Largest Area power in 4e?

[The_Ditto]

Ok, just chatting with a friend, and we're curious:

PHB Pg 168: Legion's Hold (wizard 29 daily).
Close Burst 20 (each enemy in burst).

Is this the largest area power in the game? or is there anything else that can nail an area anywhere close to 41x41 squares and target each enemy, or even each creature ???

The next closest I saw, were Close Burst 10's (Binding Invocation of Chains - Level 1 Invoker Daily!!) ... as well as some other Invoker powers.

Any ideas?

The followup question: What ways are there to make them bigger? (ie feats, paragon Paths? etc?)
(just a curiosity exercise)
Thanks!

[Mando Knight]

Legion's Hold deals damage, and so it can be Expanded. However, the prize for largest area power goes to a monster: Tiamat's recharging Chromatic Breath is a Close Burst 30, and since she's Huge, that means it covers a whopping 63x63 square. Not counting her own space, she incinerates 3960 squares with one Standard Action. On the ground level. If you turn it into 3D cubes, it covers 250020 cubes, not counting her own space.

In other words, you'd best find some cover, as otherwise Chromatic Breath is a "area = yes" power.

[NecroRebel]

Enlarge Spell can increase the size of Wizard at-will and encounter power bursts and blasts by 1. Resounding Thunder increases the size of any thunder power's bursts and blasts by 1. The Archspell epic destiny allows you to turn 1 daily power into an encounter power at level 30. So, if you took the Archspell epic destiny, you could choose Legion's Hold as your signature spell and use it as an encounter power, thus allowing you to make it be a close burst 21 instead of 20. If there were a way to turn it into a thunder power, such as Arcane Admixture, you could then make it a close burst 22. And, if you were to multiclass Swordmage for the Giant's Might utility power, you'd also be large-sized, so your burst would cover a 46x46 area.



...But I think Mando's comment about Tiamat is probably going to win the contest. Close burst 30 is tough to beat.

[kieza]

I think there's a Ranger power that's a close burst weapon; using a Distance greatbow with Far Shot, that's close burst 30+, and if the DM lets you use the second range increment (which is debatable), it's closer to 55+.

[Vknight]

I can top Keiza's.
'God's Eye Sniper Rifle' apart of the Amethyst setting source book. With increased ranges it can hit things up to 135squares away.
Since you can take it as a superior weapon that's a close burst 135! So 271squares around you.
Their is also a 'Stalker' 29daily which lets you target everything in range and each ally gets to do the same with their own weapons.

[DragonBaneDM]

I can top Keiza's.
'God's Eye Sniper Rifle' apart of the Amethyst setting source book. With increased ranges it can hit things up to 135squares away.
Since you can take it as a superior weapon that's a close burst 135! So 271squares around you.
Their is also a 'Stalker' 29daily which lets you target everything in range and each ally gets to do the same with their own weapons.

Ehhh I dunno if this counts, VKnight, haha. Good attempt though buddy. =D

I'm going with Hail of Arrows while you're hoisting up a Greatbow and Far Shot. I think that'd make it Close burst 35? Maybe 40. I dunno the feat, though.

Booyah! EDIT: Though I'm quasi-ninja'd in booyahing...

[Surrealistik]

Tiamat honestly makes no sense to me. What business does she have being obviously more powerful than greater deities? Someone totally went fanboi with her design.

[tcrudisi]

I'll go with a level 1 at-will power.

Rapid Shot (Hunter)- attack everything within range. Since the range on a greatbow is 50, add in some things like Far Shot (+5) and Distance weapon (+10) and you are up a range of 65. I'm sure you can probably stack more things, but I don't feel like searching for them. So now you've got an at-will that lets you attack everything within 65 squares (including yourself!).

Since the only req. is Dex 13 for Far Shot and Distance is a level 1 enchantment, it's entirely reasonable for someone to be able to do this at level 1. Their allies won't like it, but they can do it.

Gotta love RAW. :smalltongue:

Although, technically, this isn't a close or area burst. It's simply "attack everything within range with a RBA" ... but I figure it qualifies for your question. :smallbiggrin:

[Meta]

I'll go with a level 1 at-will power.

Rapid Shot (Hunter)- attack everything within range. Since the range on a greatbow is 50, add in some things like Far Shot (+5) and Distance weapon (+10) and you are up a range of 65. I'm sure you can probably stack more things, but I don't feel like searching for them. So now you've got an at-will that lets you attack everything within 65 squares (including yourself!).

Since the only req. is Dex 13 for Far Shot and Distance is a level 1 enchantment, it's entirely reasonable for someone to be able to do this at level 1. Their allies won't like it, but they can do it.

Gotta love RAW. :smalltongue:

Although, technically, this isn't a close or area burst. It's simply "attack everything within range with a RBA" ... but I figure it qualifies for your question. :smallbiggrin:

This relies on a very liberal interpretation as the power doesn't read 'everything within range" as you state, but rather: You make a ranged basic attack with a weapon against each creature in or adjacent to a square within the attack's range.

Your way of reading it is valid, but I would say Hail of Arrows is much more clear on what it intends, so is a better fit for this.

(And really, they already had a power that does what you say this one does, so why make the wording more complicated if that's what they intended and 26 levels lower? Not buying it, haha.)

[OracleofWuffing]

So now you've got an at-will that lets you attack everything within 65 squares (including yourself!).
The fun part here, is that even if you interpret the power the "other" way... You can still shoot yourself with a greatbow. :smallbiggrin:

[tcrudisi]

This relies on a very liberal literal interpretation as the power doesn't read 'everything within range" as you state, but rather: You make a ranged basic attack with a weapon against each creature in or adjacent to a square within the attack's range.

Fixed that for you. :smalltongue: Also, I know there are two ways of reading the power. I just like mine better because, well, it lets me beat a god in a challenge at level 1.


The fun part here, is that even if you interpret the power the "other" way... You can still shoot yourself with a greatbow. :smallbiggrin:

Hehehe. It's so silly. Now, I wonder if there's a way to combine it with elemental damage to recharge dragon breath. I'm sure there is, I'm just too lazy to look. "I shoot myself with my greatbow so that I can breathe. I lost count of the number of times that I did this once I shot off all my toes. :smallfrown:"

[The_Ditto]

However, the prize for largest area power goes to a monster: Tiamat's recharging Chromatic Breath is a Close Burst 30,

wow, neat - however, my bad, I should have clarified, "powers available to PCs" :smalltongue:

But wow, that's big :)



I think there's a Ranger power that's a close burst weapon; using a Distance greatbow with Far Shot, that's close burst 30+, and if the DM lets you use the second range increment (which is debatable), it's closer to 55+.

Neat trick, I'm going to check that out :)



I can top Keiza's.
'God's Eye Sniper Rifle' apart of the Amethyst setting source book.

Never heard of it ?? This sounds like a third party source? I can swallow Dragon/Dungeon source (barely), but this I've never of, sorry :smalltongue:



I'll go with a level 1 at-will power.

Rapid Shot (Hunter)- attack everything within range. Since the range on a greatbow is 50, add in some things like Far Shot (+5) and Distance weapon (+10) and you are up a range of 65
[snip]
Although, technically, this isn't a close or area burst. It's simply "attack everything within range with a RBA" ... but I figure it qualifies for your question. :smallbiggrin:

Not burst, but you're right, I'll take it, the net effect is the same :smallbiggrin:
Thanks!


What source is enlarge spell? I can't find it in the builder?


Can't find rapid shot, either??

[tcrudisi]

Rapid Shot is from one of the Essentials PHB's (heroes of the ... books). It's a Hunter at-will.

Enlarge Spell is Wizard only. I have no idea what source it is from (perhaps Arcane Power?), but if you create a level 1 Wizard, it should be there. Because I always forget what the pre-req's are, I put all my stats at 18 to make sure there's not some obscure stat requirement. (For example, Enlarge Spell might require Wis 13 or something ... I really don't remember.)

[The_Ditto]

Rapid Shot is from one of the Essentials PHB's (heroes of the ... books). It's a Hunter at-will.

Enlarge Spell is Wizard only. I have no idea what source it is from (perhaps Arcane Power?), but if you create a level 1 Wizard, it should be there. Because I always forget what the pre-req's are, I put all my stats at 18 to make sure there's not some obscure stat requirement. (For example, Enlarge Spell might require Wis 13 or something ... I really don't remember.)

Thanks, found Enlarge spell, Wizard + Wis 13. I must have missed it first pass.

I'll check the Rapid shot later (my version of the builder on this pc doesn't have the latest updates *sigh* )

[Mando Knight]

Never heard of it ?? This sounds like a third party source? I can swallow Dragon/Dungeon source (barely), but this I've never of, sorry :smalltongue:
It's third party.

[The Reverend]

Doesn't a mindwarp staff double the size of an area attack if its psionic?

[Mando Knight]

Doesn't a mindwarp staff double the size of an area attack if its psionic?

...No. It increases the range of all Ranged and Area powers used through the Staff by 2, but does not affect the Area's size. It also increases the damage dealt by psychic powers used through the staff.

[LudiDrizzt]

I'm almost positive Tiamat's attack is Close blast, not close burst, as it's a breath attack, not a presence ability.

If not, that makes very little sense, but it would indeed be the biggest. Otherwise Legion's Hold wins in size.

[Mando Knight]

I'm almost positive Tiamat's attack is Close blast, not close burst, as it's a breath attack, not a presence ability.

If not, that makes very little sense, but it would indeed be the biggest. Otherwise Legion's Hold wins in size.

It's Close Burst. I've checked. Multiple times.

[LudiDrizzt]

That's...gotta be a typo. Doesn't the aspect have like d20 damage at one point?

[Mando Knight]

That's...gotta be a typo. Doesn't the aspect have like d20 damage at one point?
That was updated. Tiamat herself is just a nigh-unstoppable goddess of destruction.

[Hidden Sanity]

I'm almost positive Tiamat's attack is Close blast, not close burst, as it's a breath attack, not a presence ability.

If not, that makes very little sense, but it would indeed be the biggest. Otherwise Legion's Hold wins in size.

It's Tiamat. How many directions can she aim her breath weapon in at once, do you think?

[Vknight]

5.
Yeah 5 different way

[Yakk]

Tiamat honestly makes no sense to me. What business does she have being obviously more powerful than greater deities? Someone totally went fanboi with her design.
Tiamat is a deity, just like Bahamut? (in the default cosmology)

[Surrealistik]

Tiamat is a deity, just like Bahamut? (in the default cosmology)

But she's only an intermediate power, even in 4e. Meanwhile, she's stated out to be obviously and substantially more deadly/challenging than Lolth and Bahamut; both greater deities.

[Mando Knight]

But she's only an intermediate power, even in 4e.

In Forgotten Realms, perhaps, but being posed as Bahamut's opposite points toward her being about the same level of power as the other evil deities mentioned in the DMG for the standard points-of-light setting. Sure, someone went overboard with her design, but she's also the first deity with published 4e stats. Vecna also has a fairly broken ability (both ways. His aura is deadly... unless you're undead, in which case it heals you), and he was the second...

[Surrealistik]

In Forgotten Realms, perhaps, but being posed as Bahamut's opposite points toward her being about the same level of power as the other evil deities mentioned in the DMG for the standard points-of-light setting. Sure, someone went overboard with her design, but she's also the first deity with published 4e stats. Vecna also has a fairly broken ability (both ways. His aura is deadly... unless you're undead, in which case it heals you), and he was the second...

Pretty sure Bahamut and Tiamat's designs were developed at the same or roughly the same time, and the former comes off as a bad joke relative to the latter.

Further, from what I understand, Bahamut is a greater deity while Tiamat remains only intermediate, in spite of their rivalry; I cannot find a source to the contrary.

As for Vecna's aura, it exists to compensate for his lack of multiple turns (or at least that's what I assume). It's not so bad if you can dominate him, and make him deactivate it, or otherwise shut it down/break its line of effect/qualify as undead (easier than ever thanks to the Vampirism feat).

[WitchSlayer]

Pretty sure Bahamut and Tiamat's designs were developed at the same or roughly the same time, and the former comes off as a bad joke relative to the latter.

Further, from what I understand, Bahamut is a greater deity while Tiamat remains only intermediate, in spite of their rivalry; I cannot find a source to the contrary.

As for Vecna's aura, it exists to compensate for his lack of multiple turns (or at least that's what I assume). It's not so bad if you can dominate him, and make him deactivate it, or otherwise shut it down/break its line of effect/qualify as undead (easier than ever thanks to the Vampirism feat).

I dunno, being able to summon seven elder gold dragons is pretty formidable if you're using the Old Man With Seven Canaries version of Bahamut.

[Surrealistik]

I dunno, being able to summon seven elder gold dragons is pretty formidable if you're using the Old Man With Seven Canaries version of Bahamut.

By the time you're out godslaying (L30 with pimp gear), the gold dragons he can summon are basically laughable (34 all defenses, +27 attack bonus, 16.5 average damage, single target attacks), and furthermore take a full standard action apiece to summon on a solo that doesn't have multiple turns.

[Treblain]

The Dark Pact Warlock powers Cursebite (LVL 1) and Cursegrind (LVL 13) are Close Burst 20 encounter powers, but they only target enemies that have been cursed. There are lots of ways to get out a lot of Warlock's Curses quickly, and you can have multiple warlocks doing the cursing.

[Mando Knight]

By the time you're out godslaying (L30 with pimp gear), the gold dragons he can summon are basically laughable (34 all defenses, +27 attack bonus, 16.5 average damage, single target attacks), and furthermore take a full standard action apiece to summon on a solo that doesn't have multiple turns.

Pretty sure he's supposed to use his Action Points to break them out. He has fantastic leadership powers in the Old Man form, and I think the dragon summoning ability is there to make sure he can almost always pull out another minion.

Essentially, he and Tiamat are opposites in another way: Tiamat has some very ally-unfriendly abilities (almost irresistible aura and main attack), and is very much meant to take on a party all on her own, while Bahamut, still rather tough in his own right, has abilities that amplify his allies' strengths.

...It would be terrifying to see Bahamut and Tiamat fight alongside each other.

[Surrealistik]

Pretty sure he's supposed to use his Action Points to break them out. He has fantastic leadership powers in the Old Man form, and I think the dragon summoning ability is there to make sure he can almost always pull out another minion.

Essentially, he and Tiamat are opposites in another way: Tiamat has some very ally-unfriendly abilities (almost irresistible aura and main attack), and is very much meant to take on a party all on her own, while Bahamut, still rather tough in his own right, has abilities that amplify his allies' strengths.

...It would be terrifying to see Bahamut and Tiamat fight alongside each other.

Even with all of Bahamut's buffs they're still useless. Even with action points, it's still a terrible investment of a standard. He is just horribly underpowered compared to Tiamat between his lack of actions, lame attacks, and vastly increased vulnerability to hard control.

[DefKab]

By the time you're out godslaying (L30 with pimp gear), the gold dragons he can summon are basically laughable (34 all defenses, +27 attack bonus, 16.5 average damage, single target attacks), and furthermore take a full standard action apiece to summon on a solo that doesn't have multiple turns.

If Bahamut is only summoning nameless Gold Dragons, then you're doing it wrong. The Seven Canaries are the BEST Gold Dragons, his top and mighty. They should be named monster blocks, and probably lesser deities in their own right. If you do it like that, where he's not summoning straight up mooks, then it might be a better fight, donchya think?

[Surrealistik]

If Bahamut is only summoning nameless Gold Dragons, then you're doing it wrong. The Seven Canaries are the BEST Gold Dragons, his top and mighty. They should be named monster blocks, and probably lesser deities in their own right. If you do it like that, where he's not summoning straight up mooks, then it might be a better fight, donchya think?

I'm comparing them purely by the RAW. By the RAW, Bahamut is a joke, straight up. He is loltastic.

[DefKab]

I'm comparing them purely by the RAW. By the RAW, Bahamut is a joke, straight up. He is loltastic.

RAW is a nice thing to hide behind, but we both know we have to take some Creative License with... Heck, ANYTHING WOTC produces to make it interesting... Right?

Otherwise... Uhm, Yeah. I agree.