how does dipping crusader and warblade work?

[Phaederkiel]

I have the following character in my group:

knight 6 / Fighter 2

since they just leveled up, the player has spoken her interest to play an crusader, since neither fighter nor Knight offer anything substantial for the next levels.


If I am not mistaken, a knight 6 / Fighter 2 / crusader 1 has an Initiatorlvl of
5, which means he should be able to pick maneuvers up to lvl 3 when the requirements are met.

Now here is the first question: in what order does one pick stances and maneuvers?

1) all at once, meaning she cannot get lvl 3 maneuvers until crusader lvl 2

2) stances first, maneuvers later? Would mean she could take Iron guards glare, thus getting the prereqs to lvl 3 devoted spirit stuff, taking defensive rebuke and revitalizing strike.

3) Maneuvers first, stances second? The problems implied are discussed under the next question.

And here comes Question nr two, the really important one:

Does she pick all her maneuvers at once, meaning again that only lvl1 maneuvers are pickable?

or does she pick in an order, enabling her to pick some lowlvlrequirements and then some highlvl stuff?


If I rule her to be able to pick in an order, is that gamebreaking or rather balancing? The Character is really potent as an dmg absorber, but could hit a bit harder.

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Next question: a character with crusader 1 / warblade 1 has 5 maneuvers known and readied from Crusader AND 3 known and readied from warblade, can thus use 8 maneuvers, albeit with different recovery methods.
Did I get that right?

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Thanking you folks in advance, i want to draw some attention to my other URGENT question about reworking and balancing Blackrazor...Isn't here an optimizer / designer knowing enough to help this foolish newbie?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221997

[Malachei]

5 is right. Initator level for a class is 1/2 other classes (min. 1) + your Initiator class (not addressing Prestige Classes right now... most of those in the ToB advance Initiator level).

1) - 3) and the second question: I've not seen a rule that defines the order. In absence of such a rule, the default rule is you can choose whichever way is more beneficial to your character. I've seen people argue that prerequisites cross-fulfill simultaneously, i.e. your Maneuver A counts as a prerequisite for Maneuver B, and vice versa, at the same time. I would not allow this, but it might be legal by RAW (in the Q&A, there's just "a maneuver can't be its own prerequisite").

EDIT: Regarding the other question: You handle the maneuvers from multiple Initiator classes separately. Note that you can have each maneuver only once (i.e. no taking White Raven Tactics with both Crusader and Warblade). The recovery mechanic is handled separately, as well. It works much like characters with more than one spellcasting class.

As a side note: An often overlooked rule in ToB is that your first Stance must be 1st level. So dipping for Stances requires at least two levels.

EDIT: Also note that maneuvers fulfill prerequisites cross-class. So your Swordsage Tiger Claw maneuvers (and stance) can help you fulfill the prerequisites of a Tiger Claw maneuver you'll take as a Warblade.

This Q&A (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525942/Tome_of_Battle_Q38;A?pg=1) may help, and on BG, there is a follow-up, and Unofficial Errata. It can be helpful, although I don't agree with all of it.

[Phaederkiel]

What the...(this comes from the sage)

Q: The maneuvers known description of the crusader, swordsage, and warblade (in the Tome of Battle) state that you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you already know. However, these descriptions are unclear about whether you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you learned through another class. Can you swap maneuvers gained through different classes?
To clarify this with an example, can a crusader 4/warblade 3 who has taken an additional level in the warblade class and learned a maneuver as a result 'forget' a maneuver that he learned through his crusader levels and learn a warblade maneuver in place of that maneuver?
A: Yes, these abilities do not care what the origin of the replaced maneuver is.

And if it works like this: do you use your newly-swapped maneuver as an warblade or as a crusader?


ps: please help blackrazor
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221997

[Darrin]

Does she pick all her maneuvers at once, meaning again that only lvl1 maneuvers are pickable?


The player can pick in whatever order she wishes, stances first, maneuvers first, or whatever. The only rule that might prevent you from immediately grabbing a higher-level stance is the first sentence in the "Stances Known" section for each martial adept:

"You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance"

So your first stance must be 1st-level, but after that you can take any stance you qualify for. There's some debate about wether this restriction was really intended to work that way, and some DMs handwave it away, since if you're multiclassing into a Martial Adept class later, you're not "beginning play" at that point.



If I rule her to be able to pick in an order, is that gamebreaking or rather balancing? The Character is really potent as an dmg absorber, but could hit a bit harder.


I wouldn't consider it gamebreaking or unbalancing, particularly when considered in the light of a Druidzilla or energy-substituted-split-ray-twin-spell-searing-empowered-maximized-quickened-invisible-arcane-thesis enervation-spamming Wizard/Incantatrix. Massive damage generally doesn't break D&D.



Next question: a character with crusader 1 / warblade 1 has 5 maneuvers known and readied from Crusader AND 3 known and readied from warblade, can thus use 8 maneuvers, albeit with different recovery methods.
Did I get that right?


Yes. However, the Crusader "granted maneuvers" mechanic means he starts with only 2 of his 5 readied maneuvers available at first. Print out the Maneuver Cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) from the WotC website, they're much easier to keep track of that way. If you have two different recovery methods, then you have two different "decks" of maneuvers to choose from.

[Malachei]

What the...(this comes from the sage)

Q: The maneuvers known description of the crusader, swordsage, and warblade (in the Tome of Battle) state that you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you already know. However, these descriptions are unclear about whether you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you learned through another class. Can you swap maneuvers gained through different classes?
To clarify this with an example, can a crusader 4/warblade 3 who has taken an additional level in the warblade class and learned a maneuver as a result 'forget' a maneuver that he learned through his crusader levels and learn a warblade maneuver in place of that maneuver?
A: Yes, these abilities do not care what the origin of the replaced maneuver is.

Well, yes, as I said, I don't agree with all of them. The Sage, CustServe and the are famous for their rules calls. They drew a lot of heat. That may be one of the reasons for WOTC completely dropping the ball on providing rules clarifications for 3.5 when they started 4E (apart from focusing their resources): Clarifications don't get praise anyway.


And if it works like this: do you use your newly-swapped maneuver as an warblade or as a crusader?

To answer the question: It would never work like this in my game. Swapping out a maneuver, IMO, is a class feature that supports another class feature. IMO, it was not intended to work across classes.

[Phaederkiel]

thanks to Malacheis Link I found a passage which exactly transscribes my problem:

Q: I have a PC who is a 16th-level Fighter, and I have recently accrued enough experience points to advance to 17th-level. I would like to take a level in the new Warblade class from Tome of Battle. This entitles me to 3 maneuvers known, and 1 stance known. Because my initiator level is 9, the maximum level of the maneuvers/stances that I can learn is 5th. My question pertains to fulfilling the pre-requisites for different maneuvers and stances. Assuming that I stick to a single discipline when I select my 3 maneuvers known and 1 stance known, Would it be legal for me to acquire one maneuver that has no pre-requisites, a second maneuver that has one maneuver as a pre-requisite, a third maneuver that has two maneuvers as a pre-requisite, and a stance that has three maneuvers as a pre-requisite? In other words, can I use maneuvers/stances as pre-requisites for other maneuvers/stances, even though I am acquiring them all at the same time?
A: Yes, you can certainly do this.


So, thanks to you peoples help, I am very much willing to allow her to go all over the map with selecting her maneuvers.

Thank you very much.:smallsmile:

and Darrin, do not worry. The wizard described here would promptly meet his demise at the sharp end of a pink piano. I have a rule stating that if you want to play a caster, you play something with at least +2 lvl adjustement...


so, these questions solved,may I bother you folks again with helping me creating a balanced Blackrazor? My Session is tommorow evening, I should Know its abilities by then...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221997

[Malachei]

The wizard described here would promptly meet his demise at the sharp end of a pink piano.

* Wonders how you stat out a pink piano *

[Phaederkiel]

lets say its thrown by a deity with lvls in hulking hurler.
and is made of adamantine, to boot.

does 73 hit? do you think 15d6 +50 is enough to kill you? I still have an Blue Organ here, if needed...

[Malachei]

I understand. Though I must say the damage is a bit low, perhaps, to kill a well-protected wizard.

[Phaederkiel]

since the deity in question would like to make a point, i think it would wait until it can place the piano nicely. While the guy is recasting his spells for example, or in the middle of an already tough fight.

[Phaederkiel]

ahem, one last question, ye knowledgeable ones...

has thicket of blades anything to offer to a knight, who already has bulwark of defense? This shuts out everything exept full retreat as far as I know.
And it seems that a full retreat can get away from thicket of blades too, because it isn´t a 5ft step...

The Knight challenges her oponents anyway, so she should not be dealing with people running away much anyway.




Blackrazor!

[Darrin]

* Wonders how you stat out a pink piano *

Complete Warrior p. 159. Given the weight of most combat pianos is around 300ish lbs, 5d6 damage as an improvised weapon. Tighten the strings so it's "sharp", and it doubles the effective weight, so 6d6 damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As a side note: An often overlooked rule in ToB is that your first Stance must be 1st level. So dipping for Stances requires at least two levels.

This is absolutely false. It specifies that you begin play with knowledge of a 1st level stance, not that you can only pick 1st level stances if you multiclass into an initiator class. If a character who plans to multiclass into an initiator class can only pick a 1st level stance for that first one he learns, then he should begin play with knowledge of that stance as it says, regardless of how long he waits to gain his initiator class. Thus a literal interpretation of this is that yes, your first stance known is a 1st level stance, but you begin play with that stance even if you're waiting until level 99 to multiclass into an initiator class. So either you take this as it was intended, and only apply it to characters who start at 1st level with an initiator class, or every character in every one of your games will get to start play with three stances known regardless of classes, as they'll all intend to eventually multiclass into each of the three initiator classes at some point.

[Darrin]

has thicket of blades anything to offer to a knight, who already has bulwark of defense?


Yes. Thicket of Blades allows you to AoO opponents that are closing towards you from outside your threatened area. Bulwark of Defense only works on opponents that started their turn in your threatened area.

Thicket of Blades + Stand Still is the key combo for any "Lockdown" build, but you need reach of at least 15'-20' to make sure most medium-sized targets can't get close enough to attack.



This shuts out everything exept full retreat as far as I know.
And it seems that a full retreat can get away from thicket of blades too, because it isn´t a 5ft step...


But it's still movement, which triggers Thicket of Blades.



The Knight challenges her oponents anyway, so she should not be dealing with people running away much anyway.


What I find most amusing about the Knight's Challenge is what happens when the Knight is invisible, which isn't explicitly against the Knight's Code.

[Malachei]

This is absolutely false. It specifies that you begin play with knowledge of a 1st level stance

I'd disagree. Because it is an explanation of a class ability in the class section. For a Crusader, this text reads (for the other classes, it is similar):



"You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from the Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, or White Raven discipline. At 2nd, 8th, and 14th level, you can choose an additional stance."

This applies to the stance progression, and to the class level at which you get a stance. The first part addresses the class level 1.

The Tome of Battle Handbook seems to agree:

Dipping for Stances: An easily missed clause within Tome of Battle is that the stance granted at level 1 of each of the base classes has to be a 1st level stance (a restriction that does not apply to other maneuver choices). This means dipping for higher level stances generally requires an investment of at least 2 levels.

(EDIT: Although most know it, just to make sure, the handbook is actually called Tome of Battle for Dummies).

[Phaederkiel]

Yes. Thicket of Blades allows you to AoO opponents that are closing towards you from outside your threatened area. Bulwark of Defense only works on opponents that started their turn in your threatened area.

well, this needs a reach weapon anyway, does it not? It doesn´t seem to work if an enemy just steps into my 5 foot reach.



Thicket of Blades + Stand Still is the key combo for any "Lockdown" build, but you need reach of at least 15'-20' to make sure most medium-sized targets can't get close enough to attack.

What I find most amusing about the Knight's Challenge is what happens when the Knight is invisible, which isn't explicitly against the Knight's Code.

I know that most knights use reach stuff, but this Knight wants to be attacked: she uses shocktrooper to charge a single enemy and karmic strikes everyone to death who tries to attack her (with her AC as low as 6, and +18 to dmg,this is quite easy). She uses a keen falchion to spread the crits and relies on her dmgreduction (and crystal-gained Lifeleech) to survive.

As a question:

can I use mountain Hammer to charge?

[Bakkan]

As a question:

can I use mountain Hammer to charge?

No. Mountain Hammer takes a standard action to activate, while charge is a full-round action.

[Malachei]

Charge is a standard action.

[Fax Celestis]

Charge is a standard action.

No it is not.


Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks

A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge

Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

[deuxhero]

I have a rule stating that if you want to play a caster, you play something with at least +2 lvl adjustement...


What's that monster that casts as a high level Wizard with RHD around the caster level? Black something...

[Malachei]

Oh! Again, I proudly admit my 3.0 heritage (where it was a standard action). :)

Of course, in 3.5, in most cases, it is still a standard action, because you can charge as a standard action if you can't carry out full-round action (during a surprise round for instance), and this, IMO is where it sees the most use (except for Pouncers).

It can even be a move action.

[Phaederkiel]

I don't know, the text is:

Part of this maneuver, you make a single meelee atack. Which, as I know, is a standard action. Can I not make this Standard Action while charging?

[Malachei]

Unfortunately, the maneuver's initiation action is a standard action: you initiate it as a standard action, and in doing so, carry out its effect: "As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra 2d6 points of damage and automatically overcomes damage reduction and hardness."

It works similar to casting a spell. And therefore, having spent a standard action to initiate a maneuver, you cannot spend the same action for a charge.

There are maneuvers though, which explicitly generate a charge effect. Charging Minotaur is one example. And, of course, there are other maneuvers (especially boosts, which take only a swift action) and stances that support charging.


What's that monster that casts as a high level Wizard with RHD around the caster level? Black something...

Black Ethergaunt.

[Darrin]

I don't know, the text is:

Part of this maneuver, you make a single meelee atack. Which, as I know, is a standard action. Can I not make this Standard Action while charging?

No. If charge allowed you to take a standard action, then you could do all sorts of wacky stuff like charge in, drink a potion, activate a magic item, etc. When you charge, you can make a single melee attack at the end of your charge, but this is not the same as being granted a standard action.

Likewise, just because a Martial Strike allows you to make a single melee attack doesn't mean it can be swapped around with anything else that allows a single melee attack.

An "attack" or "attack action" doesn't always have a clearly defined action type associated with it, and there are several examples of attacks that don't require or use any action at all: attacks of opportunity, Cleave attack, and the attack after using Improved Trip. Even Spring Attack screwed this up, since it doesn't give you a standard action, either, but an "attack action", which is never really defined. Only Fly-By Attack actually explicitly gives you a standard action that you can use to activate Martial Strikes.