Unconventional theurge

[Ormur]

Players stay out!

Is it possible to get a halfway decent level 20 character with beguiler and psion casting non-gestalt. What sort of early entry tricks are there?

At worst even if you can't get double nines I imagine low level psion things like schism might help out 9th level beguiler spells.

[Qwertystop]

You will be able to get double nines. I'm not sure how, but I saw a build with triple nines (maneuvers, powers, spells). Double nines should be comparatively easy.

[Ormur]

I imagine ardent would be easier with practised manifester and with Substitute Powers I might be able to swing it instead of a psion. The problem is I don't know what early entry tricks are possible for a beguiler or if there are any for a psion.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I made a build that had 9th arcane and 6th psionics. Started with Beguiler base but I uses Sublime Cord+Psi/Arcane theruge to do it so I'm not sure of that will work for you. You'll have 3rd Beguiler and 4-9th sorc/bard casting. When I get on a real computer I'll link it for you.

[Kaje]

Human Beguiler 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer 10 / Legacy Champion 6

Take Versatile Spellcaster. Technically, I think this can give you ninth level spells and powers, but you won't actually be able to cast the Beguiler ninth-level spells. Just be able to cast your eighth level spells as ninths.

[MesiDoomstalker]

As promised, Psi/Beguiler theurge build:

Beguiler 1/Psion 1/Beguiler +1/Psion +2/Mindbender (progressing Beguiler) 1/Beguiler +3/Bard 1/Sublime Cord 1/Cerebremancer 9.

Note that is regular Bard and not Prestige Bard. You need perform for Pretige Bard and niether Psion and Beguiler have it nor Mindbender or any PrC I could find without loosing spellcasting/manifesting. This also lets you choose 1 2nd or 1st level spell to your Beguiler list from Advanced Learning. With Practised Manifester/Spellcaster your M/CL will be 16/20 respectively. Full 9 arcane and 6th powers. You can rearrange the First 5 levels so long as you don't hit Beguiler 3 till after Mindbender otherwise you won't get Advanced Learning for 2nd. Beguiler is also a better start as you'll have substainlly more skill points to spread around for the crazy pre-reqs you have to meet. Able Learner is suggested.

[Ormur]

I think I've settled on Beguiler 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 7/Mind Mage 9 + taking the final level in Mind Mage, two more Cerebremancer levels and a Mindbender and Beguiler level (for advanced learning mindrape) in some combination if I head into epic.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think I've settled on Beguiler 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 7/Mind Mage 9 + taking the final level in Mind Mage, two more Cerebremancer levels and a Mindbender and Beguiler level (for advanced learning mindrape) in some combination if I head into epic.

You need Beguiler 4 for Cerebremancer unless you use early entry tricks.

[Flickerdart]

If your DM doesn't allow early entry, it's not that much of a blow, since you can just take Practiced Manifester and augment low-level powers (which are oftentimes more useful than higher-level powers).

[Ormur]

It's the BBEG build and I'm the DM so that shouldn't be a big problem. :smallbiggrin:

I've decided I'm comfortable with the versatile spellcaster + heighten trick for early entry. I think it's necessary since there is no way to get in early with psionic manifesting and theurges kind of need early entry. It also means I can get 9th level powers at 20. The problem is that for story reasons I kind of need mindrape so I might push him a bit into epic for 9th level spells on the beguiler side without touching epic spellcasting itself.

Originally I was aiming for a Beguiler with a bit of psionic boost. But since I can't get psionic manifesting without sacrificing 9th level spells before 20 I can just as well get double nines. Now I think it might even be a good idea since stronger is generally better for BBEG. There are two casters in the group and I don't expect them to tackle him successfully until they have 9th level spells themselves.

Alternatively I could throw out the Mind Mage that looses two caster and manifester levels and seems to be pretty powerful (boosts CL and ML significantly) and just take beguiler up to 21st level and let practiced manifester and 6th level powers suffice.

I'm deliberately not making him a wizard because then I could just make him arbitrarily powerful and I want to try something different. I'm new to psionics and beguilers are a lot more reasonable than wizards.