Unlimited Feats

[Emperor Tippy]

The psionic power Feat Leech (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm) says "While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed.".

Well those feats are a viable target for Embrace the Dark Chaos (which says "replaces one feat of the subjects choice that it already possesses").

So the Chaos Shuffle can turn the feats stolen by Feat Leech into any permanent feat that you want.

Yes, I know there are other tricks that can be used when combined with Chaos Shuffle for unlimited feats, but I believe that this is the easiest and cheapest method to do so.

[Psyren]

I'll check KA's psitricks handbook for that one - if it's not there he can add it.

[King Atticus]

I'd say that because it replaces the feat that has been leached the same conditions set on the original would apply to the shuffled feat. So it would work but IMHO it would only last as long as the power does. If that is the case, it seems like a lot of effort for very little gain since the power only lasts a minute per level.

Don't know if I'm right but that's my guess.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'd say that because it replaces the feat that has been leached the same conditions set on the original would apply to the shuffled feat. So it would work but IMHO it would only last as long as the power does. If that is the case, it seems like a lot of effort for very little gain since the power only lasts a minute per level.

Don't know if I'm right but that's my guess.
You would be wrong. Embrace the Dark Chaos is instantaneous, it only checks whether your meet the criteria when it is cast. After that point the feat gained becomes just like any other feat.

[Keld Denar]

So the Chaos Shuffle can turn the feats stolen by Feat Leech into any permanent feat that you want.

This is the only part I question. You definitely possess feats with feat leach. You can definitely Chaos Shuffle them for other feats. What, however, makes the feats you shuffle in permanent? Where in the rules does it state that the feats shuffled in aren't subject to the end of the duration of the power? I know they are different, but this isn't computer programming where changing the name of the variable causes a bug that halts the code. Feat Leach allows you to have more feats than you are normally allowed to. When it ends, you have too many feats, and your excess feats should go away.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is the only part I question. You definitely possess feats with feat leach. You can definitely Chaos Shuffle them for other feats. What, however, makes the feats you shuffle in permanent? Where in the rules does it state that the feats shuffled in aren't subject to the end of the duration of the power? I know they are different, but this isn't computer programming where changing the name of the variable causes a bug that halts the code. Feat Leach allows you to have more feats than you are normally allowed to. When it ends, you have too many feats, and your excess feats should go away.

See above.

The Instantaneous duration on Embrace the Dark Chaos combined with the fact that spell qualification is only checked upon casting.

Embrace isn't modifying the Feat Leech power and thus isn't covered under it's rules.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, but Feat Leach says:"While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed.". When it ends, you lose the feats. You simply have more feats than you are allowed to have, and Feat Leach isn't there to allow you to keep them. So, they should go away because the power that binds them to you is gone, even if the feats themselves are different from the feats you origionally gained with Feat Leach.

Yea, I understand that Shun the Dark Chaos is instantaneous. Thats all well and good. Again, I don't have any problem with doing it. The problem I have is that when Feat Leach ends, you have no ability to keep the additional feats, as I see it. Since its your trick, the burden of proof is on you. Prove via some kind of rules citation or precident or even similar case that you get to keep the feats, and I'll believe it. Just saying "its instantaneous" isn't proof enough.

[Rubik]

If this does indeed work (and it's iffy, and doubtful if any DM ever would allow it), then it'd be easier just to get a psicrystal, stand within 5' of it, and continually cast DCFS spells, as you get Alertness, swap it out, and immediately get Alertness again. Repeat as desired.

It's even cheaper, since you don't have to manifest Feat Leech.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If this does indeed work (and it's iffy, and doubtful if any DM ever would allow it), then it'd be easier just to get a psicrystal, stand within 5' of it, and continually cast DCFS spells, as you get Alertness, swap it out, and immediately get Alertness again. Repeat as desired.

It's even cheaper, since you don't have to manifest Feat Leech.

Of course a DM wouldn't allow it.

[Gullintanni]

Shun the Dark Chaos is instantaneous.

From what I understand, Shun the Dark Chaos replaces one feat you have with another. This effect is instantaneous. The problem is that this only influences one condition of the feat.

For example, with Feat Leach you steal Power Attack. These are the conditions:

1 - You Possess;
2 - Power Attack;
3 - x Minutes where x = caster level.

After using Shun the Dark Chaos, the conditions become this:

1 - You Possess;
2 - Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell;
3 - x Minutes where x = caster level.

The change in condition two is instantaneous. Condition one is the prerequisite for condition two, and condition three is unmentioned by the chaos shuffle, and is therefore unchanged.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yea, but Feat Leach says:"While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed.". When it ends, you lose the feats. You simply have more feats than you are allowed to have, and Feat Leach isn't there to allow you to keep them. So, they should go away because the power that binds them to you is gone, even if the feats themselves are different from the feats you origionally gained with Feat Leach.

Yea, I understand that Shun the Dark Chaos is instantaneous. Thats all well and good. Again, I don't have any problem with doing it. The problem I have is that when Feat Leach ends, you have no ability to keep the additional feats, as I see it. Since its your trick, the burden of proof is on you. Prove via some kind of rules citation or precident or even similar case that you get to keep the feats, and I'll believe it. Just saying "its instantaneous" isn't proof enough.

Feat Leech gives you feat X.
Embrace the Dark Chaos strips you of feat X and gives you feat Y.
Feat Leech ends and strips you of feat X (which you no longer have).

Feat Leech doesn't strip the replaced feats because they are already gone.

[Gullintanni]

Feat Leech gives you feat X.
Embrace the Dark Chaos strips you of feat X and gives you feat Y.
Feat Leech ends and strips you of feat X (which you no longer have).

Feat Leech doesn't strip the replaced feats because they are already gone.

I would say that most DMs would see it differently.

Feat Leech gives you Feat X. You want Feat Y. As a result of Chaos, Feat Y becomes Feat X and Feat X becomes Feat Y. Then Feat Leech eliminates Feat X.

[Emperor Tippy]

Most DM's are irrelevant as this will never be used outside of TO, just like all of the other ways to get cheap feats from locations.

All that matters is the RAW, and by RAW Feat Leech can't strip the Chaos Shuffled feats. You can't strip an instantaneous effect.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I would say that most DMs would see it differently.

Most DMs would see Pun-Pun differently.

Most DMs would see Dark Chaos Shuffle differently.

Most DMs would see D2 Crusader differently.

Most DMs would see anything TO differently.

[Keld Denar]

All that matters is the RAW, and by RAW Feat Leech can't strip the Chaos Shuffled feats. You can't strip an instantaneous effect.

Again, show me RAW that says you get to keep the feat you leach.


When the power’s duration expires, you lose access to the feats

Which feats? Any feats you gained via the manifestation of Feat Leech. It doesn't matter if they are the same feat, or different feats, they are the feats you gained from Feat Leech. Thus, they should go away.

I still haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Just because the Chaos Shuffle has an instantaneous duration doesn't mean that everything dependant on them or that they depend on does.

[Psyren]

Which feats? Any feats you gained via the manifestation of Feat Leech. It doesn't matter if they are the same feat, or different feats, they are the feats you gained from Feat Leech. Thus, they should go away.

You could just as well argue though that the DCS feats are not the feats you gained via the manifestation of feat leech, and you'd be right. Those feats are already gone.

[Glimbur]

Heroics from Spell Compendium lasts ten times as long as feat leech and doesn't require psionics to use. It does require a somewhat esoteric material component, but as it has no listed cost it is found in a material component pouch. It only grants [fighter] feats but for purposes of dark chaos shuffling that should be fine.

More limiting is the 250 XP cost of both Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos but I'm sure there are ways around that: Dwemorkeeper and Su Transformation immediately springs to mind.

[Winds]

You know how to solve that part of the debate? Add permanency to the feat leech first. The effects of the ability are now permanent. Shuffle away!

[Emperor Tippy]

Which feats? Any feats you gained via the manifestation of Feat Leech. It doesn't matter if they are the same feat, or different feats, they are the feats you gained from Feat Leech. Thus, they should go away.
Incorrect. Those feats have already gone away, when Embrace the Dark Chaos removed them.

Feat Leech has a specific effect, it gives you specific feats for the duration. Embrace the Dark Chaos has a specific feat, it strips a feat that you have and replaces it with another. It's not modifying the Feat Leech spell, it's essentially using the Feat Leech provided feat as a material component for Embrace the Dark Chaos.


I still haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Just because the Chaos Shuffle has an instantaneous duration doesn't mean that everything dependant on them or that they depend on does.
Yes it does. Duration and spell criteria are checked once, when a spell is cast. The feat provided by Feat Leech has already gone away.

[Psyren]

You know how to solve that part of the debate? Add permanency to the feat leech first. The effects of the ability are now permanent. Shuffle away!

1) You probably mean Incarnate (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/incarnate.htm), as Feat Leech is a psionic power.

2) Feat Leech isn't on the list, but even if it was, it's not a personal range power.

3) Even if you get around all of that, you're one dispel away from losing all your leeched feats.

[Gullintanni]

Most DM's are irrelevant as this will never be used outside of TO, just like all of the other ways to get cheap feats from locations.

All that matters is the RAW, and by RAW Feat Leech can't strip the Chaos Shuffled feats. You can't strip an instantaneous effect.

The issue is that the RAW doesn't support keeping the feat. Chaos Shuffle may be an instantaneous effect, but all it does is change a out a feat for another one. It leaves the [Temporary] condition attached to the feat.

A = Feat
B = Duration

The sum of Feat Leech =
A (Feat X) + B (10 rounds)
Dark Chaos Shuffle changes that equation in the following way:

The sum of Feat Leech =
A (Feat Y:This Change is an instantaneous effect) + (B 10 rounds)

Dark Chaos Shuffle only targets the feat attached to component A of the equation out with another feat. It leaves the rest of the equation entirely alone. So, the change from Power Attack to Any other feat is a permanent change, unfortunately, the permanently changed feat disappears. All you're doing is changing the value of variable A.

[Psyren]

The issue is that the RAW doesn't support keeping the feat. Chaos Shuffle may be an instantaneous effect, but all it does is change a out a feat for another one. It leaves the [Temporary] condition attached to the feat.

There is no "[Temporary] condition" in RAW - you are houseruling.

This is the condition on the power ending:


During this same period, the target can make no use of the stolen feats. When the power’s duration expires, you lose access to the feats, and the target gains immediate use of them.

"you lose access to the feats" comes directly from the preceding clause "the stolen feats." You no longer have the stolen feats, hence you lose nothing.

[Gullintanni]

There is no "[Temporary] condition" in RAW - you are houseruling.

This is the condition on the power ending:

"you lose access to the feats" comes directly from the preceding clause "the stolen feats." You no longer have the stolen feats, hence you lose nothing.

Ugh, you're being pedantic. According to the dictionary, anything that has a duration that expires is temporary, ergo, every spell that ends has a temporary condition, 3.5 D&D simply doesn't use that language. I was trying to illustrate a point that you're trying to refute by citing linguistic preferences...but by definition, in this case, the terms temporary and duration are functionally identical.

And on the second point, it would really depend on the wording of Feat Leach I suppose. Still, you have a Feat. You only have that Feat because you stole it from your target.

If you stole a piece of wood from someone, and it was carved into the shape of a boat, and then you carved that wooden boat into the shape of a duck, then you still have a stolen piece of wood. By the same logic, you still have the stolen feat, you've just recarved it into a different feat.

[Psyren]

According to the dictionary,

There needs to be a law for this approach in RAW discussions, kind of like Godwins.

[Gullintanni]

There needs to be a law for this approach in RAW discussions, kind of like Godwins.

The issue at hand is that there is no special definition for the term "Duration" according to RAW. It's exactly what it says on the tin, therefore permitting synonyms to be used in place of the word Duration is acceptable.

EDIT: ...though for a term such as "Special Attack" or any of the other myriad words and phrases with specific definitions from WoTC, I do concur that inserting a dictionary definition in place of RAW would be houseruling.

Hmm...on a more in depth review of Feat Leech, I think the trick above does work, but not for the reasons being argued. The reason you don't lose the new feat is not because you don't have the old feat, but precisely because you do. The relevant clause is here:

"While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed."

The Dark Chaos shuffle doesn't end the power, which triggers the phrase, "While the power lasts". You lose the stolen feat as a result of Dark Chaos, but because the power hasn't ended, you are still treated as if you possess the stolen feat. When the power ends, you give it back as planned, but while the power is active, you're treated as if you possess the stolen feat, no matter what happens to it. If you perform the shuffle, then by my reading, you should have both the new feat and the shuffled feat. By RAW, the only way to get rid of the stolen feat is to end the power. At least so far as I can tell.

[Shadow Lord]

You can use any temporary creation spells to create material components. Think of this as doing just that; although the material components are going to disappear after X amount of time, a permanent spell would persist even after the material component is gone.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'll check KA's psitricks handbook for that one - if it's not there he can add it.

It's not, but it would certainly be welcome. It's T.O., so it would go with "Suck it Wizards! Su: Psi and You" once I've actually formatted the thing for handbook form. I'm over at Min/Max now, so I'll be working on getting the brainstorming thread from BG ported over, and then I'll need to get everything from both threads (the one here and the one at BG/Min/Max) and have them put to peer review, and then I can compile it and release it.





According to the dictionary,

There needs to be a law for this approach in RAW discussions, kind of like Godwins.


Psyren's Law:

As a CharOp discussion grows longer, the probability of a Semantic Argument being made approaches 1.

And if I may:


KA's Corollary to Psyren's Law:

A poster who accuses a fellow poster of being pedantic and then proceeds to make a Semantic Argument is being themselves pedantic.

[Psyren]

If you stole a piece of wood from someone, and it was carved into the shape of a boat, and then you carved that wooden boat into the shape of a duck, then you still have a stolen piece of wood. By the same logic, you still have the stolen feat, you've just recarved it into a different feat.

This is still poor logic regardless. To use your own example, I stole your piece of wood shaped like a boat, traded it for one shaped like a duck, and then you came around asking for your wooden boat back. Well, I don't have it anymore, and by RAW you can only ask me for a wooden boat.



And if I may:

Brilliant.

[Urpriest]

There needs to be a law for this approach in RAW discussions, kind of like Godwins.

But...but...think what that would do to Curmudgeon!

(Unless you mean applying a dictionary definition to things that have game definitions, which of course he doesn't do.)

[Jack_Simth]

You would be wrong. Embrace the Dark Chaos is instantaneous, it only checks whether your meet the criteria when it is cast. After that point the feat gained becomes just like any other feat.
If I make an Adamantine item with Major Creation, and then use Animate Object and Permanency to make it Permanently animated and under my command, how long does it last?

[Diefje]

Or kill the guy.

The way I'm reading it though, is that you never actually lose the "virtual" feat for the duration. "While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed...". Dark Chaos shuffle immediately removes a feat that you possess. Because the power still lasts, you are still treated as if you possessed the feat immediately after it is removed.

Unless of course it means you can crank out as many feats as you can for the duration of the power.

So the real question is how we treat the shuffle.
Linearly by action:
1) Feat X is stolen. Treated as if we possessed the feat X for duration.
2) Remove feat X, gain feat Y. Still treated as if we possessed feat X.
3) Remove feat X, gain feat Z. Still treated as if we possessed feat X.
4) ...etc....
Or by time:
1) Feat X is stolen. Treated as if we possessed the feat X for duration.
2) Remove feat X, but immediately upon removal, we still possess feat X, and we can conclude that it cannot be removed and thus feat X cannot be a candidate for the Dark Chaos shuffle.


It's a doozy

[dextercorvia]

If I make an Adamantine item with Major Creation, and then use Animate Object and Permanency to make it Permanently animated and under my command, how long does it last?

If I cast Alter Self on myself, and then take damage from an Orb of Fire, does the damage go away when I revert to my original form?

In other words, you are using a permanent spell when the original example is instantaneous.

[Calanon]

Incorrect.Those feats have already gone away, when Embrace the Dark Chaos removed them.

Feat Leech has a specific effect, it gives you specific feats for the duration. Embrace the Dark Chaos has a specific feat, it strips a feat that you have and replaces it with another. It's not modifying the Feat Leech spell, it's essentially using the Feat Leech provided feat as a material component for Embrace the Dark Chaos.


Yes it does. Duration and spell criteria are checked once, when a spell is cast. The feat provided by Feat Leech has already gone away.


Feat Leech
Clairsentience
Level: Psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2
Display: Mental and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3
You can use another’s psionic or metapsionic feats for yourself. You make a melee touch attack against a target. If successful, you immediately are familiar with the target’s psionic and metapsionic feats, if any, and you can choose a number of these feats to “leech” equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum one).

While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed. During this same period, the target can make no use of the stolen feats. When the power’s duration expires, you lose access to the feats, and the target gains immediate use of them. This transfer occurs regardless of the distance between you and the target.

If the duration of feat leech is extended by the use of a metapsionic feat, the target gains a Will saving throw every 10 minutes beyond the normal duration. If this save succeeds, the power’s duration ends. If the target is killed before the duration expires, you immediately lose the benefit of the stolen feats.

You cannot steal a feat for which you do not meet the prerequisites, if any. However, you can use a stolen feat as the prerequisite for another stolen feat.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

Just gonna put this right here... I'm gonna have to ask where your going to find a monster with enough psionic feats to steal for you to be satisfied