Rogue Trader? Dark Heresy?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, a quick check on Wikipedia tells me that there's two different flavors of 40k RPG. They use the same rules, but one involves being inquisitors while the other is about being traders. Also, there's a game called Deathwatch that is still the same but involves space marines.

I'm thinking of running a 40k game for my friends sometime in the future, and I'd like the playground's help deciding what to buy. Could you give me some reviews, advice, general comparisons between the two, and so on?

I'm vaguely familiar with 40k as a setting, but I'm not sure precisely what the day to day life of a trader or inquisitor would even be like.

[king.com]

Ok ill break the games down assuming you know nothing about 40k and we can go from there, theres actually 4 games at the moment.

All games work on a d100 perecntile system which have many minor changes between the various systems but they are mostly compatable with eachother. The levelling works by giving you XP per session and you spending it on skills and talents until you have reached a 'spent XP' threshold which offers a new list of purchase from.

Dark Heresy

In warhammer 40,000 the Imperium of Man is beset from all sides by enemies, there is lies and manipulation that come from the foul Xenos whose goal is hold back mankinds expansion across the galaxy as it is their Manifest Destiny to rule the stars. Then there is the corrupting influence of the forces of Choas, whose taint and foul corruption cuts at mankind from the largest battlefield to the smallest hive block. There are a multitude of enemies, the alien, the mutant, the heretic but each engage the Imperium on two battlefields, from without and within. The battlefield without is fought using the usual methods, countless Imperial Guard regiments, the Space Marines and Titans to name but a few.

Then there is the battle within and thats where the Imperial Inquisition comes in. The various forces are attempting to infect, influence and control the loyal servents of mankind and the Inquisition must prevent this.

Okay enough of the propoganda...Basicly, the Imperial Inquistion does the all the things the Spanish and Roman Inquisition did except because of all the demons and physical taint of chaos, they are justified in doing it. Your not playing an Inquisitor (until ascension which is like D&D epic) but rather his acolytes (think of yourselves as canaries), extremely expendable individuals who if they survive might become worth taking note of but for now are sent to investigate the various threats throughout the Calixis Sector. Its a Noir like environment and gameplay, your investigating heretical cults infiltrating a small sector of a hive, alien infestations, disloyal members of various imperial social groups and doing everything you can to get out alive and contact someone with enough power to stop them.

Combat is brutal, your characters are extremely fragile and for most of the game very poorly equipped and not very competent, this game screams low powered. Intially you will fail more than you succeed but for me atleast that just makes the survival of your character and the potential to grow and become a useful member of the Inquisitors orginisation even more desirable. An Inquisitor him/herself can vary entirely dependent on their own ideology and their own agents. Some will operate like puppet masters, sitting in a control room somewhere directing their giant network of agents and acolytes into fighting the enemies of Mankind (and sometimes other Inquisitors too). Some will take to the field themselves leading a charge into a demonic ritual.
Some are fanatics, who believe event sanctioned psykers are a threat to large to keep around. Others believe that the only way to defeat Chaos, is to wield it as a weapon.

An enemy of Mankind is entirely up to the Inquisition. They have in theory unlimited authority though in reality it is equal to the amount of intimidation and power they can demonstrate before them.

Personally I would recommend starting here in Dark Heresy. Its low powered, your players have a very easy to use progression system and they dont get the option to go overboard on new equipment and specialities so there isnt a rush of things to learn but instead a easy smooth slope available for people to learn and get an understanding of the game.

You also get to control their learning of the environment as having a direct superior that they have to answer to (read as: their lives hang in the balance of doing their job), you can keep things measured as "your on this planet to perform this task" and develop this single world, getting offworld alone could be fairl tricky. Remember, technology is a religion, everyone is religious and the Emperor is above all things. Its a world of paranoia and fear and your job is to keep it that way.

My tips would be: remember things are dangerous, a random thug with an autogun can murder the whole party (full auto weapons are dangerous). This is 40K fluff not tabletop, a single demon should make a party of humans cower in terror and run unless they have prepared specificlly to take one on.




Rogue Trader

Rogue Trader is a little different to Dark Heresy. In terms of competency your considered to have 5000xp at character creation when comparing it to a Dark Heresy character but you have high stating stats. This means that in their field a Dark Heresy character is going to be more competent than you (as that 5000xp gives them access to many skills and talents) but a Rogue Trader character on average is going to be better off. What sepereates the two character is wealth. A DH character considers their value in Thrones (games physical currency), such that they get a monthly income of a fixed value.

A RT character considers wealth in terms of Profit Factors, which is the collective value of all their financial interests. They do not buy an item, they equip armies, they operate Starships of thousands of people. RT is about the players as a captain and crew of a Rogue Trader vessel as a part of a Rogue Trader Dynasty. This means that somewhere in their past the family was given a Warrant of Trade (or certain other warrants) that gives them the authority and legal support to go out and explore the far and unknown reaches of the galaxy, and bring what they find back to Imperium. They are one of the few individuals in 40K who are allowed to peacefully interact with aliens, their job is to exploit the universe. Essentially its a big sandbox game set in the Koronos Expanse, a region next to the Calixis Sector which has recently been opened up and ready to be explored and exploited as the Imperium is starting to move in.

The power level between the two games is that the Rogue Trader characters have an entire starship potentially with 100,000+ crew. This means that problems the Dark Heresy players encounter (like a cult hunting them down) is trivial as you can deploy 20,000 crew and suppress the entire city, not to mention you have a large scale weaponary capable of levelling a city if you need to. The threats to a RT party are large scale. For example, one of the published scenarios for RT involves holding off an Ork invasion.

My tips: If you intend a long campaign, make the players start in a small ship with a low starting profit factor. They will complain and whine at first but they will then have clear long term goals for their Dynasty, rebuild, get a bigger ship then start thinking about a fleet. Make sure the players understand that smaller issues arent something they deal with. They need to resupply? Have a junior officer go deal with that, or an adept, repairs to be done? Thats for the techpriests onboard.

This is not a bad game for starting with if you dont know anything about 40K since it depends on you acting outside the norm anyway BUT a lot of players dont fully grasp the kind of large scale resources you have at your disposal in this game, you can literally throw money and troops at a problem unless you absolutely have to deal with it yourself. Combat is just as brutal but you have much better equipment and resources to keep between your character and the combat so ultimately its much safer (theres also ship combat that operates very Age of Sail like, except with lazors :smallwink:)


Deathwatch

This is the one I have least experience with so I will be quick. Your playing Space Marine, genetically engineered super soldiers and your members of an elite anti-alien force working for the Ordos Xeno (of the Inquistion) known as the Deathwatch. This game features combat as a heavy focus but theres plenty of opportunities to do other things its just your all giant hammers so solutions tend to get resolved that way. Combat is a bit safer than the other games but since your marines you dealing with much more dangerous opponents, unfortunately combat usually resolves around "the devestator kills the boss in one round since he rolls a 50 dice" so be very careful around using single monsters and think they are going to be threats to the players.


Black Crusade

In all the other games your playing servents of the False-Emperor, loyal lapdogs licking the wounds of Mankind as they slowly festor and devour the Imperium. In Black Crusade, you play the bad guys. You are disciples of the Dark Gods, and your goal is to ascend into demonhood and lead a black crusade into the Imperium. To begin with, your all fairly insignificant being able to play either a Heretic or a Chaos Space Marine, as your group works together gaining Infamy to eventually gain the respect and power you need to survive. In this game you are FAR more powerful than any of the other systems (except maybe Deathwatch) and can get access to some of the overwhelming gifts and powers offered to servents of the Chaos Gods with each of the Four Gods encouraging different aspects of a character of you can remain Undivided.

This game changes the way levelling works by holding no classes (beyond initial character archetypes at creation) and lets you go in any direction you want at any point provided you have the XP to spend depending on the 'tier' the talent is on (higher tier, the more expensive). What that allows is for a player to break the game like nobodies business without really trying.

The game is fun but has many problems, one of which is giving reasons to have the party members worship different gods and not immediately killing eachother (they have some reasons but ultimately come down to 'the GM says so'). The game allows human and marine characters to work together but it isnt always the best idea to do so. Combat in particular as something that threatens a Space Marine is going to instant kill a regular human.

It can work as a game but as a starting point I would not recommend it unless you absolute have to play an levelling system.

[kaomera]

The game is fun but has many problems, one of which is giving reasons to have the party members worship different gods and not immediately killing eachother (they have some reasons but ultimately come down to 'the GM says so'). The game allows human and marine characters to work together but it isnt always the best idea to do so. Combat in particular as something that threatens a Space Marine is going to instant kill a regular human.
Actually Compacts do address both these issues. Creating and executing a Compact by the rules ensures that the players and GM work together to create a scenario where each PC has something to contribute, and indeed that every character is pledged to contribute something specific. I'll agree that it may well be easier to just play an all-Astartes or all-mortal group, and putting some (or all) of the pressure to figure out how to get the group working together on the players the Compact system may well end up encouraging this. But one thing that I thought was really cool about the Free RPG Day preview was how it ended up that basically the Legionaries where playing D&D while the humans where playing Cyberpunk... (Although it was a pretty odd group, given that the guy with the heavy stubber just insisted on beating everything to death in hand-to-hand...)

I also think you may be overstating the priority that the great powers, and in particular their mortal and Astartes followers give to fighting those of other allegiances. Most traitors feel that they are the ones who have been betrayed (by the False Emperor and/or the Empire), and they crave the purpose that the work of overthrowing him and it gives them. The Traitor Legions even have a working (albeit rather flexible) command structure. While the game can focus on inter-allegiance conflict, I think it's really something someone has to bring to the table, not really a major built-in factor in the game or setting.

[king.com]

Actually Compacts do address both these issues. Creating and executing a Compact by the rules ensures that the players and GM work together to create a scenario where each PC has something to contribute, and indeed that every character is pledged to contribute something specific. I'll agree that it may well be easier to just play an all-Astartes or all-mortal group, and putting some (or all) of the pressure to figure out how to get the group working together on the players the Compact system may well end up encouraging this. But one thing that I thought was really cool about the Free RPG Day preview was how it ended up that basically the Legionaries where playing D&D while the humans where playing Cyberpunk... (Although it was a pretty odd group, given that the guy with the heavy stubber just insisted on beating everything to death in hand-to-hand...)


I disagree, everything about Compacts requires everyone to willing agree to fit a certain profile. Sure if everyones accepting the rules it works but what if you mix and Khornate bezerker character and....a psyker? How do they ever work together?

The free adventure does not represent the game let me say that much. The trouble with Marines and Human is not them working together, that can go just fine and theres many examples of marines working with regular heretics. Its simply combat going to go: The enemy shoots the marine, it does some damage, the second enemy shoots the human, they die (burn some infamy). Astartes characters can very easily pick up any skills they need to keep up with human characters after character creation and humans can never get up to the marine's combat skills. This makes perfect sense but its not fun for players.



I also think you may be overstating the priority that the great powers, and in particular their mortal and Astartes followers give to fighting those of other allegiances. Most traitors feel that they are the ones who have been betrayed (by the False Emperor and/or the Empire), and they crave the purpose that the work of overthrowing him and it gives them. The Traitor Legions even have a working (albeit rather flexible) command structure. While the game can focus on inter-allegiance conflict, I think it's really something someone has to bring to the table, not really a major built-in factor in the game or setting.

That depends entirely on the character not to mention that the goal is to gain infamy, nothing specifies it being a collective infamy. One of the ways to gain it is to kill a champion of your opposing god. The Chaos Marine worshipping Khorne looks to his left and sees his ally a Tzeentch psyker. The psyker then receives several bolt rounds to the face and the Khorne player gets some infamy. I would also point out that Traitor Legions have unified God Worship outside of the Word Bearers (though their whole point is to look at the Chaos Gods collectively and honour them equally) or they are Undivided.

Also most traitors is not something you can qualify, individual marines are individuals, each with their own outlook and goals. Sure you can talk about the Black Legion having such an attitude but what about the World Eaters? They aren't about the betrayal, they are absolute devotionist to Khorne, they are about blood, warfare and carnage regardless of who it is for and who caused it.

The Chaos Gods are actively fighting eachother all the time, its part of their very existance and every aspect of their being is for individual rule over eachother, its actually the rarity that their followers work together and its usually only as a result of an individual having enough influence and power to pull them together. Thats why Abaddon is still alive after all this failure, there simply hasnt been someone big enough to knock him off his podium and still keep everyone together in the process.

Thats what the game is about, the players trying to scheme and manipulate their way to one day take sole rule and leadership. Their allies in the game are simply stepping stones to their own personal glory.

[kaomera]

I disagree, everything about Compacts requires everyone to willing agree to fit a certain profile. Sure if everyones accepting the rules it works but what if you mix and Khornate bezerker character and....a psyker? How do they ever work together?
OK, I just can't seem to parse that. But you seem to be fixating on the idea that a Khornate character would or must kill any psyker they come across. If you want to play that way, fine; but it's not in any way something the rules require, and if you're going to decide to do that then I would expect the group would either not include any psykers or you would all be ready to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying that you aren't going to have conflict between the PCs, and if you want to you can even focus the whole game around that. But it seems like your main complaint with the system boils down to ''some players are jerks''. I just don't see that as an actual problem with the system.

[king.com]

OK, I just can't seem to parse that. But you seem to be fixating on the idea that a Khornate character would or must kill any psyker they come across. If you want to play that way, fine; but it's not in any way something the rules require, and if you're going to decide to do that then I would expect the group would either not include any psykers or you would all be ready to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying that you aren't going to have conflict between the PCs, and if you want to you can even focus the whole game around that. But it seems like your main complaint with the system boils down to ''some players are jerks''. I just don't see that as an actual problem with the system.

No my complaint is that Gods dont like eachother, so actually playing your characters faith means they dont play nice. Khorne and everyone really, specificlly psykers and Tzeentch worshipers. Then theres Nurgle and Slaneesh not liking eachother. This has not a lot to do with individual playstyles but simply trying to play a character with religion in a setting where religion is one of the overriding factors.

The game depends on everyone being moderates which is very contrary to how warhammer 40k works and especially Chaos. The Tzeentch follower is going to do everything he can to manipulate and control the group and eventually betray them. Its how they show devotion to their god. Nurgle followers will go out of their way to infect their allies and the allies of their allies, hell thats what they would do if they wanted to HELP them. Slaane****es are probably the most likely to get along with the others.

Anyway I dont want to debate this here so if you disagree fine but after everything I've done with the system, there are many a problem that you need to carefully consider and address to get a functional game going.

[hamishspence]

Strictly, Khornates hate Slaaneshi more than they do Tzeentchi- they have been known to work together in the novels.

and in Codex Daemons, the short stories in the codex include ones with a mixed force, including Khornate, Tzeentchi and Slaaneshi.

So you can make a case for them working together, but making unfriendly comments at each other.

[Ranos]

It's the same with every game, really. How do you fit a redemptionnist cleric and a psyker ?

Up to the party to make characters that can work together.

[king.com]

Strictly, Khornates hate Slaaneshi more than they do Tzeentchi- they have been known to work together in the novels.

and in Codex Daemons, the short stories in the codex include ones with a mixed force, including Khornate, Tzeentchi and Slaaneshi.

So you can make a case for them working together, but making unfriendly comments at each other.

No its always been Tzeench vs Khorne, Slaanesh vs Nurgle. If that has changed in recent fluff, well things have gotten pretty silly in 40K anyway so i wouldnt be surprised.

They intermingle with the Tzeench + Slaneesh vs Khorne + Nurgle but ultimately the above is held true. Khorne and Tzeench are distinct opposites, one is entire about impulsive actions with brute force and the other is about careful planning and consideration with the talents of the mind.

Similiarly Slaanesh is about mental coercion, and stimuli of the body with an emphasis on short term actions and reactions while Nurgle is about the slow silent alteration of the body and the flesh placing an emphasis on long term disease/immunity or slow, steady decay. That setup works and make sense.

And yes I know they CAN work together but what can actually hold players together in Black Crusade, a game that actively encourage you to be monsters? Two things and two things only, the first is someone more powerful and the other is the Compacts.

Compacts ive argued enough about but as to the person more powerful? This ends up as a Sith Lord, Apprentice style. You dont kill him long enough to learn and gain their power then you take their place. Except your with a party, so unless they specificlly says not to kill your allies (which I can never say anyone that powerful caring what happens to some weakling who wasn't capable enough to watch their own backside). They're simply going to care you get the job done.


It's the same with every game, really. How do you fit a redemptionnist cleric and a psyker ?

Up to the party to make characters that can work together.


Difference being a red redemptionist cleric is still subject to worshipping the God Emperor and the Inquisition is the direct arm of Him on Terra. If they say the witch lives, who are they to question His Almight Wisdom, they just know that if the witch slips up, they will be the first ones to gut them. A very specific character type as opposed to the most common archtype of Black Crusade being a corrupt traitor and heretic bent on carving out their own way to demonhood and everyone in the universe is just a stepping stone to that goal. Not to mention the Chaos Gods actively encourage their followers to do this, so there is so little to prevent players from doing this.

You are the Bad Guys, you are by definition playing traitors and you need the players to show loyalty, it can work but you need to make sure every player is ready to kill everyone else at the drop of the hat, which is why having a Space Marine in the party throws off that balance.

[hamishspence]

No its always been Tzeench vs Khorne, Slaanesh vs Nurgle. If that has changed in recent fluff, well things have gotten pretty silly in 40K anyway so i wouldnt be surprised.

Pages 47-59 of the old 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, explicitly state that Khorne and Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle, are the opposing powers.

And I believe it's been that way since the old Chaos sourcebooks (Realm of Chaos, The Lost & The Damned).

Page 241 of the Dark Heresy rulebook lists the four powers, various things associated with them, and their Opposed Power- for Khorne, it's Slaanesh, for Tzeentch, it's Nurgle.

[king.com]

Pages 47-59 of the old 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, explicitly state that Khorne and Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle, are the opposing powers.

And I believe it's been that way since the old Chaos sourcebooks (Relams of Chaos, The Lost & The Damned).

Page 241 of the Dark Heresy rulebook lists the four powers, various things associated with them, and their Opposed Power- for Khorne, it's Slaanesh, for Tzeentch, it's Nurgle.

It is too.....that doesnt make any sense whatsoever. Everything Khorne hates is found in Tzeentch. What do Tzeentch and Nurgle have to fight over? Both have plans i guess? Khorne hates Slaanesh because he/shes the new kid on the block? Both are driven by impulse, so....khorne doesnt like sex, drugs or rock and roll?

[hamishspence]

If you start here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gods_of_Chaos

and go on to check Lexicanum's pages on the individual Chaos Gods, you'll find the relationships are pretty clearly laid out, and the reasons given.

Tzeentch is life and hope, Nurgle death and despair, Tzeentch change, Nurgle stasis- Tzeentch growth, Nurgle decay.

Khorne/Slaanesh is a bit more blurred:

"Particular enemies are the followers of Khorne, whose belief in pain and death is completely opposed to Slaanesh's principle of a life of unrestricted pleasure. "
"Slaanesh, considered a weakling without martial pride or honour, incurs most of Khorne's hatred. "

[king.com]

If you start here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gods_of_Chaos

and go on to check Lexicanum's pages on the individual Chaos Gods, you'll find the relationships are pretty clearly laid out, and the reasons given.

Tzeentch is life and hope, Nurgle death and despair, Tzeentch change, Nurgle stasis- Tzeentch growth, Nurgle decay.

I thought GW went out and dropped the Hope, Honour, Pleasure and whatever nurgle was?

Guess I was wrong, regardless the points afforementioned still stand, these guys hate eachother. I disagree with whats said there as it seems to be a bit contradicatory but I dont ever want to get into 40K fluff arguements.

[hamishspence]

"Fortitude"?

They may have downplayed it a little, but they never dropped it completely- and it's mentioned in Black Crusade.

It's one of the Grimdark selling points of 40K- "they have a God of Hope- and the God of Hope is evil".

[king.com]

"Fortitude"?

They may have downplayed it a little, but they never dropped it completely- and it's mentioned in Black Crusade.

It's one of the Grimdark selling points of 40K- "they have a God of Hope- and the God of Hope is evil".

Yes i am aware of the gitp quote and Tzeentch has always been hope but I guess I personally have never seen that to opposing Nurgle in any way since hes always been about giving hope to his followers but I guess thats just me.

Lexicanum puts it as nurgle is hope (it uses the work defiance but that doesnt seem entirely appropriate to anything Nurgle does, though makes the aspect 'Resilience' perhaps being the path to Nurgle I was looking for) out of hopelessness, so then what does Tzeentch focus on...hope to those already hopeful? Reality in the form of change to those hopes? Seems a little weak to me. An entire opposition on who comes first...

[hamishspence]

Nurgle is more "Acceptance" than "Hope" per se.

The chaos gods sometimes overlap- which might explain how you can get alliances between normally opposed powers.

TV Tropes' description of Chaos, and the 4 Powers, is actually pretty good:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Warhammer40000ForcesOfChaos

[king.com]

Nurgle is more "Acceptance" than "Hope" per se.

The chaos gods sometimes overlap- which might explain how you can get alliances between normally opposed powers.

TV Tropes' description of Chaos, and the 4 Powers, is actually pretty good:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Warhammer40000ForcesOfChaos

Acceptance definitely a better word than what they used. They are both all about life, simply different direction of it. Anyway, im not going on further to derail the thread even more

[hamishspence]

Good point. What I was trying to stress was that, while there is a degree of opposition, Black Crusade parties following different deities are not necessarily going to fight over who worships what.

And, in a dangerous world, a degree of co-operation is advantageous.

[king.com]

Good point. What I was trying to stress was that, while there is a degree of opposition, Black Crusade parties following different deities are not necessarily going to fight over who worships what.

And, in a dangerous world, a degree of co-operation is advantageous.

Sure a degree of cooperation to survive but at some point, the second one player thinks they're in the clear, they are going to stab eachother in the back. Particularly if you get infamy out of it (Black Crusade runs things on the Tzeench + Slaanesh vs Khorne + Nurgle lines anyway) for killing an opposing champion. I dont know how many people want to play Black Crusade and then sit on the fence and play Undivided (this leaves you very underpowered in a game of rocket tag which is no fun for anyone).

People say this is about individual players but I would be rewarding players who actually play up their religion and a Khornate marine killing a psyker on sight seems perfectly in character and anything to the contray is going to make the big guy up stairs a little ticked off that his loyal follower is playing nice. I personally cannot envision myself ever playing a character in the system thats not going to murder my allies if I saw it resulting in a personal advantage. Thats the way life in the Screaming Vortex works, its worthless if you cant take care of yourself. From what I've seen of the premade adventures too, they seem to drastically miss this point which is a massive shame. Way too many problems solved by a choas marine using his bolter on things which the scenarios just dont consider.

EDIT: Actually what the hell am I doing? None of this is helpful to the OP, im just derailing everything further by arguing.

OP, dont get Black Crusade to start with, if you want to get it later, try it, figure it out for yourself its a mess but its fun. Im done here.

[hamishspence]

The Giant said it best, in the "Making Tough Decisions" article in the "Gaming" section of the site:


Decide to React Differently: Have you ever had a party break down into fighting over the actions of one of their members? Has a character ever threatened repeatedly to leave the party? Often, intraparty fighting boils down to one player declaring, "That's how my character would react." Heck, often you'll be the one saying it; it's a common reaction when alignments or codes of ethics clash.

However, it also creates a logjam where neither side wants to back down. The key to resolving this problem is to decide to react differently. You are not your character, and your character is not a separate entity with reactions that you cannot control. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a player state that their character's actions are not under their control. Every decision your character makes is your decision first. It is possible and even preferable for you to craft a personality that is consistent but also accommodating of the characters the other players wish to play.

When you think about a situation, ask yourself, "Is this the only way my character can react to this?" Chances are, the answer is, "No." Try to refine your character so that you can deal with situations that conflict with your alignment/ethos without resorting to ultimatums, threats, etc. This will often mean thinking in terms of compromise and concession to your fellow players, or at the very least an agreement to disagree.

this applies even to settings where backstabbing is "in character".

[The Glyphstone]

Nurgle's also the god of Life - it's just that he loves all his children, including bacteria and viruses.

[Selrahc]

I disagree, everything about Compacts requires everyone to willing agree to fit a certain profile. Sure if everyones accepting the rules it works but what if you mix and Khornate bezerker character and....a psyker? How do they ever work together?

The idea behind a compact is that a crack team has been assembled to complete an objective. One person is specifically in charge of making sure the Compact goes as smoothly as possible. Everyone is in it for some kind of reward.

Why do a Khorne Berserker and a Psyker work together? To get something out of it.

They probably do it begrudgingly. Conflict could possibly erupt. But if they really want the reward from completing the Compact, they will attempt to keep things below the level of overt hostilities. And with everybody else in the group incentivised to also prevent them from fighting, and one person actively charged with it, I can more than believe that any random group of Chaos worshippers would work together.

[shadow_archmagi]

So do you guys think that Black Crusade would be a good place to start?

[Selrahc]

So do you guys think that Black Crusade would be a good place to start?

Do you think it sounds like the most interesting of the four?

It is probably the most confusing of the four, but it isn't so bad that you'll have all that much trouble playing it. If it's the one that has you the most excited, give it a go.

[king.com]

The idea behind a compact is that a crack team has been assembled to complete an objective. One person is specifically in charge of making sure the Compact goes as smoothly as possible. Everyone is in it for some kind of reward.

Why do a Khorne Berserker and a Psyker work together? To get something out of it.

They probably do it begrudgingly. Conflict could possibly erupt. But if they really want the reward from completing the Compact, they will attempt to keep things below the level of overt hostilities. And with everybody else in the group incentivised to also prevent them from fighting, and one person actively charged with it, I can more than believe that any random group of Chaos worshippers would work together.

Yea, and they immediately betry eachother if they think they can get something out of it (which in this case is infamy so its beneficial in system to completely screw over your allies). Thats not fun unless all players are going in aware of that AND if you through marines and humans together you get a mess of some players being unable to do anything about it.


So do you guys think that Black Crusade would be a good place to start?

Frankly no. The system is far more complex to understand (as it requires you to learn every talent and skill right off the bat) and extremely easy to break and the combat is a big series of rocket tag. I recommend starting with Dark Heresy. Even if its only to familiarise everyone with the rules and setting. Theres some differences but enough is the same its not a big difference. Hell the games are even designed for a natural progress with a starting Black Crusade character being the equivilent power of a 13,000 XP Dark Heresy Character (or about that).

If you really want to, go ahead but just be very careful, that game can fall apart very quickly particularly as the game has a 'win' condition of sorts.

[The Glyphstone]

Yea, and they immediately betry eachother if they think they can get something out of it (which in this case is infamy so its beneficial in system to completely screw over your allies). Thats not fun unless all players are going in aware of that AND if you through marines and humans together you get a mess of some players being unable to do anything about it.



Which is why the reward of adhering to the Compact and completing whatever mission they're pursuing has to be greater than the infamy they earn from the teamkill (and worth the risk that the rest of their 'teammates' will then kill them - not to avenge the dead guy, but to take out their frustration at being undermanned and no longer able to complete their Compact effectively, and thinking the revenge of blowing up the guy who screwed all of them for a little bit of short-term benefit is worth it).

[shadow_archmagi]

Do you think it sounds like the most interesting of the four?

It is probably the most confusing of the four, but it isn't so bad that you'll have all that much trouble playing it. If it's the one that has you the most excited, give it a go.

No, but it was the one that was being discussed the most, so I took it to be the playground considers most interesting/popular.

I think Rogue Trader sounds the most interesting; it seems like it'd end up being like a Grimdark version of Star Trek (What with having a core cast of interesting characters with command of a mook legion)

[Selrahc]

No, but it was the one that was being discussed the most, so I took it to be the playground considers most interesting/popular.

Eh. It's more that it's new/odd.

I'd kind of like a full discussion topic of Black Crusade, rather than just derailing your thread. I haven't actually used it yet, but it seems interesting. I'm not currently seeing the "Massive Brokeness" aspect, and I don't think it would be hard to get characters who work together.


I think Rogue Trader sounds the most interesting; it seems like it'd end up being like a Grimdark version of Star Trek (What with having a core cast of interesting characters with command of a mook legion)

Well then go for Rogue Trader. Rogue Trader is fun. If you're DMing it though, remember that the players have a *lot* of options. The game starts off with the players in control of an interstellar spacecraft with weaponry that can level cities, and enough cash to stagger Croesus. Dark Heresy is a much easier game to DM for.

[TheNabster]

Dark Heresy and all of its spin offs were one of the games I would like to play just once to try it at some point

I lean more towards Deathwatch though, I like the "Hack and slash" sort of games. And there isn't anything that is more hack and slash in the 40k RPGs then Deathwatch. In my opinion

[The Glyphstone]

No, but it was the one that was being discussed the most, so I took it to be the playground considers most interesting/popular.

I think Rogue Trader sounds the most interesting; it seems like it'd end up being like a Grimdark version of Star Trek (What with having a core cast of interesting characters with command of a mook legion)

Make the characters privateers or outright pirates, and yeah, Grimdark Star Trek is a pretty good description of RT.

[king.com]

Which is why the reward of adhering to the Compact and completing whatever mission they're pursuing has to be greater than the infamy they earn from the teamkill (and worth the risk that the rest of their 'teammates' will then kill them - not to avenge the dead guy, but to take out their frustration at being undermanned and no longer able to complete their Compact effectively, and thinking the revenge of blowing up the guy who screwed all of them for a little bit of short-term benefit is worth it).

The point I was making was that they do both, string people along just enough until the player figures they can do the rest themselves (execute non eseential characters) and get all the rewards for yourself and the bonuses from killing your allies and with Black Crusades character system between two people you can have every important skill covered very early in the game. The Apostate + Sorcerer combo make everyone else meatshields...for example.



No, but it was the one that was being discussed the most, so I took it to be the playground considers most interesting/popular.


Its the newest and the moooooost different from the rest of the games.



I think Rogue Trader sounds the most interesting; it seems like it'd end up being like a Grimdark version of Star Trek (What with having a core cast of interesting characters with command of a mook legion)

If you like rogue trader I would still recommend Dark Heresy first up, as one of the advantages is a rank 1 rogue trader character is equal to a 5000XP Dark Heresy character. You can play a game with very minimal starting ground and very minimal need to know all the rules, slow expanding so that once you try out rogue trader you can import tha characters from the Dark Heresy games or let your players try one of the new Rogue Trader characters (the upside is the Rogue Trader character creation system is much more interesting). The danger to DM rogue trader is you have, as I mentioned, a crew of 100,000 or so and a ship capable of levelling cities. This a result requires some more careful planning and consideration to actually throw appropriate non-combat challenges at the players.


Eh. It's more that it's new/odd.
I'd kind of like a full discussion topic of Black Crusade, rather than just derailing your thread. I haven't actually used it yet, but it seems interesting. I'm not currently seeing the "Massive Brokeness" aspect, and I don't think it would be hard to get characters who work together.

Yea, might ask one of the mods to move some of the unnessary Black Crusade stuff into another thread. Its a good game but as a person who could not optimize to save my life, I have discovered these particularly dumb combos:

Apostate with 2 plasma cannon servitors (less minions take 2 plasma cannons with the Noxious discharge so they also provide a smoke screen between shots) at character creation. Fun times....Max out the BS and take machine 2 with auto-stabilised). Talks his way through everything and has firepower to back it up. Oh yea, this is at character creation too. The minions in general look to be very silly though.

Then theres the Sorceror, immediately buy willpower and doombolt and with some luck your assumingly above 50 (30 base, + 5 devotion, + 5 Ascendency, +5 willpower, hopefully you roll more than a 5 for WP) and potentially 65 Wp (and when you get a chance favoured by the warp but thats after a few sessions, then max willpower).

So on your Doombolt roll you push, so your doing 1d10+5 Pen 8, and its Semi auto against a 95. Yea... Thats character creation too. At a few sessions in and it becomes a 100+ AND gives you that safety net of a two rolls on the perils if you want to not push until then. Yea the character gets silly and wait until he gets unnatural willpower and Bolt of Change and a few more ranks of psy rating. The best part? Hes still a friggen Chaos Marine (with his power armour + super toughness and the unkillable true grit) with a force weapon and going tzeentch can make you the knowledge character of the group.

The game is amazing for making villains and one shots or games where its very clearly a PvP open game and the GM has very carefully understood the various game breakers (if they're going to mix marines atleast operate on a buddy system with loyalist groups of a human + marine).