bard/dervish [3.5]

[kulosle]

so i've heard several bad things about this. for one i've heard that dervish is a bad class. which i don't quite understand? i understand that its feat starved, but it is listed as a +1 in the prestige class tier system. and the arguement for bards being a bad dervish is that it makes the build MAD, but doesn't the Slippers of Battle Dancing fix that. in fact doesn't that make the dervish less MAD then it was without the bard? i've heard that then you have a very poor fort, doesn't two level dip into paladin fix that? isn't cha the easiest ability to optimize? it just sounds like a match made in heaven.

[Darrin]

so i've heard several bad things about this. for one i've heard that dervish is a bad class. which i don't quite understand? i understand that its feat starved, but it is listed as a +1 in the prestige class tier system.


Almost everything important that Dervish offers can be gotten via two feats instead: Oversize TWF (which still allows Power Attack) and Travel Devotion (which doesn't cause fatigue). It requires 4 weak/underpowered feats to get into, and bards don't get any bonus feats, so they pay a heavy feat tax just to get in unless they multiclass.

Dervish was pretty decent early in 3.5 when there weren't so many sourcebooks out and thus so many other ways to move + full attack. Nowadays, there are much more effective ways to do the same thing.



i've heard that then you have a very poor fort, doesn't two level dip into paladin fix that? isn't cha the easiest ability to optimize? it just sounds like a match made in heaven.

Bard + Paladin go very well together, particularly when you add Champions of Valor (Initiate of Milil, Smite to Song, etc.) and Ordained Champion from Complete Champion (convert turn undead -> smite -> bardic music). Adding Dervish would probably just weaken the build with too many non-bard/non-paladin levels.

[Treblain]

Discounting dervish's power level in and of itself, dervish doesn't advance bardic music or spellcasting. That means that all you really get from bard that contributes to a dervish is the ranks in Perform (Dance) and maybe Snowflake Wardance. Bards aren't even proficient in scimitars, right? If you're making a melee build using dervish, bard is not a good base for it.

[gorfnab]

The problem with Dervish builds is getting a source of extra damage. Scout is great for this since Skirmish activates when you move. Bard can get you a small damage boost with Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration but it's not as effective. The Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook) has some information that may help you make a Bard based Dervish if you must.

Here is a basic Dervish Build I have had some minor success with.

Human Scout 5/ Ranger 2/ Dervish 10/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge or regular Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (decent as usual), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Improved Buckler Defense (nice AC boost, take a few levels earlier if necessary), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), Flay Foe, or Nemesis (great for Arcane Hunter ACF)

The last level of Dervish can be dumped if necessary (A Thousand Cuts is 1/day anyways) for a level of Whirling Frenzy Pounce Barbarian (take the Barbarian level at level 8 before entering Dervish). This then means you could take Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy) as your 18th level feat (or at 12 or 15 if you move Swift Hunter and GTWF around).

[kulosle]

okay that actually all makes sense. i think that i still would try a bard dervish build given the chance. and i have read the dervish handbook and that's why i made this thread. i just looked over the ordained champion and wow that actually makes me want to play a paladin. thanks for the advice playground.