Looking for a 2.5E D&D type system

[Talyn]

My current gaming group is wrapping up its current campaign, and sometime in the relatively near future it will be my turn to pick a system and run a campaign.

I've been feeling a yen for an old-school style game - I started playing AD&D in 1994, and I am thinking that I would enjoy running the relative simplicity of an AD&D game.

However, there are a number of things that I like about 3.X and 4E, as well, and I think that my players (who by now are fully accustomed to those systems) would want a little more flexibility than a straight up AD&D game could give them.

Are there any (preferably free) systems out there that are effectively hybrids between 2nd Edition AD&D and 3.X?

[MeeposFire]

What sort of restrictions are you worried about. For instance if you don't think they would like racial class restrictions remove them and let a dwarf be a paladin (ditto level restrictions). If you liked the at will power idea from 4e I have created a rule for mages to make at will magic blasts that is no more powerful than the weapons they already can use. So what do you think they would want to see from future editions?

[Talyn]

Specifically, what I like about 3.x which isn't in AD&D?

- Ascending attack bonuses and armor (no more THAC0)
- Fortitude/Reflex/Will instead of the bewildering array of saves
- no racial restrictions on class and level
- some sort of way to get "better" at skills as you progress in levels

I like the idea of feats, too, though one of my goals in this upcoming campaign is simplicity of character generation, so I'm willing to forgo those (using, instead, weapon and nonweapon proficiencies from AD&D) in the interest of simplicity.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

What do you like specifically about AD&D? Because it sounds like your best solution is to start with Pathfinder and then hack it backwards.

edit: I don't know what you're looking for, so I'll just throw some ideas out, based on my own little thought experiment.

Simplify multiclassing? Pathfinder has variant XP tables (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) and Unearthed Arcana has Gestalt characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). Just use the Slow, Medium, and Fast tables for characters advancing in 1, 2, or 3 classes respectively.
Advanced Player's Guide has a set of alternate Favored Class Bonuses for each core race (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races). If a character is advancing in one or more classes for which his race gets a bonus, he automatically gains those bonuses.
Back to Unearthed Arcana, we have Alternative Skill Systems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm) and Weapon Group feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm). (You might substitute Pathfinder's weapon groups from the Fighter's weapon training class feature.)
Pruning the feat tree down to the equivalent of WPs and NWPs is a lot of time-consuming work, but it is doable. You may want to give certain "basic" feats like Combat Expertise and Power Attack as bonuses.
You can cut down on a lot of math by allowing characters to take all of their iterative attacks at their full bonus.

[LibraryOgre]

Castles and Crusades has most of that, but it's not going to have the full-on flexibility of Skills and Powers, with the ability to custom-build your race and class. You might also look at Hackmaster... while the basic game only has 4 classes and 4 races, you can do quite a bit with differing character builds. However, it is a lot lower power than 3.x.

I'd personally look at combining C&C with Skills and Powers.

[Talyn]

I've heard good things about Castles and Crusades, but I can't seem to find a free version anywhere. Is there one, or will I have to buy it?

[Knaight]

I've been feeling a yen for an old-school style game - I started playing AD&D in 1994, and I am thinking that I would enjoy running the relative simplicity of an AD&D game.

However, there are a number of things that I like about 3.X and 4E, as well, and I think that my players (who by now are fully accustomed to those systems) would want a little more flexibility than a straight up AD&D game could give them.

Are there any (preferably free) systems out there that are effectively hybrids between 2nd Edition AD&D and 3.X?

This is a little bit off, but it might be worth looking into. There is a free system called Warrior Rogue and Mage (http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/) that combines old school sensibilities with very modern game design. Its elegant, its fast, it has things like skills and the ability to customize characters heavily instead of following a class with minimal options, and it is a wonderful system. However, it isn't technically D&D. That said, it feels and plays like early D&D, while still being accessible from a modern background.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I can second WR&M as a very accessible system with a lot of potential, if you're not totally attached to D&D.

[MeeposFire]

Specifically, what I like about 3.x which isn't in AD&D?

- Ascending attack bonuses and armor (no more THAC0)
- Fortitude/Reflex/Will instead of the bewildering array of saves
- no racial restrictions on class and level
- some sort of way to get "better" at skills as you progress in levels

I like the idea of feats, too, though one of my goals in this upcoming campaign is simplicity of character generation, so I'm willing to forgo those (using, instead, weapon and nonweapon proficiencies from AD&D) in the interest of simplicity.

Take 2e and then do this

1. Whenever you would gain a thac0 point treat is as a +1 BAB. So Thac0 19 is BAB+1. Take AC and invert it. AC 8 is two points down so it now becomes AC12. Now do rolls like 3e does it. It may require some work on your part but not as much as you might think and you can even make a quick table that says 19=+1, 18=+2 etc.

2. This one is a bit trickier but can be dealt with. Choose three of the saves that thematically fit fort/ref/will. For instance you could choose death=fort, wands=reflex, spells=will (or some other combo the choice is yours). Another choice would be to fold certain saves into others. For instance do you need rod, staff, wand or could it be put into spells? In this option you would put all those saves under spells and remove wands/staffs/wands. Just combo thematically and choose which number to use.

third option is to do what the starter sets did and just have one saving throw number for everything (the number happened to be for spells but it was not mentioned and it was used for all saves).

3. Just remove them as they are actually a thematic restriction rather tan a game balance restriction.

4. You could either use the NWP from skills and powers or just increase the rate of NWP to one or more per level and then the players could use them to put extra slots in a "skill" under the standard rules.

5. For feats you could increase weapon proficiencies just like I said for NWP and then use them for style bonuses, weapon of choice, armor specializations, etc. If you want some new stuff take some feats in 3.x and port them in. Many will work fine with only minor tinkering.

This is just an idea if you like the basic 2e chassis.

[Talyn]

4. You could either use the NWP from skills and powers or just increase the rate of NWP to one or more per level and then the players could use them to put extra slots in a "skill" under the standard rules.

5. For feats you could increase weapon proficiencies just like I said for NWP and then use them for style bonuses, weapon of choice, armor specializations, etc. If you want some new stuff take some feats in 3.x and port them in. Many will work fine with only minor tinkering.


I can't believe I didn't think of that. That's brilliant! Also, thank you to those who pointed out WR&M, I've got it downloaded and ready to rock.

[Kenneth]

Specifically, what I like about 3.x which isn't in AD&D?

- Ascending attack bonuses and armor (no more THAC0)
- Fortitude/Reflex/Will instead of the bewildering array of saves
- no racial restrictions on class and level
- some sort of way to get "better" at skills as you progress in levels

I like the idea of feats, too, though one of my goals in this upcoming campaign is simplicity of character generation, so I'm willing to forgo those (using, instead, weapon and nonweapon proficiencies from AD&D) in the interest of simplicity.

Just take their THAC0 and do teh simple math of Subtracing 20 from it (in teh case of teh warrior sub classes you ust give them a +1 every level) so a cleric would go 1st-3rd+0 4th-6th+2 etc while a theif would go 1st-2nd +0 3rd-4th+1 etc

narrow the saves down to fort=death magic Ref=breath weapon and will=spells

no racial restrioncs were something that you coudl do away as 2nd ed made it pretty clear that all rules were optional, ive played with elven paldisn before. its not so game breaking or anythnig

and.. uhh what?? there is a way to increase your skills.. though honeslt when you succed 85% of the time form levels1 onwards.. are you looking for a 95% successrate?

[MeeposFire]

Just remember even if you convert thac0 into BAB that you still handle number of attacks and the like as 2e not 3e.

[LibraryOgre]

I've heard good things about Castles and Crusades, but I can't seem to find a free version anywhere. Is there one, or will I have to buy it?

You'd have to buy it, but it's worth it.