3.P Making duelist work

[stormtemplar]

So I was looking at the duelist prestige class, and it really looks like a lot of fun from a fluff perspective. The group I'm playing with is going to be a bunch of novices, so I highly doubt anyone will be optimized much at all, so a duelist optimized to it's max potential will probably be the equal of a higher tier class/prestige class.

So what are some good ways to pull this off? I though using it in a melee focused bard build might work, also possibly a fighter build. Any ideas?

[A_S]

I believe the standard advice in this situation is "be a swashbuckler instead."

[stormtemplar]

That doesn't happen to be a core class. Where can I find it, and could I get some help with it?

[Big Fau]

That doesn't happen to be a core class. Where can I find it, and could I get some help with it?

Complete Warrior, and the best recommendation is to go Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16, taking the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel) and the Two-Weapon Fighting feats in Core.

And, if you can, the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin).

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

if youre talking about pathfinder Duelist....

Rogue (scout archetype) is generally considered the best entry, with a possible (but generally unnecessary) dip into fighter for a couple levels.

I suggest you use a scimitar and use the Dervish Dance feat. (it allows the scimitar to be treated as a piercing weapon for the duelist abilities, and also gives you DEX to damage.)

use the scout's charge (level 4). Later, scout skirmish ability (level 8) with Spring attack (which by RAW is NOT allowed under PF, but no DM I've played with knows this) for sneak attack damage. this also synergizes well with some of the Duelist class features. (enhanced Mobility and Acrobatic charge, to be exact)

it makes you a mobile, decent damage dealing (weapon+sneak attack+DEX+ Duelist level) fighter with skill points. If you play right, you wont be around for retaliation. If you are, use your elaborate parry if you must to deflect an attack or two, then get out. Honestly though, you should be all right regardless.

[Krazzman]

Remember picking up shadow blade strike? (Not sure if thats the exact name) it let's you sneak attack against concealment (still not complete concealment).

For the Half elf, there is a racial class bonus on bluff (feinting) that you might find interresting.

Hope this helps

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Remember picking up shadow blade strike? (Not sure if thats the exact name) it let's you sneak attack against concealment (still not complete concealment).

For the Half elf, there is a racial class bonus on bluff (feinting) that you might find interresting.

Hope this helps

you mean shadow strike.

As for the half elf variant favored class bonus for rogues... yeah, that is +1/2 level to feint and gather info checks, and it stacks nicely with the Rogue Spy Archetype which is +1/2 level to all bluff checks except feinting.

I made an effective half elf rogue (spy archetype) with a one level wizard dip, used the half elf skill focus on bluff, got the viper familiar for more bluff, using item creation rules, he commissioned a mask of bluffing, +5. This guy had a 13 charisma, but a +21 bluff by level 3. By no means completely optimized, but plenty fun.

[Krazzman]

you mean shadow strike.

As for the half elf variant favored class bonus for rogues... yeah, that is +1/2 level to feint and gather info checks, and it stacks nicely with the Rogue Spy Archetype which is +1/2 level to all bluff checks except feinting.

I made an effective half elf rogue (spy archetype) with a one level wizard dip, used the half elf skill focus on bluff, got the viper familiar for more bluff, using item creation rules, he commissioned a mask of bluffing, +5. This guy had a 13 charisma, but a +21 bluff by level 3. By no means completely optimized, but plenty fun.

I know, I suggested A scimitar and Dervish dance to you if I recollect it the right way ;D

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Remember picking up shadow blade strike? (Not sure if thats the exact name) it let's you sneak attack against concealment (still not complete concealment).

For the Half elf, there is a racial class bonus on bluff (feinting) that you might find interresting.

Hope this helps

you mean shadow strike.

As for the half elf variant favored class bonus for rogues... yeah, that is +1/2 level to feint and gather info checks, and it stacks nicely with the Rogue Spy Archetype which is +1/2 level to all bluff checks except feinting.

I made an effective half elf rogue (spy archetype) with a one level wizard dip, used the half elf skill focus on bluff, got the viper familiar for more bluff, using item creation rules, he commissioned a mask of bluffing, +5. This guy had a 13 charisma, but a +21 bluff by level 3. By no means completely optimized, but plenty fun.

[Curious]

Your build should probably look something like this:

Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue 3/ (Master of Many Styles) Monk 1/ Duelist 10/ Rogue 3.

This assumes Fractional BAB so as not to screw you over.

Take Daring Outlaw so as not to lose SA dice, as well as Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance for Dex to hit and Damage, and Two-Weapon Fighting. The Duelists parry ability requires you to sacrifice one attack while full attacking with a light or one-handed weapon, but the Duelists other class ability, precise strike, requires you not to attack with a weapon in your other hand in order to gain its benefit, so normally you must lose one of your precious attacks to use your primary class ability. However, the 1 level dip of Monk gives you IUS for free, and TWF allows you to make another attack with your off hand, using your fist as the weapon. If you sacrifice the attack made by your fist, you not only get your parry for the round, you also circumvent the wording of precise strike by not attacking with another weapon that turn.

The second thing that makes this build work is style feats. MoMS Monk gets you a bonus style feat, and allows you to use two styles at once. I recommend Crane and Kirin style (or Knowledge Devotion if you can get it) so that you get bonuses to hit and damage for your intelligence, and so you can auto-cancel yet another attack every round.

You are also going to want to grab Assassins Stance from ToB for an extra two SA dice, and Shadow Strike for SA against concealment.

Always fight defensively.

[gorfnab]

Here are two Duelist builds I came up with a while ago based on fighting defensively.

Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.


Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Duelist
12. Duelist - Combat Reflexes
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Duelist

If you can't get or don't want EWP: Broadblade Shortsword, move Combat Reflexes to 3rd level and add Snap Kick (best option) or Improved Combat Expertise (decent option) to 12th level