Anima Mage vs. Ultimate Magus

[Malachei]

If you had to choose between both Prestige Classes and could take only one, which one would you select and why? (Yes, I know the builds that combine both. No, I don't want to discuss them here.)

Apart from flavor, which is the more powerful option in your opinion and why?

Let's assume the character's role is primary arcane caster.

For the Anima Mage, let's assume standard RAW early entry with Improved Binding (i.e. Binder 1 / Wizard 3 / Anima Mage X).

For the Ultimate Magus, let's assume Beguiler on the spontaneous side, Illumian race with Krau sigil and Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) for 10/10 advancement on the prepared caster side. No other early-entry cheese, not even Precocious Apprentice.

[erikun]

I am not that familiar with Incarnum, so my vote will be going towards the Ultimate Magus. Spontaneous metamagic to your Wizard spells, along with some fun combinations (Wizard/Bard will be quite different than something like Wizard/Warmage) make it interesting to play. Practiced Spellcaster is almost required, though.

As for strength, unless we are using double-progression UM trickery, Anima Mage would probably be the better option. You'll be giving up just one(?) caster level through multiclassing in exchange for around ten levels of Incarnum, and as I understand it, Incarnum progresses based on your character level rather than class level - meaning that the abilities you can get will still be useful at 20th level.

[Urpriest]

If you want to gish, it's probably better to have vestiges than beguiler casting. As a primary caster the beguiler casting is probably more useful. The metamagic abilities are roughly on par, especially with access to sufficient Dragon content to make Persist a +5.

[Psyren]

The UM is stronger for several reasons:

- Beguiler is stronger overall than Binder (Beguiler is at the top end of T3, nearly T2)
- There is more synergy between Wiz/Beg than Wiz/Bin (both the casting stat, and spell-school-wise - a Wizard can easily drop Illusion and Enchantment with a Beguiler half.)
-The UM's metamagic ability is usable more often and has no cooldown, so you can easily go nova if you need to, whereas the AM has to wait to use his again and has limited uses/day.

But I wouldn't do Anima Mage, personally; I'd use the divine adaptation on ToM pg. 53 (Anima Priest) instead, go into AP with Cleric/Binder, and finally go into Tenebrous Apostate to gain 9th-level spells and 8th-level vestiges.

Priests can gish more easily too thanks to divine power (easily Persisted via Vestige Metamagic or DMM)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say Ultimate Magus is the better of the two due to versatility. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you can use Able Learner to keep up your ranks in those useful Beguiler skills (Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Search, and Sense Motive are all good to have). With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend Beguiler spell slots to cast situational Wizard spells you've learned, and to gain early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list. It's one of the better options for a party skillmonkey as well, considering you can just break down or Shatter/Knock locked doors and use Summon Monster 1 or the Summon Elemental reserve feat to Nodwick any traps you find.

[AmberVael]

I am not that familiar with Incarnum...

Heh, that's clear. Anima Mage has nothing to do with Incarnum at all.
Anima Mage is from Tome of Magic. It's a Binder/Arcane class. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

The incarnum/caster hybrid is Soulcaster. It is capable of some nice tricks but is generally seen as not being very strong.

Its psionic counterpart however (Soul Manifester) has considerably more power, especially combined with Ardent.

[Tokuhara]

If you had to choose between both Prestige Classes and could take only one, which one would you select and why? (Yes, I know the builds that combine both. No, I don't want to discuss them here.)

Apart from flavor, which is the more powerful option in your opinion and why?

Let's assume the character's role is primary arcane caster.

For the Anima Mage, let's assume standard RAW early entry with Improved Binding (i.e. Binder 1 / Wizard 3 / Anima Mage X).

For the Ultimate Magus, let's assume Beguiler on the spontaneous side, Illumian race with Krau sigil and Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) for 10/10 advancement on the prepared caster side. No other early-entry cheese, not even Precocious Apprentice.

Anima Mage. nuff said

[Psyren]

Power-wise, they are ranked as:

Anima Priest/Apostate
Ultimate Magus
Anima Mage

Flavorwise - Binder/anything just wins, so I would go with AP.

[hex0]

I love Ultimate Magus much more it is much more easily exploited, especially with feats/PRCs that combine caster level: Spellthief, Nar Demonbinder, Sublime Chord, etc.

Some Combos:

Warmage/Wizard
Beguiler/Telflammor Shadowlord
Trickster Spellthief/Wizard

[marcielle]

UM allows you to either go nova all day or stack metamagic like a deck of decks. Yes, I wrote that right, thats how much metamagic you get.
But I don't know anythingabout Anima Mage so I cant really compare.

[Malachei]

I am really surprised. I tried to specify my question as clearly as possible.

Now I find that several of the answers are completely unnecessary, because the poster does not know one of the classes (it comes to me as a surprise why someone would want to answer my OP, then). Others don't answer the question or give no reasons. And then some post wrong information, which in turn provokes posts from others correcting them (thanks, by the way). What do you answer for? Post count?

I am saying this in a friendly mood, and not to blame anyone. It just comes to me as a surprise that of 10 answers, only 3 are actually addressing my question in a meaningful way.

[Doc Roc]

I prefer anima mage, due to its bizarrely easy entry requirements, early access, and general excellence. It provides fast and elegant access to persist, and in conjunction with some of the odder or more esoteric vestiges it offers a stupidly excellent power boost.

Kas and Primus are in Dragon Magozine #341
Zercylllcylcyl (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)!

While I love UM, I would never use it with a beguiler base.

[JaronK]

Anima Mage by a country mile. Three free metamagics per day alone is amazing... and unlike Ultimate Magus, you have no limit to the level of the spell or the metamagic adjustment, so you can persist your highest level spells if you want. Binding Zceryll, Naberius, or the other comboable vestiges is amazing too. Now, personally I'd enter it with Archivist (using the divine adaptation) so I could then finish out with Tenebrous Apostate 5, but that's not actually necessary. The other big Anima Mage advantage is that you don't lose any spellcasting levels past the first one. UM loses 3 from its higher level class during the progression, and that's two full spell levels behind a straight Wizard. Ouch.

Ultimate Magus just gives more spells per day, for the most part, plus a less powerful metamagic ability. Anima Mage adds in a huge number of things that just combo so well with spellcasting it's incredible.

JaronK

[Doc Roc]

"Improved Binding- Take this immediately. With this feat, you need only one binder level and can qualify for the PrC as early as level 3. Losing only one caster level is win, so do it."

From this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866226/Anima_Mage_Handbook).

[AmberVael]

^: Man, using improved binding is in the first post.


I am saying this in a friendly mood, and not to blame anyone. It just comes to me as a surprise that of 10 answers, only 3 are actually addressing my question in a meaningful way.

That's actually a pretty decent percentage. :smalltongue:

Just to add in my own voice beyond a correction though, I think I'd personally go with Anima Mage.

Ultimate Magus IS a potent option. It allows some metamagic shenanigans (which are always good for a caster), gives you a very nice caster level boost (for longer lasting spells, better effects, and better chance to pierce SR), some spontaneity (nicely augmenting the Wizard's prepared casting) and more spells known, which hey, why not.

This all said, Anima Mage, I think, may actually end up adding more options. Most of what Ultimate Magus gives you doesn't truly add versatility onto your power list. What beguiler is best at (spells) and Ultimate Magus is best at (spells) are what Wizard is better than both of them at. Anima Mage adds in something new entirely, a very different array of abilities that you can use much more frequently (as most Vestiges grant at will type powers).

Both builds will be pretty good. I think Anima Mage may be more fun, durable, and versatile, however, even if Ultimate Magus has more stopping power (which is debatable).

[GoatBoy]

I say Anima Mage. You lose fewer caster levels, and you can use vestiges to shore up your weaknesses while still destroying things with max caster level. UM might be more versatile, but a full arcane caster is versatile enough, and it has the raw power which two lower casters lack.

Why cast two spells when one will do?

[Psyren]

@ OP: I gave you three reasons why I figured UM was stronger, so I hope you're not referring to me. But AP > UM definitely.


AThe other big Anima Mage advantage is that you don't lose any spellcasting levels past the first one. UM loses 3 from its higher level class during the progression, and that's two full spell levels behind a straight Wizard. Ouch.

Actually, there's an easy way around that - you just have to use Practiced Spellcaster to keep your Beguiler caster level up.

From the Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) entry:

"At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level.
...
If all your arcane spellcasting classes have equal caster levels, you can apply this benefit to any of your existing arcane spellcasting classes."

Apply PSc to your Beguiler level and it will stay even with Wizard all the way through UM. This will allow you to choose which one gets the increase - naturally, you apply all the single-class boosts to Wizard, making it 10/10 progression.

[Malachei]

Thanks, Vael.

And no, Psyren, I was not referring to you.

I must repeat myself, though, and ask everyone to read the OP. For instance, using Practiced Spellcaster and Illumian (Krau sigil) for 10/10 caster level progression is in the OP, already, so I'm a bit surprised people complain about Ultimate Magus causing caster level loss.

Everyone familiar with Anima Mage will know they get free Metamagic (3/day at PrC level 9, but not capped to spell levels etc. -- although it costs a swift action), as well, a spell slot of the highest level and the ability to cast a spell as an immediate action, silent and still, once per day.

So, if I had thought this was a trivial question, I would not have posted it here. I think it deserves a close look at the classes, abilities and restrictions.

[Doc Roc]

To clarify my earlier post:

Practiced may resolve caster level, but does not resolve spell progression. The PrC that reduces your spell progression rate the least is always the best.

Getting into UM costs feats and spell progression levels. Anima Mage has similar costs, but they're more easily defrayed. More importantly, Anima Mage comes online earlier for the cost of a single (excellent) feat, leaving more build space open.

Using the practiced trick with UM insures that one side of your casting is so gimp as to be nothing more than fuel. Not using it blows up your spell progression rate. Which means that it's basically good but not great. I would use it with a fast progression class such as Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder, or even beholder mage for unlimited hilarity. But not with wiz\beguiler.

Anima Mage is unremittingly awesome. This is my deeper analysis. Zercyl alone makes it a no-contest victory, never mind persisting things from arcane lists with no serious impediment. Psy's anima priest suggestion is excellent, but the worth of arcane persist is vastly under-estimated. Speaking from Test of Spite experience, builds that could reliably persist more than two arcane spells were generally hugely problematic. Anima mage very nearly got banned, in fact, but it was deemed less harmful than DMM which we permitted based on the sheer number of builds it produced.

Basically, Anima Mage. Go Go Go.

[JaronK]

If you make UM into a 10/10 class, then your Beguiler casting seriously suffers. At which point, we have to ask what the point of that Beguiler casting was in the first place. If you enter at Wizard 5/Beguiler 1 (can't go earlier due to skill requirements), and then lose three levels off Beguiler, when you end the class at level 16 you've lost 7 Beguiler levels and max out at 4th level spells as a Beguiler. That means you can't ever power Persistent Spell off your Beguiler levels, even if you had Easy Metamagic to lower the cost to 5. And you can only apply free metamagics to 5th level and below spells. I just don't see how UM gains all that much.

By comparison, at 14th level (when you're already done with Anima Mage), you can persist 7th level spells. Extend them first (with a rod of Extend) and you can have 6 persistent spells up all day long. That's a huge advantage. You can also cast any one spell as an immediate action... a move UM just can't compare to.

So, when you break it down, AM's Metamagic is FAR superior to UM's metamagic, even if it has fewer uses per day. And vestiges add a huge amount, but severely lowered Beguiler casting adds very little. Plus, if you do the divine AM route, you can go Tenebrous Apostate... while the UM has nowhere to go.

JaronK

[erikun]

Heh, that's clear. Anima Mage has nothing to do with Incarnum at all.
Anima Mage is from Tome of Magic. It's a Binder/Arcane class. :smallwink:
Oh. Well, I'm glad I didn't sound like I knew what I was talking about. :smalltongue:

I will admit, I hadn't considered using Augmented Casting for higher metamagic (e.g. Persistent Spell). That pretty much makes it the Wizard version of Divine Metamagic. :smalleek: Especially if you can get eight 5th level spell slots out of the spontaneous class - or have good spontaneous spells to persist.

[JaronK]

That's kind of the problem... if you augment the Beguiler side so that you still get 10/10 casting out of the Wizard side, you don't even get 5th level spells. So you really can't power the top level metamagics. Quicken is nice of course, but then you're draining all your Beguiler abilities for some quickens per day... in which case the Anima Mage's Immediate Spell ability is worth another look...

JaronK

[Psyren]

Anima Mage Immediate Spell is 1/day though.

I had forgotten the cap on spells (5th) you could metamagic with UM, so that does lean things in AM's favor. But there are some errors in you guys' analyses, most notably that you can enter UM at Wiz 4/Beg 1. And entering with Wiz 3/Beg 2 should make it possible to use persist along with Easy Metamagic, not to mention gaining the use of Versatile Spellcaster for higher-level Beguiler spells. Without a way to continue vestige progression either, the two builds are closer together than they appear to be.

[JaronK]

Right right, Wizard 4/Beguiler 1 would be legit, and that would lead to just 6 lost Beguiler levels (so you get 9th level Beguiler casting at 15). That's still not enough to get 5th level spells. If you go Wizard 3/Beguiler 2, you just lost an extra Wizard level compared to Anima Mage, so that's still not so good.

But again, Tenenbrous Apostate means you can advance Binding further if you use the divine adaptation and Archivist. And even without that... the ability to bind up to (IIRC) 6th level Vestiges is a lot better than 4th level Beguiler spells. As a Wizard, you could probably already cast all those 4th level Beguiler spells (or at least all that you care about) so those exist only to power your metamagics, really. But you couldn't all day spam Summon Monster for utility, or play with the thousand and one Naberius Abuses (Tainted Sorcerer for endless all day metamagic!).

JaronK

[Psyren]

If you go Wizard 3/Beguiler 2, you just lost an extra Wizard level compared to Anima Mage, so that's still not so good.

You still get 9ths so it's not the end of the world. And you can persist more than 3 spells/day, and do so without waiting 5 rounds between castings, and use more free metamagic besides. (Not to mention getting free metamagic through the bonus feats.)

It's more of a wash in my opinion. And UM pushes ahead post-epic once you're able to get dual 9s.


Anima Priest wins hands down, I'll never dispute that.

[gkathellar]

Wizard/Heartfire Fanner/Sublime Chord/UM has some minor MAD problems, but it also gets a CL of 33 on both sides.

[Doc Roc]

Arcane. Persist.

Arcane persist.

ARCANE PERSIST. Relatively early game. I love UM, but in a game where you have to actually play to 20, AM is superior. Wizard/Anima Mage over wiz/beg/um.

[JaronK]

You still get 9ths so it's not the end of the world. And you can persist more than 3 spells/day, and do so without waiting 5 rounds between castings, and use more free metamagic besides. (Not to mention getting free metamagic through the bonus feats.)

You're not persisting anything without 5th level spells. So you need Versatile Spellcaster (to get the 5th level Beguiler spells) + Easy Metamagic (Persistant Spell). And then you still can't persist (or in fact free Metamagic at all) anything about 5th level. I think that's the real killer here: Anima Mage can use its metamagic abilities on higher level spells. That's pretty huge, I'd say.

Plus, being a full spell level behind a normal Wizard really hurts like hell.

And if it's in play... Tainted Sorcerer. Just that. You can take it as a 1 level dip at the end of Anima Mage and it's all over, no contest (use Zceryll summons to manage your taint level).

JaronK

[Malachei]

Why do Ultimate Magus questions always end up in people discussing caster levels lost or not lost (it is all in the first post) and continue with crazy build advice? Huh?

Ultimate Magus gets, among other things, 8th level beguiler casting and applied metamagic 8 times per day, to a spell of up to 5th level, and with a metamagic modifier of up to 4 (equaling 4th level spell slot from the beguiler side).

Anima Mage can apply metamagic with no cap to spell level or metamagic modifier 3/day at Prestige Class level 9. This means, eventually, persisting, twinning or quickening 9th level spells. Persisting 9th level spells is nice. And casting a spell as an immediate action is simulating celerity without the daze. Not as good as the metamagic, but still not bad.

Just to make sure: I don't want to talk about Incantatrix now. I know they can persist better. That said, I really, really don't want to talk about DMM Persists. Believe me, I know this, as well. I just want to talk about the questions addressed in the first post. Please!

[Psyren]

Relatively early game. I love UM, but in a game where you have to actually play to 20, AM is superior.

And post-epic it reverses again:

UM 20 can persist NI buffs of all levels.
AM 20 can persist 3.

[Malachei]

As the AM's metamagic progression follows a pattern, I think you can assume that to continue in an epic progression. Actually, in this case, it would progress nicely.

[Doc Roc]

Each time I return, I find your Kung Fu has grown in my absence, Jaron K. I grant you 9th Dan status.

[Psyren]

As the AM's metamagic progression follows a pattern, I think you can assume that to continue in an epic progression. Actually, in this case, it would progress nicely.

Arguable - it does every other level, but only for the last half of the class. So the formula would at the very least have you drop 5 levels for every 5 levels of progression.

Meanwhile, UM explicitly lets you do (1/2 * UM level) for max spell level, uses/day unlimited (as long as you have slots on spontaneous side.)

[gkathellar]

Again, the best pre-epic way to use UM is with Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder. In addition to being far better at fueling metamagic, either can be used alongside Versatile Spellcasting to give you access to Wizard spells you haven't prepared.


Each time I return, I find your Kung Fu has grown in my absence, Jaron K. I grant you 9th Dan status.

I think you're mixing your metaphors. :smalltongue:

[Malachei]

Arguable - it does every other level, but only for the last half of the class. So the formula would at the very least have you drop 5 levels for every 5 levels of progression.

Meanwhile, UM explicitly lets you do (1/2 * UM level) for max spell level, uses/day unlimited (as long as you have slots on spontaneous side.)


UM's use per day is limited to 3 + 1/2 class level.

[JaronK]

It's still a straight forward pattern of "every other level." But more importantly, eventually you'd get epic vestiges, which are pretty darn incredible (not that it matters if Epic Spellcasting is in place, of course).

Honestly, I don't think we should be talking about epic, because neither class matters at that point. It's just Epic Spellcasting taking over.

As a side by side comparison, UM just doesn't seem to cut it in any way. More cheap metamagics isn't as good as better cheap metamagics. Gimped Beguiler casting doesn't compare to the binding opportunities (especially since you already get all the best vestiges with Binder Level 13 anyway...at least pre epic).

JaronK

[Doc Roc]

I think you're mixing your metaphors. :smalltongue:

All too happily.

[gkathellar]

It's still a straight forward pattern of "every other level." But more importantly, eventually you'd get epic vestiges, which are pretty darn incredible (not that it matters if Epic Spellcasting is in place, of course).

Honestly, I don't think we should be talking about epic, because neither class matters at that point. It's just Epic Spellcasting taking over.

As a side by side comparison, UM just doesn't seem to cut it in any way. More cheap metamagics isn't as good as better cheap metamagics. Gimped Beguiler casting doesn't compare to the binding opportunities (especially since you already get all the best vestiges with Binder Level 13 anyway...at least pre epic).

I'm not so convinced it's outclassed. If used correctly, it gets you CL shenanigans, free metamagic, and extra spells per day that you don't have to bother preparing. A lot of those tricks are accessible on their own, but UM is unique in that it brings them together and synchronizes them so well.

[Psyren]

Fair enough, I admit defeat. I do personally prefer Anima Mage's fluff anyway :smalltongue:

But if it's an option... Anima Priest, OP.

[Malachei]

Some people seem to agree with my point of view that Anima Mage is an excellent choice, probably better than Ultimate Magus if we compare them within the original post's assumptions.

Btw, I agree that caster level +4 is great, as well, especially as you are just one caster level behind, it is a net +3. Still.

What, in your opinion, are the best Vestiges and Vestige combinations for a primary arcane caster?

I know there's a lot of advice in the handbooks, but mostly on Vestiges for general characters or gishes. Not that much focus on Vestige selection for a primary arcane caster. Some are obvious, of course, such as Karsus, which is normally the first mentioned for casters.

[JaronK]

And yeah, Anima Priest just destroys everything, especially if Tainted Sorcerer is allowed. Free metamagic all day long? Don't mind if I do. Besides, even just giggling for a little bit before casting Persistent Consumptive Field is worth the entire class in some ways...

Best Vestiges, though:

Zceryll. Seriously, if you can't solve your problem with all day Summon Monster, you're not trying hard enough. You can summon healers, fliers, melees, even people to spam Divination for you until you know everything you wanted to know about. And Mindsight is freaking awesome (even though obviously a Mindbender dip could have gotten you that, but then it would cost a feat). It frees up a lot of spells you'd otherwise want to cast.

Naberius. Sack your stats for fun and profit, and get them right back. There's just so many options... Corrupt/Sanctified spells, the various rituals (such as the ritual of Shadow Walking for all day teleportation at the cost of con damage when you use it), and so on. And you get to be a Diplomancer with standard action Diplomacy, because this first level vestige wasn't strong enough already.

Malphas. Remote spell targeting without worrying about range penalties to spot. Plus you get Sudden Strike, so your ray spells just got a ton better. And you gain utility a scout. Plus, Invisibility whenever you want is pretty handy.

Ipos. Just because you can use its abilities with Zceryll. Why not?

Astaroth. Pick a new Item Creation Feat every day. Now you can make whatever items you want. If you have downtime, why wouldn't you do this?

JaronK

[Malachei]

Who would allow Tainted Sorcerer?

Thanks for mentioning Naberius... I just had an idea.

[Psyren]

Who would allow Tainted Sorcerer?

No Sane DM™

[Akal Saris]

And yeah, Anima Priest just destroys everything, especially if Tainted Sorcerer is allowed. Free metamagic all day long? Don't mind if I do. Besides, even just giggling for a little bit before casting Persistent Consumptive Field is worth the entire class in some ways...

Best Vestiges, though:

Zceryll. Seriously, if you can't solve your problem with all day Summon Monster, you're not trying hard enough. You can summon healers, fliers, melees, even people to spam Divination for you until you know everything you wanted to know about. And Mindsight is freaking awesome (even though obviously a Mindbender dip could have gotten you that, but then it would cost a feat). It frees up a lot of spells you'd otherwise want to cast.

Naberius. Sack your stats for fun and profit, and get them right back. There's just so many options... Corrupt/Sanctified spells, the various rituals (such as the ritual of Shadow Walking for all day teleportation at the cost of con damage when you use it), and so on. And you get to be a Diplomancer with standard action Diplomacy, because this first level vestige wasn't strong enough already.

Malphas. Remote spell targeting without worrying about range penalties to spot. Plus you get Sudden Strike, so your ray spells just got a ton better. And you gain utility a scout. Plus, Invisibility whenever you want is pretty handy.

Ipos. Just because you can use its abilities with Zceryll. Why not?

Astaroth. Pick a new Item Creation Feat every day. Now you can make whatever items you want. If you have downtime, why wouldn't you do this?

JaronK

Yeah, basically this. I'm of the opinion that Zceryll is on the too-good-to-be-true list when compared to its competition, like Abjurant Jaunt or Lion Totem barbarian for pounce.

I remember about a year ago I was trying to decide between UM and AM...I went with AM and built a character around the Naberius vestige and using corrupt spells and vile Words of Power for a bunch of fun at-will abilities that cost stat damage which I would easily heal.

[JaronK]

Who would allow Tainted Sorcerer?

Power wise, it's pretty close to Anima Mage really. So, a DM in a really really high optimization game, I'd imagine.


Thanks for mentioning Naberius... I just had an idea.

I assume your DM won't thank me.

JaronK

[Malachei]

I don't think you can compare Anima Mage and Tainted Sorcerer. IMO, Tainted Sorcerer is much more geared towards abuse, while Anima Mage gets (just) very strong abilities.


I assume your DM won't thank me.

I'm the DM, actually, and I do.

[JaronK]

The point was not a comparison... it's that they go together insanely well. Zceryll can summon minions to lower your taint if it gets too high, and both Zceryll and Naberius can be used to heal the con damage quickly so you get endless metamagic.

JaronK

[Malachei]

The question was who'd allow Tainted Sorcerer, and you said,
Power wise, it's pretty close to Anima Mage really. That's a comparison.

But that's not important. Thanks again for your input.

If found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130384) on Zceryll, with arguments that she may in fact been underpowered to some other Vestiges on the same level. I'd also say Summon Monster is not the real deal (although pseudonatural is nice), but for me, Telepathy + Mindsight is an excellent ability.

[Wings of Peace]

Who else finds the idea of an Anima Archivist incredibly sexy both mechanically and stylistically?

[JaronK]

Yeah, it flows together SO well. Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5 flows perfectly, and all the various classes actually fit thematically well too. Archivist is all about using hidden and forbidden knowledge. Binder is about finding power from hidden sources and infusing yourself with it. Anima Mage uses both of those. Tenebrous Apostate uses them both and uses the power of an ancient death god energy. And Tainted Sorcerer powers you off a forbidden source.

And the power... oh god the power. Three unrestricted free metamagics per day, endless free metamagics if they don't go over your maximum casting level, no material component costs, easy magic item creation... there's very little this class can't do.

JaronK

[Malachei]

If I'd want to have an arcane (wizard) anima mage, what would you fill levels 15-20 with?

[JaronK]

Runesmith. A class that's only not super overpowered because everyone gets distracted by the Shadowcraft Mage class sitting right next to it.

Any Wizard spell as a spell like ability? Oh heck yes. How about True Creation?

JaronK

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, it flows together SO well. Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5 flows perfectly, and all the various classes actually fit thematically well too. Archivist is all about using hidden and forbidden knowledge. Binder is about finding power from hidden sources and infusing yourself with it. Anima Mage uses both of those. Tenebrous Apostate uses them both and uses the power of an ancient death god energy. And Tainted Sorcerer powers you off a forbidden source.

And the power... oh god the power. Three unrestricted free metamagics per day, endless free metamagics if they don't go over your maximum casting level, no material component costs, easy magic item creation... there's very little this class can't do.

JaronK

And it makes an excellent final boss for either a binder focused game/campaign or for an end of the world type cult game (where the PC's are preventing the return of Tenebrous).

Powerful, thematic, and down right nasty for the party to fight.

[JaronK]

Dear lord I wouldn't want to fight that. Guarenteed to have a giant undead swarm that he can heal easily, massive flexibility in spells, and almost certain to have Mindsight up so you can't surprise him. Heck, it's probably not even him you're fighting. It's probably a Simulacrum or something, testing out your abilities before the real guy comes to slaughter you wholesale.

JaronK

[Malachei]

Thank you for the suggestion.

Archmage can give you spells as SLA, as well. Also, I would not necessarily want to be a Dwarf.

Unless you take more Binder levels, you are stuck with effective binder level 13, which is two short of 7th level Vestiges, and, perhaps more importantly, is one short of having 3 Vestiges at a time.

Is there anything that would be able to advance both arcane spellcasting and binding? Probably not per RAW, but perhaps adapted, like Mystic Theurge often is? Dweomerkeeper? Also can (Su) spells.

[Psyren]

Also, I would not necessarily want to be a Dwarf.

Nitpick: there is an adaptation that makes Runesmith open to non-dwarves, though it recommends making the entry requirements tougher to compensate. (Though once you hit ECL 15, it should hardly matter.)

Runesmith is extremely powerful as well, because it lets you hand out personal-only buffs to the party, even party members that can't use scrolls.

[Malachei]

I feel the class flavor is very, well, dwarvish.

The class text only says
If you create a nondwarven version of this class, make the entry requirements somewhat tougher and develop a strong story to support these rune-carving arcanists.

Where would I find the adaptation?

[Emperor Tippy]

Dear lord I wouldn't want to fight that. Guarenteed to have a giant undead swarm that he can heal easily, massive flexibility in spells, and almost certain to have Mindsight up so you can't surprise him. Heck, it's probably not even him you're fighting. It's probably a Simulacrum or something, testing out your abilities before the real guy comes to slaughter you wholesale.

JaronK

Well the players were fighting the real thing because to pull off the ritual to return Tenebrous required the focus (the Big Bad) to stay within a specially prepared ritual area for a full year.

[Psyren]

I feel the class flavor is very, well, dwarvish.

It could fit any cabal of armored mages. I could see it work very well with a rogue sect of Warforged Wizards for instance, especially if they are the ones that go around creating Spellcarved Soldiers.


Where would I find the adaptation?

Yeah, that was it. Do you see the bolded "Adaptation" at the beginning of that paragraph? :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Well the players were fighting the real thing because to pull off the ritual to return Tenebrous required the focus (the Big Bad) to stay within a specially prepared ritual area for a full year.

Ah, well, still freaking terrifying if played smart.

As for the Runesmith, the "not dwarf" version is found only in your DMs head. Really strong though.

If you don't want to be a Dwarf, there's other options... sadly none of them advancing Binding. But other than Epic Vestiges I'm pretty sure a Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10 already has all the good ones. Binding's not like spells... the best vestiges aren't necessarily the highest level ones. Naberius is darn good all the way up the levels, for example.

Shadowcraft Mage could be a lot of fun if you were okay with being a Gnome. Just be an Illusionist (UA Variant) to get Hide as a class skill for Wizards. That concealment effect could really help if you use Persistant buffs and Vestiges to melee it up when you felt like it, and the flexibility is awesome.

JaronK

[Malachei]

The Anima Mage would still want three Vestiges, but fear the additional caster level lost.

[Emperor Tippy]

I find binding in general to be a decent dip or decent as part of gestalt but on their own I find them a bit weak.

I mean, most of their abilities are decent but I've found them to just be lacking when it comes to really competing at higher levels.

It's honestly my problem with most of Tome of Magic. I love the fluff for all 3 classes (and most of the prestige classes) and while Binders and Shadowcasters are both decent, I've found both to be noticeably weaker than Tome of Battle.

[Malachei]

I think it is really hard to build a strong Shadowcaster. Truenamers, of course, are pretty weak, but at least the stuff they are good at is easy to optimize. But Binders, IMO, are the strongest among the three. They don't keep up with a cleric, but they can go all day long if need be.

For an Anima Mage, I'd say losing one caster level for 13th level binding (at AM 10) is an excellent deal. Of course, entering the class without the Improved Binding feat does not make much sense.

[Psyren]

Any lack of power in ToM is due to poor execution rather than a poor concept. A Shadowcaster with Ari's fixes can demolish anything in ToB at higher levels, as can Kyeudo's Truenamer.

[Emperor Tippy]

Truenames are a bitch because the class is outright broken, it simply doesn't work at all like it should.

Shadowcasters have excellent fluff but are simply weak and don't really offer any opportunities to optimize them to make them better.

Binders have good fluff and are the best of the ToM classes in terms of both functionality and power but they are still far better off used as a quick dip or the like. In lower level play they can be quite good, but after level 10 or so they really start to fall behind.


Any lack of power in ToM is due to poor execution rather than a poor concept. A Shadowcaster with Ari's fixes can demolish anything in ToB at higher levels, as can Kyeudo's Truenamer.

As I said, great concepts but bad execution for the book.

[Psyren]

Fall behind what? They're T3 without Zceryll and T2 with. Seems a desirable endpoint to me.

[Doc Roc]

Fall behind what? They're T3 without Zceryll and T2 with. Seems a desirable endpoint to me.

And with Anima Mage, they're in the Hurts To Think category of ultra-high T1.