Three wizard questions

[Essence_of_War]

Starting a game with my group, all official sourcebooks, but no dragon/dungeon magazine, available with DM approval. Plan is to go to 20, but I think ending circa 15th is MUCH more likely.

Other party members:
A (likely unoptimized) blaster sorcerer
A ranged Swift Hunter
A DMM melee focused cleric aiming for Walker in the Wastes
A psionic rogue Thri-Kreen

1) Would a focused specialist Conjurer, or a focused specialist Transmuter/gish be a better fit? I'm leaning towards the latter as I think having another melee front-liner might be wise. On the other hand, the conjurer can MAKE additional frontliners. Basically, I want to be VERY useful, but not make it feel like I'd doing the lion's share of the work. Thoughts?

2) I have a tentative spellbook for the Transmuter 4 gish-to-be w/ collegiate wizard, as we've been told scrolls/tomes will be rare early on. Am I missing any really good goodies? (Banned Schools are Enchantment, Eviocation, Necromancy)

(6+int mod + 4 = 16, primordial half-giant gets int from 18->22)
1st:

Enlarge Person (trans)
Nerveskitter (trans)
Ray of Clumsiness (trans)
Treacherour Weapon (trans)
Swift expeditious retreat (trans)
Mage Armor (conj)
Grease (conj)
Benign Transposition (conj)
Wall of Smoke (conj)
Protection from X (abj)
Shield (abj)
Karmic Aura (abj)
True Strike (div)
True Casting (div)
Silent Image (illu)
Color Spray (illu)


2nd:

heart of air (trans)
quick potion (trans)
heroics (trans)
web (conj)
glitterdust (conj)
resist energy (abj)
Mirror Image (illu)
Invisibility (illu)


Conspicuously absent is alter self. We have a gentleman's agreement not to abuse that, and as a result we mostly just stay away from it. We also aren't big fans of polymorph abuse, so we're planning on house ruling a set of spells, in the vein of Trollshape, Dragonshape, and Body of War, that get you a specific form, but cost you a spell known. It might be nice, for example, to have other X-shapes that allow me to get a flying, swimming, etc circa 4th/5th level.

3) Could anyone with experience with a similar houserule comment on whether or not it's sensible/has worked out well for them in the past?

Edit: Updated spell list to ban evocation rather than illusion, in case I plan to go with the gish.

[Psyren]

1) I think you're very low on front-line power; if your cleric gets hit with a dispel you guys can be easily minced by something that's built for melee. Combine that with your modifications to alter self and the polymorph line, and I think a conjurer (esp. going into Malconvoker) is your best bet and can easily shore up your front line while still giving you lots to do.

2) You want illusion no matter which one you go with. Gishing without illusion is nearly suicide; it's the best way to get concealment, and that will protect you far better than AC will. Toss evocation instead and leave that to the sorcerer (you can shadow up any evocations you really need.) And if you go the summoning route, illusion will let you double your army in an instant and really confuse the hell out of anybody you fight.

3) Restricting polymorph is only sensible (though I would ask the DM to simply restrict the forms you can choose rather than chopping up the spell, that will keep things cheaper for you.)

[Keld Denar]

1) I'd say Conjourer. Why? Abrupt Jaunt. You can be a badass, and sometimes things still go bad. AJ is another layer of defense to keep your bacon from getting cooked. You can always keep some Transmutations around even if you are a Conjourer.

2) You don't need Identify. Get an Artificer's Monacle (MIC, 1500g). It converts Detect Magic into Identify. It doesn't cost 1500g per use, so each use after the 15th use is "free". Other than that, I agree with Psyran...you WANT Illusion. Mirror Image and Greater Mirrior Image, Displacement, Greater Invisibility, etc are all great for gishing.

3) The Giant has fixed form Polymorph houserules on this website that predate the SpC and PHBII. If its good enough for the Giant, its good enough for me (and probably you).

[Essence_of_War]

3) The Giant has fixed form Polymorph houserules on this website that predate the SpC and PHBII. If its good enough for the Giant, its good enough for me (and probably you).


You know what, I knew those existed and I just completely forgot about them! :smallredface: I'm going to check them out again and see how my group feels about them.

[Essence_of_War]

We've played a few sessions and I'm having a grand time. We level'd once, at which point I took a Crusader level. I'm looking at 3rd level spells for next level. We were transported to a very weird world/plane/something where it appears that the only people with access to magic are our party members, so scrolls to expand the spellbook and thus far, non-existent. I'm REALLY glad I took collegiate wizard.:smallbiggrin:

I ended focusing in conjuration, because I thought we needed the battlefield shaping and the ability to generate extra meat shields. I still have more than enough slots of transmutation stuff if I want to buff, but until I get a little hardier, I'm spending most of my time off of the front line.

Here's the big 8 I'm looking at for 3rd level spells:

3rd level:

Summon Monster 3 (conj)
Dimension Step (conj)
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (conj)
Anticipate Teleport (abj)
Heart of Water (trans)
GMW (trans)
Haste (trans)
Slow (trans)

Advice/Recommendations? I tried to get a mix of useful stuff on there. Notably Dispel Magic is absent, the Sorcerer was planning to pick that one up this level.

[Malachei]

Yes, Collegiate Wizard is nice.

You're dipping Crusader: Are you planning to pick up Thicket of Blades?

Btw, I like your gentlemen's agreement.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Here's the big 8 I'm looking at for 3rd level spells:

3rd level:

Summon Monster 3 (conj)
Dimension Step (conj)
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (conj)
Anticipate Teleport (abj)
Heart of Water (trans)
GMW (trans)
Haste (trans)
Slow (trans)


Haste, Slow, Dimension Step, Summon III, and Heart of Water are gravy for you. Anticipate Teleport seems pointless if your up agianst pure mundanes. Melf's Unicorn Arrow is fun but there are better things out there.


Advice/Recommendations? I tried to get a mix of useful stuff on there. Notably Dispel Magic is absent, the Sorcerer was planning to pick that one up this level.

Pick it anyways. D&D may be a team game but being self reliant is great in case the sorcerer is incapacitated or seperated from you. Dispel Magic is prudent till you get a version with a higher CL cap. Maybe not at the first time you get 3rd level spells if the Sorcerer taking it and against mundanes but pick it up anyways.

[herrhauptmann]

3rd level:

Summon Monster 3 (conj): I wouldn't, but the Summon Monster 3 and below monster lists seem a little meh to me. But if you've already got a reserve feat that can be powered by SM-3, then go for it.
Dimension Step (conj): No idea. How is it different from dimension door?
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (conj): No idea, what's it do again? (AFB)
Anticipate Teleport (abj): Not sure. I guess situational.
Heart of Water (trans):Good/great
GMW (trans): Useful, but I'd wait for a while. At the moment, boosting a weapon from +1 to +2 is not worth it. Maybe if you're lacking in magic weapons, and everything has DR/magic...
Haste (trans): Great. There's a reason they built a PrC on this spell.
Slow (trans) Gishes should buff themselves/party. Casting spells to debuff the enemy requires you to use spells that don't allow saves or SR. Having that lost caster level starts to hurt, especially at high levels.

Do you have Luminous (Greater) Armor, lvls 2 and 4?


List of spells I got with some help from Shneekey for gishes.
1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)-Even if Sorc has it, take it. What if he gets dazed/stunned/knocked the eff out?

4th Level Spells:

Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

[Endarire]

Stinking cloud is wonderful for offense. Couple it with black tentacles next spell level and you're set!

Going Jade Phoenix Mage? Malconvoker?

[Coidzor]

Basically, I want to be VERY useful, but not make it feel like I'd doing the lion's share of the work. Thoughts?


So, you wanna be a God (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God), eh? :smallamused:

[docnessuno]

I see just a glaring flaw right now. You are missing wraithstrike (spell compendium 243).

[Essence_of_War]

Malachei,
Going for JPM by way of crusader. Thicket of Blades is on the list but I really like aura of perfect order's synergy with arcane wrath (helloooo not missing on natural 1's!) as well. Our gentleman's agreement has worked very well. We had a tiefling assassin who...pushed...the boundaries of it. The reaction has mostly been to stay away from it.

MesiDoomstalker,
I think you're right, I can always pick up anticipate teleport later, if/when we depart into the world of the non-mundanes. I'll take dispel now just in case. Maybe take wraithstrike instead of unicorn horn? docnessuno pointed out that this is a glaring hole in the gish lineup.

herrhauptmann,

Summon Monster 3 (conj): I wouldn't, but the Summon Monster 3 and below monster lists seem a little meh to me. But if you've already got a reserve feat that can be powered by SM-3, then go for it.
I like SM3 for the ability to put a little more meat on our frontlines if need be.


Dimension Step (conj): No idea. How is it different from dimension door?
Dimension Step gives every willing ally near me a free, short range dim door. Let's me re-arrange all of the chess pieces on our team as it were.


Melf's Unicorn Arrow (conj): No idea, what's it do again? (AFB)
Unicorn Arrow is the damage + bull rush. I'm thinking of dropping it for Wraithstrike.

I don't have either of the luminous armors. Source/Description?

Endarire,
I was thinking about stinking cloud, because I'm almost certainly going to get black tentacles. I'll try to make room for it.

I was considering malconvoker originally, but I have never had a chance to play a gish, and I thought a ToB one would be really fun. Going for the usual 6 levels of Abjurant Champion and 8-9 levels of JPM. My DM has, exceedingly generously, allowed me to get into JPM at 6th level rather than 7th and told me he was considering letting me have 9/10 casting out of it (I was the previous DM and let him and several other players customize prestige class towards a character concept since they didn't want to go digging through mountains of source materials. There's a lesson here about good deeds coming back around maybe? :smallbiggrin:). Build will probably look like:
Focused Conjurer 4/Crusader1/JPM1 or 1-2/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/JPM2-9 or 3-9

Coidzor,
Heh, heh, Yes. God with a helping of Gish? :smallamused:

docnessuno,
You're absolutely right, I will try to make room for this by swapping somethings around.

Tentative New List:

Summon Monster 3 (conj)
Dimension Step (conj)
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (conj) OR Stinking Cloud
Dispel Magic (abj)
Heart of Water (trans)
GMW (trans) OR Something else? Considering putting this off for a few levels.
Haste (trans)
Wraithstrike (2nd level)


Big changes are dropping slow (for now), dropping anticipate teleport (at least as long as we're in the land of the mundanes), and getting dispel and wraithstrike. Still up in the air on Unicorn Arrow vs. Stinking Cloud.

[herrhauptmann]

Luminous armors are from Book of Exalted Deeds. Sanctified spells, so only [Good] preparation casters can use them. No spontaneous casters. Some other potential disadvantages too.
THey're nice, and get REALLY nice when you've a few levels in Abjurant Champion (Com Mage).

Get Dimension Step. Sounds like a GREAT spell.
Ditching melfs unicorn for a wraithstrike sounds like a good idea.

Lets see, if you like the evil tentacles, there's an upgraded Evards Black Tentacles that deals negative level damage from a Faerun Book. I'm thinking Underdark or Unapproachable East. I'll have to get back to you on its location and name. But it's a level 6 or 7 spell.