[D&D 3.5] Build advice for assassin wannabe player?

[Lortharian Duin]

Hello to all,

Despite being a DM for a half a year now the time has come for me to take a roll of a mortal sitting on a opposite side of DM chair, I need some advices for my assassin build for upcoming game.

I'll play human neutral/evil aligned.
Faerun setting starting of somewhere in good old Sword coast. It will be a long game probably going into 20+ levels. We are starting of at level 3.
House rules: ToB and ToM are not allowed.

We'll probably have 32 or 36 points to invest in abilities with starting attribute points of 8 having in mind that investing after 16 ability score the cost of points doubles. So my stats should be around:
STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 16
WIS: 12
CHA: 14
Perhaps more in STR than CHA, haven't decided yet since rest of my party is
Barbarian that will probably go Frenzy,
power driven Wizard,
stoned Cleric
and perhaps a ADHD,schizophrenic Fighter, judging by performance of that player on my sessions.

My build at the moment: Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 7
1.Ranger 1: feats: Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Fav.Enemy: humanoid (human), Voice of the City (Found it more useful than Wild empathy)
2.Ranger 2: combat style: Two-weapon fighting
3.Ranger 2/Rogue 1: feat: Telling Blow; skill trick: Hidden Blade
4.Ranger 2/Rogue 2:
5.Ranger 2/Rogue 3: Penetrating Strike (instead of Trap Sense)
6.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 1: feat: Flick of the Wrist
7.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 2
8.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 3
9.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 4: feat: Staggering Strike; skill trick: Spot the weak point
10.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 5
11.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 6
12.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 7: feat: Acrobatic Strike; skill trick: Acrobatic Backstab
13.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8
14.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 1
15.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 2: feat: Darkstalker
16.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 3: skill trick: Mosquito bite (for the LoLs)
17.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 4
18.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 5: feat: ?
19.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 6
20.Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8/Nightsong Enforcer 7

I wanted to focus more on having as high BAB, not too much sneak attack feats rather some feats that let me use sneak attack more often or boost my lowBAB. I won't take Craven feat because of RP reasons and Imp. Two-weapon fighting sounded like a trap 'cos I don't expect to full attack so often plus -5 on BAB with a offhand on already low BAB progression just seems wrong. Perhaps I'm horribly wrong, ignorant and that is the main reason why I ask for your advice.

What feats should I exchange in your opinion? Should I multiclass in other manner (only condition is to get assassin as soon as possible)? What prestige class after assassin would you take? Can you suggest me your assassin build (with ToB, ToM books excluded)?

[Malachei]

Beguiler may help.

[Stormageddon]

Two weapon fighting should be your bread and butter for this build. It's -2 to your attacks not -5. Plus you should be trying to get your enemy flat-footed as often as possible so the ac should be ok even without a great AB.

[Keld Denar]

Telling Blow is a trap. Its generally better to move in a way to ensure that you get 1 attack in flanking (or otherwise making your foe flat footed) than to make 2-3 attacks and pray for a crit. Focusing on critting isn't that great, since the difference between your crits and non-crits at mid levels will be an extra 1d6+1 factored in among 6-7d6 SA damage which won't multiply, and you don't have Craven as a source of static damage that'll multiply on a crit.

Recent Iron Optimization challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202), check out some of the builds in here, especially the ones with Psionic Assassin.

[Lortharian Duin]

Beguiler may help.

Couldn't find it? What does it do?


Two weapon fighting should be your bread and butter for this build. It's -2 to your attacks not -5. Plus you should be trying to get your enemy flat-footed as often as possible so the ac should be ok even without a great AB.

Yeah, I took two-weapon fighting with Rangers combat style. I just thought of not going further on Improved and Greater because of extra -5 and -10 on my attack hit.


Telling Blow is a trap.

I thought so too, and the way I looked at it, it seemed like a joker up my sleeve. To shine where I couldn't flank or make target flat-footed. What could I grab instead of it. Thought of Combat expertise and later on Improved feint.


Recent Iron Optimization challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202), check out some of the builds in here, especially the ones with Psionic Assassin.

Thanks for the link very much.

[Gavinfoxx]

Beguiler is in PHB II. Remember, assassins are just people willing to kill individuals for money. There are several ways of getting close to the target. Beguiler is good at conning people into letting them get close to a target, for example...

[hex0]

Telflammor Shadowlord! It is even ultimate magus worthy because it casts like a wizard.

[Flickerdart]

Do note that Assassin is an arcane casting class, so it qualifies you for Obtain Familiar and, of course, Improved Familiar. Many Improved Familiars have poisons, which you can milk out of them and put on your weapons.

[hex0]

Do note that Assassin is an arcane casting class, so it qualifies you for Obtain Familiar and, of course, Improved Familiar. Many Improved Familiars have poisons, which you can milk out of them and put on your weapons.

If you can get minor psionic creation you can get cheap poisons as well. Psychic Rogue/Psychic Assassin/Telflammor Shadowlord is a good build.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would look at Factotum for your class.

Ranger 2/Factotum 8/Assassin 10 would probably be a good bet. Is there something specific you are using Nightsong Enforcer for, because I don't see anything in the class that is actually particularly good.

[Lortharian Duin]

I would look at Factotum for your class.

Ranger 2/Factotum 8/Assassin 10 would probably be a good bet. Is there something specific you are using Nightsong Enforcer for, because I don't see anything in the class that is actually particularly good.

I'm using it mostly because it has full BAB progression, full sneak attack, opportunist that would later let me go for "sneak attack of opportunity" if we go into 20+ levels, and it has a small boost on my flanking attacks.
I'm considering swapping Enforcer for somethin' more iconic for Faerun setting... so far I've got useful advices, 'cos I've never considered to focus more on spells rather than sneak attack.

Now that boost on spells crossed my mind I'll probably focus on somethin' that still wouldn't push me of the ledge from being a sneaky/shady character.

I don't want to sacrifice too many sneak attacks though, 7d6 found to be quite optimal in my opinion.

[Optimator]

I think your build is pretty cool.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum gives you sneak attack at 4th level, and at 8th it allows you to take another standard action which can easily be used to net you a second sneak attack.

At a minimum I would replace Rogue and 1 level of Nightsong Enforcer for 4 levels of Factotum.

[The Glyphstone]

Factotum gives you sneak attack at 4th level, and at 8th it allows you to take another standard action which can easily be used to net you a second sneak attack.

At a minimum I would replace Rogue and 1 level of Nightsong Enforcer for 4 levels of Factotum.

Pretty sure that's a net loss of Sneak Attack there - you give up 3d6 SA on every attack for +3d6 SA on a single hit per fight, since Factotums only have 3 IP at level 4 without burning feats for Font of Inspiration. - using those IP for anything else reduces that SA total, which leaves the only thing he actually gets out of Factotum as Brains Over Brawn and a single 1st level spell/day. Fewer skill points, and the only relevant skill Factotums have that Rogues don't is Iajatsu Focus (which takes a specific build to use to max potential).

[Lortharian Duin]

Pretty sure that's a net loss of Sneak Attack there - you give up 3d6 SA on every attack for +3d6 SA on a single hit per fight, since Factotums only have 3 IP at level 4 without burning feats for Font of Inspiration. - using those IP for anything else reduces that SA total, which leaves the only thing he actually gets out of Factotum as Brains Over Brawn and a single 1st level spell/day. Fewer skill points, and the only relevant skill Factotums have that Rogues don't is Iajatsu Focus (which takes a specific build to use to max potential).

On top of everything, I know for a fact that Factotum isn't on a wish list of my DM. Myself, I don't find factotum as a best solution.

[hex0]

On top of everything, I know for a fact that Factotum isn't on a wish list of my DM. Myself, I don't find factotum as a best solution.

Factotum 3/(Psychic) Rogue 2 is probably the best Assassin entry around. Brains over Brawn and Evasion.

[Malachei]

On top of everything, I know for a fact that Factotum isn't on a wish list of my DM. Myself, I don't find factotum as a best solution.

Factotum is on my personal no-go-list, as well. I find the idea of the class really, really boring.

Beguiler, on the other hand, is a wonderful class. It has excellent spellcasting (it gets its full spell list as spells known), specializes in enchantment and illusion spells, has casting in light armor and an excellent skill list. You can easily fill the party skillmonkey with a beguiler, and for an assassin build, a dip may be interesting, if only for a few spells that help you in the many city-based social situations you might find yourself in.

Unseen Seer is an interesting Prestige Class.

[Lortharian Duin]

I'm thinking about excluding Enforcer out and put somethin' that will allow me wide variant of touch spell attacks.

By taking Poison spell feat from DotU furthermore to be able to place sneak attack dmg + melee touch spell dmg + poison dmg in a single action.

sneak attack + ranged touch if my opponent is inside 30 feet if flat-footed ofc. Is there a INT based caster that has a nice spell list with some cool touch spells inside 7 levels and perhaps, just perhaps a stealthy/shady appearance.

I'm thinking Telflammar Shadowlord...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) is considerably better than the DMG Assassin for disabling people, due to its Mind Cripple ability. Something like Ranger 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 9 would get +16 BAB and 16th level Psion manifesting at a manifester level of 20 with Practiced Manifester, which you'll need to qualify for Psychic Assassin. I'd also use the Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant to get Fast Movement at Ranger 1. Between Psion buffs, TWF with 2 Int damage per hit when you can sneak attack, and the superior blasting capability of psionics in general, this should prove to be an extremely capable character.

[The Glyphstone]

Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) is considerably better than the DMG Assassin for disabling people, due to its Mind Cripple ability. Something like Ranger 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 9 would get +16 BAB and 16th level Psion manifesting at a manifester level of 20 with Practiced Manifester, which you'll need to qualify for Psychic Assassin. I'd also use the Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant to get Fast Movement at Ranger 1. Between Psion buffs, TWF with 2 Int damage per hit when you can sneak attack, and the superior blasting capability of psionics in general, this should prove to be an extremely capable character.


Special Abilities: At 5th and 9th levels the psychic assassin gains a special ability of her choice from the psychic rogue special ability list, seen below.

Enhanced Sneak Attack (Su): When the psychic assassin has psionic focus, she adds psionic damage to her sneak attacks. This ability increases her sneak attack damage by +1d6. (For example, an 11th-level psychic assassin would deal +5d6 damage with a sneak attack instead of +4d6). This ability may be selected up to three times.

Bwuuuuuuuuuut?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bwuuuuuuuuuut?

Those special abilities are Copypasta from Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), which gets four total special abilities.

[hex0]

By taking Poison spell feat from DotU furthermore to be able to place sneak attack dmg + melee touch spell dmg + poison dmg in a single action.

sneak attack + ranged touch if my opponent is inside 30 feet if flat-footed ofc. Is there a INT based caster that has a nice spell list with some cool touch spells inside 7 levels and perhaps, just perhaps a stealthy/shady appearance.


Duskblade? :smallwink:

Trickster Spellthief 1/Duskblade




I'm thinking Telflammar Shadowlord...

I am too. The fastest way in to have the Shadow Walker template, as it takes forever to get dimension door. Just buy off the LA.

Psychic Rogue 5/Psychic Assassin 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 6/Psychic Assassin 7 (or get to Psychic Assassin 5 for mind cripple before getting into Telflammar Shadowlord)

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, ok. That makes sense then. Though now it smacks of lazy editing, because they did remember to change 'psychic rogue' to 'psychic assassin' but didn't take out a restriction that could never be broken anyways. (even multiclassing PR and PA, you'll never get more than 3 picks pre-Epic).

[Lortharian Duin]

Characters in exact order of acquisition:
Ranger 1-2 (dip up to level 2)
Rogue 3-5 (3 levels with evasion, penetrating strike variant and trapfinding)
Assassin 6-13 (8 levels of good pure stalking)
Telflammar Shadowlord 13-19 (full Faerun specific PrC, LOVE IT, thanks for mentioning him)
Assassin 20-21 (finish with some more spells and one extra SA)
Epic assassin next ^^ (a big IF)

Feat progression:
1. Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Favored enemy: Humanoid (human)
2. Combat style: Two-weapon fighting
3. Flick of the wrist
6. Sickening Strike
9. Staggering Strike
12. Darkstalker
15. Poison Spells
18. Terrifying Strike

I'm thinking about Master of Poisons, also from DotU, but because of Assassins poison use feature it could be just a huge mistake.
Nemesis would be a very interesting feat to take also.

Edit: Psychic Rogues, assassins, I know they are good, but... dunno, I'm not feelin' them, its me, I find it not interesting for roleplay. Though its a strong build.

[Dazed&Confused]

It's kind of a hard way of improving your assassin, but if you could find a way of casting quickened Improved Invisibilities as soon as possible, it'd be great.

Just get Quickened Spell and 3 levels in Magical Trickster. That's one free quickened spell/day.

[edit]

[Dazed&Confused]

You could get one cleric level for Divine Strength(it's great on dual-wielding characters) and access to cool domains, and one or two Hexblade levels for the curse and/or the resistance boost would be kinda cool too.

The only sad thing about being an Assassin is that Imp. Inv would only come in the 13th level, which is really late IMO. Maybe you can find a faster way of accessing it, I dunno, perhaps getting a wizard level and multiclassing it or w/e. You can always UMD scrolls/wands though. Or convincing the power driven Wizard to cast it on you, even better, and not hard.

Or you could get Leadership and get an evil shadow adept worshipper of Shar gnome illusionist to cast it on you all the time :p That would come at the 9th level. Also would have a nice flavor, the partnership of murdering and trickering!

[Lortharian Duin]

You could get one cleric level for Divine Strength(it's great on dual-wielding characters) and access to cool domains, and one or two Hexblade levels for the curse and/or the resistance boost would be kinda cool too.

The only sad thing about being an Assassin is that Imp. Inv would only come in the 13th level, which is really late IMO. Maybe you can find a faster way of accessing it, I dunno, perhaps getting a wizard level and multiclassing it or w/e. You can always UMD scrolls/wands though. Or convincing the power driven Wizard to cast it on you, even better, and not hard.

Or you could get Leadership and get an evil shadow adept worshipper of Shar gnome illusionist to cast it on you all the time :p That would come at the 9th level. Also would have a nice flavor, the partnership of murdering and trickering!

I like the way you think ^^

It really would be awesome. I linked this build hoping I'll get useful advices, and you guys have given me. Problem is that I don't know complete house rules just yet, 'cos some classes will not be allowed as playable, for example I'm sure psychic won't be. I wanted to hear an opinion from players that have more experience in build design than me. I'll pick somethin' that suits me and group in best possible manner.

Thank you all for tolerating my lack of information and for helping in more ways that you can imagine.

I have a last doubt I'd like to share: Would a Imp. Feint be a must for me in this build?

[hex0]

Why wait for poison when you can play a Psychic Rogue and get Minor Psionic Creation for as much poison as you want for free...at third level.

[Curmudgeon]

It's kind of a hard way of improving your assassin, but if you could find a way of casting quickened Improved Invisibilities as soon as possible, it'd be great.
I think a better option would be to take the Faerûn-only version of the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152, then buy off that +1 level adjustment at class level 3 for 3,000 XP. You'll start with Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight rather than waiting until level 13. Mundane Hide is much better than magical invisibility.

[Lortharian Duin]

I think a better option would be to take the Faerûn-only version of the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152, then buy off that +1 level adjustment at class level 3 for 3,000 XP. You'll start with Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight rather than waiting until level 13. Mundane Hide is much better than magical invisibility.

I didn't know you could buy off +1 level adjustment. How you do that, just by lowering 3,000 XP or you must take a feat with it?
Is there a race that gets bonus feat like human does and some neat DEX, CON or INT increases?

[Keld Denar]

Strongheart Halfling is IIRC the only race that has +stats and a bonus feat. Players Guide to Faerun. Just like a normal vanillia halfling, but they lose the +1 to all saves and gain a bonus feat. They have the standard +2 Dex/-2 Str of all halflings.

[Gavinfoxx]

I didn't know you could buy off +1 level adjustment. How you do that, just by lowering 3,000 XP or you must take a feat with it?
Is there a race that gets bonus feat like human does and some neat DEX, CON or INT increases?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

[Lortharian Duin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

Awesome! Thank you.