Cry of the Noob: Playing a Halfling Cleric

[Demitrious]

So I'm playing in a game my friend is running in 3.5e. Since it's his first time as a DM, I couldn't say I'm not joining. Problem is, this is also MY first time playing in a steady game. The most I had actually played of D&D was a random pick-up game every so often at a local comic shop when the LAN computers were taken up. I understand the mechanics of the game. I'm just lost on what to do with my character.

I was the first to make my character, and I wanted to make something interesting - yes, while not considering my complete lack of inexperience. So I made Eckselon Darkmoor (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9SFfUUaPkCXMjdlYzBkMjgtYWM5MC00MzM0LWFkM WEtMzEzODE0ZDNkOTU4), a halfling cleric of Oldimarra. I pretty much made this character in an attempt to meet his backstory: switched with a baby from a family of rouges by Oldimarra himself, Ecks steers away from his family's bandit lineage to become a cleric.

I've encountered every issue I could with a character like this with size modifiers, lack of attack bonus, and so on. Spellcasting isn't a problem for me right now; I abuse spontaneous casting. What I'm concerned about is actual combat. The game I'm in has a lot of melee encounters so far and I feel I need to be able to throw down. With everything I've seen so far, I'm thinking of treating this character almost like a rouge, if not take a level in the class. Anyone have any advice?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Obligatory Link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866830/The_Cleric_Handbook)

Any chance to change the feats so you can go the DMM Persist route (see above link)? There are a lot of great Cleric buffs (including party buffs to make everyone happy) that can last all day. A "rogueish" personal buff is Cloud of Knives (Player's Handbook II), which lets you make a free ranged dagger attack once per round that uses your caster level and casting stat to calculate to-hit instead of BaB/dex.

Also, what sources are allowed? If you're just using core, I'd still try and switch up the feats, maybe to Extend Spell and Improved Initiative. As a halfling I'd try to stick to the back and use that sling or cast spells. Maybe nudge the melee characters to get reach weapons so it's harder for the melee enemies to reach the casters in the back.

[Lateral]

rouge

It's not that hard to spell. :smallannoyed:
---------------------
DMM Persist could be a viable route, but you don't really have enough feats to pull it off yet. At this level, though, you don't really have the spells required to be a boss at melee; Summon Monster spells could do well for you, though. Try looking into those. Also, here's another cleric's handbook; (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) it's good to have a second opinion. Quick tip: Get a wand of Cure Light Wounds and use that to heal after combats rather than burning spell slots and trying to do it in the middle of combat.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

IME in-combat healing at low levels most often takes the form of bringing someone back to consciousness. Trust me, I've burned lots of spell slots doing just that, and as long as the other characters are getting themselves into those situations, healing becomes quite a nice buff.

[Demitrious]

I've actually gone through both the popular guides, and prefer BG's (though I don't know why their site is down right now); and I've considered their advice, but a bit of it goes above my head since it's directed to people who have played before. For example, what on earth is BaB?!:smallbiggrin:

I'm allowed to use pretty much anything as long as the DM says it's good, even other editions, so it gives someone like me a lot of range, but MUCH more than I could have bargained for.

So far, from what you guys are saying, it seems like I have to stick to healing for now? Should I hold off on the melee until later, then?

[Gnaeus]

I've actually gone through both the popular guides, and prefer BG's (though I don't know why their site is down right now); and I've considered their advice, but a bit of it goes above my head since it's directed to people who have played before. For example, what on earth is BaB?!:smallbiggrin:

Base attack Bonus

Halflings aren't usually masters of melee. Their small size and low strength work against them.

Taking rogue levels fits thematically, but it is pretty much always going to make your character weaker. First rule of practical optimization is never lose caster levels.

Healing, as mentioned, should be done out of combat, or in combat to bring unconscious allies back into the fight. In combat, at the moment, look to buff spells or spells that disable opponents. Hold person is effectively a save or die against humanoids, and sound burst is also good. Summon monster II isn't bad, if you aren't in melee to begin with.

A rapier, in your hands, does 1d4-1. Even at level 3, that isn't worth your action. You would be better off acting like a flanker for a warrior friend and doing aid another actions to give him +2 to hit, or throwing flasks of oil.

As stated, you REALLY want to change your feats. Yours are terrible. I would recommend taking a devotion feat. Travel is best, although Chaos will still help you more than weapon finesse. Divine metamagic may also be worth considering if you think you can get nightsticks in the future.

[Lateral]

I've actually gone through both the popular guides, and prefer BG's (though I don't know why their site is down right now); and I've considered their advice, but a bit of it goes above my head since it's directed to people who have played before. For example, what on earth is BaB?!:smallbiggrin:

BG is back up.

[Pigkappa]

Oh god don't listen to the forum. Your friend is new as a DM and you're new as a player. This will be a low-optimization game and you don't want to throw in some crazy combo from the internet.

Cleric is an effective class and you can't do too bad. If you find out in game you're not contributing, try to use your spells for something else than healing. Don't take DMM:Persist (also, if you try to, you will spend several levels with feats you won't actually use like Extend Spell or Persist spell).

[Lateral]

Oh god don't listen to the forum. Your friend is new as a DM and you're new as a player. This will be a low-optimization game and you don't want to throw in some crazy combo from the internet.

Cleric is an effective class and you can't do too bad. If you find out in game you're not contributing, try to use your spells for something else than healing. Don't take DMM:Persist (also, if you try to, you will spend several levels with feats you won't actually use like Extend Spell or Persist spell).

DMM: Persist is actually a viable tactic even in a low-op party as long as you're doing team buffs- everyone feels like they're awesome, and nobody really sees you as overpowered as long as you're not going CoDzilla on their asses. I agree that it comes online too late to be viable at third level without flaws, though.

[deuxhero]

You can use Hold Person to aid allies in core only even.

[Gnaeus]

DMM: Persist is actually a viable tactic even in a low-op party as long as you're doing team buffs- everyone feels like they're awesome, and nobody really sees you as overpowered as long as you're not going CoDzilla on their asses. I agree that it comes online too late to be viable at third level without flaws, though.

Yeah, I would suggest DMM quicken over DMM persist. Less powerful ultimately, but comes online quicker and less likely to get banned. Use it to throw out a fast buff at the beginning of boss fight, or for a quickened heal.

[Lateral]

Yeah, I would suggest DMM quicken over DMM persist. Less powerful ultimately, but comes online quicker and less likely to get banned. Use it to throw out a fast buff at the beginning of boss fight, or for a quickened heal.

I'd actually say that DMM: Quicken is more likely to get banned, seeing as how it's much more obviously your power that's winning the battle, whereas with persistent buffs people tend to not really notice that they're radically increasing your combat potential since they're pretty much always there.

[Pigkappa]

How can you not notice how strong a Persisted Mass Vigor is?

However, I don't see why a new player should try and be much better than his teammates, even if he does so in a way that they may not notice it (but they probably will anyway). Being able to contribute is fine, being the best is potentially problematic and I wouldn't try at all to do that.

[Metahuman1]

I'd get feat retraining and go Cleric Archer. It contributes but shouldn't totally make everyone else feel irrelevant.

[Lateral]

How can you not notice how strong a Persisted Mass Vigor is?

I was thinking more like Persistent Mass Bear's Endurance or something. That increases the party's survivability significantly, without being as blatantly powerful as Persistent Mass Vigor. Just because you can persist a few spells a day doesn't mean you have to persist stuff that's ridiculous when persisted. Besides, without Nightstick shenanigans it's a couple of spells a day at best; that really isn't so much.

Again, though, it isn't really a path that's viable at third level without flaws.

[tenshiakodo]

I played a Halfling Cleric once. I had the Earth Domain, and I quickly discovered Magic Stone was my friend. Thanks to your size modifier, hitting with attacks isn't usually an issue with a Halfling. I suggest, if you're going into melee, to take a look at spells with a range of touch, such as Cause Light Wounds. You are allowed, when using a touch spell, to cast it while out of range of melee attackers, then move to attack with it in melee, which allows you to potentially avoid opportunity attacks.

Healing in combat is questionable, and you probably shouldn't bother with more than a cure minor wounds to keep allies alive, then burn your healing out of combat. At low levels, a fight or two will no doubt have you retreating to some safe place so you can try to make Heal checks to accelerate natural healing. Make sure your DM (since he's new) understands this!

Where the Cleric shines in his ability to prevent allies from taking damage in the first place. Cast spells from the Vigor series or Aid as soon as you can. Bless may seem weak, but it allows the entire party to hit more often, which can end fights faster.

Invest in Scribe Scroll or Brew Potion, so you can create backups of key spells in case there's trouble. Yes, it costs gold and xp, but it won't put you as far behind your allies in levels as you might think, plus experience does you little good if you die. Plan ahead, ask the guys with knowledge skills or NPC's what you may be facing in advance.

You can change your spell list each day, so try to use that to your advantage. As soon as you can, invest in a Wand of Cure Minor Wounds or Lesser Vigor (or Healing Belts, if your DM allows them) so you can save precious spell slots for game-changing spells.

[Gnaeus]

I was thinking more like Persistent Mass Bear's Endurance or something. That increases the party's survivability significantly, without being as blatantly powerful as Persistent Mass Vigor. Just because you can persist a few spells a day doesn't mean you have to persist stuff that's ridiculous when persisted. Besides, without Nightstick shenanigans it's a couple of spells a day at best; that really isn't so much.


Doesn't work. It doesn't have a fixed range, and is therefore not persistable. Mass lesser vigor, at range 30, is.

[Tokuhara]

For anyone playing a Halfling Cleric, I have 2 Obligatory statements:

Strongheart Halfling (Standard Halfling + Bonus Feat) and Yondalla's Sense (WIS to Initiative. The Playground sometimes forgets that you need to actually enter battle in order to do al of these amazing things. Hence why I pride Initiative Boosts near the top of my list for casters)

On other notes:

If you are allowed any 3rd Party, I suggest Way of the Scorpion (Some OA sourcebook), which adds INT to Initiative, Zen Archery for a "Zen Cleric Slinger," since Halflings get a bonus to thrown weapons, and definately DMM: Persist.

Sidebar: I love Halflings as Clerics or other "squishies," since the +1 AC is always welcome.

[Yora]

Oh god don't listen to the forum. Your friend is new as a DM and you're new as a player. This will be a low-optimization game and you don't want to throw in some crazy combo from the internet.
Because you are asking how to ride a bike, and lots of people will start a discussion how to jump over the grand canyon on a motorcycle while doing a backflip. While being on fire.

I would propose only using the Player's Handbook and nothing else.
Since you play a cleric, you already probably have the strongest character in the group. Put on the best armor you can find, and you're ready to go.

[erikun]

Oh god don't listen to the forum. Your friend is new as a DM and you're new as a player. This will be a low-optimization game and you don't want to throw in some crazy combo from the internet.

Cleric is an effective class and you can't do too bad. If you find out in game you're not contributing, try to use your spells for something else than healing. Don't take DMM:Persist (also, if you try to, you will spend several levels with feats you won't actually use like Extend Spell or Persist spell).
I will have to agree with this statement. If you are new and your DM is new, then you are probably best off with a relatively simple build and keeping your options open over a heavily metamagic'd persistent magically buffed enlarged melee cleric monster.


The Zen Archery feat is rather nice, as it will give you WIS to ranged attack rolls rather than DEX; it can be rather nice if you want to play an archer or sneak-and-run type of character. (Bows and thrown weapons aren't that great in this system, though.) The Trickery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#trickeryDomain) domain is worth looking into, as you could get some very typical Rogue skills (especially Bluff and Hide), but remember that the Cleric does not get very many skill points in comparison. You would probably be best off focusing on just one "roguish" aspect, like talking with people (Diplomancy/Bluff focus) or hiding well.

For prestige classes, Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist might be worth considering if you want to be good in melee despite being small sized. WIS to AC You may find yourself wishing you had more spellcasting available, though. I seem to recall a Rogue/Cleric prestige class that advances spellcasting and sneak attack, if you wanted a literal Rogue/Cleric, but don't recall what it is or where it is located. Temple Raider of Olidammara, despite being thematically appropriate, will probably be disappointing due to having its own spell list.

For feats, Extend Spell might be one you want to consider. Doubling the length of your buffs will generally mean extending them for twice as many fights, which can be worth the +1 spell level invested.

[Demitrious]

Ok, so far, this is what I'm taking from this, to show that I'm learning. I really do appreciate the help:


Base attack Bonus

Halflings aren't usually masters of melee.

Taking rogue levels fits thematically, but is always going to make your character weaker.

Healing, as mentioned, should be done out of combat, or in combat to bring unconscious allies back into the fight. Look to buff spells or disable opponents.

Better off acting like a flanker for a warrior friend and doing aid another actions to give him +2 to hit, or throwing flasks of oil.

Look into taking a devotion feat. Divine metamagic may also be worth considering if you think you can get nightsticks in the future.

Given the halfling's stats and everyone's consensus, I'm really trying to get the idea of melee out of my head. Of course my goal isn't to become a melee master, simply to get better at it for now in case it comes to that. I prefer my ranged weapons. I think I'll try and focus more on buff spells if anything. Also, I've actually instinctively use flasks in battle, but instead of oil, I use flasks of Dwarven Ale, which is far more flammable in this game. ^^




Don't bother with more than a cure minor wounds to keep allies alive, then burn your healing out of combat. A fight or two will no doubt have you retreating to some safe place so you can try to make Heal checks to accelerate natural healing.

Cast spells from the Vigor series or Aid as soon as you can. Bless may seem weak, but it allows the entire party to hit more often, which can end fights faster.

Invest in Scribe Scroll or Brew Potion, so you can create backups of key spells in case there's trouble.

As soon as you can, invest in a Wand of Cure Minor Wounds or Lesser Vigor (or Healing Belts, if your DM allows them) so you can save precious spell slots for game-changing spells.

You, sir, are full of wisdom! I'm taking the combat healing to heart, especially since I know my DM and he likes to give squishies a run for their money. Right now, I haven't anywhere near the gold to buy things like wands of Cure Minor Wounds, but I did manage to invest in a few cheap low-level scrolls. In fact, the role-playing for that got me to level three. (I conned a vendor trapped in a tower by convincing him that selling me four scrolls for 16 gold was too much, and convinced him a great marketing tactic was to sell them, plus an extra set of four for 9 gold, 9 silver, and 9 copper.) I think I'll stick with that for now.


The Trickery domain is worth looking into, as you could get some very typical Rogue skills (especially Bluff and Hide), but remember that the Cleric does not get very many skill points in comparison. You would probably be best off focusing on just one "roguish" aspect, like talking with people (Diplomancy/Bluff focus) or hiding well.

For prestige classes, Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist might be worth considering if you want to be good in melee despite being small sized. WIS to AC You may find yourself wishing you had more spellcasting available, though. I seem to recall a Rogue/Cleric prestige class that advances spellcasting and sneak attack, if you wanted a literal Rogue/Cleric, but don't recall what it is or where it is located. Temple Raider of Olidammara, despite being thematically appropriate, will probably be disappointing due to having its own spell list.

For feats, Extend Spell might be one you want to consider. Doubling the length of your buffs will generally mean extending them for twice as many fights, which can be worth the +1 spell level invested.

As a cleric of Olidmarra I've actually taken Luck and Trickery as my domains already, but taking your advice, I think I'll just make my character a smooth talker, which means I'll have to buffer my CHA a bit. As far as prestige classes go, I might just stick to straight cleric until I get the hang of gameplay and more used to roleplaying; I will be looking into Zen Archery and Zen Cleric Slinger as advised by Tokuhara. They sound interesting.


I would propose only using the Player's Handbook and nothing else.

This. I'm still learning a bit of the system, so I think I'll try and stick to the PHB and PHBII unless I see any good suggestions for spells and feats. Yondalla's Sense caught my eye, but I don't know if that has a deity requirement or not. We'll see.

[erikun]

As a cleric of Olidmarra I've actually taken Luck and Trickery as my domains already, but taking your advice, I think I'll just make my character a smooth talker, which means I'll have to buffer my CHA a bit. As far as prestige classes go, I might just stick to straight cleric until I get the hang of gameplay and more used to roleplaying; I will be looking into Zen Archery and Zen Cleric Slinger as advised by Tokuhara. They sound interesting.
This sounds good. You might try to get a few ranks of Sense Motive alongside that Bluff and Diplomancy, even if cross-classed, so that your character doesn't fall for the same fast-talk they are using. Then again, you are short on skill points and having a fast-talk character who doesn't necessarily compare to the master might be amusing. :smallwink:

Prestiges classes are always an option, but only an option. Pure-Cleric will work great most of the time, so don't think you have to multiclass/prestige class to be good.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cleric of Oldimarra with Luck and Trickery...

Why were you not a Cloistered Cleric?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

[Demitrious]

Cleric of Oldimarra with Luck and Trickery...

Why were you not a Cloistered Cleric?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

That actually is a bit further from my idea of this character, mechanically and thematically. I've made him a bit of a traveller-type, constantly throwing parties for Oldimarra where he ends up. Also, we already have a bookworm in the group, so I'd rather not take her spot.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't have to play him as bookish -- remember, flavor is mutable -- just make him skillfull due to his travels, and less interested in martial things. Remember, he gets extra skills and skill points..

[KillianHawkeye]

Your size modifier to grapple should be -4, not +1.

Also, did you know that clerics are not proficient in rapier or shortbow?

[Zaq]

Sidebar: I love Halflings as Clerics or other "squishies," since the +1 AC is always welcome.

Even without spells, I have a hard time calling anything proficient with heavy armor and shields "squishy," especially if it has a d8 hit die. Add in protective spells (oh, and healing, I guess), and Clerics are one of the least squishy classes in the game.

Cloistered Clerics are different only in that they have to use their spells instead of just standing around in a tin can.

[Leon]

You are playing the best support class in the game - don't worry about your melee capability, use the great selection of Buff spells you have access to to make your party a formidable force to be reckoned with.

Until you get access to the Heal spell in combat healing is a bit limited although Close wounds is useful to stop party members from dying in the heat of battle.

A Rod of Lesser Metamagic (Extend) is a useful item to have a couple of, it does what the feat does but without the extra prep needed.

[Demitrious]

Your size modifier to grapple should be -4, not +1.

Also, did you know that clerics are not proficient in rapier or shortbow?

Did you know that Olidmarra's weapon of choice is rapier and that my DM has allowed me to use both? :smallbiggrin: