Problematic Feats

[Coidzor]

So I was thinking about schemes where one can buy feats for XP as well as shenanigans that one can use to acquire a rather large or even arbitrarily large number of feats and started pondering how many feats or feat combos out of the sea of them sufficiently alter the game so as to break it or just become problematic in running the game in general.

I know some of them are going to be like Leadership where they're problematic even when they're competing with the opportunity cost of being one of a normal 7 feat character's selections. Others, like the Incarnum feats, if one could somehow acquire a lot of them together, would allow one to meldshape on par with a totemist or incarnate with more variety possible, IIRC, aside from the exclusive chakra binds and class features those two get. And still others aren't necessarily problematic by themselves, like divine metamagic but are on the cusp and can become so when used in conjunction with other feats or items.

Whereas some feats, like Skill Focus, for instance, you couldn't upset the game if you had skill focus in every skill ever, as it requires more than just skill focus to break diplomacy and have diplomancy. Or the ones like Iron Will, which even WOTC realized it was ok for players to just out and out buy.

Of these, it's the second and third type I'm most interested in, as I'm trying to put together a robust set of houserules that alters the feat paradigm by making them more accessible, and I'd like to know what, if any, problem areas I'd be opening up just by having more feats on the table, although I am interested in finding out as many of the in and of themselves abusive/problematic feats just so I can decide if I want to alter them to be less so or scrap them in advance.

The closest thing to a compendium of problematic or abusive feats that I've been able to come across is the dirty tricks handbook, and while I'm confident I'd find several by looking into it, I doubt that all of the problematic ones are quite capable of breaking the game apart enough to have qualified.

[Fax Celestis]

Depends on what you call "problematic". Arcane Thesis? Shock Trooper? Sneak Attack of Opportunity? Natural Spell? Quicken Spell?

[Coidzor]

Depends on what you call "problematic". Arcane Thesis? Shock Trooper? Sneak Attack of Opportunity? Natural Spell? Quicken Spell?

Personally Arcane Thesis and Quicken Spell are the closest on their own merits. Shock Trooper I can never focus on the feat but the paradigm of mundane combat that encourages such things, so I've never been able to make up my mind there.

Natural Spell I don't personally find problematic, but I know others do, so it would certainly not be out of place mentioning.

I've never actually heard of Sneak Attack of Opportunity though. And that lack of encyclopedic knowledge is exactly why I'm poking the hornet's nest.

Though one of these days I'll be able to have a decent OP....x,x

[Fax Celestis]

Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#sneakAttackOfOpportunity). Really not that terrible, but some people...

Though, it does get pretty preposterous if you use it right.


Source: Dragon #340

You react to any drop in your opponents' guard with lightning speed.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: For any given opportunity in melee combat, you can make two attacks of opportunity. The second attack is at a -5 penalty, just like your second normal attack in any given round. You still cannot exceed your normal maximum number of attacks of opportunity in a round.


Source: Dragon #340

You react to any drop in your opponents' guard with blinding speed.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: For any given opportunity in melee combat, you can make three attacks of opportunity. The second attack is at a -5 penalty, just like your second normal attack in any given round. The third attack is at a -10 penalty, just like your third normal attack in any given round. You still cannot exceed your normal maximum number of attacks of opportunity in a round.

That's neither here nor there, though.

Lessee... Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Planar Touchstone all have their issues.

[Celebrochan]

Would you find feats that stack a problem?

For example...

Psionic Body gives a number of hit points per psionic feat you have

Many of the Aberrant feats from Lords of Madness also get better the more you have.

[hex0]

Psionic Body gives a number of hit points per psionic feat you have


Or Font of Inspiration, as it progresses the same.

[JaronK]

Font of Inspiration is an obvious one, to be sure. IIRC the Combat Vigor line of feats could be a bit much if you could get them all easily.

Metamagic feats and Metamagic reducers are an obvious qualifier for "this is gonna get broken." Combining Arcane Thesis with a bunch of cheap or no cost Metamagic feats, then throwing on a few high cost metamagics... that could result in some REALLY nasty spells. And lord knows the Shadowcraft Mage could get insane this way.

Extra Turning stacks with itself. DMM:Persist thus becomes pretty freaking crazy with so much powering it.

Extra Spell would be a godsend for Sorcerers if you could get a lot of it.

In general, many PrCs become a lot more attractive if feats are cheap, especially the bad ones (like Dodge and Iron Will) that are often prerequisites but usually useless (obviously, you can already get Iron Will on the cheap).

With Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos, even getting crappy feats free is super powerful. I'll take those free Skill Focuses on everything and change them into something good now, kthx!

JaronK

[hex0]

Having all the Draconic feats wouldn't be horrible either. Even Draconic Legacy wouldn't be such a buzz kill.

Where can you buy feats for XP? Houserule?

[Emperor Tippy]

Having all the Draconic feats wouldn't be horrible either. Even Draconic Legacy wouldn't be such a buzz kill.

Where can you buy feats for XP? Houserule?
You can already buy them with gold by RAW. Thank you magical locations.

[Infernalbargain]

Anything that stacks with itself.

Aside from what has already been mentioned like metamagic cheatery, is DC boosting. There are a lot of ways to boost DC's with feats in 3.5. Basically all those little +1 feats will start to stack to +yes if you can just shell out cash for it.

[Psyren]

Psionic Talent also stacks with itself. Each one you get gives you x+1 PP, where x is the PP the last one gave you. Stacked high enough, each one becomes equivalent to a 9th-level slot, then two, then...

[Fax Celestis]

Psionic Talent also stacks with itself. Each one you get gives you x+1 PP, where x is the PP the last one gave you. Stacked high enough, each one becomes equivalent to a 9th-level slot, then two, then...

MAAAAAAAAAATH (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187633) (scroll down to post #25)

[Coidzor]

Many of the Aberrant feats from Lords of Madness also get better the more you have.

There's the Aberration blooded feats and the Abyssal-descended ones(Abyssal Heritor?) that I recall along those lines. I saw a mention of some draconic-flavored ones, any others along that sort of line?

The incarnum family of feats seem like they take that to a minor level to the entirety of the system's feats...

[Lycar]

IIRC the Combat Vigor line of feats could be a bit much if you could get them all easily.

Because god beware if melee ever gets nice things... :smallconfused:

No really, given the prerequisites I don't really see an issue there.

Now stacking up on AoO abuse is another can of worms entirely.

Basically you should rate the feats for impact on the game. Skill feats are virtually worthless for anything but prerequisites, not because having a boost to a skill is a bad thing but because you can almost never afford to spend a precious feat slot on anything other then the 'must haves'.

If a feat is so good that it features prominently in many builds, it should come at a price. On the other hand, skill feats should be cheap. Maybe 250-500 xp or so per extra skill point they yield. With higher levels, the costs as well as the benefits become comparatively trivial but at lower levels they are still a nice boost.

As for feats that stack with themselves, just make ever additional instance cost base cost x time you take the feat. So 2nd time is 2x base price, 3rd is 3x and so on. Diminishing returns will keep that in check.

For Font of Inspiration I suggest something akin to price = base price to the power of times taken. 1 = 1, 2 = 4, 3 = 9 etc.

The Dark Chaos thing needs to be put up against a wall and shot of course.

[nedz]

Toughness
Seriously: this means you can buy HP
Toughness can be taken many times.

[Metahuman1]

I'm surprised Item Familiar has not been listed yet.

Or Dragon Fire Inspiration + Words of Creation, which turns he bard into a melee monster combined with Slippers of battle dancing.

[gorfnab]

Psionic Talent also stacks with itself. Each one you get gives you x+1 PP, where x is the PP the last one gave you. Stacked high enough, each one becomes equivalent to a 9th-level slot, then two, then...
It can get down right sick in E6. Play a Psion, Ardent, or Pyschic Warrior in E6. Take Psionic Body at 1st level. Then start taking Psionic Talent and Expanded Knowledge feats as your other feats. Laugh at the miniscule number of spells per day of the vancian spellcasters.

[Coidzor]

Basically you should rate the feats for impact on the game. Skill feats are virtually worthless for anything but prerequisites, not because having a boost to a skill is a bad thing but because you can almost never afford to spend a precious feat slot on anything other then the 'must haves'.

That is my foremost interest, really, which ones have so much impact on the game that they should be regulated to solely obtainable through leveling.


If a feat is so good that it features prominently in many builds, it should come at a price. On the other hand, skill feats should be cheap. Maybe 250-500 xp or so per extra skill point they yield. With higher levels, the costs as well as the benefits become comparatively trivial but at lower levels they are still a nice boost.

I have been considering something along those lines for expanding the skills available to each character, I must admit...


As for feats that stack with themselves, just make ever additional instance cost base cost x time you take the feat. So 2nd time is 2x base price, 3rd is 3x and so on. Diminishing returns will keep that in check.

For Font of Inspiration I suggest something akin to price = base price to the power of times taken. 1 = 1, 2 = 4, 3 = 9 etc.

Seems fair enough on the surface for at least some of them.

[Ravens_cry]

It is rarely a single feat, in my opinion, but the combination that is most often problematic.
After all, D&D has more combinational possibilities than the number of particles in the Universe. Some of them are going to be broken.

[Malachei]

I agree. Of those potentially problematic in combination, Leap Attack comes to mind (with Shock Trooper and Pounce). Also, Improved Trip builds can be a pain. Still, melee needs the love, and if you can trust your players not to go for CO-like optimized builds, then it is not a big deal.

In Unearthed Arcana (it is in the SRD), there are rules for Flaws and Traits. You might want to look into the Traits section, as well.

[Coidzor]

It is rarely a single feat, in my opinion, but the combination that is most often problematic.
After all, D&D has more combinational possibilities than the number of particles in the Universe. Some of them are going to be broken.

Hence why I'd like to pick y'all's brains on the matter. To see what problems could arise from such a situation from the first impression someone got from the idea, which off the cuff responses of those fairly well-versed in the system should emulate to some extent.

Sure, we can't think of everything, but I've found people's responses informative so far.