Help! Magic Fixes!

[Gamer Girl]

Ok...so last weekend I ran a new game for some new players. Everyone agreed they wanted a high magic setting, and everyone put lots of work into things over the week. And then we get to the game. Everything went fine for the first 20 minutes or so...and then all chaos broke loose.

Every player started with all sorts of 'tricks'. Like the shrink item on a wall of iron and then drop it on the bad guys castle from orbit. Like making anti-mater. Like crazy warlock stuff. And on and on. Needless to say we did not get much playing done, as people spun off on topics of what a spell could do or not do and magic items and such and the rules and on and on.

Now my world is Heavily Homebrewed, I use all the 2E magic restrictions and penalties. And I have the big spells, like Gate, covered in my rules. But there seems to be so much more......

So....HELP! What are all the Broken Spells? or spells that can be Abused? or Misused? Or whatever in D&D? I need a list of the spells, and what is wrong with them, so they can be fixed and added to the houserules. Also I know little about Warlocks, so what stuff can they pull off that need to be fixed?

[Drogorn]

You should read the following:

The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007)
and
The Tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293)

These will tell you what you need to know about high magic play.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would go through each and every handbook of the classes that the characters are playing. EVERY handbook.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0

And look at the suggested spells and options for the *specific classes* the people are playing, and decide which of those you want to allow in.

Unfortunately, since there are thousands of spells, no one has come up with a specific list of broken spells and fixes, especially since different games prefer different power levels...

[Doc Roc]

Orrrr there's Legend.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea. Try Legend?

[TroubleBrewing]

+1 to trying Legend.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

What's Legend?

[Doc Roc]

This (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220977) is Legend.

[Shadow Lord]

If he's advertising Legend, then I'll come in and say that, although it won't fix everything, you should try out Pathfinder. Although Legend is nice and all, Pathfinder really does help by wiping the slate of alot of the broken stuff, although the broken from Core is still mostly broken in Pathfinder. Give it a try, you'll like it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If he's advertising Legend, then I'll come in and say that, although it won't fix everything, you should try out Pathfinder. Although Legend is nice and all, Pathfinder really does help by wiping the slate of alot of the broken stuff, although the broken from Core is still mostly broken in Pathfinder. Give it a try, you'll like it.

Most of the broken stuff is in core, and PF doesn't fix that except for battlefield controls, which were much less of a problem than Planar Ally and Planar Binding, and just the amount of spell slots full casters get. The non-core broken stuff is Mindrape, Shivering Touch, and Power Word: Pain.

[Doc Roc]

If he's advertising Legend, then I'll come in and say that, although it won't fix everything, you should try out Pathfinder. Although Legend is nice and all, Pathfinder really does help by wiping the slate of alot of the broken stuff, although the broken from Core is still mostly broken in Pathfinder. Give it a try, you'll like it.

Before using Pathfinder, please check with your doctor, as Pathfinder is not for everyone. Pathfinder does not replace long-term treatment options for issues of class balance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199228), and if symptoms persist for more than seven errata, please consult a specialist.

[Urpriest]

Most of the broken stuff is in core, and PF doesn't fix that except for battlefield controls, which were much less of a problem than Planar Ally and Planar Binding, and just the amount of spell slots full casters get. The non-core broken stuff is Mindrape, Shivering Touch, and Power Word: Pain.

They also mostly fix Polymorph et al. And many of the core creatures you could summon are less useful (I think Titans can't be used to chain-gate anymore). That said, there's still enough power in summoning to make an otherwise extremely limited Summoner a solid Tier 2.

[Shadow Lord]

Doc Roc, I'm sure that if anyone were to take the time to seriously try to break your game, they would be able to break as much as in Pathfinder. The difference is that you're arguing that Pathfinder doesn't fix anything, but, if you incorporate Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat, it bumps up practically everything to Tier 4-3. So, your claims that it doesn't fix class balance are, although partially true, mostly false, because of the Archetypes introduced in their newest three supplements.

And that's before you take into consideration the fact that Paizo has already stated that it has a revision of high level play in the works.

[Flickerdart]

Doc Roc, I'm sure that if anyone were to take the time to seriously try to break your game, they would be able to break as much as in Pathfinder.
Hehe.

You are, of course, welcome to try.

[Shadow Lord]

Hehe.

You are, of course, welcome to try.

I'm not exactly the best at optimization, Flickerdart, but that remark itself really does seem rather arrogant. At least Paizo realizes that high-level play needs to be worked on.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uhm. Yea, some really hardcore optimizers and math types have tried to make Legend balanced. I can't really break it, and I've been doing this sort of thing for years...

[Doc Roc]

Doc Roc, I'm sure that if anyone were to take the time to seriously try to break your game, they would be able to break as much as in Pathfinder. The difference is that you're arguing that Pathfinder doesn't fix anything, but, if you incorporate Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat, it bumps up practically everything to Tier 4-3. So, your claims that it doesn't fix class balance are, although partially true, mostly false, because of the Archetypes introduced in their newest three supplements.

And that's before you take into consideration the fact that Paizo has already stated that it has a revision of high level play in the works.

I'm not claiming anything. I'm linking to a systematic proof that core isn't as much improved as it should be. I'm actually EXTREMELY fond of most of Pathfinder... except... except core.

And with all due respect, find me a break in Legend, and we'll fix it. The last major loophole got patched in less than 20 minutes.

[TroubleBrewing]

I witnessed some of the attempts at breaking it. I'd recommend Legend over Pathfinder any day, and that goes double if you're concerned about balance.

[Urpriest]

Hehe.

You are, of course, welcome to try.

Easy.

1. Wait for Legend to be popular, to the point that Doc Roc makes a significant amount of money off it.

2. Wait for Doc Roc to become lazy, and hire less qualified people to write sourcebooks.

3. 3.5 all over again! (Minus the "core is already broken" element, of course).

With a game that modular, it's just a matter of time...

[Doc Roc]

Easy.

1. Wait for Legend to be popular, to the point that Doc Roc makes a significant amount of money off it.

2. Wait for Doc Roc to become lazy, and hire less qualified people to write sourcebooks.

3. 3.5 all over again! (Minus the "core is already broken" element, of course).

With a game that modular, it's just a matter of time...

All proceeds for Core go to charity, actually.

[Shadow Lord]

I'm not claiming anything. I'm linking to a systematic proof that core isn't as much improved as it should be. I'm actually EXTREMELY fond of most of Pathfinder... except... except core.

I'm really fond of Legends, too, I'm just saying that, if you take the time to look, every game is going to be broken somewhere. And, in practically ever game, you'll find the most broken things in Core.

[Doc Roc]

I'm really fond of Legends, too, I'm just saying that, if you take the time to look, every game is going to be broken somewhere. And, in practically ever game, you'll find the most broken things in Core.

I disagree. With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow. The belief that Pencil and Paper RPGs are somehow immune to the standards and values that other games are held to is preposterous at best.

Certainly, Legend will break. Certainly, we will fix it. If material cannot be fixed, it will be cut.

[Big Fau]

At least Paizo realizes that high-level play needs to be worked on.

When did this happen?


You are, of course, welcome to try.

They did not fix the system, they put a band-aid over a cancerous growth. It's still easy to break Pathfinder, even with the "nerfs" they provided (seriously, nerfing spells below 5th level was not nearly enough).

Core PF is largely as broken as Core 3.5. They just added in a few hundred pages to make it less obvious (and forgot to mention that those pages are from the DMG).

[Hiro Protagonest]

At least Paizo realizes that high-level play needs to be worked on.

No. They're bowing down to pressure. A lot of the people who actually provided criticism of Paizo's creations were banned from the boards. And it's proven that it was because of criticism, since Big Fau said when he was banned, he looked through his posts to see which ones were scrubbed. Now Paizo's trying to appease people.

Edit: this thread moves fast.

[Shadow Lord]

I'd maintain that every game ever has something broken, somewhere, if it allows customization.

Also, I don't believe that Paizo banned every single person who provided criticism for the system. Maybe a few people, but I'd also argue that those were because of what seemed like trolling to the Paizo folks.

And I would believe it alot more if you provide me with proof that the people were banned specifically for their criticism.

[Doc Roc]

I'd maintain that every game ever has something broken, somewhere, if it allows customization.


"What power would Hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of Heaven?"

[Shadow Lord]

"What power would Hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of Heaven?"

None! Without Heaven, we have no reflection; no opposite that we can compare to. No FATAL! :smallbiggrin:

[wayfare]

@GamerGirl: If you are still interested in using 3.5 for your game after this discussion, here are a few suggestions:

1) Use pathfinder summoning rules. Use the Giant's Polymorph rules

2) Metamagic is not the only problem with magic, but it ups the abuse from campaign defeating to world shattering. Its problematic to ban it outright, but in some cases that can have a real impact.

3) Teleportation is very op. Miss chance with teleportation is a good thing -- it makes it very risky to use.

4) Fly is awful if you have characters with lower power levels. if everyone is T1 to T2, then its no big thing.

5) Rope Trick, and the related idea that you can rest at any point without repercussions to regain all resources is a bad thing. Adventuring is Dangerous, and the ability to eliminate that danger is a bad thing.

6) Intent abuse is also a problem sometimes (though it can be fun at times as well). If a spell like shrink item is designed to make things more portable, as a sort of stealth system, using that power to bash your foes with walls of iron abuses the intent of the spell. Try to figure out an in-world way the spell might not work as intended (maybe you have to be holding the item to return it to its normal size. Maybe it takes time for the item to expand -- 10% of its total mass per round might be a start).

7) Dont allow summoned creatures the ability to summon other creatures. Its just a pain.

8) Ask your players to play the Tier 3 versions of their class (if any). These classes can feel very high-powered without breaking the game into little pieces.

9) As a last resort, remember that the enemy is just as smart and resourceful as the PCs. If players are dropping walls of iron from orbit, the lich king can use a locate city bomb.

10) The travel domain, along with celerity and most other action enhancers just need to be removed. Much of the power of T1 classes comes from breaking action economy -- they get 3 actions for the enemies 1.

Hope this helps

[Gavinfoxx]

Trailblazer is also okay at 3.5e balance... it's a bit better than Pathfinder...

[wayfare]

Right forgot to add: remove major creation and fabricate -- these spells will break the campaign world. The ability to create something from nothing is only ok if there is a timer.

[wayfare]

Trailblazer is also okay at 3.5e balance... it's a bit better than Pathfinder...

Trailblazer, really? Thats what its called? So they just decided "hey, pathfinder's taken, whats the next best thing?"

[Gavinfoxx]

I think it actually started being made before pathfinder started to be worked on. I think. Maybe? I heard that from somewhere...

[navar100]

The spells are not your problem. The spellcasting classes are not your problem. Your problem is your players are munchkins, or at the least are just currently in a munchkin mood.

Tell your players to get over themselves and play responsibly. It's fine to be powerful. It's munchkin to hypothesize creating anti-matter.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not exactly the best at optimization, Flickerdart, but that remark itself really does seem rather arrogant. At least Paizo realizes that high-level play needs to be worked on.
Of course it's arrogant. If I didn't imply that it couldn't be done, nobody would want to do it, and then we couldn't fix it.

[Malachei]

Before using Pathfinder, please check with your doctor, as Pathfinder is not for everyone. Pathfinder does not replace long-term treatment options for issues of class balance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199228), and if symptoms persist for more than seven errata, please consult a specialist.

Reading this made me smile.

But how does the thread's Legend / Pathfinder discussion address the OP's question?

I don't think the OP wants to try several different systems to deal with the issue... at least I hope so. Personally, I believe that a system can't fix a game.

If you, as a DM, have a bunch of wild-running optimizers wreaking havoc on your campaign world, I think it is your role as the DM to come up with the appropriate in-world answer -- even if that means making them suffer.

If you feel like you have to design a special variant of the rules to be playable with the group, you can discuss their playing style and character design with them on a meta level. I've been playing with a group of very rules-savvy people, but there is a consensus not to abuse things. There is also an ongoing consensus about what constitutes abuse. We have a very short list of things actually banned (Shivering Touch comes to mind). If you want a list of what is arguably broken, a google search may prove more helpful than a question in a thread. Because it has been discussed countless times, and whereas here you'll only get a small random sample of opinions, a search for the old threads will get you a much larger sample. Plus you don't get your thread derailed. :)

This approach may solve your issue quicker than messing with the rules, a project which tends to develop a life of its own, take away from your game time and might be never-ending. Then, a year later, you'll be the next one advertising their Better-Balanced-Homebrew-Systems-Fix.

[Urpriest]

Out of game solutions won't work. I know, this is usually the opposite of the correct answer, but bear with me:

The OP's players asked for a high-magic game. The OP acquiesced. That means that both parties have agreed to a game in which people take a munchkinly, rules-exploity mindset, because that's how the genre works. (High magic is invariably either a setting of very powerful people or a cyberpunkesque setting of very weak people, and the latter seems like it isn't the goal of anyone involved, OP or players). The OP therefore can't be worried about the munchkin mindset per se, but about munchkins accomplishing things that they're not prepared to counter. So this is actually the sort of problem to be solved with houserules, and not a gentleman's agreement, since the whole point is to establish rigid parameters within which the players can optimize.

[wayfare]

Why is it so hard for folks to toss out a few spells that they think are broken? I get that this is an issue with the system and with players play styles, but assuming that gamer girl

1) Wants to keep playing with the 3.5 Chassis

and

2) Wants to keep playing with her friends

Why is it so hard to say: "Hey, you know, this one time I DMed, this spell combo was a real pain."

You guys are giving great answers, deep answers, but I've asked this question a time or two myself, and answers like "play another game" or "tell your players not to be munchkins" are not satisfying. They don't really touch on the OPs question.

Yes, other systems do it better. But not everybody wants to buy a new book. Not everybody can afford to do it.

/rant

Folks, you are brilliant. You can come up with incredible optimization tricks within minutes of a thread posting. Lets just put that experience in reverse and pop out the things that are gamebreaking.

[Flickerdart]

The reason that magic is powerful isn't that there are broken spell combinations. It's that there are many broken spell combinations, many broken spells, many broken metamagic reducers for those spells...and then there are many spells that are not broken, but simply really powerful, and where do we draw the line?

"Don't be a ****" is the fastest and most painless way to fix this, and won't encourage your players to look for loopholes in the ban list.

[Doc Roc]

The reason that magic is powerful isn't that there are broken spell combinations. It's that there are many broken spell combinations, many broken spells, many broken metamagic reducers for those spells...and then there are many spells that are not broken, but simply really powerful, and where do we draw the line?

"Don't be a ****" is the fastest and most painless way to fix this, and won't encourage your players to look for loopholes in the ban list.

You could try that + the old ToS ban list, which might help some.

[Gamer Girl]

Why is it so hard for folks to toss out a few spells that they think are broken? I get that this is an issue with the system and with players play styles, but assuming that gamer girl

1) Wants to keep playing with the 3.5 Chassis

and

2) Wants to keep playing with her friends

Why is it so hard to say: "Hey, you know, this one time I DMed, this spell combo was a real pain."

You guys are giving great answers, deep answers, but I've asked this question a time or two myself, and answers like "play another game" or "tell your players not to be munchkins" are not satisfying. They don't really touch on the OPs question.

Yes, other systems do it better. But not everybody wants to buy a new book. Not everybody can afford to do it.

/rant

Folks, you are brilliant. You can come up with incredible optimization tricks within minutes of a thread posting. Lets just put that experience in reverse and pop out the things that are gamebreaking.

Thanks Wayfare for being the only one that seems to understand.

1.We all like D&D, and 3x just fine. We don't want to go buy and learn a whole another game. Even if we could all afford the core rules of whatever, it would leave us with very, very, very few options as no game comes close to the amount of stuff we all have for 3X. I alone have two bookshelfs full of 3X books.

2.My game is already a mix of 1e/2e/3x/Pathfinder as I mix all the rules I like together.

3.I don't want to 'toss out' any spells, just tweak them all. For example my Gate fix is easy and simple:You can't control the creature you gate in with the 'gate' spell. Simple and easy and it works.

4. I love powerful magic, as do all my players. We want to have a 'reasonable' game with high magic. But without the silly/crazy/broken rules. We are all fine with killer spell combos and such, just not the 'mistakes' in the rules. We don't want to do the 'oh, I won't do that', we want it in the rules what you can and can't do. To continue the Gate example, I use all the old 2E Planescape outsider control spells. So you can control something you Gate in, just not with the 'Gate' spell itself.

5.So yes, lets see all the optimization tricks you have......

[Doc Roc]

5.So yes, lets see all the optimization tricks you have......

No, find someone else. I'm just not interested in rehashing ten years of optimization because you won't read handbooks and guides. Here's the ban-list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8399975&postcount=2) I use.

[Caphi]

2.My game is already a mix of 1e/2e/3x/Pathfinder as I mix all the rules I like together.

If you're already running on "whatever my favorite rules are", why do you need any more help to make the game run however you want?

[bloodtide]

Gate, Shapechange, Timestop and Astral Projection are the big 9th level spells too look at and fix in core.

Any Polymorph-type spell needs to be looked at.

You will need to modify Teleport.

What else can you tell us about the game?

[TroubleBrewing]

Scroll down to the results from GiTP and that should get you started. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=D%26D+3.5+Broken+spells)

[FearlessGnome]

Like the shrink item on a wall of iron and then drop it on the bad guys castle from orbit. Like making anti-mater. Like crazy warlock stuff. And on and on.

When I first read that I read anti-water. I read through the thread thinking I'd ask how the heck they made anti-water. The world is a little bit more gray now that I see they didn't.

[Doc Roc]

When I first read that I read anti-water. I read through the thread thinking I'd ask how the heck they made anti-water. The world is a little bit more gray now that I see they didn't.

Is anti-water technically just anti-hydrogen bonded to anti-oxygen? Does antimatter actually form higher elements like oxygen? If so, and if you could get citations to that effect, and if anti-matter produces elements that are chemically identical, you could comfortably suggest that anti-water is chemically a type of water.


And then everything goes to hell forever.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Like crazy warlock stuff. And on and on.

Also I know little about Warlocks, so what stuff can they pull off that need to be fixed?Proof that everyone that who posted just got trolled.


people who actually provided criticism ... were banned from the boards.Man, that sounds so familia