Cause Revolt - A test of munchkin

[Morithias]

In Dragon Magazine 313 page 99. It states that the bluff DC to cause "revolt against a benevolent ruler" is DC 40. Increase the DC by 10 to make it "permanent until affected by other events". So DC 50

By spending 30d6 Gold and 6 weeks, we can make this check with a +10 circumstantial bonus.

So here is my challenge.

What is the lowest level we can reach to be able to literally walk into any town, pay at most 180 gp, and cause civil war.

Good luck everyone! So far my best record is level 8 with blowing all my money on a + to bluff item.

Edit: I have new information related to this.

Sorry for missing this, but gather information, and knowledge (local) both give +2 synergy to this check.

My apologies for missing this.

[BillyBobJoe]

7th at least. Just be a bard and cast glibness. NO effort necessary. You just need to have at least +3 CHA. +30 Glibness, +3 CHA, +10 Ranks, +10 Competence (from spending the money and time) = +53 (at least) Bluff.

No equipment needed.

[bigstipidfighte]

Are you aware of Glibness that gives +30 to Bluff checks? Buy a scroll or potion.

[JaronK]

Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 3/Marshal 1 with Item Familiar and Motivate Charisma, with 24 Cha (18 Base, +3 Venerable, +1 level up, +2 Racial). 7 Ranks, +7 Item Familiar, +7 Cha, +7 Motivate Charisma, +3 Factotum (1/day). That gets us to +31. Pay 30d6gp to get to +41. Take 10. Done. If you prefer, swap out Factotum for Cleric or Archivist, and cast Divine Inspiration for +8 instead of using Cunning Insight for +3.

Can do this before Glibness comes online. I figured we can't buy a scroll... that would cost more than 180gp.

JaronK

[TroubleBrewing]

Aaaand there you have it, folks. Be sure to check out his new book, Revolution On 20gp A Day, available now wherever anarchist books are sold.

[Douglas]

Glibness doesn't work for this - it applies specifically to convincing people that you're not lying, not to bluff checks in general.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Middle-Age Human Beguiler 4
32-pointbuy: Str 7, Dex 7, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 18
Two flaws (specifics irrelevant, let's say Noncombatant and Shaky)
Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Skill Focus: Bluff, Persuasive, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)
Since skills are gained prior to feats on leveling up, he gains Item Familiar at 3rd, and invests all twelve of his 4th level skill points into it for a +4 bonus to Bluff.
Bluff 7 ranks, other skill ranks are irrelevant as there are no synergies which add to Bluff. I didn't see any skill tricks that may help, either.
His item familiar began as a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) monocle (+2 Circumstance bonus to Bluff) which added a magical +5 Competence bonus to Bluff (2,550 gp initially, paid full price). He then upgraded the item himself to increase its Competence bonus to +9 (2,800 gp, 224 XP paid), so it currently grants a total of +11 Bluff.
He can cast Glibness by spending two 2nd level spell slots via Versatile Spellcaster; its interaction with Heighten Spell grants him knowledge of all 3rd level spells on the Beguiler spell list.

That's a total bluff check of:
+7 ranks, skill ranks
+4 Cha bonus
+3 Skill Focus feat
+2 Persuasive feat
+4 Item Familiar invested skill ranks, unnamed
+2 Circumstance, masterwork tool
+9 Competence, magic item
+30 Glibness spell, unnamed
= +61 total Bluff modifier at ECL 4


Change it to level 2, same stats as above but Int 19 before the 4th level point and no Item Familiar feat yet; a Wand of Glibness with only one charge remaining is a mere 225 gp:
+5 ranks
+4 Cha
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+2 Circumstance, masterwork tool
+30 Glibness via a wand
= +46 total Bluff modifier at ECL 2 so he could easily throw around enough gold to get another +3 to succeed on a roll of 1.


Your speech becomes fluent and more believable. You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)
"You should revolt against that tyrant!" would definitely qualify.

[Morithias]

Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 3/Marshal 1 with Item Familiar and Motivate Charisma, with 24 Cha (18 Base, +3 Venerable, +1 level up, +2 Racial). 7 Ranks, +7 Item Familiar, +7 Cha, +7 Motivate Charisma, +3 Factotum (1/day). That gets us to +31. Pay 30d6gp to get to +41. Take 10. Done. If you prefer, swap out Factotum for Cleric or Archivist, and cast Divine Inspiration for +8 instead of using Cunning Insight for +3.

Can do this before Glibness comes online. I figured we can't buy a scroll... that would cost more than 180gp.

JaronK

I think this is the new one to beat. Very nice one JaronK.

Edit: On Glibness. I would like to note that you do this check over 6 weeks of time, so unless you have something like a glibness ring I doubt most if any DMs would allow it to work.

Then again I do realize that RAW and rule lawyering is a key part of munchkin. So we'll have two winners, one with glibness and one without. So to speak. Level 2 though? Nice job.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 3/Marshal 1 with Item Familiar and Motivate Charisma, with 24 Cha (18 Base, +3 Venerable, +1 level up, +2 Racial). 7 Ranks, +7 Item Familiar, +7 Cha, +7 Motivate Charisma, +3 Factotum (1/day). That gets us to +31. Pay 30d6gp to get to +41. Take 10. Done. If you prefer, swap out Factotum for Cleric or Archivist, and cast Divine Inspiration for +8 instead of using Cunning Insight for +3.

Can do this before Glibness comes online. I figured we can't buy a scroll... that would cost more than 180gp.

JaronK

Explain how you're getting a +7 out of Item Familiar, please.

Skill points are gained before feats on leveling up (PHB p58-59). You can't take Item Familiar earlier than 3rd level, so you have only one level's worth of skill points to invest in it. It would take 21 invested skill points for it to grant +7, and I don't see you gaining 21 skill points in a single level of that build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Without Glibness, ECL 3:

Old Age, Unseelie Fey, Magic-Blooded, Major Devil Bloodline, Major Red Dragon Bloodline, Lesser Aasimar (PGtF); +0 LA
Cha 26 +8 (18 base, +2 Aasimar, +2 Magic-Blooded, +2 Unseelie Fey, +2 Age)

Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1/ Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) 2/ Factotum 1
This requires a bit of explaining. Since Bloodline levels don't increase your character level, you can start out [class] 1, gain 1,000 xp, gain a bloodline level, and still be considered 1st level, so it takes only another 1,000 xp to gain your next level. As long as that too is another bloodline level, you're still 1st level and your next level is another 1,000 xp away. This character has 3,000 xp total, equal to that of an ECL 3 character. His max skill ranks are that of a 4th level character, and his effective class level for level-dependent effect such as Cunning Knowledge is 3rd.

With two flaws, his feats are Skill Focus: Bluff, Persuasive, Font of Inspiration, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Dodge, Alertness

As an ECL 3 character, he has a masterwork monocle (+2 masterwork tool) which grants a +5 competence bonus to Bluff (2,550 gp).

Bluff skill modifiers:
+7 ranks
+8 Charisma
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+8 Motivate Charisma
+2 Devil Bloodline
+2 Red Dragon Bloodline
+3 Cunning Knowledge
+2 Masterwork Tool
+5 Competence magic item
= +42 total Bluff modifier at ECL 3, so he could take ten and get a result of 52.

[Morithias]

Without Glibness, ECL 3:

Old Age, Unseelie Fey, Magic-Blooded, Major Devil Bloodline, Major Red Dragon Bloodline, Lesser Aasimar (PGtF); +0 LA
Cha 26 +8 (18 base, +2 Aasimar, +2 Magic-Blooded, +2 Unseelie Fey, +2 Age)

Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1/ Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) 2/ Factotum 1
This requires a bit of explaining. Since Bloodline levels don't increase your character level, you can start out [class] 1, gain 1,000 xp, gain a bloodline level, and still be considered 1st level, so it takes only another 1,000 xp to gain your next level. As long as that too is another bloodline level, you're still 1st level and your next level is another 1,000 xp away. This character has 3,000 xp total, equal to that of an ECL 3 character. His max skill ranks are that of a 4th level character, and his effective class level for level-dependent effect such as Cunning Knowledge is 3rd.

With two flaws, his feats are Skill Focus: Bluff, Persuasive, Font of Inspiration, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Dodge, Alertness

As an ECL 3 character, he has a masterwork monocle (+2 masterwork tool) which grants a +5 competence bonus to Bluff (2,550 gp).

Bluff skill modifiers:
+7 ranks
+8 Charisma
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+8 Motivate Charisma
+2 Devil Bloodline
+2 Red Dragon Bloodline
+3 Cunning Knowledge
+2 Masterwork Tool
+5 Competence magic item
= +42 total Bluff modifier at ECL 3, so he could take ten and get a result of 52.

Wow, and with this you only need to spend the base 5d6 and only one week to make the revolt happen.

Who's up for a trip to the empire of blood? Level 3 PC causes civil war. Blackguard does not have ranks in gather information. XD

[Diefje]

"... Until affected by other events"

It stops revolting in its town, or it gets the pointy stick again. Benevolent, schmenevolent.

[JaronK]

Explain how you're getting a +7 out of Item Familiar, please.

Skill points are gained before feats on leveling up (PHB p58-59). You can't take Item Familiar earlier than 3rd level, so you have only one level's worth of skill points to invest in it. It would take 21 invested skill points for it to grant +7, and I don't see you gaining 21 skill points in a single level of that build.

Ah, right, I had originally made it as a 6th level build, so I hadn't thought about that.

Figure 16 Int (I think 18 is unreasonable considering we already have 18 Cha) Base, +3 Venerable, so 19 Int. That's 10 skill points to invest, so only +3 from Item Familiar.

We're now three shy of the mark. So, make it a Cleric 3/Marshal 1 so you can cast Divine Insight, and we're there (+45, take 10).

JaronK

[Morithias]

"... Until affected by other events"

It stops revolting in its town, or it gets the pointy stick again. Benevolent, schmenevolent.

At which point you blow another 5d6 gp and start the fun ALL OVER AGAIN!

[Little Brother]

Old Unseelie Fey Magic Blooded Primordial Half-Giant

Charisma 29, modifier of 9
Intelligence 25
Martial 1/Factotum 1

5 ranks in bluff and Know:Royalty

5 ranks in diplomacy
4 from synergy
9 from charisma
9 from Motivate Charisma
3 from Skill Focus
2 from Negotiator
5 from Cunning Knowledge
5 from Ring of Bluff
2 from Masterwork Tool
1 from City of the dead
1 Trait
=46+10=56, automake

As a lesser Aasimar, same templates(Except Primordial Giant)
26(18 base), 18 Int
5 ranks
4 synergy
8 Charisma
8 Motivate Charisma
3 Skill Focus
2 Negotiator
1 Touchstone: City of the Dead
2 Masterwork Tool
4 Cunning Knowledge
2 Aid another
Trait: Honest
+10
=50, auto-make it, within WBL, make it on a two without assistance

Or
Old Unseelie Fey Magic Blooded Lesser Asimar Marshal 1
2 Flaws, Trait: Honest
4 ranks in Diplomacy
8 from Charisma
8 from Motivate Charisma
3 Skill Focus
2 Negotiator
1 City of the Dead
2 Masterwork Tool
2 Hire a trained Diplomat to Aid Another
+10 Circumstance
+1 Trait
=41, I make it on a 9, 60% chance, take a ten for auto-pass, ECL 1

Admittedly, I broke WBL a little bit, but I can make money if need be.

How's that?

EDIT:DERPED

[Morithias]

I have new information related to this.

Sorry for missing this, but gather information, and knowledge (local) both give +2 synergy to this check.

My apologies for missing this.

[JaronK]

Clearly the challenge is going to be to get it down to level 1... or maybe 2 with no wealth at all. I can do it if I can get a level 2 Cleric spell at first level. Any ideas? I'm blanking. But this ought to be sufficient if we can get it:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a

Obviously this means level 3 no wealth is easy: Dragonwrought Unseelie Fey Magic Blooded Venerable Kobold Cloistered Cleric 3 (with appropriate domains to get bluff and gather information). Dragonwrought and Skill Focus: Bluff as feats. 26 Charisma. That's 6 (Ranks) +2 (Gather Info) +2 (Knowledge: Local) +20 (Guidance of the Avatar) + 8 (Charisma) +3 (Skill Focus) = +41. Take 10, done.

JaronK

[Zaq]

Reversed Hidden Truth gives a +10 typeless bonus to Bluff and is available at ECL 3. Unlike Glibness, it doesn't stipulate what the Bluff check has to be for. Just another use for my favorite utterance.

[Gotterdammerung]

Half-Illithid awakened small plant marshal 1 awakened by a druid with maximized empowered awaken with the ability enhancer feat.

Minimum int and chr 26 with 6 rolls of 1 on 6d6.
2 flaws 1 trait

+8 chr
+8 int from rapscallion feat
+8 motivate charisma
+4 ranks
+2 masterwork item
+3 skill focus
+2 negotiator
+1 touchstone: City of the Dead
+1 trait

need to roll 13 or higher


Average roll on int and chr= 30int 30 chr
modifier 43
take 10
=53


Maximum roll on int and chr = 34 in 34 chr

modifier 49
pass on a 1.
Take 10 for a 59.

Made by druid. Abducted by mindflayers. No brain to eat. So experimented on instead. Put tadpole into a knobby hole. Ta~da mind flayer plant.

Escaped with supreme bluffing powers. "Um... my boss told me to collect some stuff over there >,.>" *waltzes out of mind flayer camp.

Explores. Finds city of the dead. Gets Bored. Wanders into random town. Feels the need to kick up a revolution.


*clap*

lvl1 no WBL problems.

[Malachei]

Impressive. What is the DC for making someone smash his head with his own mug? ;)

[Ravens_cry]

Considerably higher, unless they are intoxicated. That gives a +15 bonus.

[TroubleBrewing]

Considerably higher, unless they are intoxicated. That gives a +15 bonus.

At that point, it's as easy as saying "Bet you can't smash that mug on your head."

[Ravens_cry]

At that point, it's as easy as saying "Bet you can't smash that mug on your head."
Depends on the drunk, but yes.

[Malachei]

Seriously, if there's no need for the target top smash a mug on its head, Charm Person might suffice. ;)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

*clap*

lvl1 no WBL problems.

I'm seeing a +5 LA on Half-Illithid in the Fiend Folio, and while it was reprinted in Underdark the newer printing gives no indication that this was reduced in any way.

Plus Ability Enhancer only applies to enhancement bonuses from spells, so it won't affect Awaken in any way.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

ECL 1:

Old Age, Unseelie Fey, Magic-Blooded, Major Devil Bloodline, Major Red Dragon Bloodline, Major Efreeti Bloodline, Primordial Giant, Half-Giant; LA +0, using the Half-Giant Racial Class rules in Complete Psionic page 148.

Cha 28 +9 (18 base, +2 Unseelie Fey, +2 Magic-Blooded, +4 Primordial Giant, +2 age)

I'm actually going to use the 3.0-but-not-superseded-by-anything-3.5 Variant: 1st-Level Multiclass Characters, 3.0 DMG page 40-41.
Marshal (primary)/Sorcerer (secondary) 1, two flaws, Skill Focus: Bluff, Persuasive, Hidden Talent: Precognition (using the racial class you do not gain the naturally psionic trait until ECL 2).

Masterwork Tool for a +2 circumstance bonus.
Tiny Viper Familiar for a +3 bonus to Bluff checks.

Bluff skill modifiers:
+4 Ranks
+9 Cha
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+9 Motivate Charisma
+3 Tiny Viper Familiar
+2 Insight, Precognition
+2 Circumstance, Masterwork Tool
+2 Major Devil Bloodline
+2 Major Red Dragon Bloodline
+2 Major Efreeti Bloodline
= +40 total Bluff skill modifier at ECL 1, so he can take ten and succeed.

[Little Brother]

Clearly the challenge is going to be to get it down to level 1... or maybe 2 with no wealth at all. I can do it if I can get a level 2 Cleric spell at first level. Any ideas? I'm blanking. But this ought to be sufficient if we can get it:Dude, I got two already, one if WBL can be broken a little.

[CTrees]

I'd think Glibness would work, depending on the circumstance. If things really aren't bad, and you're trying to foment revolution for your own amusement, you may be lying ridiculously the entire time. In which case, Glibness works. You just need to be careful about the wording your character uses. Real issue is duration, which gets strange when you're making one check for days to weeks of work.

[Little Brother]

ECL 1:

Old Age, Unseelie Fey, Magic-Blooded, Major Devil Bloodline, Major Red Dragon Bloodline, Major Efreeti Bloodline, Primordial Giant, Half-Giant; LA +0, using the Half-Giant Racial Class rules in Complete Psionic page 148.

Cha 28 +9 (18 base, +2 Unseelie Fey, +2 Magic-Blooded, +4 Primordial Giant, +2 age)

I'm actually going to use the 3.0-but-not-superseded-by-anything-3.5 Variant: 1st-Level Multiclass Characters, 3.0 DMG page 40-41.
Marshal (primary)/Sorcerer (secondary) 1, two flaws, Skill Focus: Bluff, Persuasive, Hidden Talent: Precognition (using the racial class you do not gain the naturally psionic trait until ECL 2).

Masterwork Tool for a +2 circumstance bonus.
Tiny Viper Familiar for a +3 bonus to Bluff checks.

Bluff skill modifiers:
+4 Ranks
+9 Cha
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+9 Motivate Charisma
+3 Tiny Viper Familiar
+2 Insight, Precognition
+2 Circumstance, Masterwork Tool
+2 Major Devil Bloodline
+2 Major Red Dragon Bloodline
+2 Major Efreeti Bloodline
= +40 total Bluff skill modifier at ECL 1, so he can take ten and succeed.How do you afford the Masterwork tool, isn't it too much? Isn't the starting GP too high?

If not, then I guess I didn't break WBL with the level 1 build. Sweet.

That aside, though, that multiclass thing is kinda sketchy. Like, really sketchy. Plus, aren't bloodlines much like LA? Don't they count as levels for XP?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How do you afford the Masterwork tool, isn't it too much? Isn't the starting GP too high?

If not, then I guess I didn't break WBL with the level 1 build. Sweet.

That aside, though, that multiclass thing is kinda sketchy. Like, really sketchy. Plus, aren't bloodlines much like LA? Don't they count as levels for XP?

You have to take a level of "bloodline" by a certain level per bloodline you have or you take an XP penalty. You don't pay anything for them at 1st level.

A Masterwork Tool is only 50 gp, Marshal starts with 5d4x10, average 125 gp.

The multiclassing trick is only there to get a familiar, and while it may be a bit sketchy, it's still legit as per WotC's stance on using 3.0 material in 3.5 games.

[Morithias]

ECL 1:

Old Age, Unseelie Fey, Magic-Blooded, Major Devil Bloodline, Major Red Dragon Bloodline, Major Efreeti Bloodline, Primordial Giant, Half-Giant; LA +0, using the Half-Giant Racial Class rules in Complete Psionic page 148.

Cha 28 +9 (18 base, +2 Unseelie Fey, +2 Magic-Blooded, +4 Primordial Giant, +2 age)

I'm actually going to use the 3.0-but-not-superseded-by-anything-3.5 Variant: 1st-Level Multiclass Characters, 3.0 DMG page 40-41.
Marshal (primary)/Sorcerer (secondary) 1, two flaws, Skill Focus: Bluff, Persuasive, Hidden Talent: Precognition (using the racial class you do not gain the naturally psionic trait until ECL 2).

Masterwork Tool for a +2 circumstance bonus.
Tiny Viper Familiar for a +3 bonus to Bluff checks.

Bluff skill modifiers:
+4 Ranks
+9 Cha
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+9 Motivate Charisma
+3 Tiny Viper Familiar
+2 Insight, Precognition
+2 Circumstance, Masterwork Tool
+2 Major Devil Bloodline
+2 Major Red Dragon Bloodline
+2 Major Efreeti Bloodline
= +40 total Bluff skill modifier at ECL 1, so he can take ten and succeed.

Gee and that doesn't even require spending extra time or gold to make it happen. Impressive my good man, very impressive.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm seeing a +5 LA on Half-Illithid in the Fiend Folio, and while it was reprinted in Underdark the newer printing gives no indication that this was reduced in any way.

Plus Ability Enhancer only applies to enhancement bonuses from spells, so it won't affect Awaken in any way.

I was using the reprinted version out of underdark that has no level adjustment. But I don't have to. The template just add's 6 to the final bluff.
I can add unseelie fey template for a +2 instead
Or make the tree venerable for a +3
or do both.


And no you are wrong about ability enhancer.

"Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does."


You are looking at the word "enhances" in this text, and assuming that "enhances" means "enhancement". But it doesn't. The text makes no mention whatsoever to the TYPE of bonus provided by the spell.

Any transmutation spell that gives a bonus to ability scores of ANY type can benefit from ability enhancer.

Awaken is one of these such spells.

[Qwertystop]

Considerably higher, unless they are intoxicated. That gives a +15 bonus.

Wait, so it's harder to get someone to hit themselves than it is to get an entire town to start civil war for no apparent reason?

[Coidzor]

Wait, so it's harder to get someone to hit themselves than it is to get an entire town to start civil war for no apparent reason?

ayup. Screwy, ain't it?

[Diefje]

Wait, so it's harder to get someone to hit themselves than it is to get an entire town to start civil war for no apparent reason?

I'm sure any Commoner 1 could just use his 5d4 gp to get someone to do it.