Metamaneuver Feats [Sword Techniques for TOB, 3.5]

[Moose Man]

Hello Homebrewers! Yes, it is time again to draw you unceremoniously into my twisted mind-thoughts. :smallamused: Have Fun!

How Metamaneuver feats beganI recently was reading "Mahou Sensei Negima!" and I noticed that Setsuna (Master of Shinmei-ryū school) was using abilities very similar to the tome of battle maneuvers. I took note of it, but didn't really think of the possibilities. one move of hers really struck me as two different moves, linked into one power (Flashing Sun/Emerald Razor). This got me thinking: "Hmmm, Martial Adepts don't really enough diversity. Wait a second, didn't Psionics have a feat to address this issue?" I looked up the Linked Power (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1779-linked-power.html) feat. That was close to what I was pursuing, but not quite there yet. Let's use the Flashing Sun/Emerald Razor combo as an example.
Initiate attack!
Emerald razor modifies attack to Touch Attack.
Attack Hits!

Initiate attack number 2 (caused by flashing sun)!
Emerald razor modifies attack to Touch Attack.
Attack Misses!

My thoughts flowed from there to enhancing the maneuvers even farther, via feats similar to metamagic and metapsionic feats. However, metamagic feats increase the level of the spells while metapsionic feats increase pp spent and expend your psionic focus.

Therefore, I have several questions on how to implement these feats. First, what should the cost be for using these Feats? how should other metamaneuver feats interact with the Linked metamaneuver feat (do they affect both the linked maneuvers? or do they affect only one?)? What are some suggestions for metamaneuver feats?

[dspeyer]

Sounds a lot like the Strikewright (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10120992#post10120992)'s "enhancements".

[Curious]

Before I even read anything, I have had this exact same idea. I was going to call them metaphysical feats.

Anyways, I think a metaphysical feat should be free to apply to a maneuver, but after the meta'd maneuver is used the maneuver cannot be recovered for a certain number of rounds, say, 3 rounds for a maximized effect.

[Kyuu Himura]

I like this idea, I have had it a few times, but I can't wrap my head around how to make it work...

Good luck, I will be looking at this thread closely.

[Seerow]

The real question is how to balance it. Unfortunately, with maneuvers you can't use the metamagic feat method of raising the maneuver level, as this means nothing to the initiator. Any method I can think of comes back to slowing down recovery rates, or making the maneuver unrecoverable, which is a lot of book keeping.

I guess you could go the X/day enhancement route.

[Fortuna]

No real mechanical input, but I don't like the word 'metamaneuver'. It's long and clunky. How about "technique"? Or "flair"? Or something else, anyway.

Anyway, idea on cost. Techniques are not standalone: rather, they are part of a combination of maneuvers which, with your additional training, you can cause to work together. A technique, when you take the feat, gets one or more "build-up" maneuvers selected. You must use those maneuvers in order in successive rounds to use the technique, and Martial Lore can identify when you're building up to a technique. Moreover, the sum of their levels cannot exceed the level of the modified maneuver.

[NeoSeraphi]

How about something like metapsionic feats, where to use a metamaneuver feat, you must expend your stance, and it has to be a stance of the discipline of the maneuver you're enhancing. (This effectively prevents metamaneuver stacking, as you can't expend your stance more than once per round)

This would obviously be in addition to whatever slow-down recovery rate you use, but it would help balance the whole thing.

[Calanon]

The real question is how to balance it. Unfortunately, with maneuvers you can't use the metamagic feat method of raising the maneuver level, as this means nothing to the initiator. Any method I can think of comes back to slowing down recovery rates, or making the maneuver unrecoverable, which is a lot of book keeping.

I guess you could go the X/day enhancement route.

There is always the cool down method like someone else mentions :smallsmile:

I'm not to knowledgeable about ToB (Melee fighters bore me :smallannoyed:) so I have no idea how much that would effect them in terms of effectiveness, nor do I have an idea of what the "metamaneuvers" in question would perform. OP should show us some of his/her ideas

[Tvtyrant]

How about something like metapsionic feats, where to use a metamaneuver feat, you must expend your stance, and it has to be a stance of the discipline of the maneuver you're enhancing. (This effectively prevents metamaneuver stacking, as you can't expend your stance more than once per round)

This would obviously be in addition to whatever slow-down recovery rate you use, but it would help balance the whole thing.

Or you could make it so they can't use another manuever of the same type for a certain number of terms. So if you use a strike you have to cool down like a dragon breathe.

[Dante & Vergil]

I say expend more than one maneuver when using meta-maneuvers, and have a restriction of what level can be enhanced by the feat. Other than that, I really like dspeyer's method of doing this, but for any martial initiator to learn, or at least use the cooldown mechanic that's already been mentioned.

[absolmorph]

Perhaps a second readied maneuver of at least a certain level becomes unreadied when the feat is used.

[Fortuna]

The biggest issue that I see with expending other slots is that for a Crusader, that's barely a restriction at all, particularly at high levels. If you get it back in a round or two, why do you care? A top-level crusader can spam level 8 or 9 maneuvers all day long, so there's no real hindrance. Swordsages are similar, in that they get enough maneuvers to be able to laugh it off in anything but an endurance fight.

This is why I think something time-based is probably the way to go: that is to say, cooldowns, power-up times or combos. The issue with cooldowns is that it allows for INSANE SUPERNOVA, which makes them either too good or, if they're balanced on that assumption, not good enough. Hence, power-up times or combos seem to me to be the way to go, possibly with stance expenditure built in.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This is why I think something time-based is probably the way to go: that is to say, cooldowns, power-up times or combos. The issue with cooldowns is that it allows for INSANE SUPERNOVA, which makes them either too good or, if they're balanced on that assumption, not good enough. Hence, power-up times or combos seem to me to be the way to go, possibly with stance expenditure built in.

Combos won't really work either, or the poor Crusader, with his haphazard recovery mechanic, can never be sure he'll get off any metamaneuver at all, let alone the one he wants.

Perhaps every Strike or Boost used (whether successful or not) gives a point of Technique. Technique can be spent to power metamaneuvers, and expires at the end of the encounter (maybe allowing either a small portion to be maintained, or starting every encounter with a small handful of technique appropriate for 1-2 meta maneuvers).

[Cieyrin]

Combos won't really work either, or the poor Crusader, with his haphazard recovery mechanic, can never be sure he'll get off any metamaneuver at all, let alone the one he wants.

Perhaps every Strike or Boost used (whether successful or not) gives a point of Technique. Technique can be spent to power metamaneuvers, and expires at the end of the encounter (maybe allowing either a small portion to be maintained, or starting every encounter with a small handful of technique appropriate for 1-2 meta maneuvers).

Building on that, say you can have a pool with a max equal to your IL, the pool starting at 0 at the beginning of the encounter, and each maneuver expended builds up your pool, as you setup to use your special technique. Higher level maneuvers provide more points (let's say half the level of the maneuver, rounded up, so 1st-2nd provide 1, 3rd-4th provide 2, etc.), since higher level initiators should get better at getting their techniques off. You may even want to link certain metamaneuvers with certain schools, which rewards you for setting up techniques related to them with bonus tech points.

Makes me think of Iron Heroes' Weapon Master class and its token pool, which they build up by attacking with their favored weapon.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Building on that, say you can have a pool with a max equal to your IL, the pool starting at 0 at the beginning of the encounter, and each maneuver expended builds up your pool, as you setup to use your special technique. Higher level maneuvers provide more points (let's say half the level of the maneuver, rounded up, so 1st-2nd provide 1, 3rd-4th provide 2, etc.), since higher level initiators should get better at getting their techniques off. You may even want to link certain metamaneuvers with certain schools, which rewards you for setting up techniques related to them with bonus tech points.

Makes me think of Iron Heroes' Weapon Master class and its token pool, which they build up by attacking with their favored weapon.


I really like this, actually. It allows you to better scale meta-maneuvers with higher point costs, as maybe maneuvers give 1/3 or 1/2 their level in points, with maybe a -1 point cost for using a school's favored metamaneuvers (or, more preferably, a metamaneuver's favored schools).

You could also have school-specific meta-maneuvers, which would be pretty awesome. For example...this probably is to specific, but the idea is sound.

Reverberations of Stone [Metamaneuver]
Requirements: 2 Stone Dragon maneuvers
Effect: When you use a Stone Dragon maneuver that ignores a target's Damage Reduction or Hardness, you may expend 2 points of Technique. If you do and your attack lands, your target's Damage Reduction or Hardness is completely suppressed for 2 rounds.
Special: Whenever you use a martial maneuver, you gain a point number of points of technique equal to half the maneuver's level (rounded down, minimum 1). This ability does not stack with itself even if you possess multiple Metamaneuver feats.

[Fortuna]

Actually, I think it might be interesting if higher-level maneuvers gave less technique. That way, it's a trade-off between using your best maneuvers and using metamaneuvers.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Actually, I think it might be interesting if higher-level maneuvers gave less technique. That way, it's a trade-off between using your best maneuvers and using metamaneuvers.

Hm...that might actually be a good idea.

[Fortuna]

The precise scaling might be difficult, but perhaps something like 1+(highest maneuver level available-maneuver level)/2 points, round up?

So a first level Warblade gets 1 technique whatever he initiates.
A tenth level Warblade gets 1 technique on initiating a fifth level maneuver, or 1+(5-1)/2=3 technique for a first or second level.
And a twentieth level Warblade can initiate a ninth level maneuver for one point, or a first level maneuver for 5.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The precise scaling might be difficult, but perhaps something like 1+(highest maneuver level available-maneuver level)/2 points, round up?

So a first level Warblade gets 1 technique whatever he initiates.
A tenth level Warblade gets 1 technique on initiating a fifth level maneuver, or 1+(5-1)/2=3 technique for a first or second level.
And a twentieth level Warblade can initiate a ninth level maneuver for one point, or a first level maneuver for 5.

The formula is a bit complicated, but I think it works out decently in the end, and if you just do a table for it you get rid of a lot of the bad math...so yeah. That definitely works.

[Fortuna]

The important question becomes whether all maneuvers count, or only strikes. If all maneuvers count, then initiating boosts gets a lot more attractive, as you can double your technique output. On the other hand, maybe we want that. Thoughts?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The important question becomes whether all maneuvers count, or only strikes. If all maneuvers count, then initiating boosts gets a lot more attractive, as you can double your technique output. On the other hand, maybe we want that. Thoughts?

I think that would be desirable, as that gives us the chance to keep lower-level boosts viable: you can use high-level Strikes (and thus retain a decent damage output with strong effects), and combine them with low-level Boosts to still have a high output. Perhaps it would be necessary to limit per-round gain though, as otherwise the ability for someone with Adaptive Style to nova repeatedly might be a bit to much.

[Fortuna]

Simple enough: cap technique per round at the most you could gain per maneuver, plus one.

EDIT: That being the case, our table looks like this.

Technique Points Per Maneuver And Maximum Technique Per Round
{table=head]Initiator Level|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|Technique/Round

1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2

2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2

3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

5|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

6|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

7|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|4

8|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|4

9|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|4

10|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|4

11|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|5

12|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|5

13|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|5

14|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|5

15|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|6

16|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|6

17|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

18|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

19|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

20|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6[/table]

[Cieyrin]

Simple enough: cap technique per round at the most you could gain per maneuver, plus one.

EDIT: That being the case, our table looks like this.

Technique Points Per Maneuver And Maximum Technique Per Round
{table=head]Initiator Level|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|Technique/Round

1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2

2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2

3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

5|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

6|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

7|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|4

8|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|4

9|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|4

10|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|4

11|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|5

12|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|5

13|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|5

14|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|5

15|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|6

16|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|6

17|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

18|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

19|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

20|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6[/table]

And there was great rejoicing among the initiators who kept Sudden Leap, as what was awesome just got so much better.

[Timeless Error]

This is a brilliant idea. I'll be watching this closely, and may eventually suggest some of these feats to a Warblade playing in my campaign.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Some thoughts on implementation...

Moment in Time [Martial Technique]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +12, at least 2 Diamond Mind maneuvers
Effect: As a free action you may spend 10 technique points to take an immediate standard action at no action cost. This standard action must be used to initiate a martial strike. If the strike you use is a Diamond Mind strike, you regain a point of technique, even if this would put you over your normal maximum limit of technique gained this round.
Special: Whenever you initiate a martial strike, boost, or counter, you gain a number of technique points depending upon your Initiator level and the level of the maneuver expended (see table 1-1: Technique Points). No matter how many such maneuvers you initiate, you can never gain more than the listed maximum number of Technique Points in a single round.

Earthrattler [Martial Technique]
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, at least one Stone Dragon martial strike
Effect: When you initiate a martial strike that targets a single foe, you may choose to spend 5 technique points. If you do so, all foes within 10 feet of your target take 2d6 damage and fall prone. If the strike you used was a Stone Dragon strike, this ability costs only 4 technique.
Special: Whenever you initiate a martial strike, boost, or counter, you gain a number of technique points depending upon your Initiator level and the level of the maneuver expended (see table 1-1: Technique Points). No matter how many such maneuvers you initiate, you can never gain more than the listed maximum number of Technique Points in a single round.



Table 1-1: Technique Points
{table=head]Initiator Level|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|Maximum / Round

1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2

2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|2

3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

5|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

6|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|3

7|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|4

8|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|4

9|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|4

10|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|4

11|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|5

12|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|5

13|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|5

14|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|5

15|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|6

16|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|-|6

17|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

18|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

19|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6

20|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|6[/table][/QUOTE]

[bobthe6th]

blow back
prerequisites: base attack +3, two Desert Wind maneuvers
Effect: when you initiate a counter, you may spend 3 technique points. if you do, then the target that is being countered takes 1d6 fire damage. if this counter is Desert Wind it deals 2d6 damage instead.
Special: Whenever you initiate a martial strike, boost, or counter, you gain a number of technique points depending upon your Initiator level and the level of the maneuver expended (see table 1-1: Technique Points). No matter how many such maneuvers you initiate, you can never gain more than the listed maximum number of Technique Points in a single round.

boom, desert wind can burn even more... now flaming reposet is really fun...

[lunar2]

Don't have ToB, so don't know how maneuvers work, but what about a fatigue mechanic? when you use a metamaneuver, you become fatigued for a certain number of rounds because of the extra exertion. using a maneuver while fatigued makes you exhausted, and using one while exhausted KO's you. so, theoretically, you could stack 3 metamaneuvers, but you would fall unconscious afterwards. creatures immune to fatigue would have some similar penalty, instead.

[Kyuu Himura]

Don't have ToB, so don't know how maneuvers work, but what about a fatigue mechanic? when you use a metamaneuver, you become fatigued for a certain number of rounds because of the extra exertion. using a maneuver while fatigued makes you exhausted, and using one while exhausted KO's you. so, theoretically, you could stack 3 metamaneuvers, but you would fall unconscious afterwards. creatures immune to fatigue would have some similar penalty, instead.

Bad idea, fatigue hurts melee guys a lot, it decreases their offensive and defensive numbers (on which they kinda rely a lot) and takes actions per round, which they kinda need

[Realms of Chaos]

I, for one, don't see much of a point in creating a specific metamaneuver tag for feats. While it may create some amount of uniformity (which is good), it looks as though it will also require the use of entirely new mechanics to keep everything balanced if you try to keep every such feat operating uniformly (which is... eh). What's wrong with creating "metamaneuver" feats and simply having them be normal feats? For example:

Linked Strikes
You can link two martial strikes directly into one another.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, knowledge of at least 4 maneuvers
Benefits:As a full-round action, you may select two martial strikes of 3rd level or less. You may use both strikes in any order, taking a -4 penalty to attack rolls made using both strikes. If the first strike misses, the second is expended without any benefit. You need not target the same foe with both strikes made in this way.

Improved Linked Strikes
You can link two martial strikes directly into one another.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +11, knowledge of at least 6 maneuvers
Benefits: When using Linked Strikes, you can take an additional -2 penalty on all attacks made to either select martial strikes up to 5th level or to add a third martial strike. If adding a third strike, the first missed strike causes all strikes chosen afterwards to be expended without any benefit.