Tired of being a 'Damage Dealer' who can't damage

[Hazard_Pay]

At the suggestion of my DM, I started playing a rogue
"they could use a trap disabler"

So 4 games in I'm noticing that 'Disable Device' is ALL i'm good for in his game.

Being a halfling rogue in a world where the majority of what we have fought has been constructs, undead and elementals..... it's getting a little old.

also, the few NPC's that we run into that have vital organs seem to get neat 'powers' to get out of hot spots where my character is concerned.
A recurring NPC my character has issue with was granted an action out of his turn sequence, when he did not have a readied action, via a 'reflex save' in order to take a 5' step to avoid my grapple attempt...

Basically my combat role has devolved into being a damage sink while doling out pathetic d3 dagger damage, while our sorc, barb and ranger handle everything...

Anyone have an idea on how to broach the subject to him?
All my ideas about discussing it with him seem to start with 'gratuitous profanity and remarks about his heritage coupled with a headlock'

I might have to edit my avatar to remove his weaponry and have him holding a coffee while leaning against a wall...

[DeadManSleeping]

Tell him exactly what's on this post. Avoid excessive profanity or insults.

[JaronK]

Simply saying "I feel like I'm useless in combat, and that's just not fun" is perfectly valid. A lot of DMs (especially newer ones) have an instinct to stop you from doing whatever trick you have... in this case sneak attack... because they think it makes the game better. But it doesn't, and you're not having fun. Just let him know in a mature and respectful way, with the assumption that he wants you to have fun.

If that doesn't work, try being a Factotum instead, and using Iaijutsu Focus (which works on everything) combined with a Blurstrike weapon, Grease, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, or some other reliable way of getting enemies to be flat footed.

JaronK

[Kenneth]

Just be as curteous as you can and tell him in maybe not these exact words " so, you said they team needed a trap monkey.. but why is that all you are forcing me to be? all we fight are things that ar eimmune to my sneak attacks and when we fight something actually able to be snuck attacked (sneaked attacked..?) they have plot immunities. so basically what you should have said was , all i want form you is to help these guys disarm traps and thats about it.. nothing else you do is going to be worthhwile'

If i were you. id just either a) scrap the whole thing and become a wizard.. then do the whole battle firld control with glitterdust, stinking cloud, grease and maybe once in a hwile popping out a random summoned creature

if that does now work bust out multiclassing just into cleric from now on and proceed to buff yourself iwht radnom awesome cleric spells and deal damage that way.

[Hazard_Pay]

He's generally a decent fellow and he's run a fair game before for me and others.. I just don't know what's up with this game and this character....

@Kenneth yeah I would have multiclassed wizard at this point but I've already multiclassed Alchemist for 'Flavor' (thinking this would be a 'fair' game)

Yes i'd totally scrap him and go Batman on his ass at this point... might ask him if would be allowed to 'reroll something that's actually fun'...

[Doc Roc]

Wait, you multi-classed alchemist?

Can I get an exact build? I bet we can save this thing with a minimum of suffering on your part.

[Hazard_Pay]

5 rogue (Started @ 5)
1 Alch (Opted for Beastmorph Archetype for 'Jekyll & Hyde' Flavor) (Opted out of Vivisectionist because I noticed my sneak attacks were worthless so why add more SnkAtk dice?)

Currently for my extracts I have:
Cure Light Wounds
True Strike
Shield
Expeditious Retreat
&
Disguise Self

I have the following Feats:
Imp Unarmed
Imp Feint
Combat Expertise
Agile Maneuvers
Imp Grapple
& Strangler

I figure once I get Beast Shape I'll start taking forms with Grapple/Grab and keep working on the grapple aspect.

[Diefje]

Fight with your torch for 1d2+1 damage. Boom, optimized!

[Hazard_Pay]

Fight with your torch for 1d2+1 damage. Boom, optimized!

where's the like button on here?

[Metahuman1]

I second the Factotum Idea.

[legomaster00156]

where's the like button on here?

I keep wondering the same thing.

[Doc Roc]

So, can you redo your gear? And ditch the alchemist level for something that interacts positively with rogue?

[Hazard_Pay]

So, can you redo your gear? And ditch the alchemist level for something that interacts positively with rogue?

at that rate I might as well ask him to have the rogue scrapped entirely and play something that does standard damage...

Or perhaps the Wizard controller Idea... if that dm doesn't want me to deal damage I could always make the other party member's attacks more damaging :/

[Just_Ice]

Stop fighting fair.

Disarming traps means you can probably arm them.

[Doc Roc]

Stop fighting fair.

Disarming traps means you can probably arm them.

Actually, I was going to ask if he could go with one of the trapsmith PrCs.... Redoing his gear and ditching alchemist would let us get his sneak attack working on enemies, and trapsmith offers the rest.

[Splendor]

Replace your trap sense rogue class feature (Dungeonscape pg 13). You don't really need trap sense and penetrating strike allows you to deal "extra damage" instead of "precision damage" when flanking creatures who are immune to sneak attacks. Doesn't help with grapples but still helpful.

Or....

Replace your trap sense rogue class feature with Death's Ruin one (Complete Champion pg 51). You 1/2 deal sneak attack damage against undead, which would help in grapples.

Wait... you're playing a halfling rogue who grapples?

Greater Truedeath Crystal (MiC 66) allows you to sneak attack undead. 10,000gp

You could make amulet of ghost strike (as ghost strike enchantment in MiC, would cost 10,000gp and have ghost touch too) have it function like an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Dmg) in that it only affects natural attacks (and thus grapple).

[Treblain]

Gravestrike and Golemstrike are swift action spells from Spell Compendium that let you SA undead and constructs. You can get them in wands. Penetrating Strike is also a good idea, it's always better than Trap Sense.

But you should definitely talk to your DM about being unable to hurt enemies. Some DMs have an unconscious dislike of sneak attack, and feel like the rogue should only be using SA in genuine ambush situations like surprise rounds. This is not true. Rogues need frequent SA damage to be effective in combat.

[Makiru]

I've been in the same situation, and Penetrating Strike helped out quite a bit. I think there's a rogue ACF in the PHB2 that can help as well, I just don't remember what it is. The Light and Acid Bomb discoveries could help as well, if you're set on staying alchemist. As already mentioned, put that UMD to good use and get some wands of golemstrike and gravestrike. Also, as a rogue, you get to be the boyscout, always prepared. Prove your worth out of combat by being the one to solve all the puzzles while those big damage dealers twiddle their thumbs. Really, the trick to the rogue is to just be creative with your resources.

[Snowbluff]

Don't play a halfling then, or spec a few levels into Swordsage. At least then you wouldn't rely on crappy racials (+1 to hit for -1 to hit and dmg?), and your precision damge. Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade are requisites to deal damage competitively as a rogue in my opinion.

Talking to your DM should help but you've already chopped of one of your legs trying to play a damage based halfling. Buy yourself a bigger weapon, too. Do you have, like, a feat to deal more damage with concealable weapons? Go get yourself a midget sized greatsword to kick some ass!

The halfling is probably one of the biggest traps you can get into at low levels. When you have very little in damage abilities, and using gimpy weapons, you really can't do much. I have one running in my campaign, and he hasn't been doing well. Doesn't help that this is his first real DnD campaign (lol @ Naruto 'DnD').

[lunar2]

you can build a halfling for accuracy, and depend on getting your sneak attack to hit everything,

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to make a new character, you can use Beguiler from PH2 to still be able to take care of traps. You could go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus even, and with Illumian (Krau/anything) and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler you can apply 10/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you can even get Able Learner. Take Versatile Spellcaster and you can use it to spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast Wizard spells you know, as well as gaining early access to higher level Beguiler spells.

[Snowbluff]

you can build a halfling for accuracy, and depend on getting your sneak attack to hit everything,

His problem is that his DM tends to not allow precision damage and sucker punches him whenever he tries to do anything else. A halfling only gets a plus one to hit AT BEST, and if you don't have weapon finesses (It happens), it adds up to a +0.

[TSED]

His problem is that his DM tends to not allow precision damage and sucker punches him whenever he tries to do anything else. A halfling only gets a plus one to hit AT BEST, and if you don't have weapon finesses (It happens), it adds up to a +0.

Weapon finesse makes it +2.

Throw makes it +2.

Ridiculous hide/sneak racial bonuses to catch them flatfooted makes it +0-to+somethingsignificant.

Halfling specific stuff can put it up further, but the +3 (before hide) at level 1 alone is a huge accuracy boost.

[Bloodgruve]

3rd for Factotum!

Played 2 games with mine so far and its probably the funnest class I've run. I've built for reliable Iaijutsu Focus/Gnomish Quickrazor and do a respectable amount of damage, usually can pull off +5d6 IF dmg and 3 attacks per turn at lvl 8. 1lvl of swordsage can give you tools to make multiple attacks as standard actions.

I will never run a rogue again, Factotum can do everything, at least once per day ;).

GL
Blood

[Snowbluff]

Weapon finesse makes it +2.

Throw makes it +2.

Ridiculous hide/sneak racial bonuses to catch them flatfooted makes it +0-to+somethingsignificant.

Halfling specific stuff can put it up further, but the +3 (before hide) at level 1 alone is a huge accuracy boost.

Compared to an Elf, who would have the +Dex, but no loss in Str, netting more dmg. Combined with medium sized weapons it is more like a +2 (non-precision) damage. Not using flanking (ie, fighting with ranged weapons, it is a -4 for shooting into melee) causes more losses, you would be right, but flanking is the most hassle free way of sneak attacking.

Hide is helpful, but some DMs are less than like to allow hiding midcombat (concealment is a must for me). Also, the extra movement speed is invaluable for flanking, countering the halfling's hide bonus with a more reliable mechanic.

I digress, I was talking about non-precision damage, and with only throwing weapons, you will hit more. An elf will still do more damage.

[Krazzman]

Wait? There is a 3.5 Alchemist Class?

If this is pathfinder then you made some pretty huge mistakes. You should look up what you can sneak attack and what not (Ghosts being the only ones no longer immune to sneak attack afaik).

Furthermore a Grappling Halfling? Woooot? And for what purpose is the Imp. Unarmed? You can use daggers in Grapple afaik too.

If you are a 3.5 group: Dip in Cleric would give: Grave golem and elemental strike available. (Grats now you can sneak attack everything without concealment). Else talk to your dm.

[marcielle]

If you are redoing the whole character, might as well go a Diplomancer Changeling Rogue who uses UMD. If you can grab enough languages, you can convince anything with a mind to hit itself till it dies. Penetrating Strike lets you do half sneak attack damage to EVERYTHING.

Factotums are if anything, even LESS damage oriented than rouges. That being said, they do actually have a cheesey exploit that can be abused to all hell. It involves Iaijutsu Focus, Fast Draw and a cursed weapon. And also some margerine.

A Cloistered cleric dip can actually get you 3 devotion feats easy and minimal skillpoint loss. No major loss if the only spell you really want is Gravestrike. Travel, Animal, Knowledge and Trickery Devotion are all considered pretty good.

[Darth_Versity]

Reroll as beguiler, they have trapfinding and as a full caster can still contribute to nearly any battle. Battlefield control would give you something to do no matter what the enemy and you still have a load of amazing skills. On top of that you can take the penumbra bloodline feat to get Evards Black Tentacles and still do grappling without the problem of being small.

[Curmudgeon]

You've bitten off more than you're capable of chewing here. It's my contention that the Rogue is the D&D class that offers the greatest challenge to optimize effectively; I typically use more than 2 dozen books when building a Rogue character. You can make a Rogue who consistently out-damages Barbarian and Ranger characters, but it's not easy.

If you're having problems with your DM, I would recommend against opting for Factotum as a substitute. Half their class features will likely lead to arguments.

One substitute you might have overlooked is a Kobold Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), with the Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) domain; possibly add Trickery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#trickeryDomain) if you want a more Rogue-like character.

[Psyren]

Is this Pathfinder or 3.5? (You mentioned "alchemist.") If this is Pathfinder, you can SA constructs and undead just fine, your DM doesn't know the rules.

[The Underlord]

If the dm wont let you rerolll, 'advise' the barbarian to enter Frenzied beserker.

[Zagaroth]

A quick summmary of what can not be sneak attacked, assuming you are playing pathfinder.



Precision damage (such as that dealt by a rogues sneak attack ability, or damage done from a critical hit) applies to more creatures than it did in previous editions of the game.

Some may balk at this but it can easily be imagined or explained as the attack having found a weak point in the undead's "body" (such as a zombies head) or even finding a crack or flaw in a constructs "body."

Creatures Immune to Critical Hits:
Aeons
Elementals
Incorporeal (unless using a ghost touch attack) creatures
Oozes
Proteans (50% ignore)
Swarms

Creatures Immune to Precision Damage (like Sneak Attacks)
Elementals
Incorporeal (unless using a ghost touch attack) creatures
Oozes
Proteans (50% ignore)

Creatures Immune to Flanking
Swarms


To be found here.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue

[DragonBaneDM]

All the build options seem super solid, but I'm still behind the early sentiment of just talking to your DM and telling him that you're really not having fun.

[Bunder Black]

So, I've read dutifully all of the thread and took knowledge of your problem, but there's really only one thing I can tell you to do.


All the build options seem super solid, but I'm still behind the early sentiment of just talking to your DM and telling him that you're really not having fun.

Seriously. It's the duty of a DM to make sure every player gets his or her share of the fun. Seeing as I play with a very unorthodox DM who values roleplaying and history above, way above mechanics, I can tell you for sure it's possible for you and your DM to come to a solution together.

There's no set-in-stone way of dealing with that, I agree. So just tell him nicely, offer your help to figure out something, and afterwards you should be able to finally enjoy your experience. ;)

Keep us posted, will ya?

[Hazard_Pay]

We're running pathfinder, but he doesn't allow SA on constructs or undead......

As far as the 'odd' feat choices (grappling halfling, imp unarmed, etc), these are choices not meant to optimize the character but to 'round it out'. I realize that with this line of of feats and class choices, I am not optimal...

I realize that a great many of you responding here are 'optimizers'
I am not looking for optimization tips, But thanks for your time.

I'm more concerned with the DM's either conscious or subconscious hatred of my character.

I get that i will not be able to out damage the Barb with my current build... I'm OK with that.

However, I AM tired of every mob either being immune to SA or given a special 'power' to avoid my attacks. (This is less about my build and more about some issue with the DM)

On a side note, the few times the DM hasn't opted to cheeze the rules to get an NPC out of my attacks, I am seeing pretty solid results with imp grapple, and agile maneuvers.
Once I start getting animal forms via alchemy 'Beast Shape' extracts, I will see less of a penalty from being a halfling.

The very first grapple attempt was an overwhelming success as I leapt from a 2nd story rooftop down onto some corrupt city guards landing on one of their faces. The guard was unable to remove me from around his face, which caused no end of laughter from the other players.

It also resulted in our only living information source since the rest of the corrupt constabulary were cut down by my overzealous cohorts.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait. So he doesn't allow SA on undead, in contradiction to the PF options, and he doesn't allow the 3.5e options that allow SA on undead either? Have you talked to him about this?

[Psyren]

Your DM is not only screwing you, he's actively breaking the rules to do it. Nothing we say here can stop that, you have to talk to him or find a new game.

[Hazard_Pay]

Oh totally... I had my dice packed up shortly after the 'reflex save' to avoid my grapple. But I stayed due to not wanting to make too big a 'scene' and to help the others get through the rest of that particular dungeon crawl.

This was a week ago today, I had told myself i would calm down, think about it, and then see what I feel like doing... it's been a week and I still feel like 'voting with my feet'

I contacted the other players in confidence about it and one of them was of the opinion that I should just sit back and enjoy the story i was being told, and that he noticed that the DM constantly fumbles or ignores rules in order to make a more interesting story....

I wanted to respond: 'Then why bother having us roll dice at all?'

For me, a good DM is one who can roll with the crazy **** their players come up with.

I miss my old DM..... cursed real life and responsibilities! (He and his Wife just had a handsome young son! Huzzah!)

I will bring my concerns up with the DM, and attend another session... if this continues... I'll be looking for anyone gaming in the greater St. Louis area.

[Hazard_Pay]

though... I don't think wanting to actually be able to use my character's special abilities is all that 'crazy'

[Psyren]

though... I don't think wanting to actually be able to use my character's special abilities is all that 'crazy'

For a rogue, it's not crazy at all.

We're on your side, for what it's worth. Just imagine our various stick figures glaring over your shoulder with silent outrage as you confront him.

[Krazzman]

Sorry if it came to the part where it's seemed like i was pitiing your build but i saw tripping halflings, disarming halflings, chargin halflings but never grappling ones. I thought of it being awesome like a litte ball of meat disabling and pinning guys that are double his weight and height.

But for the part where he kills your fun tell the players and then set something up like complaining about rage, about spells etc etc, or just flat add 10 damage if you hit a construct/undead.

Else ask him why he wants to cripple your fun? Explain what irks you and what he should do better. As you are not optimizing I don't get his problem. Constructs have most likely crucial parts. Undeads (like Zombies) Aim for the head, disabling brain = win.

I read this sentence a few times on this board: "Not playing is better than a bad game." Which I think is contraproductive since you want to play... but most times talk to him, it should be worth the effort.

Hope this helps. (If he's a jerk and irks you more either leave or start being a jerk yourself [might be childish but who cares?])

[Hazard_Pay]

Sorry if it came to the part where it's seemed like i was pitiing your build but i saw tripping halflings, disarming halflings, chargin halflings but never grappling ones. I thought of it being awesome like a litte ball of meat disabling and pinning guys that are double his weight and height.

This is precisely why I chose to build him his way..

My character hails from what is basically an analogue to the real world's middle east. (Saudria is the name of the region)

My concept was something along the lines of spymaster.
Close quarters combat training would be of exceptional value if captured and rendered weaponless.

my stats for him are:
15 Str (17 roll - 2 racial)
18 Dex (15 roll +2 racial +1 level 4 Stat increase]
11 Con
17 Int
10 Wis
15 Cha (13 roll +2 racial)

Even though he has a better than average Str for a rogue (especially a halfling rogue) I still opted to use a feat to gain 'agile maneuvers' , knowing he would also take Imp Grapple.

I just added 'Strangler' to his repertoire so once I actually come across some mobs that can be SA'd I can do so from a grapple.

[Belril Duskwalk]

If the DM is actively refusing to allow you to use your abilities, there's only so much to be done. Ideally you would be able to calmly explain to him that even if he allows you to Sneak Attack constructs and undead (as the rules say you can) you would still need to meet standard dex-denial/flanking requirements to use it. Which really wouldn't be able to overshadow a raging barbarian with a great weapon, or anyone else in the party. If you try this route, whatever you do don't try a "let me sneak attack or I leave" approach. He'll probably just get defensive, which won't help anything.

If you can't convince him I think the best option might be leaving the game at the next convenient jump-off point. No need to strand your (presumably nice enough) group halfway down a dungeon without their trap-finder, but also no need to try fighting with one arm cut off by DM-fiat.

[Malachei]

If he uses 3.5 Sneak Attack rules, ask him to allow 3.5 character options.

I'm thinking of Swordsage. And Beguiler. Unseen Seer might be a good option for a PrC.

[Adrayll]

+1 to reroll as beguiler- trapfinding on a (sneaky) fullcaster chassis. Does your party lack a face? Could be a diplomatic way to justify the switch.

[Hazard_Pay]

Talked to my DM
Wow....

so get this, I explain my concerns about him allowing an NPC to move out of his initiative phase. He comes back so many words and accuses me of acting like a baby, and claims my character was being bloodthirsty...

note... this same NPC had jumped my party with a group of his lackeys and threatened us with death if we didn't give him the money we'd just won at a tournament, .. when we refused, they drew sword on us....

Lemme ask you a question... you are an adventurer, and an NPC tries to kill you for petty greed you:
A. Run away and alert the town guard
B. Give him what he wants
C. Offer to blow him
D. KILL HIM AND EVERYONE WHO LOOKS LIKE HIM.... (ok maybe that's over the top but... ffs we have exp to think about here.)

This NPC has a key that is (By the DM's choice of wording) an heirloom of my character's particular culture, which we had originally taken off him after we killed off his band of thieves and i actually had intended to return to my government (Ala Indiana Jones style of heirloom acquisition)

Later we ran into this same NPC and he had information that would help us with a particular problem we were heading over to face... in exchange for the information he requested the key back.

knowing I could 'Sleight of Hand' it off of him later, i agreed....

So later, my attempt to do this is seen as an attack and hence the magic reflex save comes into play...

When I get p.o.'d about NPCs being allowed to cheat, and negate the things on my character sheet.. suddenly I'm infantile?

Neat how that works.

So yeah I will be posting a different thread about looking for a game in the St. Louis area.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yay for voting with your feet!

[Midnight_v]

Wow. Sorry about the immature Dm. However, like they said above... better to not play that play in a bad game.

[Curmudgeon]

Sounds like a pet DMPC, and how dare you attack them? :smalleek:

Yes, voting with your feet does seem like the wisest course.

[Doc Roc]

Sounds like a pet DMPC, and how dare you attack them? :smalleek:

Yes, voting with your feet does seem like the wisest course.

We agree? We agree.

[Hazard_Pay]

wow. just wow.

I responded to his email, in the same tone and style, reasoning out why you can't fudge rules calls too much for story

Notably, if you have a power / ability on your sheet it is reasonable to assume it should work every time the dice favor you.

If you cannot rely on a power working regularly you lose the ability to plan your tactics for a given encounter.

You can't even reliably predict your survival in a given encounter. He could simply say 'poof you all die'

Rules aren't just for players.

He cancelled the campaign for everyone, saying he has an increasing workload and won't really have time to continue.

/shrug

apologized to my other players, and advised him to continue it without my presence and for them to actively keep on him to continue the game.....

thank the flying spaghetti monster Skyrim came out.....

[Darth_Versity]

wow. just wow.

I responded to his email, in the same tone and style, reasoning out why you can't fudge rules calls too much for story

Notably, if you have a power / ability on your sheet it is reasonable to assume it should work every time the dice favor you.

If you cannot rely on a power working regularly you lose the ability to plan your tactics for a given encounter.

You can't even reliably predict your survival in a given encounter. He could simply say 'poof you all die'

Rules aren't just for players.

He cancelled the campaign for everyone, saying he has an increasing workload and won't really have time to continue.

/shrug

apologized to my other players, and advised him to continue it without my presence and for them to actively keep on him to continue the game.....

thank the flying spaghetti monster Skyrim came out.....

Don't worry about it, some people are just not capable of making a good DM. Its usually people who believe the world you play in is more important than the PC's in it.

If he's given up why don't you try running a game for the others or ask one of them to start one up?

[lord pringle]

How good are you at DMing? If I were you I would DM a game for your group.

[Rubik]

How good are you at DMing? If I were you I would DM a game for your group.And once you prove to be 50x better than him, word will spread (ask them to spread it around), and that guy will never DM again.

[Leon]

He cancelled the campaign for everyone, saying he has an increasing workload and won't really have time to continue.


Probably the best result that could have happened for all involved. It may suck that all players are out of a game but if it removes a bad DM from the equation its for the best.