3: Plague Marines manage to flame 3 Praetorians, but fail to kill any. All 5 Praetorians assault the flamer and easily kill him. My wraiths take some wounds and lost the Pistol Wraith, but manage to take down most of the plague marines

Turn 4: The remaining Plague Marines are all but wiped out, and my wraiths move to attack the Praetorians.

Turn 5: Praetorian player gets the charge after the last plague marine chickens out and runs off the board. The next 5 or so turns happen slowly, with my wraiths gradually killing off 3 of his praetorians before finally succumbing.


Overall, not a bad game, although I should have led with the Whip coil wraiths.

[Cheesegear]

Revised Army List

I like Daemons. Not the most competitive army around but still one of my favourites. I was so excited when they were released. I bought so much stuff... That was the day when I learned to buy the Codex and have it for a few days before I bought actual models.


Fateweaver: 333 points

In 1000 points, Fateweaver is a significant chunk. There's just not enough stuff if your list to draw fire away from him. He's going to get shot, and he's going to run out on you.

You take Fateweaver because he's amazing. But, you also need targets that your opponent will consider more important; A large unit of Khorne (pick your favourite, they're all good) or Slaanesh is usually the pick-of-choice.


Flamers x5: 175 points

Flamers x5: 175 points

You're better off with 3 units of 3/3/4.


Pink Horrors x7: 134 points
-The Changeling
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Yep.


Pink Horrors x7: 129 points
-Bolt of Tzeentch

No. Horrors are too expensive in 1000 points for not being able to do much.


Screamers x3: 48 points

Screamers don't do anything. They have grenades which only hit Dreads on sixes, and against vehicles they only have one attack.

Monstrous Creatures (any) have multiple attacks, hit Dreads at Weapon Skill and roll 2d6 for Armour Pen anyway.

All-Tzeentch is bad. Aside from Fateweaver and one unit of Horrors Changeling, Tzeentch doesn't really do anything that the rest of the 'dex couldn't do better.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm... You'd need to take at least one lord of despair (with the veil of darkness) for positioning (As anyone familliar with the old 'crons knows, the staff of light's 12 in. range is horrible, and now it is no longer a power weapon.


Well, i thought upgrades could allways be addet depending on what you could afford, though im sure 4 guys with abysal staffs would be hilarious against allmost anything without a AV value.

But for transport you do have a couple of options, like picking the open transport, and then cruise around looking (and shooting) down on whoever gets to close to you.

Alternatively you could get a monolith, and use the portal to get into position, though in that case it might be wise to pick a backup option for transport.

[Squark]

Well, i thought upgrades could allways be addet depending on what you could afford, though im sure 4 guys with abysal staffs would be hilarious against allmost anything without a AV value.

But for transport you do have a couple of options, like picking the open transport, and then cruise around looking (and shooting) down on whoever gets to close to you.

Alternatively you could get a monolith, and use the portal to get into position, though in that case it might be wise to pick a backup option for transport.

You can't stick a royal court into a ghost ark. At most, you can get 1 member of the royal court attached to the warriors in it (and you might be able to cram your overlord in too).

[hamishspence]

In 5E guys can get into a Dedicated Transport that was bought for another squad.

For the Ghost Ark, since Lords, Overlords and Crypteks can all get in one, a Royal Court can all get in one- as long as it's been vacated beforehand.

[banjo1985]

It's car-pooling, 40k style. :smallbiggrin:

As I read through the Necron codex I'm finding it hard to substantiate why only Warriors can take Ghost Arks while everyone else has to bugger around with Night Scythes. Seems a bit arbitrary to me.

[hamishspence]

Might be that they thought the ability to bring back d3 guys would be too powerful if it was given to Immortals and the like.

[Provengreil]

Immortals - better armoured and armed than Warriors for only 4 points. Even though 4 points is actually kinda a lot here, as it almost amounts to 1/3 of a Warrior, I still think they are overall more worth it - durability and the much stronger weapon speak for themselves.
Gauss Blasters score 2/3 of a hit at more than 12" range and 4/3 within 12", while Tesla Carbines score 1 hit on average at all ranges, which when combined with the superior AP of Gauss Blasters means you would usually prefer the Blasters... except those don't allow you to shoot the enemy while moving away from him, and while Warriors don't want to end up in close combat, at least they have their large squad size to give them a chance there - Immortals don't have even that, so it's even more imperative for them. Which means I'd probably go with the Tesla Carbines overall - if accompanied by a Phaeron though, definitely the Blasters. Even if I think a Phaeron is even better used in a Warrior unit. (7.5/10)


I just wanted to chime in, I've played a game as the necrons, used tesla immortals as my troops. I was consistently getting as many or more hits than I had shots with tesla weaponry. using gauss blasters may get you more hits, but to make it really good you need a phaeron, which, as you said yourself, is probably better used with 20 warriors.




Canoptek Scarabs - Okay, so I'm not nearly as much a fan of the new Scarabs as everyone else on the 'Net seems to be. Yes, they are death incarnate to vehicles - they are also not all that cheap and quite fragile though, kinda useless against everything but vehicles, and most crucially, being only Beasts now, they are slow. Don't get me wrong - anything that is this deadly to vehicles is a worthy inclusion to an army, I just don't think they are so incredibly great as everyone else seems to think. Still, some of them are undeniably nice to have. (7/10)

beast are fleet and charge 12 inches. I've seen cavalry in action, they aren't slow unless you can't charge, so they work pretty well in an area denial capacity at the early game, and vehicular removal later on.




Doomsday Ark - Okay, so of course, you won't move this. So we're talking about a stationary tank with a crazy powerful gun with armour 13 and Living Metal. Which, at this cost, and with the secondary armament being short-ranged (and not all that strong to begin with) is still awfully fragile. Combine this with the main gun not being twin-linked or anything, and I think this is a good investment for anyone who really, really, really likes to gamble. Everyone else, I think the risk of this thing doing nothing but eating close to 200 points is just too high. (5/10)

the d-day cannon is a large blast, so think of it as a high range vindicator. seems good to me.





Death Scythe - Honestly, I just don't see how a unit that is so short-ranged and so fragile is supposed to work out. Sure it's fast, but when it moves more than 12" it can't shoot, so that doesn't give it that much of an edge. If it's true that 6th edition, once it comes out, is going to give a better save to really fast vehicles, this thing will become much better, but as is, I think the likelihood of it being shot down immediately renders it a rather poor choice. (4/10)

I think this thing is supposed to deep strike. the aerial assault allows to fire all their weapons when they do, and by the time it lands and finishes firing you should have removed most/all of anything that can effectively kill it, in theory.



Catacomb Command Barge - I honestly don't get the point. It's a marginal amount of damage potentially done to enemy troops (Trazyn would have been nice, but the way his weapon's rules are formulated, they aren't going to work, because the units hit with the Command Barge are not hit in close combat), it's a very easy way to lose your costly HQ (which would be better boosting your troops anyway), and... yeah, I don't get the point. Maybe as vehicle hunter? But even there, Necrons have other options, and it seems risky as hell. Fun fact: You can mount a Destroyer Lord into this, too, if you wish - it only specifies "character model" in its transport capacities, not the type of that model - but that's more of a pointless gimmick, too, I think. Overall, pass. (2/10)


I don't know. you can swing while going 24 inches, so...cover save, living metal, symbiotic repair, very fast movement, and quantum shielding can make this quite a good vehicle hunter, IMO. 190 points with an overlord and his warscythe or voidblade(if you prefer entropic strike), and then you have access to the real goodies, ie the royal court, while giving your opponent a deceptively tough target to shoot at. also, even if the opponent has a vehicle that moved 12 inches, you still hit on a 4.

[Squark]

I'm toying with a semi-competitive list for the new Necrons I have the core of my army (A mob of warriors with a Phaeron Overlord), but after that I'm kind of unsure as to what to take, since 2 mobs (each with an overlord) comes in at 820 points, which seems a bit much when I'm shooting for a 1000 point army.

Let's see...

Necron Overlord (Phaeron, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe) 150 pts
Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse 55 pts
C'tan Shard with World shaper and... The lascanon power (265 pts)
20 Necron Warriors 260 pts.
10 Necron Immortals with Tesla Carbines 180 pts
10 Scarabs 150 pts
That should be 1000 pts, but as I'm away from codex at present, I can't be sure I got the cost of the Cryptek and C'tan upgrades right. Thoughts on it?

[Provengreil]

I'm toying with a semi-competitive list for the new Necrons I have the core of my army (A mob of warriors with a Phaeron Overlord), but after that I'm kind of unsure as to what to take, since 2 mobs (each with an overlord) comes in at 820 points, which seems a bit much when I'm shooting for a 1000 point army.

Let's see...

Necron Overlord (Phaeron, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe) 150 pts
Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse 55 pts
C'tan Shard with World shaper and... The lascanon power (265 pts)
20 Necron Warriors 260 pts.
10 Necron Immortals with Tesla Carbines 180 pts
10 Scarabs 150 pts
That should be 1000 pts, but as I'm away from codex at present, I can't be sure I got the cost of the Cryptek and C'tan upgrades right. Thoughts on it?

Assuming you mean writhing worldscape, the dangerous terrain one, your math is right.

Instead of the scarabs, I would try 3 tomb blades and an annihilation barge. those are easier to get rid of than ten scarabs, but the scarabs don't do much outside of murder vehicles, and for that you've got a ton of gauss, a warscythe, a harbinger of destruction, and your C'tan, but you don't seem to have much for anti-infantry (don't overestimate your warriors for this; against infantry, it's just bolters). all the extra tesla would solve that issue fast. alternately, you could drop the barge, add 2 tomb blades, and give them shield vanes for some hard to kill bikers.

[Trixie]

You underestimate how amazing Assault Vehicle is on a Fast Skimmer. Dark Eldar get that too, but for them it's called 'Open-Topped' and it has it's drawbacks.

Well... Yes, it is nice, but I'm not sure if GK really need it. Let's see, Vendetta is 130 pts, 75 cheaper than cheapest Stormraven. You can use the saved points and put inside, say, 10 GK with psyammo and 2 psycannons, plus Inquisitor with Psycannon, too. At this point, you don't really need to assault... And if 3 psycannons is too little, you can always take MSU Purgation squad, 5 men with 4 psycannons. Who needs to assault? :smalltongue:

On the flip side, we have Stormduck that either goes with Inquisitor/DCA, robbing you of other HQ choices, or with one of the few good GK assault units, which costs small mountain of points.

[Talkkno]

What do you guys think this list?

1.5k points Blood Angels.

Librarian (125pts)
Shield of Sanguinius, The Sanguine Sword
Jump Pack

Sanguinary Priests (x2) - 180Points
Power Weapons, Jump Packs


Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist


Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Squad (x10) - 225 Points
x2 Flamers
Sergeant: Power Fist

Scout Squad (100pts)
Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks.


Vanguard Veteran Squad (165pts)
5x
Jump Packs
1,500 points.

[Trixie]

Any upgrades on Vanguards? :smallconfused:

Also, that Scout squad seems kind of pointless. As the only target on board Turn 1, it isn't going to live for long.

[Talkkno]

Any upgrades on Vanguards? :smallconfused:

Also, that Scout squad seems kind of pointless. As the only target on board Turn 1, it isn't going to live for long.
I could simply outflank the Scouts.

Should I dump the scout squad then and just use those points to spend on upgrades for the vanguard then?

EDIT: Opps, forgot to put that vanguard have jump packs...

[Etcetera]

Should I dump the scout squad then and just use those points to spend on upgrades for the vanguard then?

Yes.
10yes.

[Squark]

Hmm... I guess I do need more anti-horde gear. But what is available to Necrons at 150 pts?

Updated List reposted for referenceNecron Overlord (Phaeron, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe) 150 pts
Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse 55 pts
C'tan Shard with Writhing Worldscape and... Transdimensional Thunderbolt 265 pts
20 Necron Warriors 260 pts
10 Necron Immortals with Tesla Carbines 180 pts
(150 pts left over)

EDIT: Tomb Blades with Particle Beamers, perhaps? The aforementioned Anihilation Barge and 3 Tomb blades? 3 Tomb Spiders?

[Timberwolf]

What do you guys think this list?

1.5k points Blood Angels.

Librarian (125pts)
Shield of Sanguinius, The Sanguine Sword
Jump Pack Yes

Sanguinary Priests (x2) - 180Points
Power Weapons, Jump Packs Ok, just don't put them with the vanguard or you lose Heroic intervention


Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist


Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Squad (x10) - 225 Points
x2 Flamers
Sergeant: Power Fist

Scout Squad (100pts)
Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks.


Vanguard Veteran Squad (165pts)
5x
Jump Packs
1,500 points.


Comments in bold. Maybe you could lose the scouts and put the points into tooling up the vanguard some ? A powerfist / thunderhammer is far too useful to not take in my opinion and gives you the option of deep striking and going for a tank. 100 points is also enough to get some stormshields in. These are really handy..

[Provengreil]

Hmm... I guess I do need more anti-horde gear. But what is available to Necrons at 150 pts?

Updated List reposted for referenceNecron Overlord (Phaeron, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe) 150 pts
Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse 55 pts
C'tan Shard with Writhing Worldscape and... Transdimensional Thunderbolt 265 pts
20 Necron Warriors 260 pts
10 Necron Immortals with Tesla Carbines 180 pts
(150 pts left over)

EDIT: Tomb Blades with Particle Beamers, perhaps? The aforementioned Anihilation Barge and 3 Tomb blades? 3 Tomb Spiders?

TL tesla carbines is plenty on the bikes, and with shield vanes that's 150 points. the annihilation barge is 90, plus 3 tomb blades at 60 is 150. canoptek spyders are probably not worth it unless you have a scarab pack to reinforce though.

I don't see particle beamers on tomb blades as worth it. it's pretty much flat out anti-horde both ways, and 5 twin linked tesla carbines are quite likely to land 6 or 7 hits per round, and unless your opponent doesn't spread out the blast markers aren't likely to do much better.

[Squark]

I'm running the math on the Annihilation Barge right now, and I don't see how it actually functions as an anti-infantry platform. The Tesla Destuctor, on average, will get 5.6 hits each time it fires. Now, these shots are strength 7, so they'll wound Marines/weaker units on a 2+, so 5 wounds on average. That's not exactly great. That's not incredibly scary. 2 S6 AP- hits from the second gun means you are, on average, getting about 6 wounds each time you fire if you don't move.

And arcing... you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting d6 tesla carbine wounds on each unit within 6 inches.... I'll be frank.

In short, against mobs, it won't do enough to phase them, and against small units (say, terminators), they'll shrug most of the wounds off on their armor saves.

EDIT: 5 Tomb blades will get, on average, 7.5 hits each turn, actually. Gauss blasters, on the other hand, will give them 8.888 hits each turn at rapid fire range, or 4.444 hits at long range. (6.666 hits on average) Giving them the gauss blasters seems to be the way to go when you factor in AP 3.

[Provengreil]

I've always been pathetic with probablity calculation, but the annihilation barge's tesla destructor has the tesla rule and is twin linked, so there's plenty of 6 probability floating around. it ALSO has a tesla cannon. not twin linked, but it's 2 more S6 tesla shots if you don't move. this thing is is stronger than a dakka predator, just with shorter range and lower AP. it'll be plenty anti-infantry.

[Squark]

I've always been pathetic with probablity calculation, but the annihilation barge's tesla destructor has the tesla rule and is twin linked, so there's plenty of 6 probability floating around. it ALSO has a tesla cannon. not twin linked, but it's 2 more S6 tesla shots if you don't move. this thing is is stronger than a dakka predator, just with shorter range and lower AP. it'll be plenty anti-infantry.

>.> I forgot the twin-linked part. Lemme re-run that. Looks like 5.55555 hits apiece. Not terribly impressive against 30 boys, 20 Genestealers, and with AP -, it isn't scaring any Terminators either.


EDIT: Actually, it's 6 shots even. My comment on enemy numbers and armor saves stands.

[Renegade Paladin]

I have a crazy idea. 1500 points

Company Command Squad - 230
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Storm Trooper Squad - 140
-Chimera dedicated transport

Storm Trooper Squad - 90
-Grenade launcher

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 420
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team, power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
--Vox-caster
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
-Heavy weapon squad
--Three autocannons

Devil Dog - 140
-Multimelta
-Smoke launchers

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons
The heavy flamer turret on one of the Chimeras is necessitated by models owned, as is the weapon choice on the storm troopers. (I'm actually proxying a flamer storm trooper as a regular hotshot lasgun and pretending the sergeant doesn't have a power sword, but when present orders finally come in they'll have meltaguns.)

Anyway, the storm troopers both take Aerial Assault and deep strike onto some scary-looking power armored infantry. The Chimera that one of them has deploys empty and follows the melta vets in to pick them up when they inevitably get de-meched.

The veteran squads do what they do; find a likely looking vehicle that's come forward and toast it, and try to stay alive long enough to gun for objectives later. Chimeras fry whatever comes out if the vets pop a transport.

The blob does what the blob does; objective squat with the heavy weapons. I've given the command squad flamers and a Chimera this time; it'll hang around for rapid reaction to infantry threats to the heavy weapons, and gun for an objective late game having hopefully evaded notice since a platoon command squad is, after all, Troops.

The Devil Dog is for the obvious thing; early elimination of heavy armor. The Russ is long ranged fire support.

This list is for tomorrow. My opponent is guaranteed to be either Eldar or Space Wolves. I've never fought Eldar before, but I'm given to understand they're not T4 or higher the way everything else in the game is, so perhaps lasguns might do something for once. Usually they sit around being otherwise useless ablative wounds. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

The army could be jetbike-heavy or Wraithguard-heavy, in which case the troop toughness would be higher than the normal T3.

Still, might not be that way.

[Provengreil]

>.> I forgot the twin-linked part. Lemme re-run that. Looks like 5.55555 hits apiece. Not terribly impressive against 30 boys, 20 Genestealers, and with AP -, it isn't scaring any Terminators either.


EDIT: Actually, it's 6 shots even. My comment on enemy numbers and armor saves stands.

Aside from a land raider crusader, what DOES scare 30 boys all by its onesie?

you don't need to kill things in one round, and forcing a pile of armor saves is enough in a single round. These 150 points are acting in a team, probably backed up by your immortals and possibly even the warriors, depending on the stiuation. as for terminators, a 2+ 3++ save set is always hard to get through, just keep lumping on the wounds.

and if they DO field genestealers, just get into terrain and blow a coupe raspberries.

[Renegade Paladin]

Aside from a land raider crusader, what DOES scare 30 boys all by its onesie?
A Hellhound with a heavy flamer? :smalltongue:

[Provengreil]

A Hellhound with a heavy flamer? :smalltongue:

hmmm. no, not really. it kills maybe 8 of them if it's lucky, then they swarm it and glance it to death before the power klaw swings. not so much on a land raider, where swarming it just brings you closer to its guns and the army behind it.