[PF] Sorcerer build

[Cicciograna]

A friend of mine asked me to join a Pathfinder game, and asked me to play a Sorcerer. Campaign world is the one from Midgard: Northlands extremely low magic.

Starting level is 9th, 10000gp to spend on items (even if I won't have them from the beginning - my PC will be introduced as a prisoner), only core.
My build would be this:

Human Sorcerer 9th
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 22 (includes the +2 from Human and two +1 from 4th and 8th level)

Feats: Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) Spell Penetration, Toughness, Improved Familiar (Dust mephit)

Acrobatics 1, Appraise 0, Bluff 13, Climb -1, Craft 0, Diplomacy 6, Disguise 6, Escape Artist 1, Fly 9, Heal 0, Intimidate 13, Perception 4, Perform 6, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0, Stealth 1, Spellcraft 9, Survival 0, Swim -1, Use Magic Device 13

Fey bloodline (my DM allowed only Abyssal, Boreal, Celestial, Draconic and Fey bloodlines)

Spells selected (in brackets those from the bloodline):

0th
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound
Dancing Lights
Mage Hand
Daze
Open/Close

1st
Silent Image
Protection from Evil
Grease
Charm
Obscuring Mist
(Entangle)

2nd
Glitterdust
Web
Rope Trick
Pyrotechincs
(Hideous Laughter)

3rd
Haste
Stinking Cloud
Fly
(Deep Slumber)

4th
Black Tentacles
Confusion
(Poison)
My doubts regard the two Spell Focus: at the moment they're probabily not the best, since I don't have many Enchantment spells, but I plan to pick some other Compulsion from the next level (Dominate) so that the +2 DC from Fey bloodline kicks in. I followed Treantmonk's Guide to Being God suggestions on spells, however, so I think that the choiches are good nonetheless, given that I plan to play a battlefield controller.
Moreover, there's Use Magic Device. Minstrel's guide to Sorcerers marks it as a must-have, and I generally would agree if I wasn't playing a casting class. Does it have the same usefulness even on a caster?

Give me your impressions and suggestions.

[Dyllan]

Moreover, there's Use Magic Device. Minstrel's guide to Sorcerers marks it as a must-have, and I generally would agree if I wasn't playing a casting class. Does it have the same usefulness even on a caster?

Use Magic Device being powerful is contingent on the availability of a good supply of magic items to use it with. In a low magic game like you're playing in, I'm not sure I'd bother with it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It's quite unfortunate that APG isn't allowed; Human Sorcerer favored class bonus is golden. In core your feat choices are rather slim; the problem with specializing in Enchantment is that, at this level, half your enemies may be immune to your best shtick. Then again, going by your spell list, you have other stuff you can do (very solid btw).

Speaking of said spell list, while Black Tentacles is one of my favorite 3.5 spells, it was pretty seriously nerfed in Pathfinder. I'd take Wall of Fire or Wall of Ice instead. Glitterdust was likewise nerfed, and it's somewhat redundant with Pyrotechnics. Its main use is foiling invisibility, which a bag of flour can also do. Bag of Flour + See Invisibility instead? Confusion was slightly nerfed, but it's still great. Use that and/or Stinking Cloud for the win. If neither work, Hasting the meatheads probably does.

Comments on feats:
- I don't believe Fey blooded sorcerers get a familiar, so if that's the case you can't get Improved Familiar. There's an "obtain familiar" feat in 3.5; is there one in PF core?
- What's your party look like? Combat casting is only worth it if you think you're going to be up close and personal quite a bit without the ability to 5' step away from attackers. Is your DM the type to use feats like step up?
- Toughness... well, again, it depends on how much you think you're going to get hit versus other things which may prevent you from getting hit.
- Spell Penetration is... okay in Core only. Thing is, I'm noticing a severe lack of metamagic. You know, sometimes it's worth giving up your move action to extend a spell like Haste in a long fight. You can still 5' step.

[Paul H]

Hi

Only way to get familiars as a Sorceror is the Arcane background.

Since it's a low magic game, does it allow for crafting? That will decide some of your feats.

Thanks
Paul H

[Redrat2k6]

Since I didn't see it I'm going to mention it. As a human the sorcerer as a favored class can have the ability to gain additional spells known instead of hit points or skill point. I would start doing this at level 4 for additional spells, since spell casting is your main ability and this significantly boosts your versatility.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

only core.

It's quite unfortunate that APG isn't allowed; Human Sorcerer favored class bonus is golden.

Since I didn't see it I'm going to mention it. As a human the sorcerer as a favored class can have the ability to gain additional spells known instead of hit points or skill point. I would start doing this at level 4 for additional spells, since spell casting is your main ability and this significantly boosts your versatility.Whoopsie daisy.

[Corlindale]

Heighten Spell is probably going to be useful for a sorceror, since it can help keep the DCs of your lower lvl compulsion spells current, and generally let you keep getting mileage out of your lower lvl spells known. A heightened hideous laughter, for example, can still be an effective disabling spell at the higher levels.
Otherwise there aren't that many useful metamagic feat for a crowd controller in core - though obviously you'll want Quicken eventually.

[Cicciograna]

Use Magic Device being powerful is contingent on the availability of a good supply of magic items to use it with. In a low magic game like you're playing in, I'm not sure I'd bother with it.
Hm, you are right. Probabily gonna remove some ranks from it.


Speaking of said spell list, while Black Tentacles is one of my favorite 3.5 spells, it was pretty seriously nerfed in Pathfinder. I'd take Wall of Fire or Wall of Ice instead. Glitterdust was likewise nerfed, and it's somewhat redundant with Pyrotechnics. Its main use is foiling invisibility, which a bag of flour can also do. Bag of Flour + See Invisibility instead? Confusion was slightly nerfed, but it's still great. Use that and/or Stinking Cloud for the win. If neither work, Hasting the meatheads probably does.
Black Tentacles still kicks ass, even if not as before; all in all I'm pretty much satisfied with my spell selection for what concerns Battlefield Control.


Comments on feats:

- What's your party look like? Combat casting is only worth it if you think you're going to be up close and personal quite a bit without the ability to 5' step away from attackers. Is your DM the type to use feats like step up?
- Toughness... well, again, it depends on how much you think you're going to get hit versus other things which may prevent you from getting hit.
- Spell Penetration is... okay in Core only. Thing is, I'm noticing a severe lack of metamagic. You know, sometimes it's worth giving up your move action to extend a spell like Haste in a long fight. You can still 5' step.
The party is formed by a Rogue, a Pally, a Ranger and a Bard. I don't know the level of optimization, but knowing the players I can suppose that Rogue and Paladin have good character sheets.
Toughness...well, I followed Treantmonk's suggestions, so it seemed a good idea to me. Moreover, it seems a good choiche, given the feat availability for the game.
For what concerns metamagic, I was planning to buy a lesser extend metamagic rod, well within my budget.


Hi

Only way to get familiars as a Sorceror is the Arcane background.

Since it's a low magic game, does it allow for crafting? That will decide some of your feats.

Thanks
Paul H


- I don't believe Fey blooded sorcerers get a familiar, so if that's the case you can't get Improved Familiar. There's an "obtain familiar" feat in 3.5; is there one in PF core?
OUCH! That's pretty bad: this is my first Pathfinder game and didn't know that Sorcerers lost the familiar. Given that I can't pick Arcane Bloodline, I'll have to drop the Improved familiar feat or ask the DM if I can swap some ability for it. Maybe the Laughing touch from power from Fey Bloodline...


Since I didn't see it I'm going to mention it. As a human the sorcerer as a favored class can have the ability to gain additional spells known instead of hit points or skill point. I would start doing this at level 4 for additional spells, since spell casting is your main ability and this significantly boosts your versatility.
Now THIS. I wonder if my DM knows about this rule: I'll check with him and see if he allows me to pick the favored class. Moar spells for the Sorcerer!
Okay, question has been addressed :smallsmile:
By the way, I'm sure I'm not the only one who recognized the irony of claiming that the game setting is an extremely low magic world and allowing a Sorcerer...
An alternative I was thinking about was a summoner Sorcerer. With an Abyssal Bloodline for DR/Good, the abundance of spells, the sheer power of Summon Monsters and some Augmented Summoning I could be pretty fearsome...except I would maybe steal the spotlight from other players, especially the damage dealers...

[Paul H]

Hi

Since it's only core - what about going Dragon Disciple?

So Sorc 6 (Draconic Bloodline), Drag Disciple 3.

Better HP, BAB, add bonuses from both DD PrC and Bloodline. Much better than the nerfed 3.5 one.

Thanks
Paul H

[chaos_redefined]

Hi

Since it's only core - what about going Dragon Disciple?

So Sorc 6 (Draconic Bloodline), Drag Disciple 3.

Better HP, BAB, add bonuses from both DD PrC and Bloodline. Much better than the nerfed 3.5 one.

Thanks
Paul H

It's better than the 3.5 one, yes, but still not that great. Better hp is the only thing that you've pointed out helps him more than just taking levels of sorc. Everything else that's relevant to a battlefield controller, he would have received by taking more levels of sorc and gaining 3 more levels of casting. 3 levels of casting is worth a lot.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I have to agree with chaos_redefined. DD gains some HP, BaB, fort save, strength, breath weapon, in exchange for spell levels (one at this point). For a primary caster, it's not worth it.

[Talentless]

You know, looking at your stat build, it occurs to me that you might* get better mileage out of this one.
8 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
12 Int
10 Wis
20 Cha

While it does drop your spell DC's a bit, as well as your per day class feature uses, it also improves a lot of your other abilities in return.

Your fort save and hp total get boosted (which is never a bad thing)
You get a bit higher AC, but the real thing is a better initiative, which is a damn good thing for a BC character.

And you happen to get an Int bonus skill point out of it, allowing for more skills, which is pretty nice.


Both versions have their pros and cons, and I honestly don't know which is better per say, I just happen to prefer being slightly more durable. Especially on the off chance that something gets close enough to hurt you.

[Paul H]

Hi

If you're allowed APG stuff. you could try Synthesist. (Summoner Archetype).

Option 1

Take one level of Synth, then 8 lvls of Sorc. Your Physical stats become:
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13. You can also get +2 Cha as racial stat bump. You can also get +4 Nat AC, some temp HP, Darkvision, +1 BAB. Nice spells.

Option 2

Be a Synthesist 9. prob best battlefield controller.
You get stat increases, better AC, better BAB, better HP. Excellent spells. Can also gain physical bonuses (wings, breath wpn, etc).

If you want I can give you an example build

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: Damn - missed the 'Core' part :smalleek:

[Cicciograna]

Update.

I asked my DM to swap the first power of Fey Bloodline with the one from Arcane BL to gain a familiar. He made a counteroffer: he proposed that I play an Hyperborean Sorcerer with Arcana Bloodline, gaining the spells from the Hyperborean Bloodline (I'm an idiot who can't read) with the condition that with the 9th level power from the Arcane BL I picked a spell from the Hyperborean list. For those not familiar with Hyperboreans (and the relative BL), here are the stats:

Hyperborean Race
+2 Str, -2 Wis, +2 Cha (not bad for a Sorcerer, even if the penalty to Wisdom is a moderate pain)
Normal movement rate (standard)
Immunity to blindness caused by snow or bright lights (situational - but given that we play in a northern setting could be handy)
Spark and Burning gaze as SLA 1/day (meh)
When angry, shed light as a light spell (meh)
+2 on Knowledge (The Planes) checks
+1 bonus on 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter on ST against fire effect, magical or not (not bad)
Charisma is considered as 2 points higher for "Sorcerer abilities" (not sure if it refers to just the skills or to all the features of a Sorcerer - the latter is WAY a better feature!)
+2 on ST against "prismatic" spells (could be handy)

The race is cool. Now the Bloodline spells:
Color spray (nice, even if our level is way too high to be really effective)
Hypnotic pattern ("fascinated" is a bit crappy as a condition, the limit on HD is a pain)
Searing light (blsater spell, not that good, for the matter)
Rainbow pattern (only marginally better than the other pattern)
Prismatic ray (don't really know what it is, it's not in the SRD)
Planar ally (really good)
Prismatic spray (good)
Prismatic wall (REALLY GOOD)
Prismatic sphere (REALLY GOOD)
All in all a good spell list (whereas the associated feats were a complete crap, and the abilities, apart from Spell Resistance at 15th equal 10+level where not this good).

Now, given the changes to the character, I think I'll go with these stats:

Hyperborean Sorcerer 9th
Str 8 -> 10
Dex 14 -> 14
Con 13 -> 13
Int 12 -> 12
Wis 12 -> 10
Cha 16 -> 20 (includes the racial +2 and the increments at 4th and 8th level)

Feats: Combat Casting, Improved Initiative [from Arcana Bloodline], Toughness, Improved Familiar (Dust mephit), Extend Spell, Still Spell

Acrobatics 2, Appraise 1, Bluff 12, Climb 0, Craft 1, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Escape Artist 2, Fly 10, Heal 0, Intimidate 10, Knowledge (Arcana) 6, Knowledge (Nature) 6 [picked as Bloodline skill], Perception 5, Perform 5, Ride 2, Sense Motive 0, Stealth 2, Spellcraft 10, Survival 0, Swim 0, Use Magic Device 9

Arcana Bloodline (but spells will be from Hyperborean BL)

Spells selected (in brackets those from the bloodline):

0th
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound
Dancing Lights
Mage Hand
Daze
Open/Close

1st
Mage Armor
Protection from Evil
Grease
Charm
Obscuring Mist
(Identify)

2nd
Mirror image
Web
Rope Trick Resist energy
Pyrotechincs
(Invisibility)

3rd
Haste
Stinking Cloud
Fly
(Dispel Magic)

4th
Black Tentacles
Confusion Summon Monster IV
Rainbow pattern [from 9th level power of Arcane Bloodline]
(Dimension door)

[ericgrau]

Good spells, but you need to replace your 1st and 2nd level spells with hour/level buffs and other out-of-combat spells. There's no way you could possible cast 26+ spells per day in combat.

Sorcerers need more generally useful spells in their high level slots. You might pull it off from sheer number of control spells, but it'd be better to have low level buffs and more generally useful high level spells. Web and haste are fine, but I'd consider fireball, sleet storm, solid fog and wall of ice as more general purpose spells instead of your other 3rd and 4th level spells. They're good, but so situational that I wouldn't get too many of them. That will give you repeatedly usable combat spells so you can devote your 1st and 2nd level spells and maybe a 3rd level spell to more out-of-combat stuff like invisibility, false life, mage armor, etc., etc. Some utility stuff is good too, but most utility belongs on scrolls instead. Silent image is great though and not as good if on a scroll.

Likewise I wouldn't put utility/etc. spells in your high level slots. Dimension door is a great spell, but you won't win fights with it. Unless ferrying the party around is a constant problem, wait until you have 5th level spells at least before 1 of your 2 best spells is something you use once every couple gaming sessions.

[Cicciograna]

Okay, here's an update about my first session, last night.

First of all, I played with the character presented in my last post: you'll notice that I haven't got any magic item. Since my addition to the game was represented by my saving from a prison, this is appropriate; however, to offset this lack of magic items my DM granted me some permanent bonuses: he gave me a permanent +1 to all the STs (kinda good) and a permanent +3 on natural armor (meh).

So, as my fellow party members found me in a dungeon, we set up for the exit, but on the way out we were attacked by 5 vampire spawns and their sire, which surrounded us while in gaseous form. Battle ensued, and you'll see that I performed poorly.
First, my group is composed by a rogue, a (bow focused) ranger, a paladin, a bard and me, a sorcerer; everyone is 9th level. I rolled poorly initiative and acted after the ranger, the pally, the bard and the vampires. Ranger began with a volley of arrows which downed one VS; then was the turn of the paladin, which used some power I didn't recognize (I'm new to PF) that allowed her to use positive energy to damage all the undead in the area: she was midly effective, due to the fact that almost all of them made their saving throw to halve; after her, the bard casted Haste Then was their turn: the paladin was hit badly, as she suffered much damage and got 3 negative levels; the ranger too was hit, and me too, losing one of my highest spell slots (UGH!). Then it was my turn: now, the party was in melee with the vampires, so friends and ofes were all tightly packed one next to the other. Since my spell list comprises many spells which do not differentiate (Web, Stinking cloud, the Tentacles), I was a bit at odd: moreover, the threat of level loss was highly worrying. So I decided to cast Invisibility first and then provide support to my friends, by the means of a Summon Monster IV first and some Protection from Evil, Fly and finally some battlefield controlling spell such as Web. So, once invisible, I moved out from the vampires' grasp and watched; I purposedly left my dust mephit out of the fray because he had already used its SLAs. As the last character to act, the rogue made his attacks and dealt some damage.
In the following round, the ranger threw another barrage of arrows, greatly weakening other three VSs, the paladin used smite evil and another use of her positive energy power, dealing another good deal of damage to everyone, and the bard attacked the remaining VSs, killing some of them; the remaining vampire and VSs threw some other attacks to (don't remember who), missing. During my turn I began my casting of Summon Monster IV, and basically didn't anything else. Finally, the rogue downed the last VS.
At the beginning of the third round, the ranger gibbed the vampire with another salve of arrows and the fight was over.

Overall, I was not satisfied with my performance. Sure, the damage output of my comrades was high for the fight, which ensured that the entire battle lasted less than three rounds, and in three rounds there isn't much to accomplish; however, my spell list was not entirely useful, nor my tactic, as falling back to Invisibility prevented me from casting any battlefield controlling spell not to dispel the Invis, thus relegating me to the (secondary) role of buffer. Moreover, some of my spells weren't all that useful against vampires, as Web and the Tentacles (probabily my best BC spells) could have been overcome with gaseous form.
I'm open to any comment.

[Pilo]

Do not complain after only one session.
Focus more on how could you be usefull and thankfull for the people who saved you.