Str and Dex dmg bonus, how they apply to off hand damage? (PF/3.5)

[Griffin]

Yesterday a friend of mine and myself were discussing our upcoming characters (his thiefling scout/ranger/cleric and my drow noble rogue/fighter/invisible blade) and a question came up when I was selecting feats, the rule about off hand damage came up, I choosed the drow fighter variant (Drows of the Underdark) which leaves you apply your dex modifier as damage instead of your str when your enemy is flat footed, however, when you attack with an off hand, your str bonus for damage is halved, does that happen too with dex?

Our current set of rules is Pathfinder but the DM for that campaign accepted to let us use 3.5 things (feats and variants mostly), my drow is Rogue 4 Fighter 1 Invisible Blade 3 (I used a conversion of the invisible blade prestige class thats focus on daggers) with 2 weapon fighting and improved 2 weapon fighting (daggers)

I need to know this because if it does happen like that, then the feat double slice should work the same with dex as with str, however, something tells me it doesn't, since the rule of the off hand damage just mentions str, not dex (even in the more updated versions in PF), your advise will be greatly appreciated

[erikun]

This is one of the issues with having such a large system; it is quite natural that one forgotten rule or class feature would interact oddly with some other remote parts of the system, and without any official ruling/indication of what was "intended" to happen.

Most likely, the ACF was just intended to replace Strength with Dexterity for dealing damage in melee, and thus, that the damage bonus with an off-hand weapon would still be halved. This is probably RAI, unless there is something in Drows of the Underdark that would indicate otherwise.

That said, the "half STR damage with offhand weapon" is not something that I like much anyways, and as a DM I would allow full DEX-bonus damage to both weapons. It would be up to your DM how to handle the situation, though. (Note that hitting someone flat-footed with two weapons will be quite tricky if you aren't regularly invisible.)

[Griffin]

This is one of the issues with having such a large system; it is quite natural that one forgotten rule or class feature would interact oddly with some other remote parts of the system, and without any official ruling/indication of what was "intended" to happen.

Most likely, the ACF was just intended to replace Strength with Dexterity for dealing damage in melee, and thus, that the damage bonus with an off-hand weapon would still be halved. This is probably RAI, unless there is something in Drows of the Underdark that would indicate otherwise.

That said, the "half STR damage with offhand weapon" is not something that I like much anyways, and as a DM I would allow full DEX-bonus damage to both weapons. It would be up to your DM how to handle the situation, though. (Note that hitting someone flat-footed with two weapons will be quite tricky if you aren't regularly invisible.)

Yes, thats why I added the Invisible Blade prestige class, a feinted opponent is flat footed, and an IB lvl 5 can feint as a swift action, right now as level 3 I can feint as movement tough, not that good but helps a bit

Thanks for your advise, anyone else have more to add?

[Tenno Seremel]

I think using Dex instead of your Str means exactly that for this purpose your Dex counts as Str. For all good and bad that's applicable.

[Keld Denar]

No. The rules state that bonus damage from Str is halved. Thats bonus damage from Str only. If you have +Dex to damage, such as with Shadow Blade, Champion of Corillion, or the Drow Fighter ACF you mentioned, it is dex to damage...period. You don't get .5x +Dex to damage with offhands, and you don't get 1.5x +Dex to damage with a 2hander. You don't get .5x Int to damage when you duel wield as a Swashbuckler, you get full +Int to damage with both hands. Same with Dex.

[Tenno Seremel]

If you add Dex it is not affected as it is another bonus. However if you substitute Str with Dex then it does, because it replaces Str.

[Keld Denar]

If you use Con instead of Dex for your AC bonus (such as Deepwarden), are you still affected by the Max Dex Bonus of your armor? No. Same with Str and damage.

[Tenno Seremel]

I think logically you should unless specified otherwise. Well, that's my line of reasoning :}

[sonofzeal]

If you use Con instead of Dex for your AC bonus (such as Deepwarden), are you still affected by the Max Dex Bonus of your armor? Yes. Same with Str and damage.
Fixed that for you. This point has been argued to death, with consensus landing firmly on "yes". I assumed "no" when I first read Deepwarden too, but FAQ, Sage, CustServe, and more importantly CharOp consensus was clear. You'll find yourself in the minority on this one, my friend.


(edit) LGCS, page 37, makes it explicit. Yes, Deepwardens are limited by the Max Dex Bonus of armor even though they're using Con)

[Elfinor]

Yes, thats why I added the Invisible Blade prestige class, a feinted opponent is flat footed, and an IB lvl 5 can feint as a swift action, right now as level 3 I can feint as movement tough, not that good but helps a bit

Thanks for your advise, anyone else have more to add?
Just an additional note: By RAW a feinted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) opponent is not flat footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted). They are denied their DEX bonus to AC, which is not the same thing.

If your DM is nice then he might house rule that the ACF also works on 'denied DEX bonus to AC' opponents (like Sudden Strike) in addition to flat footed ones. I would let it happen...

[Pilo]

In that case, (ie Drow fighter variant), it's precision damage, so the rule is the same as for sneak attack. You don't half your dexterity bonus to damages in that case.

[Griffin]

Just an additional note: By RAW a feinted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) opponent is not flat footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted). They are denied their DEX bonus to AC, which is not the same thing.

If your DM is nice then he might house rule that the ACF also works on 'denied DEX bonus to AC' opponents (like Sudden Strike) in addition to flat footed ones. I would let it happen...

Yes, you are right, I think I just misunderstood that, however I can still add a feat (Surprising Riposte, Drows of the Undedark) to solve that problem

So, dex damage is precision damage? that makes sense

[sonofzeal]

So, dex damage is precision damage? that makes sense
Only if the source of the Dex damage says so, though. Again, see Deepwardens and their bizarre "Max Con Bonus" status. If you're substituting one stat for another, by default the new bonus is subject to the same restrictions as the old one unless otherwise specified. If all it says is that you use your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus, then it's not precision damage, it does still hurt Undead/Constructs/etc (many creature types are immune to precision damage), but you do have that 0.5x Dex on the off-hand.

That said, without DotU in front of me, I can neither confirm nor deny the specific wording. If it says you lose Str bonus to damage and instead gain precision damage equal to your Dex, then you get the full amount on every attack but get nerfed hard by precision-immune creatures.

[Drelua]

Here's the exact wording:
when attacking a flat-footed opponent within 30 feet, you can add your Dexterity bonus (if any) as a competence bonus on weapon damage rolls.

As you can see, it isn't precision damage and it doesn't replace strength, it simply adds dexterity onto your damage as a competence bonus, so you add both strength and dexterity to the attack.

[Keld Denar]

With that wording, it definitely would NOT be halved for your offhand.

[Griffin]

ok, its not precision damage is a competence bonus, does competence bonus are halved as str dmg?

Another thing that came up while doing this question, using surprising riposte that after feint and damage give the opponet the flat footed condition, when you have 2 weapon fighting, does the first attack enters as flat footed too? or only the rest of the attacks in your turn?

Consider I'm feinting as a move action or swift action (Invisible blade ability)

[sonofzeal]

ok, its not precision damage is a competence bonus, does competence bonus are halved as str dmg?
No, because it isn't replacing strength. It would if it was, but it ain't so it won't.