adjusting classes to tier 1

[kulosle]

so are DM finally read the tier list and did some homework and decided that we all have to play characters of the same tier. this is not fun for anyone. we tried to ration with him, saying we'd play unoptimized tier 1s (heal bot cleric, blaster wizard) and optimize other classes. but he is determined. so we finally came to a compromise. we can submit ideas for tier 1 versions of other classes so that we are all the same power level. this just sounds like tons of fun. does any one have some fun ideas of how to make classes into tier 1? specifically melee.
also i'm interested in playing a factotum and another wants to play a sorcerer. so does giving the factotum spell progression similar to the archivist, but arcane, make it tier 1? and does giving the sorcerer wizard spell progression bump him up a tier? any other ideas for making classes tier 1's is also good.

[hamishspence]

Didn't Frank Trollman attempt to write upgrades to the melee classes to bring them a bit closer to tier 1?

As it is- it's very hard to give them the kind of sheer versatility that tier 1s get.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, here's the expanded list...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0

Encourage him to expand it to Tier 1 & 2, because they all have mostly the same tricks.

So you all can play Wizard / Archivist / Artificer / StP Erudite / Binder / Cleric / Druid / Other Psion / Sorcerer / etc., and have lots of interesting options regardless...

[dextercorvia]

Honestly, the easiest way to do this, is to play Tier 1 classes that are specialized in the area that you want.

Wizard is the T1 Sorcerer. (Uncanny Foresight+Versatile Spellcaster allows you to be spontaneous.) Or you can go STP Erudite.

Archivist, Cloistered Cleric, or Wizard all make T1 Factotums without worrying about skills and stuff. Most of that can be obviated with magic anyway.

Want a Melee Brute? Play a Druid, Cleric, or Malconvoker.

[Randomguy]

I know of two tier 1 melee classes, not much optimisation required: Cleric and druid. :smallbiggrin:

Asides from those, the best melee classes are tier 3, and they're the initator classes plus duskblade and I think maybe ranger. Heck, even the ubercharger is rated at tier 4 because it can't do anything other than blast.

If your DM is serious about making everyone play the same tier, recommend the partial gestalt system: Tier 1, 2 and 3 classes stay the same but tier 4's can gestalt with a tier 6 class class and tier 5's can gestalt with another tier 5. Or something like that. I'm not sure of exactly which tiers gestalt with which tiers.


EDIT: Ninja'd, but still mostly valid.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can fairly easily get most classes up to tier 2, but tier 1 requires a level of versatility that the vast majority of classes can't reach.

A Warblade//Factotum//PsiWarrior still wouldn't break Tier 1 even at level 20 (and yes I know that is triple gestalt). That character would fairly easily keep up with Tier 2 classes but any Tier 1 build could drop such a character without any real problem.

[JaronK]

I definitely don't recommend outright forcing everyone to play T1. There's only a few such classes, and they don't cover all archetypes! At the very least pick a more robust tier (3 or 4) so everyone can play the character types they like...

With that said, it would be REALLY hard to turn classes like Barbarians into T1s (how do you make a pure melee class into something that can bug gods for answers, teleport around the world, and summon armies?).

Anyway, the T1 Factotum is the Artificer. The T1 of almost any melee is probably a DMM Cleric or a Druid (an Artificer can fake it too).

JaronK

[docnessuno]

A factotum with full arcane progression? that screams broken so loud it's not even funny. Tier 0, possibly -1

Your best bet to 'even ut' the tiers might be gestalting. For that i'd like to suggest this:
T1: 6 points
T2: 5 points
T3: 4 points
T4: 3 points
T5: 2 points
T6: 1 point

Each level your total may not exceed X points (6 if allowing tier 1 in the game, 5 if allowing tier 2, 4 otherwise)It's a slightly modified version of the gestalt rules proposed in the Tiers discussion.

[Gavinfoxx]

There isn't a Tier 0 or -1, is there? Tier 1 is already 'can break the game in several ways', so...

Anyway, maybe if you want to END UP at Tier 1, you could take lower tier options and look at the useful stuff here to bump lower options up some:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

What do you think?

[Diefje]

you could point out that the Tier system has nothing to do with actual gameplay for starters.

If he insists on T1 only, you might as well put everyone in a dress and pointy hat. The point of T1 is that they are better than everyone else at everything, why adapt lesser classes when you could all just play wizards and be done with it...

tl;dr your DM is silly

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, there's one easy way you can make anything tier 1/2... just give it spells.

OK, well, no, it's not quite that simple. But give any base class a decent range of flexible spells/powers that go up to high levels, and the ability to occasionally change out those spells/powers, and they'll be high enough tier. Call it sword magic or meditations or whatever you want, but that's going to basically do the trick.

[Hiro Protagonest]

so are DM finally read the tier list and did some homework and decided that we all have to play characters of the same tier. this is not fun for anyone. we tried to ration with him, saying we'd play unoptimized tier 1s (heal bot cleric, blaster wizard) and optimize other classes. but he is determined. so we finally came to a compromise. we can submit ideas for tier 1 versions of other classes so that we are all the same power level. this just sounds like tons of fun. does any one have some fun ideas of how to make classes into tier 1? specifically melee.
also i'm interested in playing a factotum and another wants to play a sorcerer. so does giving the factotum spell progression similar to the archivist, but arcane, make it tier 1? and does giving the sorcerer wizard spell progression bump him up a tier? any other ideas for making classes tier 1's is also good.

Buy Tome of Battle, play GOD wizards and sorcerers and the GOD equivalent of clerics and druids. Since GODs are based on trapping enemies and buffing allies while letting the allies actually kill the enemies, everyone's equal.

[kulosle]

so part of the idea was that it would be easier to bring things to tier 1 than to drag things down to tier 3. but maybe we were wrong. to the flip side of this. how does one make a cleric tier 3?

also the factotum would have very few spells but still 9th level casting.

i've seen the gestalting idea before and it doesn't add up. just cause the sorcerer now has full bab and good fort (chose warrior) doesnt make him as good as the wizard

[nedz]

You could try making a party all out of the same class.
T1s are so versatile that you can fulfill all roles.

Try Team Cleric or Team Wizard or even Team Druid.

[kulosle]

that sounds hilariously awesome. team druid especially sounds like fun. hahaha i'll suggest that, but i doubt it'll fly. people don't like others stepping on each others toes. all specialist wizards might go, but i feel sorry for the one who chooses evocation.

[Hiro Protagonest]

so part of the idea was that it would be easier to bring things to tier 1 than to drag things down to tier 3. but maybe we were wrong. to the flip side of this. how does one make a cleric tier 3?

also the factotum would have very few spells but still 9th level casting.

i've seen the gestalting idea before and it doesn't add up. just cause the sorcerer now has full bab and good fort (chose warrior) doesnt make him as good as the wizard

It's wayyy easier to make something tier 3 than tier 1. Make wizards 2/3 casters, restrict them to four schools, three for diviners, two for other specialists, give them only one free spell per level, and make the price to learn a new spell 100+10(spell level)2. Make sorcerers 2/3 casters, with bard spells known per day. Make clerics 2/3 casters, choose two domains at first level, another domain at 3rd level, and another at 5th level. Druids get 2/3 casting, and learn 2+Wis modifier spells at 1st level plus another spell at each druid level after.

That makes them low tier 2 to high tier 3.

[navar100]

It would require DM cooperation. It would help warriors if not every monster is an iteration of a large four legged flying creature with 10ft reach, fast healing, and DR. Combat tactics should matter. If a warrior wants to do something other than attack for damage, even if it's just Disarm or Bull Rush, it should be possible a good amount of time to do in the first place and relevant to how the combat plays out.

Some house rules couldn't hurt. A nice one I've learned is for every BAB iteration you can move 5ft and still full attack. That is, at +6/+1 you can move 10ft and full attack, +11/+6/+1 you can move 15ft and full attack, +16/+11/+6/+1 can move 20ft and full attack. This is only for warrior classes (paladins and rangers too), not spellcasters including druid and cleric. Rogues can spend a feat or talent for the privilege.

Change Mobility feat to include no provoking AoO for such movement. House rule a feat to add 5ft to such movement. House rule another feat to allow full round actions in addition to full attacks. (This will include Pounce.)

Use Pathfinder classes. They don't make warriors Tier 1, but they are an improvement.

Alternatively, use Tome of Battle only for warrior classes.

[Analytica]

It's wayyy easier to make something tier 3 than tier 1. Make wizards 2/3 casters, restrict them to four schools, three for diviners, two for other specialists, give them only one free spell per level, and make the price to learn a new spell 100+10(spell level)2. Make sorcerers 2/3 casters, with bard spells known per day. Make clerics 2/3 casters, choose two domains at first level, another domain at 3rd level, and another at 5th level. Druids get 2/3 casting, and learn 2+Wis modifier spells at 1st level plus another spell at each druid level after.

That makes them low tier 2 to high tier 3.

Though... Healer, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage are all Tier 3 or lower, but still have ninth-level spells. Having access to an entire spell list in theory makes you Tier 2, having access to it in practice makes you Tier 1. I would instead argue for the various fixes people like jiriku (I think?) presented on these forums, where there are additional fixed-list casters, which together replace the Tier 1 and 2 casters.

[JaronK]

I played a bit with trying to tone down the T1s to T2-4 levels via quick and dirty hacks. The basics I went with:

Druid divided into two classes. One loses spellcasting entirely, but gets the ability to give Fast Healing at will to others who are not moving (thus allowing for downtime healing). At higher levels, that ability let you repair other forms of status damage (like disease). The other loses Wild Shape and has their Animal Companion advance like the Ranger version.

Clerics get to pick 5 domains appropriate to their god (this does mean expanding each god's list, or at least just letting players pick 5 things that seem appropriate). You can spontaneously cast any of the spells off these domain lists out of your normal slots. Additionally, you can prepare a single spell per level from the Cleric list in what was your domain slot. You don't get Rebuke/Turn Undead automatically, and instead get a single Domain power of your choice from one of your Domains (Rebuke/Turn Undead should be a domain power for domains like Sun and Undeath). At every 5th Cleric level (5, 10, 15, 20) you gain one more domain power from one of your five chosen domains.

Wizards have to specialize in a single school of magic. They can only cast from that school and Universal. However, they get all the UA variant abilities and PHB2 abilities without trading anything, and additionally get the Esoterica abilities of the Master Specialist PrC appropriate to their school added in as though they'd started that class at level 5. Additionally I deleted the entire Polymorph line of spells (including Alter Self) and made all spells that do damage as their primary function into Evocation spells (including Maw of Chaos, the various Orb spells, and so on). Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor become Abjuration.

I didn't come up with any good ideas for Archivist or Artificer though. But with these changes, Clerics should be Tier 2-4 (depending on domains), Caster Druids should be T2ish, Wild Shape Druids should be T3, and Wizards are T2-4 depending on which school they took (Diviners around T4, Conjurers around T2). It's quick and dirty but it should get the job done (roughly).

JaronK

[Emmerask]

There isn't a Tier 0 or -1, is there? Tier 1 is already 'can break the game in several ways', so...

Yes there is, though tier 0 or -x is achieved via prestige classes...

There are quite a few ways to be better then a pure wizard or a cleric

For example there are ways to achieve 9th level spells much earlier then 17th level (I think 12th level with Urpriest for example), or you have the ability to reduce metamagic costs to practically zero (incantatrix) or you have some extremely powerful abilities like the initiate of the sevenfold veil or cheater of mystra...

As for the adjusting all classes to tier1...
I think the only way to do that would be to give them all full or maybe slightly delayed (1 to 2 levels) spellcasting

[Hiro Protagonest]

Though... Healer, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage are all Tier 3 or lower, but still have ninth-level spells. Having access to an entire spell list in theory makes you Tier 2, having access to it in practice makes you Tier 1. I would instead argue for the various fixes people like jiriku (I think?) presented on these forums, where there are additional fixed-list casters, which together replace the Tier 1 and 2 casters.

Yeah, but it's impossible to make a conjurer or transmuter class and have it be tier 3. With access to just that one school, you're tier 2. 2/3 casting helps with that.

Healer is tier 4, so not what we want for the cleric. Warmage is also tier 4, since it doesn't even get all the evocation spells, like Wall of Force and Bigby's line.

And where'd I say they get acces to the entire spell list? Should I make it so wizards can't learn any spells from books and scrolls at all? I guess 8200 gp isn't much to pay for a 9th level spell, but I didn't want it to be too expensive... 100+50(spell level)2?

[Gotterdammerung]

Tell him he is misunderstanding the purpose of the tier system (it barely has any purpose, but forcing a party into one tier is definitely not one of its purposes.)

Band together as a group of players. Tell him you don't want to do this. It isn't the original intent of the tier system and it forces everyone to play characters they don't want to play.

If the GM is still stubborn about it. I personally, would either leave the game or talk about starting a new game.

[Adrayll]

If he wants T1 so badly, why don't you all just play Lightning Warriors?

[Emmerask]

If he wants T1 so badly, why don't you all just play Lightning Warriors?

They sacrifice too much power for flavor to be considered T1

Yes I went there

[kulosle]

Tell him he is misunderstanding the purpose of the tier system (it barely has any purpose, but forcing a party into one tier is definitely not one of its purposes.)

Band together as a group of players. Tell him you don't want to do this. It isn't the original intent of the tier system and it forces everyone to play characters they don't want to play.

If the GM is still stubborn about it. I personally, would either leave the game or talk about starting a new game.

yeah this sounds like the best option.

all though i do like the idea of the movement for warrior classes. although i think that might make scouts a bit much.

does anyone have a better version of a gestalt ruling, i think he would like that if it was more balanced. maybe something that like

tier 1=6 points
tier 2=5 points
tier 3=3 points
tier 4=2 points
tier 5=1 points
tier 6=.5 points

six points max
thats still not quite perfect but it's better.

[Hirax]

Any sort of gestalt system is going to be inherently flawed until you find a good way to factor in prestige classes. So if you're saying that I could gestalt a T2 and T5, you're basically inviting me to do this:

Sorcerer20/humanparagon3/paladin of tyranny or evil2/urpriest10

[Gavinfoxx]

There is a Tier system for PrC's and Templates out there, too...

[kulosle]

i can't seem to find one for prestige classes. does anyone have the link?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0

[Hirax]

The tier list for prcs, while a bold effort, isn't going to make sense often enough that you're better off spot checking builds manually, and not adhering to any sort of point system.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Druid//monk.

Cleric//CW samurai.

Sorcerer//OA samurai.

[Aquillion]

There's not really any way to bring some concepts up to Tier 1/2 without fundamentally redefining them. If you're all right with a thief who can leap to anywhere in the world in an instant with one jump, or a warrior who can cut through time and space with his sword to reach another plane of existence, then I guess you could do it, but that's not going to be what many people want to play when they think "warrior" or "thief."

Tier 1/2 is more or less defined as "full caster", and you pretty much need to be a full caster or have access to complete spell lists somehow in order to do it. There's no easy way around it -- at a bare minimum, you'd be stuck writing a huge list of new powers.

[Ziegander]

There's no easy way around it -- at a bare minimum, you'd be stuck writing a huge list of new powers.

An exercise in futility to begin with seeing as how you'd be writing a huge list of new powers that do the same thing as existing ones.

[Analytica]

Yeah, but it's impossible to make a conjurer or transmuter class and have it be tier 3. With access to just that one school, you're tier 2. 2/3 casting helps with that.

None of the fixed-list casters get just one school, and everything from that school, though. I am sure you could construct a spell list with mainly conjuration or transmutation spells (and some additional utility) and still keep it T2. I believe there may be homebrew on the boards to this purpose. :smallsmile:


Healer is tier 4, so not what we want for the cleric. Warmage is also tier 4, since it doesn't even get all the evocation spells, like Wall of Force and Bigby's line.

In fact, Healer is prepared MAD casting, so strictly worse. I just mentioned it to make the point that 2/3 casting in itself is not necessary to be below T2. (Which I guess we agree on, then.)


And where'd I say they get acces to the entire spell list? Should I make it so wizards can't learn any spells from books and scrolls at all?

If you do that, why play a wizard at all? The only reason, I think, to ever take non-spontaneous casting with all its hassles is because in theory you can always expand your repertoire without having to level or take feats. A 2/3 wizard might well be T3 anyway without additional restrictions, because they get everything so much later. I may be wrong about this, however.

[Prime32]

that sounds hilariously awesome. team druid especially sounds like fun. hahaha i'll suggest that, but i doubt it'll fly. people don't like others stepping on each others toes. all specialist wizards might go, but i feel sorry for the one who chooses evocation.The definition of Tier 1 is basically "steps on everyones' toes".


so part of the idea was that it would be easier to bring things to tier 1 than to drag things down to tier 3. but maybe we were wrong. to the flip side of this. how does one make a cleric tier 3?There are other classes similar to cleric, like adept.

[RedWarrior0]

There are other classes similar to cleric, like adept.

One should note that it's pretty bad when one of your NPC classes is more competent than a good chunk of your PC classes and on par with most of the rest.

[Amphetryon]

With a single Flaw for everyone (to get Tomb-Tainted Soul), Dread Necromancer is a T3 Cleric and/or Druid. If memory serves, there are homebrews floating around to make list-casters a la Dread Necromancer/Beguiler/Warmage of the other schools of magic, also, which drags them kicking and screaming toward T3, if not smack-dab into T3 proper.

[Adrayll]

Now that I think about it, a group with everyone playing a different list-caster would be pretty fun.

[DDogwood]

Why, oh why, oh WHY would your DM want a party of all Tier 1s? I he trying to prove how broken the d20 system can be, or does he just want his players to waltz through every single encounter he cooks up in a couple of levels?

I don't think the tier systems meant to be used this way, but if you want to keep everyone on about the same power level, tier 3 is where it's at. That's where you can fit most character concepts one way or another, and if someone really wants to play something else, the tier 4s won't feel as badly outclassed all the time (they may even be better than tier 3s in their specialty area) and tier 2s can play nicely without gimping themselves too much.

Really, the tier 1s and the tier 5s are the only ones that regularly ruin games; even that can be mitigated by a level cap... If you only allow 2 levels of cleric/wizard/witch/Druid for every 1 level in any other class, for example, you'll find that the tier 1s become much less appealing to play and at least some of their universe-breaking power gets toned down.

[dspeyer]

The idea of a Tier 1 fighter has been attempted before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12116206), though it tends to get slightly on the silly side. I haven't seen a Tier 1 skillmonkey, but enough houserules would probably make it possible.

Probably a better idea would be for all your characters to be gestalt with tier 1 on one side but primarily roll-play the other side.

[Godskook]

First of all, its best to allow at least 2 tiers, considering that they wind up fairly well grouped that way. So tier 1&2, tier 3&4 and tier 5&6.

Second, assuming your DM allows both tier 1&2, here's some builds that incorporate different goals into them:

Paladin-esque melee:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Rogue-like:
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Shaper X/Unseen Seer Y

Monk:
Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Enlightened Fist +6

And the thing is, you're totally ok with running tier 3s in a tier 1&2 game. They're strong enough to be useful and interesting, even if they can't bring as much to bear on the situation. Its only once you get into tier 4 or lower that you start having real inadequacy problems.

[Ziegander]

Second, assuming your DM allows both tier 1&2, here's some builds that incorporate different goals into them:

Paladin-esque melee:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Rogue-like:
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Shaper X/Unseen Seer Y

Monk:
Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Enlightened Fist +6

If the DM allows ONLY Tier 1 & 2 (which sounds like it might be a strain to convince him of since right now the game is limited strictly to Tier 1 classes only), then none of those builds are valid.

[Godskook]

If the DM allows ONLY Tier 1 & 2 (which sounds like it might be a strain to convince him of since right now the game is limited strictly to Tier 1 classes only), then none of those builds are valid.

The OP said :


so are DM finally read the tier list and did some homework and decided that we all have to play characters of the same tier.

Nowhere has the OP ever said that they have to strictly play classes of any particular tier.

[Ziegander]

You're right, the OP never comes out and definitively says, "all classes that aren't Tier 1 classes are banned." Now, read the rest of the post you're quoting. Would the OP talk about moving non-Tier 1 classes up to Tier 1 power if those classes were allowed to his group? He goes so far as to mention that one of the players wants to play a Sorcerer with the implication being that he wants to but can't.

[Godskook]

You're right, the OP never comes out and definitively says, "all classes that aren't Tier 1 classes are banned." Now, read the rest of the post you're quoting. Would the OP talk about moving non-Tier 1 classes up to Tier 1 power if those classes were allowed to his group? He goes so far as to mention that one of the players wants to play a Sorcerer with the implication being that he wants to be can't.

If homebrew is on the table, then logically, so would optimization builds that manage to bring bad-tier classes up to the minimum tier requirement(Cause you could just 'homebrew' that class progression into a single base class). The Sorcadin, Arcane Monk and Arcane Rogue builds I posted all meet the DM's stated goal criteria, as well as what I can best guess is his intent, to have a party that's balanced within themselves. Well, at least within the duo-tier range, which I argued in my original post was a more appropriate dividing line.

[Wings of Peace]

Every class is now a demilich.

[ILM]

Honestly and with no offense meant, I think your DM is biting off more than he can chew. A party of Tier 1s played as tier 1s will destroy his campaign unless he has an extremely firm grasp of the game, all the monsters, classes, abilities, and how they all work together and against each other. Since he's just discovered the tier list, is insisting everyone play a tier 1, and is suggesting you build tier 1 versions of, say, a fighter and a monk, I'm thinking that's not the case. I strongly suggest you instead try to convince him to set the bar at a far more manageable tier 3.

[kulosle]

so some sense knocking occurred and the DM wants us all to have tier 3 builds. any thing is technically allowed but only minor dips into non tier 3 classes. he's still allowing homebrews that make classes into tier 3. this fixes the majority of the groups problem. there is still a player that wants to play a druid and someone who wants to play a sorcerer. i also showed him the template and prestige class tier system and we'll see what happens with that. so is there a tier 3 druid out there that still has the versatility and flavor of the druid?

[Prime32]

so some sense knocking occurred and the DM wants us all to have tier 3 builds. any thing is technically allowed but only minor dips into non tier 3 classes. he's still allowing homebrews that make classes into tier 3. this fixes the majority of the groups problem. there is still a player that wants to play a druid and someone who wants to play a sorcerer. i also showed him the template and prestige class tier system and we'll see what happens with that. so is there a tier 3 druid out there that still has the versatility and flavor of the druid?Ranger with wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) and/or mystic rangerDr336 + Shooting StarCoV ACFs.

Also "tier 3" and "versatility of the druid" are mutually exclusive. The druid is tier 1 because of its versatility.

[Amphetryon]

so some sense knocking occurred and the DM wants us all to have tier 3 builds. any thing is technically allowed but only minor dips into non tier 3 classes. he's still allowing homebrews that make classes into tier 3. this fixes the majority of the groups problem. there is still a player that wants to play a druid and someone who wants to play a sorcerer. i also showed him the template and prestige class tier system and we'll see what happens with that. so is there a tier 3 druid out there that still has the versatility and flavor of the druid?The Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) variant (scroll down) is as close as you'll get, generally. Part of Tier 1's power lies in its flexibility, so replicating it more closely - like with a Divine Minion templated Spirit Shaman - would end up pushing right up against the boundary of Tier 1, defeating the purpose of looking for something other than a Druid.

Edit: Bah. Swordsaged.

[kulosle]

what is the mystic ranger. all i know about them is they get more spells. what does it give up? can it be taken with the wild shape variant? if so that's probably what he's looking for.

[Amphetryon]

what is the mystic ranger. all i know about them is they get more spells. what does it give up? can it be taken with the wild shape variant? if so that's probably what he's looking for.
Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10830) is a read-only mini-guide to the Mystic Ranger and SotAO.

[ILM]

Alternatively, giving the druid a bard spell progression (caps at level 6, use the bard's spells/day table) should knock him down quite a bit. You could also give him the ranger's animal companion (counts as half his levels) and/or nerf his wild shape. Though at that point the wildshape ranger suggested before would work just as well and be more grounded in existing rules.

[Aquillion]

The idea of a Tier 1 fighter has been attempted before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12116206), though it tends to get slightly on the silly side. I haven't seen a Tier 1 skillmonkey, but enough houserules would probably make it possible.Exalted kind of does this. But of course, Exalted's warriors can swing their sword with enough force to kill half a football field in one swipe (or everyone in a three mile radius, eventually), and Exalted's rogue archetype gets the ability to step through solid doors, retroactively erase people's memory of their existence, and fly.


Probably a better idea would be for all your characters to be gestalt with tier 1 on one side but primarily roll-play the other side.The problem with that is that your power will ultimately depend on using those tier-1 spells to solve problems. If you're unwilling to use them because they don't fit your theme, then you won't really be Tier 1.

[jaybird]

Hmm...does anyone have a link to the other list-caster variants of the Wizard?

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay everyone, here is my list of 'WotC, WotC Affiliates, Pathfinder, and Homebrew classes which are arguably Tier 3 or Very Strong Tier 4 with a good solid schtick or two'.

With these classes, especially the houserule or homebrew ones, some of them have some strange rules associated with them, and might need conversion to 'normal' 3.5e, so caveat emptor and all of that (even though those are free; the pathfinder variants and the rogue, for example, will need backconversion). I'll be listing sources of these classes, and between all of them, you SHOULD be able to get the flavor you want!

With that out of the way, onto the classes!

Bard (Player's Handbook)
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Binder (Tome of Magic, WITHOUT the Online Vestiges)
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Druid, with at least one, possibly more, of several nerfs:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
-note that even with this, this class might need DM buy in for the appropriate spells you choose-

Shaman (Oriental Adventures, possible Tier 2 due to spell access, especially to army obsoleters, DM may need to only allow access to specific spells)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Psychic Rogue (Online, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c )
Wilder (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Ranger (Wildshape variant Ranger, Unearthed Arcana, SRD)

Now for WotC Affiliates and Pathfinder. Note that these are MUCH shakier in their statuses, and my info is dated
Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon, a Dragonlance book, possible Tier 4)
Summoner (Pathfinder)
Alchemist (Pathfinder)
Inquisitor (pathfinder)
Magus (Pathfinder)

Now for the homebrew stuff, I link you to every class which is also a link in this thread (from which I also got much of the inspiration to this post): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

It has a variant of the Paladin, Rogue, Cleric, Druid, Warmage, Swashbuckler, Monk, Barbarian, Soulknife, Marshal, along with several custom designed classes and several classes which were still 'being examined'; if there is a class or a flavor which you prefer, you can probably find something like that in that thread.

[Misery Esquire]

With that said, it would be REALLY hard to turn classes like Barbarians into T1s (how do you make a pure melee class into something that can bug gods for answers, teleport around the world, and summon armies?).


Might Over DM
Make an opposed strength check (arm) against your DM. If you win, you may fiat any 1 (one) thing as an At Will action. Using this ability does not use any Character actions, though the Player may find themselves in a Full Round Action that takes more than 6 seconds. Prerequisities ; No Casting

... Okay, other than jokes, there really isn't a way I can think of. (Slieght of Hand the air out of someone's lungs? I'm sure it's only a 120 DC or something)

[Karoht]

so are DM finally read the tier list and did some homework and decided that we all have to play characters of the same tier. this is not fun for anyone. we tried to ration with him, saying we'd play unoptimized tier 1s (heal bot cleric, blaster wizard) and optimize other classes. but he is determined. so we finally came to a compromise. we can submit ideas for tier 1 versions of other classes so that we are all the same power level. this just sounds like tons of fun. does any one have some fun ideas of how to make classes into tier 1? specifically melee.
also i'm interested in playing a factotum and another wants to play a sorcerer. so does giving the factotum spell progression similar to the archivist, but arcane, make it tier 1? and does giving the sorcerer wizard spell progression bump him up a tier? any other ideas for making classes tier 1's is also good.

I fully respect the players desire to have their choice of character at the table. No question there.

But we all know how Tier 1 parties go. We all know how after a certain point, they just begin to snap the games rules in half, and quite frankly, not a lot of DM's can handle that. Your DM is wise in at least partly admitting (in an odd way) that this is not within his capability, or that of his campaign.

I don't have any suggestions to contribute, but I do have to ask, what Tier did he want you guys to play as? 3? 4?

[JaronK]

Might Over DM
Make an opposed strength check (arm) against your DM. If you win, you may fiat any 1 (one) thing as an At Will action. Using this ability does not use any Character actions, though the Player may find themselves in a Full Round Action that takes more than 6 seconds. Prerequisities ; No Casting

... Okay, other than jokes, there really isn't a way I can think of. (Slieght of Hand the air out of someone's lungs? I'm sure it's only a 120 DC or something)

Get Some Answers: A level 14 or higher Barbarian may, once per day, get fed up with this crap and punch a hole through realities, grabbing any one god by the neck and yanking his head through. He may then demand a single one word answer to any question he desires before shoving the god back through the hole and continuing about his day.

Jump Good: A 5th level or higher Barbarian may, as a full round action, making a jump check. He then travels a number of miles up to the results of the jump check, though he must land in an area with open sky in an unoccupied square (and must take off from the same!). Additionally, the Barbarian never takes falling damage.

Jump Better: Starting at 10th level, a Barbarian may once per day use the Jump Good ability to land on an enemy. He need not see the enemy at the start of the jump, though the enemy must still be in a square with open sky over it. When he lands, the enemy must make a Fort save or die, DC equal to the jump check. If the save is passed, the enemy instead takes 1d6 damage per Barbarian level. Starting at 15th level, anyone within Barbarian Level X 5' must make the save, and the ability may be used twice per day. At 20th level the Barbarian may use this ability at will.

Fling Bears: As a Full Round Action, a Barbarian of 5th level or higher may punch through reality and grab a monster to fight for him. He may fling the monster anywhere within 5' per Barbarian level. This counts as a spell like ability, and the monster must be off the Summon Nature's Ally list appropriate to the Barbarian's level as though the Barbarian where a Druid of the given level (so a 7th level Barbarian could throw any creature off the Summon Nature's Ally 4 list). He may do this once per encounter. The creature then disappears after Barbarian level rounds.

...You get the idea. With enough of these, we could have a hilarious T1 Barbarian.

JaronK

[Misery Esquire]

BY CROM : Become a walking AMF for the next twenty four hours. This field does not effect you.

DESTROYER'S JUMP : Any jump that carries a Barbarian more than 2 miles may now make a +50 circumstance check to break through any rooftop (or floor of a parapet) that he lands on. This may be used against the entire building rather than just the surface, if the Barbarian wishes.

BUTTERFLY EFFECT (Slieght of Hand, Improved Evasion) : A Rogue may now make Slieght of Hand checks against the air. With enough success, he may cause tornados, hurricanes, thunderstorms, mighty gales or a pleasant breeze.

SHOCKWAVE PUNCH [Epic] : A Barbarian may punch the ground, causing a ring of shockwaves to rise around him for 50' in all directions. Anyone or thing hit by this is knocked back until they contact another object. If the object is equal or less than thier current wieght + the Barbarian's Lift Above Head weight, then they are also knocked back. This chain of events may continue until everything manages to be knocked into something heavy enough to stop them. They take 1d6 damage per 10' travelled every time they come into contact with another object.

...No, wait. That one's too strong. I should add a tag...

...There we go. That makes it better

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd take ideas of what classes and skills can do from the Legend RPG...

http://www.gralamin.com/legend.pdf

[navar100]

Why, oh why, oh WHY would your DM want a party of all Tier 1s? I he trying to prove how broken the d20 system can be, or does he just want his players to waltz through every single encounter he cooks up in a couple of levels?

I don't think the tier systems meant to be used this way, but if you want to keep everyone on about the same power level, tier 3 is where it's at. That's where you can fit most character concepts one way or another, and if someone really wants to play something else, the tier 4s won't feel as badly outclassed all the time (they may even be better than tier 3s in their specialty area) and tier 2s can play nicely without gimping themselves too much.

Really, the tier 1s and the tier 5s are the only ones that regularly ruin games; even that can be mitigated by a level cap... If you only allow 2 levels of cleric/wizard/witch/Druid for every 1 level in any other class, for example, you'll find that the tier 1s become much less appealing to play and at least some of their universe-breaking power gets toned down.

What? People still play with Tier 1 and Tier 5 classes? Does the Geneva Convention know about this? We must have a press conference at once to warn everyone of this atrocity!

Bad Wrong Fun! Bad Wrong Fun!

[JaronK]

There's nothing wrong with playing T1s or T5s, but it's pretty hard to force an entire party to be T1s since there's just so few of them.

JaronK

[Aquillion]

I actually had some ideas for making noncasters T1 -- I recall now.

Here's the trick I came up with: Give them talents that just say "you can do this" without explaining how, explicitly noting that players are encouraged to come up with narrative justifications for these actions, but are not required to do so. The description can be any amount of narrative the player wants as long as it produces the end result that the talent they're invoking allows, with no dice rolls, skill checks, additional feats or whatever required -- as long as it only, mechanically, achieves this one end, and it doesn't directly violate established facts about the setting, they can invent whatever powers for their character they want.

For instance: A rogue ability might allow you to instantly travel from your current position to any place within 400 yards as a standard action, with no jump roll. This is not magic. You're just that slick.

If you want, you can describe your character making many small leaps from point to point, scrambling up the wall, squeezing through some narrow bars, finding a secret passage -- whatever. If you do, then you accomplish all that with no dice rolls, no need for other abilities -- as long as it's just traveling to a spot within 400 yards as a standard action, you can do it.

The point is -- in the same way that the Joker is always going to find his way out of prison, your character can always find a way to travel that distance. It's narrative power. Because it's written on your character sheet, you, the player, are entitled to say that this happens.

[kulosle]

thanks for the link to psychic rogue i've been looking for that.

so yeah my dm apparently read another thing about how the tier system isn't really a useful guidlines or something like that. he showed me the thread and it's someone hating on the tier system. well how it turns out is all the fun things. he wants to test to see if the tier 1 classes are truly miles ahead of everyone else. so we came up with two challenges.
1 how low of a level can a party of 4 tier ones kill the tarrasque. one party memeber as as bold to say level six, while i suggested 11. any ideas?
2 we are taking each of the tier 1 classes and putting them against a party of 4 tier 3s or below. he'll make the party and we each make a tier 1 character. i told him that the party could be a higher level then our characters. so we are going to try at different levels. so i got the druid (my favorite) and the party is going to be a healer, a warmage, a CW samurai, and a factotum (one from each tier). it's been for ever that i actually felt the need to optimize a druid. does anyone have the munchikin druid build lying around. i know it involves planar shepard but i don't remember the actual build.
i for one feel like this will be an excellently fun exercise. oh and how what level difference do you think i could be from the party? the gm is okay at optimizing but he's never made anything game breaking.

terms of the fight is a 1000cubic feat arena that you aren't allowed to leave or plane shift. the character/tarrasque start at the opposite corner as the party.

[Malachei]

so are DM finally read the tier list and did some homework and decided that we all have to play characters of the same tier. this is not fun for anyone. we tried to ration with him, saying we'd play unoptimized tier 1s (heal bot cleric, blaster wizard) and optimize other classes. but he is determined. so we finally came to a compromise. we can submit ideas for tier 1 versions of other classes so that we are all the same power level. this just sounds like tons of fun. does any one have some fun ideas of how to make classes into tier 1? specifically melee.
also i'm interested in playing a factotum and another wants to play a sorcerer. so does giving the factotum spell progression similar to the archivist, but arcane, make it tier 1? and does giving the sorcerer wizard spell progression bump him up a tier? any other ideas for making classes tier 1's is also good.

Personally, I think the tier discussions are often causing more harm than good. I dislike the system for labeling characters and stereotyping power levels. I think everybody agrees that a well-designed wizard outclassed a well-designed fighter in every edition of the game (though I can't really speak for 4E). So the first question about using the tier idea would be: What do you need it for?

Do you have an actual game balance issue that comes up in your games? If yes, what is it? Or does your DM just want an excuse for messing with the rules and designing a homebrew system?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well... the tarrasque doesn't have any ranged attacks, or any way to impact fliers... just get your DPR up and you're good... there are several threads in giantitp about the tarrasque, read up on it!

Also, it is weak to summoned Allips.

[Prime32]

thanks for the link to psychic rogue i've been looking for that.

so yeah my dm apparently read another thing about how the tier system isn't really a useful guidlines or something like that. he showed me the thread and it's someone hating on the tier system. well how it turns out is all the fun things. he wants to test to see if the tier 1 classes are truly miles ahead of everyone else. so we came up with two challenges.
1 how low of a level can a party of 4 tier ones kill the tarrasque. one party memeber as as bold to say level six, while i suggested 11. any ideas?
2 we are taking each of the tier 1 classes and putting them against a party of 4 tier 3s or below. he'll make the party and we each make a tier 1 character. i told him that the party could be a higher level then our characters. so we are going to try at different levels. so i got the druid (my favorite) and the party is going to be a healer, a warmage, a CW samurai, and a factotum (one from each tier). it's been for ever that i actually felt the need to optimize a druid. does anyone have the munchikin druid build lying around. i know it involves planar shepard but i don't remember the actual build.
i for one feel like this will be an excellently fun exercise. oh and how what level difference do you think i could be from the party? the gm is okay at optimizing but he's never made anything game breaking.

terms of the fight is a 1000cubic feat arena that you aren't allowed to leave or plane shift. the character/tarrasque start at the opposite corner as the party.The problem is that the tiers measure potential - if you run up to the tarrasque and shoot fireballs then you will die hilariously fast. If you fly above the tarrasque and start spamming death spells from a wand then your victory is just a matter of waiting for it to roll a 1 on its save.

[kulosle]

oh wow lots of good stuff on tarrasque killing. so yeah 6th level for sure. any lower is just rude.

how about the level difference my druid could be from the party and still win?

[Malachei]

I don't think the Tarrasque is a good test for character power level.

[Aquillion]

I don't think the Tarrasque is a good test for character power level.The Terrasque is a really, really bad test for character power level, since a lot of its powers and capabilities are so focused and specific (especially the 'you must use Wish to keep it dead' thing.)

You're better off with some more generic scenarios like the ones in the tier list page. Stuff like:

You must go into a dragon's lair and return with the kingdom's crown, which he keeps on his pile of treasure.

You must go into a necromancer's lair, which he's filled with traps and undead minions, kill him and escape.

An army of orcs is going to attack the city in three days. You must assist in its defense.

One member of the city council is a traitor. You must find out who.

You must deliver a message to the king within 24 hours; his castle is ten-thousand miles away, and is besieged by a hostile army led by an evil Sorcerer.

You must acquire a certain rare ingredient for a sorcerer's potion as quickly as possible -- a piece of a dangerous-sounding monster, which most people believe to be extinct. The sorcerer's rival has sent his seven apprentices to get it first -- and to sabotage you, so you won't succeed.

You must find the crown prince. No one knew his name or where he is except his nursemaid, who is dead; but he is likely in a far-off kingdom. A thousand assassins are hunting for him, and you must protect him from all of those once you find him, until you can escort him back to his kingdom and overthrow the usurper. Oh, yes, and he has a curse: If you don't find him before his 18th birthday -- and don't break the curse, when you do -- he will die. His 18th birthday is in seven days.

Etc, etc, etc. Come up with basic plot concepts, not specific monsters, then figure out how your class will deal with it. If your class is Tier 1, it should give you massive benefits that can rapidly resolve everything like the above (and most other things you could think of like them.)

A party of Tier 5s would find many of the things above basically impossible, and any one Tier 5 character -- while they might be able to help a bit with some -- is going to be useless for a lot of those stories. A party of Tier 1s -- and, in many cases, a single Tier 1 -- could do most of them in a single day with little to no risk, and any Tier 1 character would have huge amounts to contribute.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also Tarrasque is really weak against Slow. As in the spell. But yea, make sure everyone has long duration Flight. Here are a few tarrasque threads. Note, I only chose the ones that mentioned 'allip'...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133281
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144977
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150272
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151667
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162969
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168610
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182385
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192169
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195743

Make sure EVERYONE has signifcant amounts of flight that point. Whether it is just Alter Self into an Avariel, an item that grants flight, air walk, a flying mount (remember, any character at level 7 can have a flying mount...), phantom steed, a purchased creature, items, whatever. Make sure to get some scrolls of summon undead iv...

[dextercorvia]

Also Tarrasque is really weak against Slow.

I think that SR32 says the Tarrasque isn't weak against a 6th level caster's Slow.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, right, forgot... yea, don't use that one.

[kulosle]

so yeah i'm pretty sure there is a spell that lowers SR isn't there? or was it a homebrew, i can't remeber. any who the tarrasque is definitely not being tested. 6th level for sure.

so i'm still making my druid and the GM has finished with the party. he made them level 17 and we can try any level of our character to try and beat them. i'm going to try a level 20 build and just keep moving down and let you know how that goes. i still haven't found the munchkin build i saw before.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh there are several builds that can do it!

And there is stuff like Assay Spell Resistance or True Casting.

Anyway, here are the main handbooks for Tier 1 classes (note, StP Erudite isn't really mentioned in the psion handbooks... look at wizard and the main psion stuff, you'll figure it out...):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3545.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8342
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11474
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13347
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961

This is a WHOLE LOT to take in... a huuuge amount, more than you can do in one sitting. I would say glance, skim, look over these, familiarize yourself with the basics... Tier 1 classes are complex. Good luck!

[ericgrau]

so are DM finally read the tier list and did some homework and decided that we all have to play characters of the same tier. this is not fun for anyone. we tried to ration with him, saying we'd play unoptimized tier 1s (heal bot cleric, blaster wizard) and optimize other classes. but he is determined. so we finally came to a compromise. we can submit ideas for tier 1 versions of other classes so that we are all the same power level. this just sounds like tons of fun. does any one have some fun ideas of how to make classes into tier 1? specifically melee.
also i'm interested in playing a factotum and another wants to play a sorcerer. so does giving the factotum spell progression similar to the archivist, but arcane, make it tier 1? and does giving the sorcerer wizard spell progression bump him up a tier? any other ideas for making classes tier 1's is also good.

This is why optimization discussions harm games and ruin everybody's fun. Even controller wizards, self-buffing battle clerics, etc. don't tend to break the game. Just play nice and don't use any cheesy tricks like DMM persist. If that's not convincing enough for your DM I have a PrC to give spells to melee: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220582. It's slightly on the strong side but won't hold up to heavily optimized casters. That's the key, though, just don't use stupid cheesy tricks and this isn't usually a huge problem anyway, especially not before level 10. Maybe at level 15. But then PCs are so ludicrously rich that any PC with all 8s in mental stats can still buy almost any magic he could want. I had an epic level fighter that might have been the most versatile party member for random nonsense, plus he could fly, walk through walls, etc., etc., all through items.

[dextercorvia]

Oh there are several builds that can do it!

And there is stuff like Assay Spell Resistance or True Casting.

Anyway, here are the main handbooks for Tier 1 classes (note, StP Erudite isn't really mentioned in the psion handbooks... look at wizard and the main psion stuff, you'll figure it out...):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3545.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8342
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11474
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13347
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961

This is a WHOLE LOT to take in... a huuuge amount, more than you can do in one sitting. I would say glance, skim, look over these, familiarize yourself with the basics... Tier 1 classes are complex. Good luck!

Sure, but at ECL 6, True Casting grants a +10, Arcane Mastery lets you take 10, that only gets you to 26. An extra 6 effective levels requires a significant investment at that level -- and would be a highly specialized build. Unless you are building to wreck the Tarrasque, there would be no reason to further increase your penetration check.

[Gavinfoxx]

This is why optimization discussions harm games and ruin everybody's fun. Even controller wizards, self-buffing battle clerics, etc. don't tend to break the game. Just play nice and don't use any cheesy tricks like DMM persist.

Uhm... I have seen discussion of appropriate optimization levels and appropriate tier levels actually dramatically IMPROVE some games I am in. It has to be done in the right way, as in, stuff that can help the DM tell a story, and the DM has to not, yaknow, misunderstand the purpose of those two concepts. But two games I am in, the tier system and restrictions on what tiers you can play has encouraged players to play classes that normally don't get very much play time in each group, and it has encouraged DMs to not be afraid of particular subsystems, either, since they have a litmus test of balance...

[Aquillion]

Well, yes, that DM is being a bit too careful with it. In general, up to a two tier difference is not a problem as long as the players make some effort not to step on each other's toes.

[ericgrau]

Uhm... I have seen discussion of appropriate optimization levels and appropriate tier levels actually dramatically IMPROVE some games I am in. It has to be done in the right way, as in, stuff that can help the DM tell a story, and the DM has to not, yaknow, misunderstand the purpose of those two concepts. But two games I am in, the tier system and restrictions on what tiers you can play has encouraged players to play classes that normally don't get very much play time in each group, and it has encouraged DMs to not be afraid of particular subsystems, either, since they have a litmus test of balance...

Proper optimization is fine. That's why I like the bargaining to play blaster casters even less. The problem is with limitations on what you can play, not with opening up more options. In games with things like DMM persist that make other options completely obsolete, you're actually limiting options because the obsolete options are no longer practical. Just as banning casters is also limiting options. Creating a situation where this is necessary and then banning them is a patchwork solution at best. Most casual games operate well enough with a varied mix, especially with players who have never even heard of anything else, but then once people find out about and start pulling tricks all that falls apart.

I've been playing a Pathfinder game where spell resistance, high saves and such has cropped up a lot lately. The casters end up playing support to the melee and they've been shining a lot, since in Pathfinder there's even less ways around it. Especially when we don't know what's coming. The support is still effective, but it's been even more of a team game.