Fourth and final attempt at warrior VS wizard PVP [Archive]

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 11:14 AM

Hi all,

this is my last go at making making warriors for level 20 pvp. the rules are the same as in previous threads:

"arena is a 1000 ft cube, leaving the arena forfeits, celerity is allowed, only 1 contingency allowed, match lasts 50 rounds, audiance or DM decide the winner if both combatants still active at the end. I've used whatever books i can find for the warrior so the wizard can do the same".

This time i've tried to build an absolute turtle, with high touch AC, high saves, immunities, evasion, etc.

the build's offensive capability is very limited, but i'd be interested to know how long people think it would survive in the arena.

your opponents don't neccessarily know that they are going to be fighting a warrior. for example, if you put this build into a pvp tournament i imagine most people would play spellcasters; the build is designed with that in mind.

also, your opponents may not have optimized to the extent that i have tried to do with this build.

anyway here's the build, let me know what you think:

Raptoran level 20 VoP mage slayer

HP: 317
Touch AC: 51
BAB: +12/+7/+2
Attack: Greatsword +17/+12/+7
Speed: 30 ft land or 60 ft flying
Saves:
Fortitude: 33
Reflex: 29
Will: 31

Classes:
Monk 2 (Invisible eye variant, UA p.52) Provides evasion, combat expertise, improved trip
Totemist 2 (unearthed arcane, p.29) blink shirt!
Swordsage 1 (Wis to touch AC in light armour) Provides WF greatsword, desert wind stance for fire immunity
Cleric 1 provides first level divine spell casting
Paladin 2 Cha to saves
Bone knight 8 (five nations of eberron, p.117) provides immunities. Needs first level divine spell casting, and some skills.
Dragon warrior 2 (Dragon magazine 298 p.105) Wis to AC and Wis to HP needs toughness, iron will, WF greatsword any alignment
Saint LA +2 Wis to AC (BoED p.185) attribute bonuses, acid immunity. Needs 3 exalted feats (sacred vow, VoP, nymph’s kiss)

Feats (with 2 flaws): toughness, iron will, sacred vow, vow of poverty, nymph’s kiss, sacred vow, VoP, air heritage, mage slayer, blind fight, pierce magical protection
class granted feats: WF (greatsword), lightning reflexes, combat reflexes

skills: max concentration, max spell craft, max tumble, whatever else

Immunities:
poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, death from massive damage.
Also immune to all normal energy types like fire, acid, etc; and to normal weapon damage.
Also doesn’t need to breathe, eat, or drink.

Abilities: At will dimension door up to 30ft as move action (blink shirt), true seeing, freedom of movement, mind shielding, regeneration, fast healing 9, evasion, PMP.

Deity: Gwaeron Windstrom (because its the only good deity that likes greatswords that i could find).

Items (340k budget):
3x Tomes/ manuals +4 330k

EDIT: you buy your tomes/manuals at level 17 and plug them in. then at level 18 you suffer an epiphany that makes you want to give away your remaining 10k and take up a life of peniless poverty.

the touch AC is for pesky searing spells. as for VoP, i know its unpopular, but...

...it provides freedom of movement (hard without items), true seeing (very hard without items), stat bonuses, and more. sure its crap compared to items, and sure you normally can't fly with it. but raptoran lets you fly, and items are a liability when wizards start tossing disjunctions around. better off not relying on items at all.

the only thing it has that CAN be dispelled is the totemist-bound blink shirt. it would suck to have this dispelled, but high saves make this less likely and it is only needed to thwart forcecage shenanigans, etc.

i'd appreciate it if no one said 'fighters suck at pvp rar rar'. after four builds, i am well aware of this by now :smallwink:
making the best of a bad deal and playing the underdog is the whole point of this exercise for me.

cheers,
NimbleNZ

Hirax

2011-11-10, 11:19 AM

The mage pulls out a weirdstone (all teleportation and extradimensional travel barred), casts forcecage, and proceeds with burying you. Once you're trapped, a simple zone of cold or similar spell with the piercing cold feat applied (to bypass cold immunity) kills you.

edit: burial is optional by the way, it's just there to neatly prserve you as a trophy. Forcecage+zone of cold+piercing cold+weirdstone are all that are necessary.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 11:24 AM

Hirax

2011-11-10, 11:27 AM

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 11:36 AM

Player's guide to Faerun, page 124. 250,000 GP, the effects reach a 6-mile radius, and do not offer saves. Do most people carry them? With 20th level WBL I always do if I can, those things are freakin' awesome. Nobody can teleport near you or scry on you while it's active.

edit: it also blocks astrally projected people from trying to reach you, so no genesis plane safety.
edit2: it's also worth pointing out that quickened true strike+dimensional anchor are an easy substitute for the weirdstone. It's much easier to optimize touch attacks than touch AC.

does it stop the person holding it from teleporting as well?

dimensional anchor: what kind of ranged touch attacks would the wizard be making? are wizards commonly able to hit a touch AC of 51?
i could boost it towards 60 but i thought that as enough AC already!

edit: also a third of the wizard's WBL on one item is quite a lot, do most people buy that?

Hirax

2011-11-10, 11:43 AM

does it stop the person holding it from teleporting as well?

dimensional anchor: what kind of ranged touch attacks would the wizard be making? are wizards commonly able to hit a touch AC of 51?
i could boost it towards 60 but i thought that as enough AC already!

Yes, it explicitly stops teleportation, etherealness...anything that would be useful from getting out of a forcecage, other than the epic usages of the escape artist skill.

Well, if this is a straight wizard, BAB+true strike is an easy +30, add your dex mod and anything that lets you add int to attack rolls and we're easily on our way.

I also didn't see an immunity to enchantment or compulsion on the list? You're going to have a 50% chance to fail dominate spells. And the alter fortune spell can force someone to get you to reroll your save as an immediate action.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 11:47 AM

Yes, it explicitly stops teleportation, etherealness...anything that would be useful from getting out of a forcecage, other than the epic usages of the escape artist skill.

Well, if this is a straight wizard, BAB+true strike is an easy +30, add your dex mod and anything that lets you add int to attack rolls and we're easily on our way.

I also didn't see an immunity to enchantment or compulsion on the list? You're going to have a 50% chance to fail dominate spells. And the alter fortune spell can force someone to get you to reroll your save as an immediate action.

so touch AC needs to be at what, 70?

enchantment: damn, i missed that. i could jiggle stuff around for it, if there exists a LA +1 template for it or something.
edit: maybe half-fey to replace the saint template...

Hirax

2011-11-10, 11:52 AM

gkathellar

2011-11-10, 11:53 AM

This is a solid effort —I don't think you're going to do much better than this defensively. There are still ways for a wizard to kill you, but they're pretty specific and you'll just have to hope your opponent hasn't considered every possible counter to your build.

Your offense is problematic, though, and I'm really not sure how you're actually going to hurt the wizard you're fighting.

ILM

2011-11-10, 11:53 AM

Hirax

2011-11-10, 11:59 AM

Tokuhara

2011-11-10, 11:59 AM

tyckspoon

2011-11-10, 12:03 PM

Why a 340k budget? ECL20 WBL is 760k. Get whatever item of mind blank you need (3rd Eye Conceal or something like it) and hell, buy a Weirdstone if you want - though by RAW anything over 200k is Epic territory.

Vow of Poverty- the last time you can normally select a feat is 18, so you'd have level 17 WBL to use just before that. Possibly 18 depending on how well you can argue for having accrued that amount of wealth during your time on level 17. (Although if you can jigger in paying for a Psychic Reformation you could go 20 and then Psy Reform your level 18 feat into Vow of Poverty.)

Curmudgeon

2011-11-10, 12:05 PM

As I see it, the Turtle approach is inferior to the Ghost approach if you're facing a high-level spellcaster. Also there's no reason not to use magic items if you can conceal them; a few castings of Nystul's Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) will make those items not register for Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm). There are a lot of 40' radius spheres (Mordenkainen's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)) in a 1000'x1000'x1000' volume, so if you can keep the Wizard from locating you you're in good shape. A really high Hide skill, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkstalker feat, and Move Silently will let you avoid all targeted spells and all but the largest area effect spells ─ unless you get really unlucky, of course. :smallfrown: Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) only affects a 10' radius, for instance. Magic is pretty much punked by a good mundane Hide skill.

If you're in Forgotten Realms you want to pick up the Faerûn-only Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave; that one grants Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight for +1 LA. That's much cheaper than qualifying for a 1-level Shadowdancer dip.

Tokuhara

2011-11-10, 12:06 PM

Question:

Wouldn't Saint Bertold be able to screw mages up?

Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X

Saint Bertold should only be played by a mature player, interested in a lot of roleplaying, with an all Good group interested in a challenge. Your Vows have all sorts of ridiculous pre-conditions, such as taking all helpless or incapacitated living enemies prisoner instead of killing them. So again, do not play this build unless everyone in your party is on board with it. That said, here’s how it works:

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill A mix of Paladin, Binder, Incarnate, and/or any Skill Monkey class might be a good idea.

Knight gives you Test of Mettle.

Apostle of Peace (Book of Exalted Deeds) offers ridiculously fast casting, giving you 9th level spells at ECL 16, albeit from good but somewhat limited list. It also gives you Turn Undead, a no Save Calm Emotions, and Censure Demons. Nothing but spells after 4 levels though, so head into any other PrC that offers full caster progression.

The catch is that you need to take Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Poverty.

Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), makes weapons break against you, and give you other abilities.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isn’t effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, or the many spells at your disposal.

I suggest Paladin 3

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 12:10 PM

Touch AC is irrelevant until you can deal with the weirdstone. Also, I think saint might get you immunity to enchantments anyway? Double check its protective abilities, in particular its protective aura.

i cannae find a description for what protective aura does. but if it turns out that it doesnt help with enchantments i could take half-fey instead.

any other feats or class abilities that grant it?

edit: thanks gkthellar, and yes its a pitiful offense. theres just no room left over for it.

basically, double or x4 move to close the range, flail as hard as you can with the greatsword and hope PMP gets you a hit (if you ever get an opportunity to hit that is).

if you can surive with style for 50 rounds you may be able to win by audiance vote :smallwink:

Hiro Protagonest

2011-11-10, 12:20 PM

Question:

Wouldn't Saint Bertold be able to screw mages up?

I suggest Paladin 3

Apostle of Peace and full caster progression PrC. Does not compute.

Hirax

2011-11-10, 12:21 PM

Question:

Wouldn't Saint Bertold be able to screw mages up?

Er, what about that build is threatening? Test of mettle doesn't prohibit the use of spells such as forcecage, it merely requires that you be the victim of any such area spells. Test of mettle is only useful if you're trying to protect somebody else, not yourself. Also, as pointed out, you're using a full caster.

i cannae find a description for what protective aura does. but if it turns out that it doesnt help with enchantments i could take half-fey instead.

any other feats or class abilities that grant it?

Doesn't saint grant a permanent magic circle against evil, which prevents any sort of mental influence?

Magic is pretty much punked by a good mundane Hide skill.

Debatable depending on how you read mindsight, but also for the challenge in the OP it's not so simple. If the warrior never came out of hiding they'd lose the audience/DM vote. How are they going to be able to maintain their hidden location once they attack?

Tokuhara

2011-11-10, 12:21 PM

Apostle of Peace and full caster progression PrC. Does not compute.

You start as a noncaster and don't attack the wizard directly

Edit: And Besides: Shovel > Forcecage

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 12:26 PM

If you want to talk custom magic items, you could easily just make a weaker weirdstone that costs under 200k. The only spells it requires to make are nondetection and dimensional anchor. I don't see what difference being an epic item makes anyway, there's no prohibition on owning or making epic magic items, and weirdstones are made at CL20, so a 20th level wizard could make one.

i used a custom item of favour of the martyr (or something) in an earlier build and people hrrmphed at the custom item. so i guess ill just bar them from this one as well.

As I see it, the Turtle approach is inferior to the Ghost approach if you're facing a high-level spellcaster. Also there's no reason not to use magic items if you can conceal them; a few castings of Nystul's Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) will make those items not register for Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm). There are a lot of 40' radius spheres (Mordenkainen's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)) in a 1000'x1000'x1000' volume, so if you can keep the Wizard from locating you you're in good shape. A really high Hide skill, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkstalker feat, and Move Silently will let you avoid all targeted spells and all but the largest area effect spells ─ unless you get really unlucky, of course. :smallfrown: Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) only affects a 10' radius, for instance. Magic is pretty much punked by a good mundane Hide skill.

If you're in Forgotten Realms you want to pick up the Faerûn-only Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave; that one grants Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight for +1 LA. That's much cheaper than qualifying for a 1-level Shadowdancer dip.

i've never heard anyone talking about this method before, are you sure its a viable strategy?

how do you attack if you are always hiding?
also, wouldn't the wizard turn into a creature with an even more ridiculous spot modifier and see you?

thanks for the suggestion, if it could be made to work it would be sweet

EDIT: wow, yes! its...really overpowered. the saint template LA should be like +6 or something.

it "blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

as well as giving bonuses to touch AC, saves, and stopping evil summoned creatures from attacking you.

pretty sweet

Curmudgeon

2011-11-10, 12:30 PM

How are they going to be able to maintain their hidden location once they attack?
Just use the skill, if you can still top the opposed Spot check despite the penalty:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Because you Hide while attacking, if you beat the opponent's Spot (with their -5 for "Spotter distracted" in combat, and -1 per 10' of distance) you never become visible. So the Wizard will have no clue where you were when you attacked, even if you were standing 5' away.

Hirax

2011-11-10, 12:33 PM

I'm aware of the modifiers, I'm asking how, specifically, are you attacking the wizard? edit: or at least I thought I was, I didn't make that remotely clear in my previous post.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 12:37 PM

Debatable depending on how you read mindsight, but also for the challenge in the OP it's not so simple. If the warrior never came out of hiding they'd lose the audience/DM vote. How are they going to be able to maintain their hidden location once they attack?

doesn't mind blank (or is it blank thoughts?) foil mindsight?

it's not super hard to get, and if i was going for pure stealth i would definately take it.

however, theres still no point in hiding all match, even if it were possible. the warrior must at least TRY to attack, else yeah...style fail.

Morph Bark

2011-11-10, 12:43 PM

Hirax

2011-11-10, 12:45 PM

doesn't mind blank (or is it blank thoughts?) foil mindsight?

I lean towards yes out of sympathy, because otherwise mindsight would be infallible, but by a RAW reading, imo no. Mind blank also isn't cheap to get for a non-caster. Plus, there's lifesense, which causes all living creatures to radiate light (in your eyes only), thought it would only be available to necropolitans and liches.

Note: Swordsages don't get Wis to AC in light armor until level 2.

If your Monk variant switches Wis to AC for something else, that's a problem. You don't even need the Swordsage Wis to AC specifically since you can't wear light armor due to your Vow. Battledancer works better.

Monk's belt is an easier source of wis to AC.

gkathellar

2011-11-10, 12:47 PM

By RAW, nothing beats Mindsight. As long as something is within range of your Telepathy, you perceive it, end of story.

gkathellar

2011-11-10, 12:49 PM

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 12:50 PM

Note: Swordsages don't get Wis to AC in light armor until level 2.

If your Monk variant switches Wis to AC for something else, that's a problem. You don't even need the Swordsage Wis to AC specifically since you can't wear light armor due to your Vow. Battledancer works better.

didn't notice about swordsages not getting Wis to AC in armour until level 2, thanks.

as for the light armour, its its crafted from bones and fused to my body upon reaching 8 levels of bones knight.

since it has no value, is fused to my body, and can't be removed without killing me i'm ruling that its still armour but is not violating the VoP.

battledance: i thought this was an epic level feat? oh please tell me that its not... :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: theres a battledance and a battledancer...! awesome i didn't even see that, thanks

Morph Bark

2011-11-10, 12:52 PM

Monk's belt is an easier source of wis to AC.

Again, he has Vow of Poverty.

Yes, I realise it is sub-optimal (at least in most cases).

Hirax

2011-11-10, 12:55 PM

RIght, I keep working under the assumption it should be dropped, though I hadn't posted that yet >_>

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 12:56 PM

Again, he has Vow of Poverty.

Yes, I realise it is sub-optimal (at least in most cases).

even if i could use items, there'd not be much point since they're in danger of being dispelled or disjoined

Gavinfoxx

2011-11-10, 12:58 PM

Maybe if you get lots and lots of grafts before getting VoP, if DM moderator allows that? There are several grafting handbooks...

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 01:02 PM

Maybe if you get lots and lots of grafts before getting VoP, if DM moderator allows that? There are several grafting handbooks...

there was a big discussion about that when i tried it in my last attempt.

too many people ruled that they still had value even when attatched, and that they could (and should) be cut off...!

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 01:13 PM

Runescarred Berserker, dude. You really, really, really want AMF.

Or just be a Dark Strongheart Halfling Bard/Mystic Ranger with Darkstalker. Use Hunter's Mercy for lulz, subharmonics for silence while singing, use a Bow of Song, and so on. Use a Wyrdstone to stop him from running away and snipe him. Why not see if we can add in some levels of Soulbow? Lucky Humanbane Arrows against the caster. Should be fun, either way. You just don't have enough killing power by the looks of it, nor enough ways to counter the ways he ignores your resistances.

EDIT: Oh, ad VoP is BAD. REALLY BAD.

Hirax

2011-11-10, 01:15 PM

AMFs don't stop forcecages. You won't get the jump, so that's kind of a big deal.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-10, 01:22 PM

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 01:37 PM

if i use class granted spells then i'm not really doing warrior vs wizard, im doing gish vs wizard.

gishes are definately more optimal, but they aren't the point of this exercise :smallfrown:Eh, okay. Doesn't matter. You just need decent bow damage. Still decently easy to do.

And RSB aren't casters. They cannot cast.

Hirax

2011-11-10, 01:41 PM

And RSB aren't casters. They cannot cast.

What? That's like sayings Psions aren't casters either, because they use powers not spells. Runescars are also specifically mentioned as devices for storing spells the the berserker knows.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-10, 01:48 PM

By RAW, nothing beats Mindsight. As long as something is within range of your Telepathy, you perceive it, end of story.
An Antimagic Field effect will beat any Supernatural ability, and if you're going for otherwise nonmagical equipment a single Antimagic Torc (Underdark, page 73) will produce that for 110 minutes.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.Telepathy is a Supernatural effect, so suppressing that means Mindsight fails to detect you.

It's not a bad idea to attack the Wizard with mundane weapons, because most of their protection will be against magical attacks. And being untargetable (no line of sight if you're always hiding), plus Antimagic Field to suppress any magic cast into your area, will make you very hard for the Wizard to effect. It's just Vow of Poverty to arrive at a non-magical attack strategy that I object to. Giving up all magic, and all expensive gear, is just too extreme.

If you're dead set on Vow of Poverty, with the box being 1732' across opposite corners, staying outside a 100' radius view isn't too difficult. Heck, you can still pepper the Wizard with crossbow bolts with no range penalty. I kind of like the Large creature with Powerful Build approach, because Huge heavy crossbow bolts ignore Wind Wall. Spend a few of those Fighter feats on ranged combat goodies:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating heavy crossbow)
Rapid Shot
Far Shot (makes range increment 180')
Crossbow Sniper

Make the Wizard a pincushion, and Hide while attacking so they have no clue where the shots are coming from. Since D&D has no facing, and ammunition is destroyed when it hits, they can't even back-trace the bolt shafts in their body to narrow it down. You'll be able to knock down all their Mirror Images, and overcome their Stoneskin, pretty quickly. You can buy a lot of ready-to-fire repeating crossbows on a level 20 budget.

The story hasn't even begun. :smallbiggrin:

Optimator

2011-11-10, 01:49 PM

Well, the scars are more like special scrolls. Would scrolls be allowed?

Hirax

2011-11-10, 01:57 PM

The story hasn't even begun. :smallbiggrin:

How are you acting first? Foresight and moment of prescience are a given at 20th level. All the wizard needs to do if threatened is cast invisibility and jaunt away and suddenly they're just as undetectable. Spot only lets you see invisible creatures that are "near you." At which point it's a detection war.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 01:59 PM

How are you acting first? Foresight and moment of prescience are a given at 20th level. All the wizard needs to do if threatened is cast invisibility and jaunt away and suddenly they're just as undetectable. Spot only lets you see invisible creatures that are "near you." At which point it's a detection war.6 mile range on Weirdstone? Does that stop teleporting out?

Hirax

2011-11-10, 02:01 PM

Teleporting isn't necessary, mundane movement does the trick. And I meant jaunt elsewhere in the arena, not out of it entirely.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 02:04 PM

Teleporting isn't necessary, mundane movement does the trick. And I meant jaunt elsewhere in the arena, not out of it entirely.You're gonna move faster than someone who is looking at 50+ speed? And has ranged attacks?

You know, you might as well take Wild Cohort for a Warbred Fleshraker at high level. I'd think that could tear a wizard apart in an AMF.

Y'know? I'm gonna go work on this character.

Hirax

2011-11-10, 02:06 PM

Please do. Nothing you've mentioned so far is threatening.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 02:11 PM

Please do. Nothing you've mentioned so far is threatening.Uh, Barbarian in AMF isn't? Guy with bow that you can't find who is butchering your 90 HP isn't? Sure, we'll see...

Wait, what book are Wyrdstones in?

Hirax

2011-11-10, 02:12 PM

Player's Guide to Faerun, 124. And yes, those are non-issues. Stop playing Schrodinger and post your build and we'll see how it stacks up ;)

Tokuhara

2011-11-10, 02:17 PM

Wild Unseelie Fey Raptoran
Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Stormtalon 10/Sword of Righteousness 3

x2 Heavy Greathorn Minotaur Greathammers

gkathellar

2011-11-10, 02:24 PM

Telepathy is a Supernatural effect, so suppressing that means Mindsight fails to detect you.

"A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy."

That says nothing about whether you can use your Telepathy at the time or not, nor does the rest of the feat's text — if it's inside your Telepathy's maximum range and it's not mindless, you can detect it. And since General feats are Ex, it works in an AMF.

Is that stupid? Yes, absolutely. But it works by RAW.

EDIT:
Wild Unseelie Fey Raptoran
Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Stormtalon 10/Sword of Righteousness 3

x2 Heavy Greathorn Minotaur Greathammers

Huhwhuh? How does that have any chance against a caster with an unlimited book list?

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 02:37 PM

Player's Guide to Faerun, 124. And yes, those are non-issues. Stop playing Schrodinger and post your build and we'll see how it stacks up ;)I'm working on it. I got a lot of books to sift through, and I'm a perfectionist when it comes to this.

Hirax

2011-11-10, 02:51 PM

Start a new thread once you finish it up, probably more appropriate since it's effectively a new thought exercise. In particular I'm skeptical it's feasible to win initiative and track the wizard down after they cast invisibility and fly. Move speed doesn't matter if you don't know where to move to, and fly gives them 60' movement anyway, so you'll need more than that if that's an angle you want to take. Then detection war, which is made incredibly difficult by a weirdstone.

edit: actually, discern location isn't listed as having the scrying subtype, so it theoretically would work in a weirdstone's range. Its 10 minute casting is less than the duration of invisibility. Celerity, time stop, forcecage immediately upon completion, if it does.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-10, 07:11 PM

That says nothing about whether you can use your Telepathy at the time or not, nor does the rest of the feat's text — if it's inside your Telepathy's maximum range and it's not mindless, you can detect it.
Only those areas where your Supernatural Telepathy works are within your range; antimagic areas are not.

Randomguy

2011-11-10, 11:37 PM

Uh, Barbarian in AMF isn't? Guy with bow that you can't find who is butchering your 90 HP isn't? Sure, we'll see...

What wizard in their right mind would take that butchering rather than casting prismatic sphere? Or Ironguard? Or control winds via an orb of storms? After the first attack misses because of less effective but lower level defenses (Mirror image, blur, blink) the wizard realises he has no idea whose attacking him, casts celerity and breaks out the big defensive guns.

Is this against a wizard 20, or is the wizard aloud to prestige into incantrix or initiate of the sevenfold veil or master specialist? Incantrix would probably be best, since they can persist a few high level spells each day, and can persist more spells normally.

Fighting a barbarian in an antimagic field is trivial: There's about a hundred ways to deal with it: Fly away and cast control winds (orb of storms) and he won't be able to fly to you even if he has wings, much less fire a weapon. Or persist a buff with Incantrix. Or use fog cloud to find out where he is (if he's hiding), and surrounding the big hole in the cloud with walls of Iron or stone after casting time stop so he can't move while you surround him. There are probably other ways, but I'm too lazy to think of them at the moment.

Little Brother

2011-11-11, 12:21 AM

What wizard in their right mind would take that butchering rather than casting prismatic sphere? Or Ironguard? Or control winds via an orb of storms? After the first attack misses because of less effective but lower level defenses (Mirror image, blur, blink) the wizard realises he has no idea whose attacking him, casts celerity and breaks out the big defensive guns.

Is this against a wizard 20, or is the wizard aloud to prestige into incantrix or initiate of the sevenfold veil or master specialist? Incantrix would probably be best, since they can persist a few high level spells each day, and can persist more spells normally.

Fighting a barbarian in an antimagic field is trivial: There's about a hundred ways to deal with it: Fly away and cast control winds (orb of storms) and he won't be able to fly to you even if he has wings, much less fire a weapon. Or persist a buff with Incantrix. Or use fog cloud to find out where he is (if he's hiding), and surrounding the big hole in the cloud with walls of Iron or stone after casting time stop so he can't move while you surround him. There are probably other ways, but I'm too lazy to think of them at the moment.For the archer, there's another thread for this.

For the Barbarian: You're assuming you actually have a round after the barbarian does. If the barbarian gets a single round, the wizard is dead. Your buffs don't exist in an AMF. Not saying it's a guarantee, nor even very likely, but it's the best chance a melee guy in the first place.

Also, trip/improved grab/any number of other was to lock the wizard in the AMF. Best shot someone in melee is gonna have.

Hirax

2011-11-11, 12:27 AM

Ziegander

2011-11-11, 12:45 AM

For the Barbarian: You're assuming you actually have a round after the barbarian does. If the barbarian gets a single round, the wizard is dead. Your buffs don't exist in an AMF. Not saying it's a guarantee, nor even very likely, but it's the best chance a melee guy in the first place.

Also, trip/improved grab/any number of other was to lock the wizard in the AMF. Best shot someone in melee is gonna have.

How is the Barbarian getting within 10ft of the Wizard anyway? Let alone close enough to smack him with a sword or trip or grapple him? That's just never going to happen. :smallconfused:

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 01:28 AM

For the archer, there's another thread for this.

For the Barbarian: You're assuming you actually have a round after the barbarian does. If the barbarian gets a single round, the wizard is dead. Your buffs don't exist in an AMF. Not saying it's a guarantee, nor even very likely, but it's the best chance a melee guy in the first place.

Also, trip/improved grab/any number of other was to lock the wizard in the AMF. Best shot someone in melee is gonna have.

but tin hats. hat expands, blocks line of effect, stops AMF. wizard teleports away next round (or on the spot if he has immeadiate actions).

uberchargers rely wholly on one tactic and arent hard to counter. what is needed is a build that can survive the initial onslaught, and the next and the next.

i can boost the touch AC past 60, and i can boost the saves. what is really vital is a way to escape forcecages with using teleportation. theres' a pick in the MIC that dispels force effects, you just chop your way out. a few of those would be handy, but magic items can be dispelled or disjoined...

so does anyone know any feat/class/racial abilities that can break through a forcecage (without teleporting) ?

kulosle

2011-11-11, 01:30 AM

Hirax

2011-11-11, 01:36 AM

so does anyone know any feat/class/racial abilities that can break through a forcecage (without teleporting) ?

A DC 80 escape artist check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist) is probably sufficient. But then you're giving the wizard 10 rounds (the amount of time the check takes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/escapeArtist.htm)) to have their way with you. Rods of cancellation are your only bet, and even those are a huge gamble, because if the wizard has the uncanny forethought feat (aka, the feat that obsoletes sorcerers), or even just more forcecages prepared, you're doomed.

so i'm going to have to suggest the wendigo again. it can fly in any kind of weather freakishly fast, but i don't remember what type of ability the flying is. and can go ethereal. also there is the possibility of wisdom damage him to death. although that doesn't fit the theme.

While one of the coolest monsters in 3.X imo, I don't feel like those are appropriate for PCs.

what is your first turn move of choice and how would it fair against this build.

I already wrecked the build in the OP, but I have plenty more tricks up my sleeve that I haven't posted in this thread (but have in others). I'll wait on specific builds to post them. I used to be of the mind that people that said warriors could always beat wizards were just playing Schrodinger, but I've since learned that simply isn't true.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 01:56 AM

so i'm going to have to suggest the wendigo again. it can fly in any kind of weather freakishly fast, but i don't remember what type of ability the flying is. and can go ethereal. also there is the possibility of wisdom damage him to death. although that doesn't fit the theme.

the wendigo does fly FAST which is awesome. but its ability to go ethereal doesn't help against forcecages which extend into the ethereal plane. also doing wisdom damage is unlikely since the wizard is unlikely to fail will saves.

its a very good question as to whether the wizard is allow to prestige class. are they? also: is the wizard to presumed to not have his persisted spells cast yet? if he's allowed to have them then you should be allowed to walk out of the gate hiding. if not then you are pretty screwed on initiative.

i agree that it is impossible to defeat a wizard in initiative. that is a difficult thing to get around. but lets talk about what a wizard would logically do on that turn. i pretty sure that the majority of first turn wizard tricks this build has a defense for. so for all the wizard players that are reading this, what is your first turn move of choice and how would it fair against this build. i know i love me a maximized empowered greater orb of force, but that't not going to drop this character like it would others.

for starters let's just do a stright up wizard 20, things are already complicated enough! if we can do that then we'll try other variations.

my guess for the wizard's first turn facing a warrior would probably be...time stop, gate solar/dragons. most wizard's would probably not be concerned at facing a warrior and would underestimate him.i imagine a lot of spells would be wasted trying to dominate/death effect/ability drain/deal the wrong kind of damage.

eventually maximised searing orbs will be thrown around. that's what the high touch AC is for. it needs to go higher though, i will boost it to 60 touch AC at least. that HAS to be high enough....surely?

that anti-teleport stone thing is real pain. ways to overcome it, or survive despite it (preferably without using magic), would be very much appreciated.

EDIT:"I already wrecked the build in the OP, but I have plenty more tricks up my sleeve that I haven't posted in this thread (but have in others). I'll wait on specific builds to post them. I used to be of the mind that people that said warriors could always beat wizards were just playing Schrodinger, but I've since learned that simply isn't true."

you have kinda wrecked it. but only if the wizard is carrying your epicly expensive anti-teleport stone thing. no one mentioned it on any of my previous pvp threads, so i feel like its not a common item. dimension lock would also work, but i can boost the touch AC higher (i just thought 50 was enough already!).

i'm sure YOU would use it. but that's because you love your forcecage-dimension lock-freeze combos :smalltongue:

Little Brother

2011-11-11, 01:59 AM

How is the Barbarian getting within 10ft of the Wizard anyway? Let alone close enough to smack him with a sword or trip or grapple him? That's just never going to happen. :smallconfused:
By winning initiative. Not that hard to optimize.

But you won't win initiative.Why not? It is difficult, admittedly, but there are ways to bypass their tricks, are there not?

but tin hats. hat expands, blocks line of effect, stops AMF. wizard teleports away next round (or on the spot if he has immeadiate actions)You honestly expect the wizard to be on the ground? Especially if their wings are not visible(Easy disguise check)?

So just be large or use reach, or something. Since he's flying, you can be under him or something. In a worse case situation, is there a magic item that can stab through walls?

uberchargers rely wholly on one tactic and arent hard to counter. what is needed is a build that can survive the initial onslaught, and the next and the next.It doesn't have to be an ubercharger. You only need to do a little over 100 damage, it's easy to do 200 without trying.Why not use a Tempo Bloodspike if all else fails?

i can boost the touch AC past 60, and i can boost the saves. what is really vital is a way to escape forcecages with using teleportation. theres' a pick in the MIC that dispels force effects, you just chop your way out. a few of those would be handy, but magic items can be dispelled or disjoined...I can boost my attack bonus past 60, easy. AMF laughs at Force Cages.

so does anyone know any feat/class/racial abilities that can break through a forcecage (without teleporting) ?AMF? the mage/occult/etc slayer's disjunction?

Hirax

2011-11-11, 02:02 AM

eventually maximised searing orbs will be thrown around. that's what the high touch AC is for. it needs to go higher though, i will boost it to 60 touch AC at least. that HAS to be high enough....surely?

Wall of magma (Sandstorm) + searing spell, or anything environmental + searing spell will get right past your touch AC, because you only need to be standing near the wall to take damage, and if you're forcecaged you're doomed. Zone of glacial cold + piercing cold also does the trick.

edit: specifically for initiative, moment of prescience and nerveskitter are going to be a minimum of +25, and a hummingbird familiar (Dragon 323) is another +4 (+8 if they're an elf, see Races of the Wild elven wizard sub levels). A level 20 wizard is also likely to have invested in dex boosters, and other initiative boosters. The wizard is also less magic item dependant, and can afford to splurge more on magic items for things like this. You would need to put a Pyrrhic amount of resources into initiative to even have a shot at winning it.

And then if you do somehow win, you need to get around contingent celerity.

AMFs DO NOT AFFECT FORCECAGES

Little Brother

2011-11-11, 02:14 AM

Wall of magma (Sandstorm) + searing spell, or anything environmental + searing spell will get right past your touch AC, because you only need to be standing near the wall to take damage, and if you're forcecaged you're doomed. Zone of glacial cold + piercing cold also does the trick.

edit: specifically for initiative, moment of prescience and nerveskitter are going to be a minimum of +25, and a hummingbird familiar (Dragon 323) is another +4 (+8 if they're an elf, see Races of the Wild elven wizard sub levels). A level 20 wizard is also likely to have invested in dex boosters, and other initiative boosters. The wizard is also less magic item dependant, and can afford to splurge more on magic items for things like this. You would need to put a Pyrrhic amount of resources into initiative to even have a shot at winning it.

And then if you do somehow win, you need to get around contingent celerity.

AMFs DO NOT AFFECT FORCECAGESThey don't? Why the hell not?

And, either way, dispel it, disjoin it, Anklets of Translocation are cheap, either way.

And considering how you can easily get 3 stats to initiative,among other things, not that bad. It requires resources, but so does anything else when trying to kill a wizard.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 02:41 AM

*snip*
You honestly expect the wizard to be on the ground? Especially if their wings are not visible(Easy disguise check)?

So just be large or use reach, or something. Since he's flying, you can be under him or something. In a worse case situation, is there a magic item that can stab through walls?
It doesn't have to be an ubercharger. You only need to do a little over 100 damage, it's easy to do 200 without trying.Why not use a Tempo Bloodspike if all else fails?

I can boost my attack bonus past 60, easy. AMF laughs at Force Cages.

AMF? the mage/occult/etc slayer's disjunction?

you don't understand, he only has to block your line of effect for an instant. even if he's flying. you won't be able to go around the cone because the wizard will immeadiate-action abrupt jaunt/whatever away from you.

i tried the disjunctions last time, but they are opposed by will saves which the wizard isnt going to be failing very often.

also im pretty sure that AMF doesnt do anything to forcecages.

EDIT: "Wall of magma (Sandstorm) + searing spell, or anything environmental + searing spell will get right past your touch AC, because you only need to be standing near the wall to take damage, and if you're forcecaged you're doomed. Zone of glacial cold + piercing cold also does the trick."

well yes, sure. that's why we are alooking for ways around the forcecage-during-teleport blackout combo.

and again, i dont think most people will be equipping the anti-teleport stone thing. in 3 threads no one has ever mentioned it before.
also, it will be stopping the wizard from teleporting as well, which is nice.

EDIT: hirax please remember i didn't build this warrior to vs your particular wizard 20. it for generic wizard 20, so its aimed at overcoming generic wizard 20 problems.

this can be fancy combos, but for most poeple i think it means gated monsters and ability drain spells, death spells, etc...

Hirax

2011-11-11, 03:40 AM

They don't? Why the hell not?

And, either way, dispel it, disjoin it, Anklets of Translocation are cheap, either way.

And considering how you can easily get 3 stats to initiative,among other things, not that bad. It requires resources, but so does anything else when trying to kill a wizard.

Dispelling greatly favors the defender and is not feasible unless the person attempting to dispel something is a full caster. No teleportation, etherealness, etc thanks to weirdstones, been there done that. Rods of cancellation are going to eat into WBL too much for the warrior to hope for them to be a viable option. If you're going to allow the warrior to spam multiple rods of cancellation, it's only fair to allow the wizard to spam scrolls, which is a loss for the warrior due to scrolls being much cheaper. AMFs are suicide for non-casters anyway, it opens them up to innumerable environmental effects that the wizard can use that are not affected by AMFs. The classic one is simply dropping things via levitate or similar spells, so a 20th level caster could drop 40 cubic feet of ouch on a warrior. First cast time stop and wall the warrior in so that there's no escape, except an opening in the top (legal to do in a time stop). Column of ice if the victim is flying, to create a platform under them, and then wall of stone around them. The item would be held flush with the opening at the top so there was no escape, and dropped right after time stop expires. Not just dropped though, the wizard is pushing down on it, shapechanged into colossal dragon. Or anything colossal, really, you're not going to be able to lift the plug when it's got a 125 ton or more colossal creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) on the other side of it. And as mentioned, putting that many resources into initiative is Pyrrhic, especially without a way around contingent celerity.

you don't understand, he only has to block your line of effect for an instant. even if he's flying. you won't be able to go around the cone because the wizard will immeadiate-action abrupt jaunt/whatever away from you.

i tried the disjunctions last time, but they are opposed by will saves which the wizard isnt going to be failing very often.

also im pretty sure that AMF doesnt do anything to forcecages.

EDIT: "Wall of magma (Sandstorm) + searing spell, or anything environmental + searing spell will get right past your touch AC, because you only need to be standing near the wall to take damage, and if you're forcecaged you're doomed. Zone of glacial cold + piercing cold also does the trick."

well yes, sure. that's why we are alooking for ways around the forcecage-during-teleport blackout combo.

and again, i dont think most people will be equipping the anti-teleport stone thing. in 3 threads no one has ever mentioned it before.
also, it will be stopping the wizard from teleporting as well, which is nice.

EDIT: hirax please remember i didn't build this warrior to vs your particular wizard 20. it for generic wizard 20, so its aimed at overcoming generic wizard 20 problems.

this can be fancy combos, but for most poeple i think it means gated monsters and ability drain spells, death spells, etc...

The reason so few people mention weirdstones is simply due to their obscurity. If more people knew about them they'd use them, those things are awesome. Either way, dimensional anchor and forcecage are well known and used PHB spells, so the weirdstone isn't necessary. Further, you're still susceptible to the trick with dropping items I just mentioned above, regardless of whether you're in an AMF, which also utilizes nothing obscure, and is very commonly known. There's simply no way you're going to beat a wizard at battlefield control; uncanny forethought, the best high level wizard feat in existence imo, means all tricks are going to be available to a 20th level wizard. They're going to have 13 spell slots at minimum that can be used for any spell that's in their spellbook. With 20th WBL, that basically means any spell at all on their list. This gives them virtually unlimited options, and more than enough resources to destroy anything that isn't a full caster.

However, not being able to do the impossible doesn't take away from your build at all. You have succeeded in whittling it down to only the most clever tricks that few people outside of TO forums such as this one are going to know; it would win, or at the very least not die, at many real tables (assuming everything with it is legal, I confess to have not carefully scrutinized it), because most people in meatspace gloss over searing spell and clever battlefield control tricks. It's why blasting is so closely associated with spellcasters, people aren't imaginative with how they use them.

Tokuhara

2011-11-11, 10:30 AM

Well, a Tripper build who has Gargantuan reach would be able to screw a Wizard up.

Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre (Size Huge, 3 LA)
Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/War Hulk 10

Use a Huge Spiked Chain, take Unnatural Reach (abberant feat) and Mage Slayer, as well as the standard AoO Tripper Feats. Basically, if it stands remotely near you and does/doesn't do anything, you can hit it, with multiple AoOs

Morph Bark

2011-11-11, 11:50 AM

AMFs DO NOT AFFECT FORCECAGES

To be precise, they are described as similar to a Wall of Force, which is stated by Antimagic Field to not be affected by it. By strict RAW, I'd say that doesn't make it function like a Wall of Force with such regards.

Heck, the closed version isn't even mentioned to be similar to a Wall of Force at all!

vitkiraven

2011-11-11, 12:09 PM

To be precise, they are described as similar to a Wall of Force, which is stated by Antimagic Field to not be affected by it. By strict RAW, I'd say that doesn't make it function like a Wall of Force with such regards.

Heck, the closed version isn't even mentioned to be similar to a Wall of Force at all!

Does this really kill the RAW wizards pwn warriors forcecage argument? Can it be, did you find the lost Shangri-La of warrior-dom?:smallamused:

tyckspoon

2011-11-11, 12:49 PM

Does this really kill the RAW wizards pwn warriors forcecage argument? Can it be, did you find the lost Shangri-La of warrior-dom?:smallamused:

No. Because unless you're a caster too, AMF is a limited and expensive resource that limits yourself more than it usefully does anything for you. So whoever arbitrates your fight rules that AMF can knock down a Forcecage: did you spend your Standard (ie, your major useful action) for that round activating AMF? Did whatever gave you AMF cost more to use than the material component of Forcecage? Did you just tip the fact that you have access to AMF to the Wizard, letting him know that he needs to adapt his tactics accordingly? Very probably yes to all three, which makes that set of actions a net gain for the Wizard.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-11, 12:50 PM

You have a small bit of WBL available yet. I suggest expending it on joining the complete champion organization for a church of magic. It's sufficiently generic that one should exist in any setting. It's also cheap.

Now, max out the ranks. Sure, you're not a caster, so this is a bit of a pain, but you can technically "defeat foes using only magic" with a wand. You get ranks every time you do this. Enjoy.

Now, in addition to some other minor benefits, you get a 1/day no button. Counter any spell without having an action, needing to spellcraft it, have a spell readied, or any of that jazz. It's just "no".

vitkiraven

2011-11-11, 12:59 PM

No. Because unless you're a caster too, AMF is a limited and expensive resource that limits yourself more than it usefully does anything for you. So whoever arbitrates your fight rules that AMF can knock down a Forcecage: did you spend your Standard (ie, your major useful action) for that round activating AMF? Did whatever gave you AMF cost more to use than the material component of Forcecage? Did you just tip the fact that you have access to AMF to the Wizard, letting him know that he needs to adapt his tactics accordingly? Very probably yes to all three, which makes that set of actions a net gain for the Wizard.

I thought an Antimagic Torc was Standard Equipment for the warriors that were going up against a Wizard? Or even that spiffy dust?

dextercorvia

2011-11-11, 01:11 PM

We need to decide whether the Wizard wants to have a Wierdstone, or use the Tinfoil hat+Teleport trick.

tyckspoon

2011-11-11, 01:15 PM

I thought an Antimagic Torc was Standard Equipment for the warriors that were going up against a Wizard? Or even that spiffy dust?

Antimagic Torc: 25,000 GP, Command Word activate (so Standard action), 1/day, requires disabling every other item and spell effect via AMF to make use of. Remember those items and spell effects are probably what you're counting on to be able to get to and threaten the Wizard at all.

Forcecage: 1,500 GP, Standard action, usable as many times as prepped and potentially Quickened if appropriate resources are used for it (7th level spell, so probably from a Greater metamagic rod.)

So.. yeah. The warrior is expending *much* greater resources than the Wizard. That's true of almost all warrior-accessible countermeasures, which tends to be why the Wizard wins these things; he can much more cheaply have alternate means of attack than the warrior can have ways to defend against them.

Ziegander

2011-11-11, 01:27 PM

By winning initiative. Not that hard to optimize.

No. No, that's just not going to work. Have you heard of spells? They laugh at your pathetic attempts to optimize your initiative. Contingency ruins your day. And if it didn't, well, Celerity does too. A simple Alarm spell makes sure that if the Barbarian somehow gets to within 20ft of the Wizard without the Wizard knowing, now he does now, with the silent mental alarm function, and the Wizard then automatically wins initiative. A Barbarian can't do a damn thing about it. He doesn't get to go first, he doesn't get to slap him with a sword, he doesn't get to put the Wizard in an AMF. He doesn't get to pass Go or collect $200.

vitkiraven

2011-11-11, 01:44 PM

Tyndmyr

2011-11-11, 01:47 PM

Okay, then with all that in mind, how does one get the Trope/ Archetype of a Barbarian defeating a powerful wizard? There are frequent stories of this, and it doesn't seem to be anywhere near the fantasy roleplaying that WOTC (not going to disparage them in kenning just yet today) allows with their base system.

*shrug* Not every wizard has to be like unto a mini-god. Nor does the terms of their fight need to be anything approaching fair.

Edit: Also, Vecna blooded should get around the whole contingency thing by negating foresight, no?

vitkiraven

2011-11-11, 01:52 PM

*shrug* Not every wizard has to be like unto a mini-god. Nor does the terms of their fight need to be anything approaching fair.

In most of those stories, the Wizard is unto a mini-god, and it's usually one on one (except when the foul kneeler to outside entities summons other creatures, of course). I mean it is just apparent to me that the torrid conjurers of the ocean's neighbor seemed to have a fan-boy crush on those that can't use their own muscle and abilities to do honest adventuring. (kind of why I actually like FR, at least they gave some thought with Wild Magic and Dead Magic, to nerf the hideously overpowered spellcasting types)

I guess the only way to do it right is with Homebrew then. Maybe I'll shuttle this discussion to another Thread, so as not to derail this one any more.

EDIT: And the way Wiz supporters claim, Vecna-blooded doesn't work nearly as well as it should, IMHO.

Morph Bark

2011-11-11, 02:06 PM

No. No, that's just not going to work. Have you heard of spells? They laugh at your pathetic attempts to optimize your initiative. Contingency ruins your day. And if it didn't, well, Celerity does too. A simple Alarm spell makes sure that if the Barbarian somehow gets to within 20ft of the Wizard without the Wizard knowing, now he does now, with the silent mental alarm function, and the Wizard then automatically wins initiative. A Barbarian can't do a damn thing about it. He doesn't get to go first, he doesn't get to slap him with a sword, he doesn't get to put the Wizard in an AMF. He doesn't get to pass Go or collect $200.

Can you even take actions if you are caught surprised? Or lose initiative (prior to having your turn)?

tyckspoon

2011-11-11, 02:18 PM

Can you even take actions if you are caught surprised? Or lose initiative (prior to having your turn)?

Normally not; being Flatfooted prevents taking action until your initiative. Which is why Foresight is such a big deal when discussing end-game level fights.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 03:41 PM

*snip*

Edit: Also, Vecna blooded should get around the whole contingency thing by negating foresight, no?

no, sadly. vecna blooded was one of the very first things i tried. i made threads here and at enworld asking that very question. didn't get a huge response but most of those that commented said "no".

EDIT: the antimagic torc is a great idea. even if it doesnt overcome forcecages its still awesome for stopping most other stuff.

load up on class/racial/grafted/etc abilities and it won't matter if you can't cast spells or use magic items. if you dont have to worry about boosting you AC and maxing your saves then you have lots of levels free to devote to getting mindsight, freedom of movement, etc

25k is peanuts to a level 20 warrior. i would take 3 torcs in case the others were somehow sundered.
also, you can't say that the torcs are expensive AND it deprives you of magic items. magic items are what explode your WBL, if you use anti-magic then you dont need any items and therefore dont need the cash.
its one or the other but not both.

EDIT:

The reason so few people mention weirdstones is simply due to their obscurity. If more people knew about them they'd use them, those things are awesome. Either way, dimensional anchor and forcecage are well known and used PHB spells, so the weirdstone isn't necessary. Further, you're still susceptible to the trick with dropping items I just mentioned above, regardless of whether you're in an AMF, which also utilizes nothing obscure, and is very commonly known. There's simply no way you're going to beat a wizard at battlefield control; uncanny forethought, the best high level wizard feat in existence imo, means all tricks are going to be available to a 20th level wizard. They're going to have 13 spell slots at minimum that can be used for any spell that's in their spellbook. With 20th WBL, that basically means any spell at all on their list. This gives them virtually unlimited options, and more than enough resources to destroy anything that isn't a full caster.

However, not being able to do the impossible doesn't take away from your build at all. You have succeeded in whittling it down to only the most clever tricks that few people outside of TO forums such as this one are going to know; it would win, or at the very least not die, at many real tables (assuming everything with it is legal, I confess to have not carefully scrutinized it), because most people in meatspace gloss over searing spell and clever battlefield control tricks. It's why blasting is so closely associated with spellcasters, people aren't imaginative with how they use them.

the weirdstone destroys the build totally. but as you just say, they are obscure. if they were more common and better known then this build would be different.
however, they are still uncommon and little known, so they arent a problem until they become more widespread.

yes wizard can drop things on you and do battlefield control stuff. but he could ALREADY do that stuff before the AMF, so reducing many of his options is still a win.

dimensional lock can be overcome with even more touch AC :)

thanks, i'll settle for being able to beat unoptimized wizards for now. but iu think we can still do better
:belkar:

Doug Lampert

2011-11-11, 04:08 PM

25k is peanuts to a level 20 warrior. i would take 3 torcs in case the others were somehow sundered.
also, you can't say that the torcs are expensive AND it deprives you of magic items. magic items are what explode your WBL, if you use anti-magic then you dont need any items and therefore dont need the cash.
its one or the other but not both.

If you are PLANNING to AMF then you are planning to lose. Plain and simple.

The wizard flies and orbs you to death, or he flies and telekinisses you to death, or he flies and battlefield controls you to death, or heck, just to laugh at your pathetic efforts he flies and pulls out his crossbow and plinks you to death by shooting till he rolls a 20 enough times (in an AMF you probably can't heal).

AMF only works as a method AFTER you have somehow closed the range.

tyckspoon

2011-11-11, 04:09 PM

25k is peanuts to a level 20 warrior. i would take 3 torcs in case the others were somehow sundered.
also, you can't say that the torcs are expensive AND it deprives you of magic items. magic items are what explode your WBL, if you use anti-magic then you dont need any items and therefore dont need the cash.
its one or the other but not both.

I'll agree with you if you can find me a non-magical way to reliably spot, approach, and threaten a Wizard, all while under AMF (keeping in mind that See Invisible and True Sight are not, AFAIK, available as a non Spell-like or Supernatural ability, the best versions of Hide In Plain Sight are also Supernatural, plain old Walls of Force and Prismatic Wall/Sphere are not removed by AMF, and Teleportation abilities are generally magically sourced.. and the Shadow Hand maneuver teleports, although technically Extraordinary through probable oversight of forgetting to tag them Su, still require line of sight and effect to the destination, which makes them trivial for a Wizard to interrupt.)

Randomguy

2011-11-11, 05:04 PM

Now, in addition to some other minor benefits, you get a 1/day no button. Counter any spell without having an action, needing to spellcraft it, have a spell readied, or any of that jazz. It's just "no".

Good thing wizards have more than one spell per day.

As to the starting with what buffs active question, this battle is supposed to be against a fairly competent wizard, so the wizard should already have his all day buffs active. This means some or all of the following:

Phantom steed or Overland Flight (caster's preference; speed vs. reliability vs. what level spell slot they're willing to use.)
Moment of persience
Mind Blank
Death Throes if they want to be cruel and know they're going to be in an arena.
Possibly elemental body (Is that worth the slot? A fire elemental body is better than a fire immunity spell any day (when you're on your own) and an air elemental body gives flight so you don't need a different spell for that, as well as air mastery (meh) and the standard immuities (pretty good.),
Heart of X, most likely heart of water for freedom of movement when necessary.
Possibly elemental immunity but probably not.

Any suggestions?

When it comes to actually killing the guy, may I suggest Vortex of teeth (possibly multiple castings) combined with a battlefield control spell? Only against large or larger sized opponents and if evocation isn't banned. And in the second case, maybe even then, since there's a transmuter ACF that lets you pick a small amount of spells from banned schools.

What schools the wizard specialise in and ban? I would say specialise transmuter for the ACF, (also, there are more awesome transmutation spells at higher levels than conjuration spells) ban enchantment and either necromancy or evocation.

It's wrong to say that the wizard will waste a few turns trying to find something the enemy isn't immune to: High level wizards have intelligence in the mid 20's, so one should turn to the old standby (Use the force/use spells that no one's immune to, that don't offer saves and that bypass SR) after realising he's not dealing with the average grunt.

Unless there's a minimum of one round of preparation before the arena match starts, it's unreasonable to assume that the wizard has foresight active because of it's duration: even extended via metamagic rod, it only lasts about 6 hours, so not worth the spell slot to cast every day in the morning. (But certainly worth it most other times.)

Oh, and a possible countermeasure against hide in plain sight is retributive spell + glitterdust, for a substantial penalty to hide checks.

vitkiraven

2011-11-11, 05:52 PM

On the subject of absurdity, could one, with enough know. Arcana, just IHS the weave, or source of Magic™ as a whole, and make the wizard back into a high level commoner?:smalltongue:

illyrus

2011-11-11, 06:20 PM

A few poles connected together (to make it long enough to counter both versions) that are wider than half an inch should keep forcecage from taking effect because it cannot materialize in the first place (you'd look really weird doing it though). Of course the wizard player can counter that with something else.

I think the thought experiment breaks down at a certain point because of the way its laid out. You present a challenge (a warrior in this case) and then allow a player to plan around it with a class that specializes in doing terrible things to physics when no one is looking. Playing "what if" with a character class that has 10,000 magical shortcuts is not going to work out well.

I think in an actual game a player playing a warrior can beat a player playing a wizard if the warrior player has some "gotcha" move that wizard player doesn't see coming and is unable to develop a counter for in the time allotted for his turn. I think the player of the warrior probably needs to have at least an equal understanding on the magical rules, spell lists, and magical tactics as his target if not greater to accomplish this though.

vitkiraven

2011-11-11, 06:33 PM

Dragonsoul

2011-11-11, 06:42 PM

JoeYounger

2011-11-11, 06:48 PM

265k (a lot I know) will get you a custom magic item with +100 competence bonus to escape artist that only functions for a barbarian of your alignment and is activated by using the escape artist skill. It works 3/day, and its only a dc 120 escape artist to make it thru a wall of force.

that will save you the problem of needing teleport, and will let you out of 3 force cages. I doubt a wizard is prepping 4.

Or its only 108k for the same item 1/day.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-11, 06:56 PM

edit: specifically for initiative, moment of prescience and nerveskitter are going to be a minimum of +25 ...

And then if you do somehow win, you need to get around contingent celerity.
I don't see why this is necessary. You don't need better initiative; you just need a way for that not to matter. Hide in Plain Sight (that lets you Hide wherever there are shadows nearby) will let you start out hidden, and remain hidden, because (excepting the weird Sniping option) Hide takes no action. If there are shadows, you're already hidden.

So the Wizard wins initiative, and you're somewhere else in this 1000' cube. They can't detect you unless they've got Mindsight and they're close enough. (That's not likely, since the volume in which Mindsight works is just 0.4% of the volume of the arena.) Now the Wizard gets to cast some spells. All targeted spells fail because there's no line of sight to the target. Area effect spells will work only if the Wizard correctly guesses which area and you can't use evasion to avoid the effect of those spells.

If the Wizard has contingent Celerity that's ideal for you, the warrior. If the contingent condition is being attacked, then you fire your crossbow from anywhere within the arena and the Celerity is triggered. Because D&D has neither facing nor hit locations, the Wizard can't even tell which approximate direction the bolt came from (because the only detail is that the bolt hits them, not any particular part of their body or the part of their body which was facing some direction); there's no information unless the Wizard makes a successful Spot check to locate the attacker. The Wizard gets an action in which they'll cast some more spells (again, probably with no impact on the warrior), then they're dazed. You get to continue your full ranged attack and take another full attack while the Wizard is dazed, and the Wizard becomes a pincushion after their Mirror Image and Stoneskin spells get used up.

Now, this would become a stalemate if you had Vow of Poverty and no magic; the Wizard would use Greater Invisibility and you'd both be wasting your time with no target. But without Vow of Poverty you'll have permanent See Invisibility (and Nystul's Magic Aura so that magic can't be detected). See Invisibility works against invisible (but not merely hidden) creatures anywhere within line of sight, so it's better than the limited radius of Mindsight. You'll be able to target the Wizard; the Wizard won't be able to target you.

Hirax

2011-11-11, 07:04 PM

candycorn

2011-11-11, 07:13 PM

Just use the skill, if you can still top the opposed Spot check despite the penalty: Because you Hide while attacking, if you beat the opponent's Spot (with their -5 for "Spotter distracted" in combat, and -1 per 10' of distance) you never become visible. So the Wizard will have no clue where you were when you attacked, even if you were standing 5' away.

"Spotter distracted" is not synonymous with "in combat".

A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant)
It applies if the spotter is not concentrating on being observant.
I would wager anyone making active spot checks would automatically qualify as concentrating on being observant.

I would also wager that anyone hit by an invisible assailant would, barring direct action to the contrary, be looking for whoever hit them. That would also qualify.

"spotter distracted" applies to situations where something else actively has the character's focus, and the spot is an afterthought. I could see an argument for "while casting/concentrating on a spell or skill effect". I could see "while engaged in combat against a known foe, when trying to spot something that is not the known foe".

So, If Wizard A is fighting an archer, and gets blindsided by Mr. Stealthy, then yes, that could be distraction.

If Wizard A is in a featureless arena, and Mr. Stealthy is the only other enemy there? No, there are no distractions.

Hirax

2011-11-11, 07:19 PM

Spot is a cross class skill for wizards, they're probably not going to beat the opposed hide check. Normally I'd turn to discern location, but the 50 round limit in the OP kills that due to the 10 minute casting time.

Little Brother

2011-11-11, 07:25 PM

I don't see why you're making it so easy for the warrior to hit the wizard. Prismatic sphere is all it takes to stop all ranged attacks. If the wizard can't find the warrior it results in a stalemate.Is this hypothetical wizard flying or on the ground? Also, the wizard cannot see out of the sphere, how's he gonna detect anything?

Curmudgeon

2011-11-11, 07:28 PM

Is this hypothetical wizard flying or on the ground? Also, the wizard cannot see out of the sphere, how's he gonna detect anything?
It's a stalemate, but the warrior wins on points for being able to move around and act freely while the Wizard cowers, safely but impotently, in the Prismatic Sphere.

Aegis013

2011-11-11, 07:32 PM

Can't the Wizard cast clairvoyance from inside his prismatic sphere? He could attempt to detect you that way. So he could still look for you while inside his sphere, if he has any low-mid level divination spells ready.

candycorn

2011-11-11, 07:45 PM

If the Wizard has contingent Celerity that's ideal for you, the warrior. If the contingent condition is being attacked, then you fire your crossbow from anywhere within the arena and the Celerity is triggered. Because D&D has neither facing nor hit locations, the Wizard can't even tell which approximate direction the bolt came from (because the only detail is that the bolt hits them, not any particular part of their body or the part of their body which was facing some direction); there's no information unless the Wizard makes a successful Spot check to locate the attacker. The Wizard gets an action in which they'll cast some more spells (again, probably with no impact on the warrior), then they're dazed. You get to continue your full ranged attack and take another full attack while the Wizard is dazed, and the Wizard becomes a pincushion after their Mirror Image and Stoneskin spells get used up.Superior Invisibility?

Now, this would become a stalemate if you had Vow of Poverty and no magic; the Wizard would use Greater Invisibility and you'd both be wasting your time with no target. But without Vow of Poverty you'll have permanent See Invisibility (and Nystul's Magic Aura so that magic can't be detected). See Invisibility works against invisible (but not merely hidden) creatures anywhere within line of sight, so it's better than the limited radius of Mindsight. You'll be able to target the Wizard; the Wizard won't be able to target you.Superior Invisibility trumps See Invisibility.

From there, Fly and a double move (assuming a 60 foot telepathy range), will cover a 120 foot diameter cylinder with a length of 120 feet, bounded on either side with a half-sphere with radius 60 feet. That is significantly more than you advertised earlier, and, if round 2 is Shapechange into a creature with 100 fly speed? then lengthen that to 200 feet for the cylinder's height (400 if going down).

Add on run speed? 800 feet descending.
Phantom Steed with Superior invisibility on it? 960 feet, with a horizontal run. No, it's not guaranteed, still occupying a small amount of the arena. However, the Fighter, without true seeing, has no way at all to penetrate Superior Invisibility.
Heck, even a simple Obscuring Mist will seriously mess with hiding methods.
Enter the area and get within 5 feet, or you don't see the caster with anything approaching the accuracy needed to reliably hit it.

None of these spells are even obscure, or from commonly banned schools. Illusion, Conjuration, Transmutation. Arguably the three best schools, and all drawn from either the SRD or the Spell Compendium.

Coidzor

2011-11-11, 07:48 PM

It's a stalemate, but the warrior wins on points for being able to move around and act freely while the Wizard cowers, safely but impotently, in the Prismatic Sphere.

Oh please. That's about as meaningful as the entire arena scenario which admits from the beginning that a solo warrior isn't capable of keeping a wizard engaged.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-11, 07:58 PM

Superior Invisibility trumps See Invisibility.
OK, that's a fair point. So the warrior can use a Psicrown of the Discerning Watcher, for Psionic True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm). The warrior's mundane Hide skill is still good, and 120' radius for Psionic True Seeing is better than the 100' telepathy radius for Mindsight: 72.8% better actually, in volume covered.

Little Brother

2011-11-11, 08:04 PM

It's a stalemate, but the warrior wins on points for being able to move around and act freely while the Wizard cowers, safely but impotently, in the Prismatic Sphere.Answer the question. Is the Wizard in the air or on the ground? This is very important. I would like to point out a barbarian can attack underneath(and so through) the hat in the trick.

candycorn

2011-11-11, 08:36 PM

OK, that's a fair point. So the warrior can use a Psicrown of the Discerning Watcher, for Psionic True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm). The warrior's mundane Hide skill is still good, and 120' radius for Psionic True Seeing is better than the 100' telepathy radius for Mindsight: 72.8% better actually, in volume covered.

And even true seeing gets chunked to 5 feet vs. Control Weather (Fog) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm), or Obscuring Mist.

What's the volume increase of 100 foot radius vs. 5 feet?

As for cast time? Widened Obscuring mist alone will provide 20 minutes of coverage. If the enemy enters within range of mindsight, stop casting and bring up the forcecage. If not, there's an awfully lot of area to cover with even one of those. (40 foot radius, 40 foot high)

That's 1376 squares. Assuming a Rapid-shot, 5 shot attack, where you only roll natural 20's, and ignore miss chance from concealment? Firing 5 shots a round for 10 minutes (100 rounds) is only 500 rounds, which yields about 36% of the area covered. In the event of that hit, assuming a 30 damage arrow hit, can a wizard reliably hit a DC 40 concentration check, at level 20? Yup. 23 ranks +10 (enhancement) + 5 (con mod) = +38, and that's not really trying.

That's not even getting into any contingent spells, or even a forcecage/resilient sphere around the caster, which would make this a lot less likely.

No. If a caster wants to hide, and that caster has mindsight, then the caster is going to be able to, and better. From there, Control Weather limits vision to 5 feet, and the wizard's superior nonvisual senses take the advantage.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 08:50 PM

If you are PLANNING to AMF then you are planning to lose. Plain and simple.

The wizard flies and orbs you to death, or he flies and telekinisses you to death, or he flies and battlefield controls you to death, or heck, just to laugh at your pathetic efforts he flies and pulls out his crossbow and plinks you to death by shooting till he rolls a 20 enough times (in an AMF you probably can't heal).

AMF only works as a method AFTER you have somehow closed the range.

sorry i dont understand. i would fire it as soon as it was my turn...what did you mean?

candycorn

2011-11-11, 08:55 PM

sorry i dont understand. i would fire it as soon as it was my turn...what did you mean?

He means, if you cast AMF from 500 feet away, you're never going to get close enough to suppress a wizard's spellcasting. And if you can't do that, there are many spells that can still affect you, even in an AMF.

If you cast an AMF from 10 feet away, the wizard, on its turn, can 5 foot step and cast.

If you cast from 5 feet away, the wizard, on its turn, can tumble (barring stances/abilities that prevent it) away and cast.

The ideal is getting it to go off, and then grappling. But without a standard action to initiate grapple, you're in a fix.

The ideal is:
1) Move adjacent
2) Activate Belt of battle, extra standard action.
3) use extra standard action to activate an AMF.
4) use remaining standard action to initiate a grapple.

But that requires you get adjacent in a single move action.

dextercorvia

2011-11-11, 09:11 PM

Control Weather

Casting Time: 10 minutes

Gavinfoxx

2011-11-11, 09:15 PM

You need to read this. Antimagic doesn't work as well as you think it does...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0

It is just an emanating field that happens to suppress some magic. That's it...

Curmudgeon

2011-11-11, 09:30 PM

And even true seeing gets chunked to 5 feet vs. Control Weather (Fog) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm), or Obscuring Mist.
No, that actually has no effect at all. Obscuring Mist gets ignored because the warrior has Pierce Magical Concealment, and as dextercorvia already pointed out, the Wizard can't cast Control Weather before the time is up.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 09:50 PM

I'll agree with you if you can find me a non-magical way to reliably spot, approach, and threaten a Wizard, all while under AMF (keeping in mind that See Invisible and True Sight are not, AFAIK, available as a non Spell-like or Supernatural ability, the best versions of Hide In Plain Sight are also Supernatural, plain old Walls of Force and Prismatic Wall/Sphere are not removed by AMF, and Teleportation abilities are generally magically sourced.. and the Shadow Hand maneuver teleports, although technically Extraordinary through probable oversight of forgetting to tag them Su, still require line of sight and effect to the destination, which makes them trivial for a Wizard to interrupt.)

you can find class/racial/feat granted abilities for some of this.

also, you could not bother and let the wizard waste high level sells against you...
when you want to attack you can take it off and all your Su abilities come back.
if things get rough, put it back on again. you don't need to be able to see him unless you're attacking him.

EDIT:"I think the thought experiment breaks down at a certain point because of the way its laid out. You present a challenge (a warrior in this case) and then allow a player to plan around it with a class that specializes in doing terrible things to physics when no one is looking. Playing "what if" with a character class that has 10,000 magical shortcuts is not going to work out well."

i'm not sure what you mean. any battle against a wizard could involve any of dozens of tactics/shortcuts etc.
so its good that people jump on them and point them out because otherwise i wouldn't know about them.
that said, its also nice when people give advice based on wizards would do, rather than optimized wizards played by people that have read their opponents build before the fight.

EDIT:"He means, if you cast AMF from 500 feet away, you're never going to get close enough to suppress a wizard's spellcasting. And if you can't do that, there are many spells that can still affect you, even in an AMF."

heh well you're never going to be able to do that, unless you kill the wizard in the same round, which is very unlikely.

my point was that before using AMF you faced battlefield control stuff and you faced direct stuff (blasting,mind control, energy drain, more blasting, etc).

after using AMF you only have to worry about the battlefield control stuff. so its still win.

EDIT:"Oh please. That's about as meaningful as the entire arena scenario which admits from the beginning that a solo warrior isn't capable of keeping a wizard engaged."

yes, i did put that limitation on the players. but really, is it so draconian? there's heaps of fluff in the splatbooks for arena battles. it could be a duel of honor, it could be gladiators fighting for cash or freedom, it could be two princes fighting for the succession...

astral projection, for example:
if you went to a boxing match where where people was actually a body double for someone too scared to fight himself...what would happen to him if people found out?
i imagine he'd be at best booed out of the ring or at worst beaten up.

so it is with this scenario. are there limitations? yes. is it meaningless? no.

treat it like you would treat any other competitive sport.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-11, 10:43 PM

I'll agree with you if you can find me a non-magical way to reliably spot, approach, and threaten a Wizard, all while under AMF (keeping in mind that See Invisible and True Sight are not, AFAIK, available as a non Spell-like or Supernatural ability, the best versions of Hide In Plain Sight are also Supernatural, plain old Walls of Force and Prismatic Wall/Sphere are not removed by AMF, and Teleportation abilities are generally magically sourced.. and the Shadow Hand maneuver teleports, although technically Extraordinary through probable oversight of forgetting to tag them Su, still require line of sight and effect to the destination, which makes them trivial for a Wizard to interrupt.)
Specifically for Hide in Plain Sight, the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) will modify Extraordinary Camouflage and HiPS to work in urban settings like an arena; that covers Ranger, Scout, and (urbanized) Wilderness Rogue. Alternatively, the Eye of Lolth HiPS (Drow of the Underdark) operates like Assassin HiPS but is Extraordinary.

Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) "allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities"; while there's a list of examples, there are no exclusions ─ not even for high-level spells like Superior Invisibility. So then it's just a good Spot skill to locate the Wizard. If you see a Prismatic Sphere (opaque to the Wizard inside it) you can take advantage of those non-Supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers and pop right through the Prismatic Sphere (which no longer offers total concealment because of Pierce Magical Concealment). (With teleport you're neither trying to project something through the Sphere nor trying to pass through it; your movement is in the Astral Plane instead.) You can't attack the Wizard when you're inside the Sphere without triggering the spell effects, but you could attack the Wizard's square with an alchemical bomb there and teleport out again. Something you're immune to, can avoid with evasion, or has a delayed release is what you want. A lingering effect would be excellent, since Prismatic Sphere is immovable. :smallbiggrin:

Now, going up close to get inside the Prismatic Sphere is chancy; the Wizard with Mindsight won't be able to see you coming telepathically if you've got an Antimagic Torc, but they could well have a contingency/readied action to trigger something whenever there's a change inside the Prismatic Sphere. Just because they're spellcasters doesn't mean they have to react with a spell, so Antimagic Field isn't guaranteed protection.

Hirax

2011-11-11, 10:59 PM

It's a stalemate, but the warrior wins on points for being able to move around and act freely while the Wizard cowers, safely but impotently, in the Prismatic Sphere.

No, then I cast vision and you lose. Unless you're immune, in which case stalemate. I'd cast Mage's Mansion to send out scouts to try, though.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-11, 11:08 PM

Specifically for Hide in Plain Sight, the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) will modify Extraordinary Camouflage and HiPS to work in urban settings like an arena; that covers Ranger, Scout, and (urbanized) Wilderness Rogue. Alternatively, the Eye of Lolth HiPS (Drow of the Underdark) operates like Assassin HiPS but is Extraordinary.

Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) "allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities"; while there's a list of examples, there are no exclusions ─ not even for high-level spells like Superior Invisibility. So then it's just a good Spot skill to locate the Wizard. If you see a Prismatic Sphere (opaque to the Wizard inside it) you can take advantage of those non-Supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers and pop right through the Prismatic Sphere (which no longer offers total concealment because of Pierce Magical Concealment). (With teleport you're neither trying to project something through the Sphere nor trying to pass through it; your movement is in the Astral Plane instead.) You can't attack the Wizard when you're inside the Sphere without triggering the spell effects, but you could attack the Wizard's square with an alchemical bomb there and teleport out again. Something you're immune to, can avoid with evasion, or has a delayed release is what you want. A lingering effect would be excellent, since Prismatic Sphere is immovable. :smallbiggrin:

Now, going up close to get inside the Prismatic Sphere is chancy; the Wizard with Mindsight won't be able to see you coming telepathically if you've got an Antimagic Torc, but they could well have a contingency/readied action to trigger something whenever there's a change inside the Prismatic Sphere. Just because they're spellcasters doesn't mean they have to react with a spell, so Antimagic Field isn't guaranteed protection.

curmudgeon thanks for all the effort you have put into this, its really great stuff. i wish more people would put as much thought into finding solutions for the warrior, instead of just saying 'lololol wizard will pwns u'

this was meant to be my last attempt, but if i ever try again i will base the build around the ideas you've described here. even if it doesnt work, i'll get really good at understanding the concealment rules!

cheers :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon

2011-11-11, 11:18 PM

No, then I cast vision and you lose.
How is Vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm) going to work if you've never seen the opponent (the warrior is always hidden, after all) and aren't provided any details in advance (arena rules)? You don't even have rumors about the specific individual ─ only the information that there will be an opponent. So the spell will just fail.

Hirax

2011-11-11, 11:21 PM

If the person or object is at hand or if you are in the place in question, you receive a vision about it by succeeding on a caster level check (1d20 +1 per caster level; maximum +25) against DC 20.

Not by my reading? Though see the second part of my post, I accidentally hit reply instead of preview, and had to hastily edit it, in case you missed it.

NNescio

2011-11-11, 11:29 PM

Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) "allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities"; while there's a list of examples, there are no exclusions ─ not even for high-level spells like Superior Invisibility. So then it's just a good Spot skill to locate the Wizard. If you see a Prismatic Sphere (opaque to the Wizard inside it) you can take advantage of those non-Supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers and pop right through the Prismatic Sphere (which no longer offers total concealment because of Pierce Magical Concealment). (With teleport you're neither trying to project something through the Sphere nor trying to pass through it; your movement is in the Astral Plane instead.) You can't attack the Wizard when you're inside the Sphere without triggering the spell effects, but you could attack the Wizard's square with an alchemical bomb there and teleport out again. Something you're immune to, can avoid with evasion, or has a delayed release is what you want. A lingering effect would be excellent, since Prismatic Sphere is immovable. :smallbiggrin

Unlike most forms of teleportation, the Shadow Hand teleports require Line of Sight and Line of Effect. Prismatic Sphere blocks both.

...You must have line of sight and line of effect to your destination. ...

This maneuver functions as the shadow jaunt maneuver...

Hiro Protagonest

2011-11-11, 11:31 PM

..Why does the wizard get to come into the battle with all his buffs up? Surely round 1 should be both contestants standing across from one another on an equal footing? I mean the warrior doesn't get to start with his sword stuck half-way through the wizards chest right? Why should the wizard, who already has an advantage-by being a wizard, get another advantage?

Because Overland Flight lasts the entire waking day? What buffs are we assuming that don't last all day or are triggered but can be triggered at any point during the day?

Randomguy

2011-11-12, 12:12 AM

The reason the wizard starts off with his long duration buffs is the same reason the wizard doesn't fill every spell slot with floating disk: He's not an idiot. Any competent wizard wouldn't even leave the rope trick he sleeps in without casting his all day buffs.

Pierce magical concealement means there's no miss chance when you attack the invisible wizard. It doesn't mean you can determine what square he's in. Pierce magical concealement is not the same as true seeing.

A wizard in a prismatic sphere is not immobile: Unless the wizard isn't allowed to have feats, he can pick up Mobile Spellcasting. At lvl 20, you can succeed on the required concentration check to move and cast for a ninth level spell with a roll of anything above a 3, assuming maxed out concentration (which is a given for wizards) and a con mod of at least +3. For level 6 and lower spells, he succeeds automatically. And even if the wizard didn't feel like leaving his sphere, he could have his familiar (or even an unseen servant) carry a ring gate while he has the other one, and he could cast through that.
And that's all assuming the wizard resorts to a ninth level spell to stop arrows. I mean, seriously? Casting ironguard works even better in this situation, since it makes it so that unless the warrior has a weapon that's not made out of metal, the wizard's immune. And then there's control winds from a magic item so the warrior would have difficulty even moving.

A magic item that lets the warrior use true seeing isn't that useful (even before the wizard gets around to disjoining it): A good wizard is so well protected he doesn't need to hide. Superior invisibility isn't that great a buff anyways, since it stops the caster from using spells with somatic components, so he'd have to have prepared a lot of silenced spells. Besides, any 9th level spell that can be countered by a 6th level spell isn't worth it.

How high exactly could the stealthy character get his hide check? I'm not good at hide optimization, so tell me if I missed anything: 23 from skill ranks, +10 (assuming a +2 dex race and maxed out dex) from ability mod, +5 item, +8 size (Assuming small with a potion/item of reduce person, and you probably won't be that small) +2 masterwork tool. That's +50 to hide. Sniping means that the bonus drops to +30 you first attack.
Greater prying eyes at level 20 have a +20 bonus to spot checks, and mind blank doesn't protect against them. With all 20+1d4 eyes looking, at one of them will pinpoint you after your first attack, and one casting of glitterdust later, you're visible.

And all that is assuming the wizard doesn't use celerity: Hiding after a ranged attack is a move action, so casting celerity after you're hit means you can see the attacker, since he hasn't had the chance to use a move action to hide again yet. Then glitterdust. Or timestop, followed by glitterdust, followed by killing him. (For example, force cage and then vortex of teeth several times for a piranha death trap.)

Is there a way to hide from a wizard that can bypass the above countermeasures? If not, stop suggesting using hide to win.

And now, just so people will stop suggesting archers, a list of ways to block ranged attacks:

Prismatic Sphere
Ironguard (except against slings and other nonmetalic ammunition)
Wind wall (for standard arrows and bolts)
Control winds via orb of storms (to stop seige weapons and anything less powerful)
Otiluk's telekinetic sphere
Otiluk's reselient sphere

NimbleNZ

2011-11-12, 12:27 AM

this is probably wrong, but its worth a shot.

i just read that freedomm of movement would allow you to slip through the bars of a barred forcecage...

is that true?

EDIT: actually scratch that it doesn't, never mind

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 12:32 AM

Pierce magical concealement means there's no miss chance when you attack the invisible wizard. It doesn't mean you can determine what square he's in. Pierce magical concealement is not the same as true seeing.

Clarity of Vision skill trick or DC 40-50 Spot-check does work here tho (or DC 60 if the Wizard is inanimate and still).

Hirax

2011-11-12, 12:32 AM

this is probably wrong, but its worth a shot.

i just read that freedomm of movement would allow you to slip through the bars of a barred forcecage...

is that true?

I think that's an enormous stretch that wouldn't fly at any real table.

..Why does the wizard get to come into the battle with all his buffs up? Surely round 1 should be both contestants standing across from one another on an equal footing? I mean the warrior doesn't get to start with his sword stuck half-way through the wizards chest right? Why should the wizard, who already has an advantage-by being a wizard, get another advantage?

Something else that I don't think others have mentioned: the warrior is more dependent on this than the wizard. If the warrior doesn't have magic aura cast on all his gear in advance he can't hide. Not hiding hasn't been proven to be anything less than suicidal.

Clarity of Vision skill trick or DC 40-50 Spot-check does work here tho (or DC 60 if the Wizard is inanimate and still).

Only if the wizard is within 30' if I believe.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-12, 12:34 AM

Unlike most forms of teleportation, the Shadow Hand teleports require Line of Sight and Line of Effect. Prismatic Sphere blocks both.
Normally you would be half right. However, Prismatic Sphere is opaque (and thus offers total concealment, with a 50% miss chance) only because of magic. Pierce Magical Concealment lets you disregard the miss chance granted by spells, so Prismatic Sphere does not have the 50% miss chance from total concealment. If it can't have the miss chance from being opaque, it can't be opaque to someone with the Pierce Magical Concealment feat. Thus the spell does not block line of sight to the warrior.

Prismatic Sphere does not create a physical barrier and thus doesn't provide cover; it blocks only specified things. (The fact that it stops or destroys a great many types of things is not the same as blocking everything.) For instance, it doesn't block water or other liquids, which are not D&D objects. You can build a moat around a Prismatic Sphere, fill it with acid, and flood the Sphere. The acid will cause damage, but because there's no attack roll involved the Prismatic Sphere does nothing. Prismatic Sphere does not block line of effect.

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 12:41 AM

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 12:44 AM

Only if the wizard is within 30' if I believe.

Hum. Clarity has the 30' limit but I don't think DC40 Spot Check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot) does. At least I couldn't find the limitation anywhere; I've read it somewhere but I've got this feeling it's a 3.0ism.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-12, 12:50 AM

Hum. Clarity has the 30' limit but I don't think DC40 Spot Check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot) does.
According to the table, it's usually only DC 30 to "Notice presence of unmoving, living invisible creature". DC 40 is for "Notice presence of unmoving, unliving invisible creature".

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 12:53 AM

According to the table, it's usually only DC 30 to "Notice presence of unmoving, living invisible creature". DC 40 is for "Notice presence of unmoving, unliving invisible creature".

I was listing the pinpoint DCs which are 20 points higher, respectively.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-12, 12:56 AM

Ah, OK. I was assuming the Wizard was being still (with a readied action). So probably DC 50 total for pinpointing.

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 12:59 AM

Ah, OK. I was assuming the Wizard was being still (with a readied action). So probably DC 50 total for pinpointing.

Hard but doable without magic items (probably too expensive unless we max Wis/Int+Keen Intellect or use Item Familiar, or invest class levels in it). Trivially easy with them, of course.

Hirax

2011-11-12, 01:13 AM

c) rather than actually building a Wizard character the Wizard camp simply begs the question, "how do you beat X combination of spells?"

It would probably prove much more useful for the discussion if both camps produced complete builds (including spent WBL).

Any build with uncanny forethought trivializes the concept of a wizard not being able to respond with any sorc/wizard spell. That's a baseline that it so far hasn't really been necessary to move beyond.

Hum. Clarity has the 30' limit but I don't think DC40 Spot Check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot) does. At least I couldn't find the limitation anywhere; I've read it somewhere but I've got this feeling it's a 3.0ism.

I think the range limit (if there was one) got replaced with the +1 to DC per 10'

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 01:21 AM

I think the range limit (if there was one) got replaced with the +1 to DC per 10'

Pretty sure that was always there. But 3.0 had a ton of 30' limitations (Weapon Specialization had one too, for instance) that got removed so it wouldn't surprise me if this was there, and gone too.

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 01:36 AM

Any build with uncanny forethought trivializes the concept of a wizard not being able to respond with any sorc/wizard spell.

How so?

That's a baseline that it so far hasn't really been necessary to move beyond.

Try telling that to camp warrior. Providing an actual Wizard build with a spell list and class levels, etc, will go a much longer way toward convincing team warrior that they can't win.

Hirax

2011-11-12, 01:45 AM

How so?

The wizard can leave a number equal to their int modifer of spell slots open to spontaneously cast any spell they know, with known spells being what's in their spellbook (see known spells in PHB glossary). If the wizard rolled/bought 16 int to start with, that means at level 20 their int is going to be at least 30. So, at least 10 spells that can be anything at all, and if you haven't won with that, the rest probably aren't going to make a difference.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 01:55 AM

No, that actually has no effect at all. Obscuring Mist gets ignored because the warrior has Pierce Magical Concealment, and as dextercorvia already pointed out, the Wizard can't cast Control Weather before the time is up.

You can ignore concealment miss chance with PMC. You don't ignore the inability to see through actual fog that is actually there.

That actual fog that actually obscures your actual vision does not go away, and PMC does not provide you with the super ability to see through it.

Yes, if you target the right square, you can ignore the Miss Chance granted by Obscuring Mist when you attack a creature within it. However, it wouldn't help you a darn bit when it comes to figuring out which square to attack.

And if you have over 1300 choices, and only one is correct, I would say that is not such a small thing to overlook, hm?

In other words, you can see 5 feet in Obscuring Mist. Within 5 feet, creatures have concealment, and you suffer a 20% miss chance (PMC overcomes the miss chance. However, the creature still has concealment for othe purposes, such as hiding). At distances above 5 feet, creatures have total concealment, and you suffer a 50% miss chance (PMC again overcomes the miss chance. However, other penalties for total concealment still apply).

Unless you can show me some text in PMC that indicates it does more than negate the miss chance. I'm not seeing it.

In short, PMC does not automatically let you see through illusions/conjurations. You just ignore the miss chance if you shoot an arrow through that fake wall.

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 02:02 AM

So, at least 10 spells that can be anything at all, and if you haven't won with that, the rest probably aren't going to make a difference.

10 spells from your spellbook does not equal 10 spells that can be anything at all. And casting non-spell mastery spells costs a full-round action.

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 02:09 AM

10 spells from your spellbook does not equal 10 spells that can be anything at all. And casting non-spell mastery spells costs a full-round action.

1) Dreadful.
2) Arcane Spellsurge.
3) Whatever.

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 02:11 AM

1) Dreadful.
2) Arcane Spellsurge.
3) Whatever.

...

Wut?

Hirax

2011-11-12, 02:12 AM

10 spells from your spellbook does not equal 10 spells that can be anything at all. And casting non-spell mastery spells costs a full-round action.

With 20th WBL, and 60 spells known from level advancement and either specializing or being a domain wizard, that means you're going to have the kitchen sink in your spell book. And nobody has been dumpster diving for spells in this thread anyway. Arcane spellsurge is a Dragon Magic spell that turns full round casting time spells into standard actions spells, and standard action spells into swift action spells.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 02:16 AM

Casting Time: 10 minutes

Yes, it does have that.

Put yourself in a Widened Obscuring Mist. Cast Superior Invisibility.

Now you can't be spotted at ranges above 5 feet (as even Pierce Magical Concealment doesn't let you see through the fog; only ignore the miss chances when you attack), and you can't be heard at all (as Superior Invisibility makes you undetectable by hearing).

If an enemy closes within 100 feet of you, you detect them (due to mindsight). In such a case, you stop casting, and promptly forcecage the fighter.

If the enemy doesn't, then they have over 1300 squares to choose from when attacking. If they get that right, great. PMC will negate the miss chance, and the fighter may hit. And if you do less than 30 damage, the spell will probably still continue just fine, and there will be no indication that you even hit.

This is what you have to deal with. If the caster has stoneskin? Even harder to force a flubbed concentration check.

100 rounds to cast, and 1300 squares to go through. So, to hit every square, you need 13 attacks per round, all of which hit. And that's 1 hit, in 100 rounds.

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 02:23 AM

With 20th WBL, and 60 spells known from level advancement and either specializing or being a domain wizard, that means you're going to have the kitchen sink in your spell book.

Yes, it's a lot, but until you sit down and write a real list you can't actually give a truthful account of what spells you already have running, what spells you cast in round 1, how many spell slots you have left, etc...

Arcane spellsurge is a Dragon Magic spell that turns full round casting time spells into standard actions spells, and standard action spells into swift action spells.

I know what Arcane Spellsurge does, I just found his reply incomprehensible. It has almost nothing to do with what we've been talking about.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-12, 02:27 AM

All these arena matches ever seem to boil down to is

a) The OP always puts limitations on the spellcaster to give the warrior a chance.

b) The warrior camp supposes a few characters that are tailor-built mageslayers with every possible advantage and defense against Wizards.

c) rather than actually building a Wizard character the Wizard camp simply begs the question, "how do you beat X combination of spells?"

It would probably prove much more useful for the discussion if both camps produced complete builds (including spent WBL).

a) true. but i only limited everyone to staying in the arena or lose. fair enough, surely? in a boxing match, if one boxer runs away; then doesnt he lose?
also i put a limit of 1 contingency, but i can waive that if people are going to complain.

b) of course, wizards are the best pvp class. if you do a pvp tournament and decide to play a warrior then obviously you plan to kill wizards.

c) yes, it would be nice if people didnt do that. but still, it reveals weaknesses and teaches me about combos/abilities/spells that i wouldn't otherwise know about.

EDIT: if you think "camp warrior" PVPers are under the impression that warriors are better at pvp then you are wrong.

wizards are the best at pvp.

warriors are the underdogs and are more of a challenge, which is why i like building them. but don't worry, we KNOW wizards are better.

Eldariel

2011-11-12, 02:37 AM

I know what Arcane Spellsurge does, I just found his reply incomprehensible. It has almost nothing to do with what we've been talking about.

I was pointing out that the whole Full-Round Action part is wholly irrelevant and wondering why it was even brought up.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 02:38 AM

a) true. but i only limited everyone to staying in the arena or lose. fair enough, surely? in a boxing match, if one boxer runs away; then doesnt he lose?
also i put a limit of 1 contingency, but i can waive that if people are going to complain.

b) of course, wizards are the best pvp class. if you do a pvp tournament and decide to play a warrior then obviously you plan to kill wizards.

c) yes, it would be nice if people didnt do that. but still, it reveals weaknesses and teaches me about combos/abilities/spells that i wouldn't otherwise know about.

EDIT: if you think "camp warrior" pvps are under the impression that warriors are better at pvp then you are wrong.

wizards are the best at pvp.

warriors are the underdogs and are more of a challenge, which is why i like building them. but don't worry, we KNOW wizards are better.

IRT (C). I'm not referring to X combination. I'm referring to a sequence.

Assuming the wizard wins initiative (a very safe assumption), the first spell provides a broad area of relative undetectability. (Widened Obscuring Mist)

The second spell (Superior Invisibility) augments that, negating most other forms of detection (and is available typically round 1, through belt of battle).

Mindsight allows for relatively unhindered Caster detection, and is always on.

Spell 3 is Control Weather, which takes 10 minutes.

This makes a broad area hospitable to the caster, and inhospitable to the fighter. It does so with relative safety to the caster. It then proceeds to follow up my making the entire arena hospitable to the caster and inhospitable to the fighter.

It's not a spell sequence, it's a round by round outline.

Hirax

2011-11-12, 02:50 AM

Yes, it's a lot, but until you sit down and write a real list you can't actually give a truthful account of what spells you already have running, what spells you cast in round 1, how many spell slots you have left, etc...

I don't agree at all. I think most people here have only had the wizard running foresight, moment of prescience, and contingent celerity, which are factory defaults. Things just get too cruel if you add more active buffs, and as I said, if the wizard can't win with 10 (or more) anything slots from uncanny forethought, they're probably not going to win anyway. Tracking the remaining spell slots isn't going to be productive. Round 1 spells can't be said without an actual enemy though, the reaction is going to be totally different depending on what you know about the enemy at the start of your first action.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-12, 02:56 AM

hirax, this is for you

I started a thread asking people how high their attack bonus would be if they entered a wizard into a pvp tournament.

most people managed to fail at answering the question. however, emperor tippy replied saying he would have about +20 for his attack.

i wanted a more balanced reply (ie from many different sources), tippy's pretty good at optimization from what i hear, so:

roll of 20 + 20 (everything else) = 40

so a touch AC of 51 isnt looking so bad. and it can go to 60 with some changes.

EDIT heres the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12205477#post12205477

Hirax

2011-11-12, 03:03 AM

Nobody even mentioned true strike in that thread, I wouldn't trust it as a barometer.

Little Brother

2011-11-12, 03:06 AM

NimbleNZ

2011-11-12, 03:06 AM

Nobody even mentioned true strike in that thread, I wouldn't trust it as a barometer.

emperor tippy!

isnt he famous or something

EDIT: and true strike puts you at 60. which the next build (if i make one) will have.

Hirax

2011-11-12, 03:11 AM

Your problem is uncanny forethought effectively makes Schrodinger's wizard a reality.

NimbleNZ

2011-11-12, 03:12 AM

To expand on a previous point from someone else.

Of course, it IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT SCHRODINGER'S WIZARD. That was never in questions. However, I think, given what we've had, give us a build and one of the builds previously posted here(or on previous, similar threads) can beat it. It is impossible to beat Schrodinger's wizard because it is impossible, or near so, it bear Schrodinger's ANYTHING.

So, Hirax(or someone else, but he's the most frequent "WHAT ABOUT THIS?" guy), please give us a probable list for a wizard. Please do so. I assure you, at least one warrior build we've posted(Or the ones I'm currently working on, a RSB and a second archer), will have a decent chance. Please, stop playing the Schrodinger's PC game, it's stupid.

agreed. someone should post a 'generic wizard 20 for PVP' thread.

then people can go over there to debate what it would look like and we can base our builds against it.

however, forcecages at least should be a given for any wizard 20 in pvp. we're not saying that forcecage+dim lock is an unlikely combo, not at all.
the magic stone of antimagic probably is, but let's assume its not and find ways past it.

edit: "Your problem is uncanny forethought effectively makes Schrodinger's wizard a reality."

not in this arena. just no. we're already allowing all-day buffs and wizards to go first by default. thats enough handicaps already. we'll deal with arena situations first and do the rest later.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 03:55 AM

To expand on a previous point from someone else.

Of course, it IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT SCHRODINGER'S WIZARD. That was never in questions. However, I think, given what we've had, give us a build and one of the builds previously posted here(or on previous, similar threads) can beat it. It is impossible to beat Schrodinger's wizard because it is impossible, or near so, it bear Schrodinger's ANYTHING.

So, Hirax(or someone else, but he's the most frequent "WHAT ABOUT THIS?" guy), please give us a probable list for a wizard. Please do so. I assure you, at least one warrior build we've posted(Or the ones I'm currently working on, a RSB and a second archer), will have a decent chance. Please, stop playing the Schrodinger's PC game, it's stupid.

The issue is: This guy is making a fighter to fight wizards. Giving builds will skew towards one wizard trick or another.

I've still not seen any way to counter Obscuring Mist > Superior Invisibility > Either Control Weather (Fog) or Forcecage.

That's a basic combo, and it defeats every detection method brought up for the fighter thus far.

To get past this, the fighter will need a way to see without seeing, and that method must be sufficient to detect invisible creatures without the benefit of mundane sight or sound.

This is not a "Hur hur wizards win". We know that.

This is a "if you expect to fight wizards, be prepared for tricks that reduce or trivialize your senses".

NimbleNZ

2011-11-12, 04:59 AM

The issue is: This guy is making a fighter to fight wizards. Giving builds will skew towards one wizard trick or another.

I've still not seen any way to counter Obscuring Mist > Superior Invisibility > Either Control Weather (Fog) or Forcecage.

That's a basic combo, and it defeats every detection method brought up for the fighter thus far.

To get past this, the fighter will need a way to see without seeing, and that method must be sufficient to detect invisible creatures without the benefit of mundane sight or sound.

This is not a "Hur hur wizards win". We know that.

This is a "if you expect to fight wizards, be prepared for tricks that reduce or trivialize your senses".

not sure why 'Obscuring Mist > Superior Invisibility' is so hard to beat. the build has true seeing, so that only leaves the obscuring mist to deal with. am i missing something here?
failing that > mindsight next time

before i found out about weirdstones (id never heard of them until i made this thread) id have just hopped out of the forcecage with blink shirt.
unless people bring weirdstones, and i dont think they are common, ill still just hop out with blink shirt.

weather control takes 10 minutes to cast, the match only lasts 50 rounds.

Little Brother

2011-11-12, 05:21 AM

Your problem is uncanny forethought effectively makes Schrodinger's wizard a reality.No, not really. It makes your action economy suck. Regardless, to start everything off, let's see your build and list.

The issue is: This guy is making a fighter to fight wizards. Giving builds will skew towards one wizard trick or another.You know what? Fine, what the hell? Kid gloves off. Human fighter 20
Feats:
1 Magical Training
H Practiced Spellcaster
T Eldritch Corruption
3 Heighten spell
6 Sanctum spell
9 Earth sense
12 Earth spell
15 extra slot/Bloodline/Arcane Devotee
18 extra spell/Bloodline/Arcane Devotee
Maybe use flaws to get the cyst or something. Maybe buy some PsiRefs to convert your fighter bonus feats to spells.

Or:aenhoon Illumian Fighter

Magical Training
Heighten Spell
X Bloodline
Arcane Disciple
Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment--Sun Domain.
Extra Turning
Earth Sense.
Earth Spell
Extra Slot

I've still not seen any way to counter Obscuring Mist > Superior Invisibility > Either Control Weather (Fog) or Forcecage.True Seeing? Mindsight? Blindsight of some sort? Blindfighting? Not let you get Control Weather's enormous casting time off? Blink Shirt? Disjunction? Miracle? Wish?

That's a basic combo, and it defeats every detection method brought up for the fighter thus far.Nope

To get past this, the fighter will need a way to see without seeing, and that method must be sufficient to detect invisible creatures without the benefit of mundane sight or sound.High spot check? Again, true seeing?

This is not a "Hur hur wizards win". We know that.No, but it seems to be "Schrodinger+Ignoring brought up tricks

This is a "if you expect to fight wizards, be prepared for tricks that reduce or trivialize your senses".Which I am, and am pointing out counters, which are being ignored.

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 06:59 AM

To be fair, you're playing Schrodinger's Fighter too. No warrior 20 build will have all the counters. Until both sides produce a few FULL builds this is an exercise in futility.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 07:34 AM

No, not really. It makes your action economy suck. Regardless, to start everything off, let's see your build and list.OP doesn't want a wizard that can kill fighters. He wants a fighter that can kill wizards. This isn't a "who wins" debate. It's a "let's think of as many wizard tricks as we can, and try to proof a fighter against as many as possible, per the OP's request".

You don't need a full wizard build for that. You DO need a full fighter build for that.

You know what? Fine, what the hell? Kid gloves off. Human fighter 20
Feats:
1 Magical Training
H Practiced Spellcaster
T Eldritch Corruption
3 Heighten spell
6 Sanctum spell
9 Earth sense
12 Earth spell
15 extra slot/Bloodline/Arcane Devotee
18 extra spell/Bloodline/Arcane Devotee
Maybe use flaws to get the cyst or something. Maybe buy some PsiRefs to convert your fighter bonus feats to spells.

Or:aenhoon Illumian Fighter

Magical Training
Heighten Spell
X Bloodline
Arcane Disciple
Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment--Sun Domain.
Extra Turning
Earth Sense.
Earth Spell
Extra Slot
Gish. OP has explicitly stated that casting is out-of-bounds for the fighter.

True Seeing?Doesn't penetrate mundane fog.

Mindsight?You enter within range of Wizard Mindsight to see. Next action: Wizard ceases casting, casts a forcecage, and watches you sit there impotently.

Blindsight of some sort?Doesn't work vs. Superior invisibility. Explicitly.

Blindfighting?Doesn't help in locating through the fog.

Not let you get Control Weather's enormous casting time off?Rather vague, and without any means for HOW you locate said wizard without approaching within 100 feet of the wizard, and giving away your location.

Blink Shirt?Doesn't bypass Obscuring mist or Superior Invisibility. Also, using it ends your turn, since you can't take actions after using its pathetically short range Dimension Door.

Disjunction? Miracle? Wish?Spellcasting. Spellcasting. Spellcasting.

NopeYep?

High spot check? Again, true seeing?No matter how high your spot roll, you will not see something with total concealment to you, due to fog. True seeing in obscuring mist is limited to precisely 5 foot range, which renders you detectable to the wizard. This is because True Seeing is tied to your visual sense. It has the same limits as your visual sense. You can't recognize an illusion behind a real wall, and you can't see an invisible wizard with 30 feet of real fog between you.

No, but it seems to be "Schrodinger+Ignoring brought up tricksOnly the ones that don't work.

Which I am, and am pointing out counters, which are being ignored.Every one has been addressed, by either the rules, or the OP's express wishes.

Next?

EDIT: Incidentally, "kid gloves off" means the wizard has an arbitrarily large number of Solars and Simulacrums, is immune to damage, is immune to the first 3 disjunctions cast at it, always goes first, and will take 6 rounds of actions on round 1.

Alternately, it could yield a wizard with epic spellcasting at level 18.

Magical Training cheese uses dubious rules interpretations, and is up there with mindraping solar chain gate cheese. Let's keep with what could be considered the usual gentleman's agreements, else we get into silliness, k?

vitkiraven

2011-11-12, 09:07 AM

Would kid gloves being off mean that warrior type tricks are also on the table, like the "sequoia harpoon" and called shots to the throat with said sequoia harpoon?:smallamused:

candycorn

2011-11-12, 09:35 AM

Would kid gloves being off mean that warrior type tricks are also on the table, like the "sequoia harpoon" and called shots to the throat with said sequoia harpoon?:smallamused:

Sequoia harpoons are less than effective against foes immune to damage.

Called shots have no RAW support.

Also, using oversized weapons also increases the hands requires.

For example: A dagger is a light weapon.
A medium dagger, however, is a 1 handed weapon, for a small creature (and gives a -4 penalty).
A dagger sized for a huge creature? A 2 handed weapon, for a medium creature (as well as inappropriate size penalties).
A dagger sized for a gargantuan creature? Cannot be wielded by a medium creature, as it would go beyond 2 handed weapon.

vitkiraven

2011-11-12, 09:45 AM

Sequoia harpoons are less than effective against foes immune to damage.

Called shots have no RAW support.

Also, using oversized weapons also increases the hands requires.

For example: A dagger is a light weapon.
A medium dagger, however, is a 1 handed weapon, for a small creature (and gives a -4 penalty).
A dagger sized for a huge creature? A 2 handed weapon, for a medium creature (as well as inappropriate size penalties).
A dagger sized for a gargantuan creature? Cannot be wielded by a medium creature, as it would go beyond 2 handed weapon.

By "Sequoia Harpoons" I mean a tree shrunk item'd with an obsidian, or other material tip. Blocks Iron Guard quite effectively. There's even a type of wood that remains growing, and would thus should be counted as "Living" for prismatic type blocking.
I've seen the rules for called shots somewhere, but if it's not a sidebar in a book, then I'll concede, although I will have to book-fu to find out where I encountered them.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 10:24 AM

By "Sequoia Harpoons" I mean a tree shrunk item'd with an obsidian, or other material tip. Blocks Iron Guard quite effectively. There's even a type of wood that remains growing, and would thus should be counted as "Living" for prismatic type blocking.
Yes, it would count as living, but, without a wisdom and charisma score, it's still an object. Thus, the Violet barrier will stop it (stops all objects and effects).

I've seen the rules for called shots somewhere, but if it's not a sidebar in a book, then I'll concede, although I will have to book-fu to find out where I encountered them.
Perhaps you saw it in 3rd party.

Regardless, such tricks still must target the right square. And after that, there are a host of spells that still stop it.

Also regardless, in order to target a creature, you must see it. It therefore stands to reason that to aim at a part of a creature, you also must see it.

Nohwl

2011-11-12, 10:44 AM

Alternately, it could yield a wizard with epic spellcasting at level 18.

could you explain how that trick works? don't think i'm familiar with it.

vitkiraven

2011-11-12, 10:53 AM

Yes, it would count as living, but, without a wisdom and charisma score, it's still an object. Thus, the Violet barrier will stop it (stops all objects and effects).

Perhaps you saw it in 3rd party.

Regardless, such tricks still must target the right square. And after that, there are a host of spells that still stop it.

Also regardless, in order to target a creature, you must see it. It therefore stands to reason that to aim at a part of a creature, you also must see it.

Actually, it was in the 3.0 DMG, Page 66-67, Variant: Damage to Specific Areas, just another thing that WOTC Screwed the Pooch on, to make things easier for the wizards. I knew I had seen it in a WOTC book. I suppose it would be easy enough to just (on the DM side) rule a head as a Diminutive item, and add that onto the AC of the Caster, but that's in the realm of DM decisions, and at that point, the wizard, being overpowered as it is, is probably going to be bane-hammered anyway.

Would Making it an Intelligent Magical Item work? And giving it seeking?

Okay, please give me a list of ALL the defenses I need to get rid of, and I'll find a way, WOTC only (Although, nothing in 3.5 counter indicated the variant for 3.0, so by all rights, if it wasn't changed, it should still be in, since in their own words, 3.5 was a revision, not a new addition, and so any rules not changed, remain in play).:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Then again, it's not in the SRD...

Randomguy

2011-11-12, 11:28 AM

Sequoia harpoons are ineffective against ghostform and spheres.

There's a 50 round limit for the fight. Just casting control weather goes over that limit. Besides, the warrior may or may not have a magic item that disperses fog: a wind fan is only 5500 gp.

I agree that we should actually both make a full build each, including a breakdown of wealth by level spent, ability scores, saves, AC, and the like. I could do it, but I don't know where uncanny forethought is from. People can continue to say that uncanny forethought effectively makes it shrodinger's wizard, but only for 10 spells. Not for saving throws, not for AC, not for anything else.

I suggest 32 pointbuy for maximum fairness and two flaws and traits each. Also, no using gate: we'll assume they start off with just enough xp to start off at 20th level, so the wizard wouldn't be able to afford the xp cost.

How many rounds of preparation should we give both characters? If it's 0, then the fighter can't start with magic aura on any of his items. Let team fighter choose this one, it doesn't really matter for team wizard thanks to time stop.

I think it would be worth it for the wizard to grab the collegiate wizard feat at level 1, for a much expanded spellbook. I suggest a vest of the archmagi (MiC), a rod of absorption with all 50 levels used up but none discharged yet and either a staff or runestaff full of good offensive or battlefield control spells, like vortex of teeth and force orb.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 11:48 AM

Actually, it was in the 3.0 DMG, Page 66-67, Variant: Damage to Specific Areas, just another thing that WOTC Screwed the Pooch on, to make things easier for the wizards. I knew I had seen it in a WOTC book. I suppose it would be easy enough to just (on the DM side) rule a head as a Diminutive item, and add that onto the AC of the Caster, but that's in the realm of DM decisions, and at that point, the wizard, being overpowered as it is, is probably going to be bane-hammered anyway.

Would Making it an Intelligent Magical Item work? And giving it seeking?

Okay, please give me a list of ALL the defenses I need to get rid of, and I'll find a way, WOTC only (Although, nothing in 3.5 counter indicated the variant for 3.0, so by all rights, if it wasn't changed, it should still be in, since in their own words, 3.5 was a revision, not a new addition, and so any rules not changed, remain in play).:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Then again, it's not in the SRD...

Variant = Non-standard (see DMG, p.4, sidebar; it describes variants as ways to alter the rules of the game. It further states that anything not identified as a variant is part of the base rules.) Even if 3.0 material is in, it is not the default rules being used; it's a variant.

List of common tricks available to wizards:
Battlefield control - Must be able to effectively navigate Force Effects, solid objects, obscured vision, summoned creatures, illusions, incredibly high winds, and the like.

Save or Lose effects - Must be able to resist spells which are game enders if you fail. These include a wide variety of effects. Some are susceptible to spell resistance, some have descriptors (like Mind-affecting or Death).

Contingency - Must be able to nullify contingency spells, or get a wizard into a bad position multiple times.

Touch attack Lose effects - Must be able to avoid spells which are game enders if you are hit. See: Mailman.

Magical Defenses - varied. Invisibility, haste, mirror image, etc etc etc.

Must be able to escape traps set up using 4-6 spell sequences (through time stop).

Must be immune to magic missile (it's quite feasible to get multiple hundreds of damage in a round with even this humble spell).

Uncommon Tricks:

Ideally should be able to bypass or immunity to damage. Not damage of a specific type. ALL damage. (Shapechange into Crystalline Troll, Energy Immunity: Sonic, and Favor of the Martyr render a caster immune to damage, as well as many effects.)

Ideally should be undetectable to Lifesense and Mindsight.

Ideally should be able to fight the wizard, along with multiple other creatures (gate, summon, etc)

Ideally should be able to survive in most environments, as a wizard can bring most environments to you.

Those are quite a few wizard tricks that don't involve heavy cheese.

Also, being able to navigate illusions does not always mean disbelieving them. Some wizard types actually make disbelieving an illusion more painful than believing it.

There are other tricks, common ones, even. Those are what I came up with off the top of my head.

Sequoia harpoons are ineffective against ghostform and spheres.

There's a 50 round limit for the fight. Just casting control weather goes over that limit. Besides, the warrior may or may not have a magic item that disperses fog: a wind fan is only 5500 gp.

I agree that we should actually both make a full build each, including a breakdown of wealth by level spent, ability scores, saves, AC, and the like. I could do it, but I don't know where uncanny forethought is from. People can continue to say that uncanny forethought effectively makes it shrodinger's wizard, but only for 10 spells. Not for saving throws, not for AC, not for anything else.

I suggest 32 pointbuy for maximum fairness and two flaws and traits each. Also, no using gate: we'll assume they start off with just enough xp to start off at 20th level, so the wizard wouldn't be able to afford the xp cost.

How many rounds of preparation should we give both characters? If it's 0, then the fighter can't start with magic aura on any of his items. Let team fighter choose this one, it doesn't really matter for team wizard thanks to time stop.

I think it would be worth it for the wizard to grab the collegiate wizard feat at level 1, for a much expanded spellbook. I suggest a vest of the archmagi (MiC), a rod of absorption with all 50 levels used up but none discharged yet and either a staff or runestaff full of good offensive or battlefield control spells, like vortex of teeth and force orb.
THIS IS NOT A CONTEST.

We're not trying to prove anything. That has been done to death. Look at the tier system.

This silly competition you are suggesting, and is often suggested, will show precisely nothing. It will prove precisely nothing. It will mean precisely nothing. And it will do precisely nothing for the OP's request. By any measure that it could possibly be judged, it is a worthless endeavor, and I do not waste my time with those.

vitkiraven

2011-11-12, 11:53 AM

Are all of these builds on the same person. I know a great majority of them are, but are all of them?

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 12:02 PM

THIS IS NOT A CONTEST.

Huh. You coulda fooled me. I thought an arena fight titled, "warrior vs wizard" was pretty clearly a contest.

We're not trying to prove anything. That has been done to death. Look at the tier system.

Maybe you're not trying to prove anything, but other people in this thread are trying to prove that AMF Grapple Barbarians and Hide in Plain Sight Archer Fighters can kill 20th level Wizards. Of course they are not correct, but coming up with an actual Wizard build and confirming all of the things it can do is the best way I can think of to quash these outlandish claims.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 12:03 PM

Are all of these builds on the same person. I know a great majority of them are, but are all of them?

Does it matter?

You're building a character to fight wizards. In the proposed setting given by the OP, the build of the wizard is not known. Therefore, you wouldn't know what individual abilities such a wizard would have. If that wizard has one ability you didn't prepare for, and it's a good ability, then you lose.

For the record, I could get most, if not all, of these abilities on one build. For example: a Mailman can do almost everything on the list (barring hyper-real illusions).

Most of these abilities are a spell or two. A level 20 wizard can have, reasonably:{table]Spell Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
Number of Spells|6|9|9|9|9|8|8|8|8|7[/table]
That's over 80 spells in a day. Almost 40 of those are level 6 or higher.

Yes, it's quite possible to have just about all of these on a single build.

Huh. You coulda fooled me. I thought an arena fight titled, "warrior vs wizard" was pretty clearly a contest.It isn't an arena fight. It's a thread, written by someone building a fighter type to use against wizards in an arena, somewhere else. That someone is looking for brainstorming, assistance, and critiques.

Not arena fights to settle personal squabbles, before helping.

Maybe you're not trying to prove anything
and maybe that's because I'm starting with the original topic, where the OP wasn't, either.

i'd appreciate it if no one said 'fighters suck at pvp rar rar'. after four builds, i am well aware of this by now :smallwink:
making the best of a bad deal and playing the underdog is the whole point of this exercise for me.

...but other people in this thread are trying to prove that AMF Grapple Barbarians and Hide in Plain Sight Archer Fighters can kill 20th level Wizards. Of course they are not correct, but coming up with an actual Wizard build and confirming all of the things it can do is the best way I can think of to quash these outlandish claims.
Actually, they are correct. A poorly made wizard could well be taken down by something like that. But that's neither here nor there. If someone else wants to descend into that abyss, I see no reason to follow them with contests and challenges. It's been done to death, and there is no point. At all.

tyckspoon

2011-11-12, 12:05 PM

The common tricks list yes, trivially; those can be achieved simply by selecting and preparing appropriate spells. They don't need any special build to pull off (well, aside from the Mailman-blaster-specialist thing.) Whether or not any given wizard has those is entirely up to the preferences of that wizard/his player; any wizard *could*, and an optimization-minded wizard *will* because while many enemies can deal with one or two of them very few can deal with all of them.

The uncommon tricks are uncommon because they require actual limited build resources to achieve (feats, specific PrC class levels, etc.) You should be prepared for as many of them as possible, because they will completely screw you if you run into one you didn't prepare for, but it's possible to make a decent risk assessment and decide on a few you probably are ok not being as well prepared for because they're unlikely to happen (or they're niche enough that you figure you've proved the capability of your build anyway.. if somebody really has to resort to an infinite-recursion Arcane Fusion/Hail of Stone to put you down, you can at least claim moral victory.)

Ziegander

2011-11-12, 12:36 PM

Not arena fights to settle personal squabbles, before helping.

I'm not looking to turn this into an actual, played-out fight, but still, I suppose you're right. I should just ignore the people trying to say HiPS Archers kill well-built Wizards, but that crap gets me worked up for no good reason... :smallredface:

"arena is a 1000 ft cube, leaving the arena forfeits, celerity is allowed, only 1 contingency allowed, match lasts 50 rounds, audiance or DM decide the winner if both combatants still active at the end. I've used whatever books i can find for the warrior so the wizard can do the same"

For the record, though, it looks to me like the OP wants us to provide Wizard builds as well as advice for his build, but also to assume a fight. Probably he doesn't want us to actually duke it out, but it seems clear to me that the frame of this discussion is a theoretical arena match.

JoeYounger

2011-11-12, 12:37 PM

tyckspoon

2011-11-12, 12:52 PM

To get out of the force cage easily enough the fighter could drop some cash on a marvelous pigment and just draw a hole thru the spell couldn't he? I saw someone reference this in another thread, and after reading both the wondrous item and the spell, I'm not seeing why it wouldn't work!

Two major problems I can see right away: The pigments specify you create 'an object'. A hole is rather more the lack of an object, and it's not clear the pigments would understand what you wanted when you tried to draw it. The other problem is it takes 10 minutes to form an image with the pigments, which is time you don't really have if somebody is actively working against you instead of Forcecaging you and just wandering away to go do something else.

(3rd problem- the barred version of a Forcecage will not have a contiguous surface for you to draw a large enough hole on even if it does work. You'd have to draw absence-of-forcecage along the entire thing, and I don't even want to think about how you visualize that as a two-dimensional image.. goes back to the not-an-object thing.)

JoeYounger

2011-11-12, 01:07 PM

Two major problems I can see right away: The pigments specify you create 'an object'. A hole is rather more the lack of an object, and it's not clear the pigments would understand what you wanted when you tried to draw it. The other problem is it takes 10 minutes to form an image with the pigments, which is time you don't really have if somebody is actively working against you instead of Forcecaging you and just wandering away to go do something else.

(3rd problem- the barred version of a Forcecage will not have a contiguous surface for you to draw a large enough hole on even if it does work. You'd have to draw absence-of-forcecage along the entire thing, and I don't even want to think about how you visualize that as a two-dimensional image.. goes back to the not-an-object thing.)

I hadnt looked at the time req, thats my bad. But one of the examples used in the description is drawing a hole on the ground, or thru a wall.

vitkiraven

2011-11-12, 01:10 PM

THIS IS NOT A CONTEST.
We're not trying to prove anything. That has been done to death. Look at the tier system.

I greatly agree with you in this matter. The filthy sycophant of spell and psi reign supreme at the top of the list, as the options that they have are just SO vast. This contest, in my mind at least, isn't to show that Melee spec non-casters are superior to those who do use something other than their own power. It just isn't the case. It's to find a way for some well spec'd warrior to have a decent chance at the trope of wizard killing.

I was trying to work around all of the things that you were suggesting, to prove that casters can have a roll in the campaign world I am currently setting up. Thank you for showing me much of the things a single caster can set up. As I am currently making a campaign, I am specifically doing this to save casters from the DM nerfbat. My main objective is to see all of these cheesy spellcaster combos, to determine how badly I have to ban-hammer the classes themselves. It's not looking good for the tier 1's and 2's.

I'd think that Warblade would be a better bet than Fighter, though, maybe with a Dragonforged to deal with a lot of the issues and immunities, and if still possible, imbed all magic items as components (if that follows the living construct type, rather than a warforged feature, AFB, so not sure).
Maybe a level of Ranger for ACF Arcanist Hunter and Nemesis would be good things to add to the mix, and an item of continual mindblank?

Curmudgeon

2011-11-12, 01:43 PM

You can ignore concealment miss chance with PMC. You don't ignore the inability to see through actual fog that is actually there.
Yes, you do when that fog is magically created; that's explicit in Pierce Magical Concealment. From page 82 of Complete Arcane:
Benefit: Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghostform (see page 109), and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor with illusory fire and smoke). In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments. Your ability to ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment doesn't grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment (so you would still have a 20% miss chance against an invisible creature hiding in fog, for example). You cannot see through natural fog, but you can see through magical fog created by Obscuring Mist.
A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). That total concealment (50% miss chance) is a stated property of the spell Obscuring Mist, and Pierce Magical Concealment explicitly ignores that.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 02:27 PM

First: Miss Chance does not equal concealment (incorporeal creatures have miss chance as well). Concealment does not equal miss chance (other rules apply to concealment, such as hiding, and ability to target). You are trying to oversimplify, and provide more function to the feat than the rules allow.

Benefit: Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghostform (see page 109), and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor with illusory fire and smoke). In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments. Your ability to ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment doesn't grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment (so you would still have a 20% miss chance against an invisible creature hiding in fog, for example).Emphasis Mine.

Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
There are a whole mess of restrictions that apply when someone has total concealment. There are benefits that apply when someone has concealment.

For example: When someone has concealment, they may hide. Pierce Magical Concealment does not alter this rule, so it stands.

When someone has LoE but not LoS, they have total concealment.
When someone has total concealment, you may not attack them.
When someone has total concealment, attacks made against them suffer a 50% miss chance.

Of the last three statements, only the last one is addressed by Pierce Magical Concealment. Since the feat does not alter other aspects of concealment, they are not altered.

A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).Emphasis mine.

The underlined section is negated by Pierce Magical Concealment (as the feat explicitly allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells such as Obscuring Mist). The bolded section is not (as it does not allow you to disregard other aspects of concealment).

Note: The feat does not state that it alters whether a subject HAS concealment from you. It only alters what penalties your attacks have for that concealment. I defy you to find anything in the feat that states that you ignore concealment. It doesn't. You ignore the MISS CHANCE from Concealment, but not Concealment itself, and thus, not other aspects of concealment.

The feat does not address anything other than the miss chance.

Seriously, your argument is like saying that Fire Elementals can't be hurt by a red dragon's claws, because they're immune to its breath. There are more aspects to Concealment than just miss chance.

The feat basically states: When a concealment effect granted by a spell would impose an additional chance to miss, it does not.

What it does NOT state is: You may see through any or all illusions and nonpermanent conjured effects that could provide concealment.

That total concealment (50% miss chance) is a stated property of the spell Obscuring Mist, and Pierce Magical Concealment explicitly ignores that.
Half right. To correct:

That total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target) is a stated property of the spell, Obscuring Mist, and Pierce Magical Concealment explicitly ignores the miss chance portion of that.

Little Brother

2011-11-12, 02:52 PM

OP doesn't want a wizard that can kill fighters. He wants a fighter that can kill wizards. This isn't a "who wins" debate. It's a "let's think of as many wizard tricks as we can, and try to proof a fighter against as many as possible, per the OP's request".

You don't need a full wizard build for that. You DO need a full fighter build for that.Oh, geez, I didn't realize I could write "Schrodinger" on a character sheet, then switch all my spells and feats on the fly. Thank you for educating me.

Gish. OP has explicitly stated that casting is out-of-bounds for the fighter.No he hasn't.

Doesn't penetrate mundane fog.Good thing you don't GET mundane fog.

You enter within range of Wizard Mindsight to see. Next action: Wizard ceases casting, casts a forcecage, and watches you sit there impotently.Good thing I'm in an AMF and my telepathy works there. Yours doesn't.

Doesn't help in locating through the fog.Good thing I know where you are with Mindsight or the like. Don't need to bother figuring it out.

Rather vague, and without any means for HOW you locate said wizard without approaching within 100 feet of the wizard, and giving away your location.Good thing he can't find me with his mindsight and I am good at hiding. With Darkstalker.

Doesn't bypass Obscuring mist or Superior Invisibility. Also, using it ends your turn, since you can't take actions after using its pathetically short range Dimension Door.Nope, but it gets me out of Forcecage and you STILL can't see me.

Spellcasting. Spellcasting. Spellcasting.Sp? It's on a fighter. That is the condition of the challenge, it has to be a warrior.

Yep?Again, nope. Dimension Door if need be, you don't GET natural fog, Obscuring Mist is easy to work around, etc.

No matter how high your spot roll, you will not see something with total concealment to you, due to fog. True seeing in obscuring mist is limited to precisely 5 foot range, which renders you detectable to the wizard. This is because True Seeing is tied to your visual sense. It has the same limits as your visual sense. You can't recognize an illusion behind a real wall, and you can't see an invisible wizard with 30 feet of real fog between you.
Only the ones that don't work.Good thing I just have a 50% miss chance 'cuz I know where you are. When I'm throwing out over 10 attacks that do over triple your HP, losing 50% of them isn't such a big deal.

Every one has been addressed, by either the rules, or the OP's express wishes.Nope. Try again.

Next?

EDIT: Incidentally, "kid gloves off" means the wizard has an arbitrarily large number of Solars and Simulacrums, is immune to damage, is immune to the first 3 disjunctions cast at it, always goes first, and will take 6 rounds of actions on round 1.So do I.

Alternately, it could yield a wizard with epic spellcasting at level 18.How?

Magical Training cheese uses dubious rules interpretations, and is up there with mindraping solar chain gate cheese. Let's keep with what could be considered the usual gentleman's agreements, else we get into silliness, k?No. It is clearly RAW. Period. There is no "Dubiousness" to it.

Would kid gloves being off mean that warrior type tricks are also on the table, like the "sequoia harpoon" and called shots to the throat with said sequoia harpoon?:smallamused:???

Maybe you're not trying to prove anything, but other people in this thread are trying to prove that AMF Grapple Barbarians and Hide in Plain Sight Archer Fighters can kill 20th level Wizards. Of course they are not correct, but coming up with an actual Wizard build and confirming all of the things it can do is the best way I can think of to quash these outlandish claims.Thank you. Again, have no opinion whether it's probable, I just say that a few builds have a far better chance.

To get out of the force cage easily enough the fighter could drop some cash on a marvelous pigment and just draw a hole thru the spell couldn't he? I saw someone reference this in another thread, and after reading both the wondrous item and the spell, I'm not seeing why it wouldn't work!Uh, holes are a lack of something, not something in and of themselves. A teleport usable inside an AMF is easily doable with WBL, though. A bit pricy, but...

Curmudgeon

2011-11-12, 03:06 PM

Half right. To correct:

That total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target) is a stated property of the spell, Obscuring Mist, and Pierce Magical Concealment explicitly ignores the miss chance portion of that.
Miss chance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_misschance&alpha=M) treats this as one condition, per the definitions:
miss chance

The possibility that a successful attack roll misses anyway because of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location. An attack roll which successfully beats the enemy's AC, but is aimed at the wrong square, misses anyway because you're uncertain about the target's location. If you cannot use sight to locate the target and have to guess which square to attack, you are uncertain about the target's location; it's just one inseparable effect (total concealment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_totalconcealment&alpha=T) = 50% miss chance = cannot use sight to locate the target).
total concealment

Attacks against a target with total concealment have a 50% miss chance. Total concealment blocks line of sight.

candycorn

2011-11-12, 03:14 PM

Miss chance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_misschance&alpha=M) treats this as one condition, per the definitions: An attack roll which successfully beats the enemy's AC, but is aimed at the wrong square, misses anyway because you're uncertain about the target's location. If you cannot use sight to locate the target and have to guess which square to attack, you are uncertain about the target's location;Incorrect. If you have total concealment, you cannot attack the target at all. You can attack the target's square, or any other square. And you can hit that just fine. But you cannot attack the target. So attacks which are not targeting an individual cannot be ruled to have a probability of missing something they're not targeting due to uncertainty over something that's not being targeted's location.

You're trying to inject logic into rules.

For determining concealment at ranges above 5 feet: choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.

PMC does NOT negate this.

Concealment goes on to list several effects. One of which is a miss chance. That is a reserved term. The glossary does not trump other instances of miss chance. Specifically, the SRD definition:
Concealment Miss Chance

Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack. Concealment Miss ChanceThere is concealment Miss chance. Is guessing at the square covered in this above definition? No. Then by the rules of the game, it is not a Concealment Miss chance.

it's just one inseparable effect (total concealment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_totalconcealment&alpha=T) = 50% miss chance = cannot use sight to locate the target).Where does it say that the effects cannot be seperated? I don't see that anywhere.

I see: When your target has total concealment, the following applies:
your attacks suffer from a 50% miss chance, AND you cannot use sight to locate the target.

PMC states that you disregard the miss chance. It does not state that you ignore the other things.

It's seperable, because the feat you're talking about seperates it.

Really, by your reading, the following is true:
Someone with PMC can: See the true form of creatures under the effect of PaO (into shrubs). After all, those shrubs could be providing concealment.

See anyone who is invisible, at any range, by any magic effect.

See through any illusion of terrain or objects, as it provides concealment.

See through any non-instantaneous conjuration of an object which provides concealment.

See through a Wall of Fire, a wall of gloom, a wall of thorns, and a wall of gloom.

Really? Are we really arguing that interpretation? That's like permanent hyper true seeing, rolled in with 3 class features, and 2 spells. Based on out of context glossary terms, in direct contradiction of primary source.

************************************************** ****

Oh, geez, I didn't realize I could write "Schrodinger" on a character sheet, then switch all my spells and feats on the fly. Thank you for educating me.Sarcasm will not engender good communication. I will disregard further snark.

We're not trying to build a wizard that can beat fighters. The OP wants to build a fighter that can beat wizards. Not my wizard, or your wizard, but wizards in general. So using multiple examples of common abilities is not out of line. If you think it is, then you are entitled to that.

If you think you're entitled to be rude to me without making it on my ignore list, well, you're not.

No he hasn't.Really? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12196150&postcount=36)

If you really want to pursue that route: Level 11, with no expenditure of XP: Wizard has enough Solar Simulacrums to fill every square of the arena not occupied by a fighter or a wizard. Good day.

Good thing you don't GET mundane fog.PMC does not enhance your vision. It just reduces miss chance. In the most magicky magick of magick fogs, you ignore the miss chance. You still suffer the inability to see things. PMC does not let you see invisible creatures (magically granted total concealment). It just lets you hit them if you aim at the right square. Same thing.

Good thing I'm in an AMF and my telepathy works there. Yours doesn't.As long as the wizard is outside of the AMF, his Mindsight works. Range is a specified term for telepathy. That is listed in the entry that grants it. AMFs do not alter the range of the ability. Since mindsight is EX, and is based on that unaltered range, it functions in an AMF, so long as the creature with the SU telepathy is not in it.

Good thing I know where you are with Mindsight or the like. Don't need to bother figuring it out.And great thing there's a time stop, followed by a force cage, a weirdstone, and enough spells to nuke a small island.

Good thing he can't find me with his mindsight and I am good at hiding. With Darkstalker.Incorrect. Again.

Nope, but it gets me out of Forcecage and you STILL can't see me.Not in an AMF, it doesn't... Who was playing Schroedinger, again?

Sp? It's on a fighter. That is the condition of the challenge, it has to be a warrior.See above again.

Again, nope. Dimension Door if need be, you don't GET natural fog, Obscuring Mist is easy to work around, etc. More flawed conclusions based on improper understanding of the rules.

Good thing I just have a 50% miss chance 'cuz I know where you are. When I'm throwing out over 10 attacks that do over triple your HP, losing 50% of them isn't such a big deal.More snark. Please. There is a civil way to do this and a rude way. I'd much prefer the former.

How?Dragonwrought Kobold (max age category), at level 18, with proper classes and feats, can have caster level 21 and 9th level spells. By being an old true dragon, it qualifies for epic feats. Through Psychic reformation and purchased bardic inspire greatness, it can be over 20 HD, and have 25 skill ranks in the necessary skills.

In conclusion, no further comments by you will be addressed by me, until you choose to address the level of civility that you are practicing... or, to be more accurate, not practicing.

Little Brother

2011-11-12, 04:10 PM

Sarcasm will not engender good communication. I will disregard further snark.

We're not trying to build a wizard that can beat fighters. The OP wants to build a fighter that can beat wizards. Not my wizard, or your wizard, but wizards in general. So using multiple examples of common abilities is not out of line. If you think it is, then you are entitled to that.And we need a baseline, or nothing makes anything.

If you think you're entitled to be rude to me without making it on my ignore list, well, you're not.
Really? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12196150&postcount=36)Last I checked, fighters don't give spells. Can you show me where it says this?

If you really want to pursue that route: Level 11, with no expenditure of XP: Wizard has enough Solar Simulacrums to fill every square of the arena not occupied by a fighter or a wizard. Good day.So does the fighter. Next.

PMC does not enhance your vision. It just reduces miss chance. In the most magicky magick of magick fogs, you ignore the miss chance. You still suffer the inability to see things. PMC does not let you see invisible creatures (magically granted total concealment). It just lets you hit them if you aim at the right square. Same thing.Good thing True Sight laughs at you.

As long as the wizard is outside of the AMF, his Mindsight works. Range is a specified term for telepathy. That is listed in the entry that grants it. AMFs do not alter the range of the ability. Since mindsight is EX, and is based on that unaltered range, it functions in an AMF, so long as the creature with the SU telepathy is not in it.Nope, it is dependent on if someone is in range of your telepathy. Telepathy doesn't extend into AMFs.

And great thing there's a time stop, followed by a force cage, a weirdstone, and enough spells to nuke a small island.Good thing I have everything you do. Miracle, Gate, etc.

Incorrect. Again.Nope.

Not in an AMF, it doesn't... Who was playing Schroedinger, again?Not me. Stick the item of AMF in my pocket. It blocks effect.

See above again.Nope.

More flawed conclusions based on improper understanding of the rules.Nope. You have to use 100 rounds to get Control Weather off, you only have 50. I can bypass Obscuring Fog.

More snark. Please. There is a civil way to do this and a rude way. I'd much prefer the former.How is THAT snark? Seriously?
Dragonwrought Kobold (max age category), at level 18, with proper classes and feats, can have caster level 21 and 9th level spells. By being an old true dragon, it qualifies for epic feats. Through Psychic reformation and purchased bardic inspire greatness, it can be over 20 HD, and have 25 skill ranks in the necessary skills.[/quote]Sure, my fighter can do the same thing. Your point?

In conclusion, no further comments by you will be addressed by me, until you choose to address the level of civility that you are practicing... or, to be more accurate, not practicing.Uh-huh. Really? Seriously?

Translation: "I can't beat your argument, so I am gonna make some bull excuse to get out of it."

Curmudgeon

2011-11-12, 05:37 PM

Incorrect. If you have total concealment, you cannot attack the target at all.
...
You're trying to inject logic into rules.
Sure. And I'm also trying to follow those rules. The feat Pierce Magical Concealment pierces magical concealment.
concealment

Something that prevents an attacker from clearly seeing his or her target. Concealment creates a chance that an otherwise successful attack misses (a miss chance). With this feat you get to pierce magical concealment, including all aspects of that concealment. It's not called Pierce Only Magical Miss Chance, after all.

JoeYounger

2011-11-12, 07:24 PM

Uh, holes are a lack of something, not something in and of themselves. A teleport usable inside an AMF is easily doable with WBL, though. A bit pricy, but...

I know that there is a difference, but the item uses drawing a hole as an example in the DMG of what it is capable of doing.

Little Brother

2011-11-12, 08:05 PM

I know that there is a difference, but the item uses drawing a hole as an example in the DMG of what it is capable of doing.Oh, really? Nevermind, then.

candycorn

2011-11-13, 12:36 AM

Ignoring further text from little brother, as I do not want to be drawn into the type of discussion he is seemingly intent to have. I don't care for your "translations", sir, and I don't care for your method of arguing, which consists of a whole lot of disagreeing and sarcasm, and precious little reasoning, rules cited, or other support for your position that would normally indicate a strong argument. Correct these issues, and I will address your points. Don't, and I won't. Ball's in your court.

Sure. And I'm also trying to follow those rules. The feat Pierce Magical Concealment pierces magical concealment. With this feat you get to pierce magical concealment, including all aspects of that concealment. It's not called Pierce Only Magical Miss Chance, after all.
You're absolutely right (on your last sentence, at least). It's not called that. But the RULES governing the feat don't say "Ignore concealment". They say "disregard miss chance".

No matter how you try to argue it, no matter how you try to spin it, that is true. NOTHING in the Pierce Magical Concealment feat states that you SEE through concealment effects. Only that you disregard miss chance, and a few additional specific spell interactions.

Your definition is correct. Concealment is something that prevents an attacker from clearly seeing his target. When you have PMC, you ignore the miss chances normally entailed. Attacks that are aimed in the right area pierce through it. Because Pierce Magical Concealment refers to your your ATTACKS piercing. Not your vision. Even mirror image, you still SEE the images. You just know which one is the real image.

Fireball does not create burning rubber balls. It deals fire damage within a 20 foot radius of the effect's center. Because the spell says so.
Haste does not give you additional attacks on a standard attack. It gives one extra attack on a full attack. Because the spell says so.
Dodge doesn't let you automatically dodge attacks. It provides a bonus to AC. Because the feat says so.
Pierce Magical Concealment doesn't let you see through concealment. It allows you to disregard the Concealment Miss Chance from magical effects. Because the feat says so.

There's a pattern here. If we do what the feat says, and only what the feat says, then what you say cannot be correct. Concealment Miss Chance is defined, in primary source, as this:
Concealment Miss Chance

Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack. Concealment Miss Chance This is the primary definition of Concealment Miss Chance. When an effect refers to Concealment Miss Chance, this is what it refers to.

kulosle

2011-11-14, 05:08 AM

this thread seams to be digressing fast. to be more on topic obscuring mist, as already been stated, can be removed with a fan. this is assuming that the next build, which i hope you do, doesn't go the VoP route. and superior invisibility is countered due to true seeing.

so to make this slightly less schrodinger can some present what a optimized/un-optimized/de-optimized wizards spells per day would be. because i keep hearing talk of the wizard having several buffs on him and then casting 6-8 spells turn 1. i do understand that wizards don't have to choose their spells but they do have a spell limit.

as to the pierce magical concealment argument. of course it isn't called "pierce only magical concealment". just like point blank shot isn't called "point blank shot with ranged attacks" or "power attack with melee" i'm sure there are better examples than those. the feats name doesn't state what it excludes only what it includes. i have to admit i thought it would work at first too, but the evidence has been given that proves otherwise.

i swear i saw something somewhere that let you make strength checks to break walls of force, it sounds like it's probably an epic level something so that might be why i can't find it at the moment. any who the force cage has already been AMF away thanks to that new RAW reading pointed out earlier.

also there is the fun swift hunter trick to be able to able to get your skirmish off regardless of what the wizard does.

also i would like to add that these builds can defeat the majority of wizards. only the very optimized are going to be able to snap it like a twig.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 06:22 AM

this thread seams to be digressing fast. to be more on topic obscuring mist, as already been stated, can be removed with a fan. this is assuming that the next build, which i hope you do, doesn't go the VoP route. and superior invisibility is countered due to true seeing.That does work. But using the fan costs actions, and it's just as possible to create a less destroyable means of shielding.

so to make this slightly less schrodinger can some present what a optimized/un-optimized/de-optimized wizards spells per day would be. because i keep hearing talk of the wizard having several buffs on him and then casting 6-8 spells turn 1. i do understand that wizards don't have to choose their spells but they do have a spell limit.Correct, they do have a spell limit. Around 80 spells. Superior Invisibility would be in there. True seeing works within a very short range, comparatively (120 feet is knife fighting range, when you're trying to hide from the same).

as to the pierce magical concealment argument. of course it isn't called "pierce only magical concealment". just like point blank shot isn't called "point blank shot with ranged attacks" or "power attack with melee" i'm sure there are better examples than those. the feats name doesn't state what it excludes only what it includes. i have to admit i thought it would work at first too, but the evidence has been given that proves otherwise.Absolutely. In fact, if you look at concealment's glossary definition, it states that it grants a miss chance, not that it IS one.

i swear i saw something somewhere that let you make strength checks to break walls of force, it sounds like it's probably an epic level something so that might be why i can't find it at the moment.Legendary Dreadnaught, I believe. Epic Prestige Class.

also i would like to add that these builds can defeat the majority of wizards. only the very optimized are going to be able to snap it like a twig.

There's a lot of options, and each build list will vary. Using specific spell loadouts is very good for a match. It's horrible, absolutely worthless, for what we need to do here. And that's determine the weaknesses of the fighter build vs magic, and how to fix them.

Acanous

2011-11-14, 08:48 AM

Eh, I'd rule that PMC would defeat Obscuring Mist because OM is pointed out specifically as something PMC pierces. Specific trumps general, and saying "This feat lets you ignore Obscuring Mist" means the spell counts as though it hadn't been cast.

As far as the Warrior V Wizard fight goes, my money would actually be on a luck-feat happy Necropolitan Ranger.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-14, 09:30 AM

Good thing wizards have more than one spell per day.

It's not intended as a primary defense. It's a last ditch option to not die this turn if he pulls out the perfect spell that you are unprepared for. Given how little it costs at this level, it's a very, very easy choice to take it.

As to the starting with what buffs active question, this battle is supposed to be against a fairly competent wizard, so the wizard should already have his all day buffs active. This means some or all of the following:

Phantom steed or Overland Flight (caster's preference; speed vs. reliability vs. what level spell slot they're willing to use.)
Moment of persience
Mind Blank
Death Throes if they want to be cruel and know they're going to be in an arena.
Possibly elemental body (Is that worth the slot? A fire elemental body is better than a fire immunity spell any day (when you're on your own) and an air elemental body gives flight so you don't need a different spell for that, as well as air mastery (meh) and the standard immuities (pretty good.),
Heart of X, most likely heart of water for freedom of movement when necessary.
Possibly elemental immunity but probably not.

Any suggestions?

Assume all four heart spells for heavy fortification, as well as greater mage armor(why not?) and one of the resistance line if they lack a cloak of resistance. Those are 24 hour or hr/lvl buffs, and can be expected to be cast for any normal fights.

Unless there's a minimum of one round of preparation before the arena match starts, it's unreasonable to assume that the wizard has foresight active because of it's duration: even extended via metamagic rod, it only lasts about 6 hours, so not worth the spell slot to cast every day in the morning. (But certainly worth it most other times.)

It's a fairly likely buff, though I agree it's not guaranteed. If there was a notable chance of combat, I'd want it up. If this was a complete surprise for both combatants, this would not likely be the case....but that seems a bit odd for a duel.

I think this build could take on many wizards, but not necessarily all of them. Yes, people are tossing out a bunch of different possibilities...but not all wizards will have all those possibilities available. I would expect this char to do fairly well at fighting wizards...though perhaps not so well at fighting other things.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 09:54 AM

Eh, I'd rule that PMC would defeat Obscuring Mist because OM is pointed out specifically as something PMC pierces. Specific trumps general, and saying "This feat lets you ignore Obscuring Mist" means the spell counts as though it hadn't been cast.

...except it doesn't state that.

Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghostform (see page 109), and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor
with illusory fire and smoke).

Does it say you ignore obscuring mist? No.
Does it say you ignore concealment? No.
Does it say you ignore the miss chance that's granted by spells? Yes.

So, if there is a rogue hidden in a darkness spell, and you walk in the room, he still has concealment. That rogue can hide just fine. Next, that rogue attacks you. This ends his hide, after the attack (and the rogue's concealment roll). Now you can see the rogue. He can't hide, as you're observing him. If you attack him, normally, you would have to roll a 20% miss chance. Here is where PMC comes in. You disregard that.

If a wizard casts invisibility, you still can't see him. He has total concealment. Now, you, being a savvy character, have scent, and happen to pass next to him. You automatically pinpoint the wizard, and can attack it. Normally, an invisible wizard gets a 50% miss chance, for total concealment. Here is where PMC comes in. You disregard that.

If a wizard casts Obscuring Mist, and is in the middle of it, you see the fog, and it blocks your LOS. Say you enter that fog, and manage to get adjacent to the hiding wizard. You now can spot check, and you pass, so you see him, despite the concealment. Normally, when you attack, the concealment granted by obscuring mist grants a 20% miss chance. Here is where PMC comes in. You disregard that.

There is a common pattern here.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-14, 10:32 AM

Specific builds were requested, so I'll toss up a generic dueling wizard build. It's not tailored for this challenge, but it's not unlike what I'd play in an actual game.

Human Necropolitan Abjurer 5/Iot7V 7/Incantatrix 8(alternative, probably superior option would be grey elf/elven generalist. Depends how much I wanted the feat)
Banned Schools: Enchantment(banned by incantatrix, I still have some spells known of it), Evocation, Necromancy
Feats(other than prereqs): Craft Contingent Spell. Extend Spell. Persist Spell. Invisible Spell. Also, the feat I can't recall the name of that lets me spont cast int mod # of spells.

Familiar: Hummingbird

24 hr buffs up at any given time: Heart of X spells, Greater Mage Armor, Ironguard, the +4 Int, dex and con buffs, Superior Invisibility, True Seeing, Mind Blank, Foresight, Shapechange, Overland Flight.

Items: Wands of decently CLed Arcane Spellsurge(no quicken in this build, after all) and wings of cover. Belt of Battle. The Rainment of 4, with items from the veils set filling all remaining slots. +6 int buff, +4 con, +4 dex added on later per MIC rules. Orange Ioun Stone. Two rings of counterspelling, loaded with different types of dispels. Remaining WBL(A lot) spent on spells known and consumables(scrolls of spells of banned schools, etc).

Memberships: Church of Magic.

Note the entire lack of searing spell/quicken. While these are really handy spells, this is more of a generalist build, and it focuses more on sheer volume of options being dumped out until a weakness is found. Expect a nerveskitter for initial init(after all, why not) and a very wide spell selection. If foresight fails to work, blanketing the likely areas with AoEs will probably happen, as well as flattening anyone who tries to attack the wizard. The veils and standard defensive buffs should provide adequate layers of protection against most standard attacks.

I would consider this a decent, but not at all cheesy contender. There are no crazy interactions, just a bunch of individually solid choices.

Edit: Also, for surviving searing spell, I recommend investigating luck feats. There's one that, 1/day prevents death by hp damage. I'm aware this is only a temporary solution, but what's important is that it disguises the presence of the weakness while the wizard is testing your defenses.

dextercorvia

2011-11-14, 11:21 AM

@Tyndmyr, Why two different sources of enhancement bonuses to those ability scores?

Other than that, it looks like a good baseline for an Optimized Wizard to Beat.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-14, 11:29 AM

@Tyndmyr, Why two different sources of enhancement bonuses to those ability scores?

Other than that, it looks like a good baseline for an Optimized Wizard to Beat.

Doh. My bad. I generally use the buffs until I hit a point where I have enough free gold to buy the enhancements. Downside to using historical records for a char. Yeah, I'd use either one or the other, and in the case of equipment(since Im not tight on gold), I'd toss on a few more situational buffs like Vigor off a wand, protection from arrows, and at least one type of energy resistance.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-14, 02:42 PM

...except it doesn't state that.
It says it in the feat's name: Pierce Magical Concealment.

Eldariel

2011-11-14, 03:05 PM

Edit: Also, for surviving searing spell, I recommend investigating luck feats. There's one that, 1/day prevents death by hp damage. I'm aware this is only a temporary solution, but what's important is that it disguises the presence of the weakness while the wizard is testing your defenses.

There's always Immortal Fortitude (~+40 Fort-save and Immunity to Fire = hard for a single Searing Spell to be threatening; Twins and such would obviously get handled separately; would require Counter Stance for truly reliable coverage though), Deathless Frenzy and Loyalty Beyond Death. The latter is probably unfeasible due to the massive level investment but both of the formers are pretty interesting.

Nohwl

2011-11-14, 03:30 PM

Also, the feat I can't recall the name of that lets me spont cast int mod # of spells.

i think that feat is called uncanny forethought.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 03:52 PM

It says it in the feat's name: Pierce Magical Concealment.

You know, there's a Stone Dragon Maneuver called Adamantine Bones. Does that mean that when you use it, your bones become adamantine?

Oh yeah, that's right. The name of an ability/feat/spell/what-have-you has precisely ZERO bearing on its function. That's covered by the rule text below it.

After all, if we were to apply this logic, anyone using Move Silently would be unable to be heard, no matter what. After all, it's SILENTLY, right?

Anyone using the Dodge feat avoids all blows. After all, they wouldn't be dodging if they were hit, right?

Why even bother with this feat? All you need is the prerequisite, Mage Slayer. Once you have that, you automatically slay mages, right?

Are we done trying to justify using ability names to try to make up rules now? It's getting quite old. Mountain Avalanche doesn't actually make avalanches, Blood in the Water doesn't have anything to do with water, and Claw at the Moon doesn't actually involve striking celestial objects. Those abilities are governed by the rules text for the ability, not the name....

Just like every feat, spell, class ability, skill, or other ability. In this case, it's not your gaze piercing that concealment. It's your weapon. You could certainly house rule what you're saying, in your game... But it has as much rule support as saying that the Dancing Mongoose maneuver improves your ability to use the perform skill.

dextercorvia

2011-11-14, 04:21 PM

You know, there's a Stone Dragon Maneuver called Adamantine Bones. Does that mean that when you use it, your bones become adamantine?

Oh yeah, that's right. The name of an ability/feat/spell/what-have-you has precisely ZERO bearing on its function. That's covered by the rule text below it.

After all, if we were to apply this logic, anyone using Move Silently would be unable to be heard, no matter what. After all, it's SILENTLY, right?

Anyone using the Dodge feat avoids all blows. After all, they wouldn't be dodging if they were hit, right?

Why even bother with this feat? All you need is the prerequisite, Mage Slayer. Once you have that, you automatically slay mages, right?

Are we done trying to justify using ability names to try to make up rules now? It's getting quite old. Mountain Avalanche doesn't actually make avalanches, Blood in the Water doesn't have anything to do with water, and Claw at the Moon doesn't actually involve striking celestial objects. Those abilities are governed by the rules text for the ability, not the name....

Just like every feat, spell, class ability, skill, or other ability. In this case, it's not your gaze piercing that concealment. It's your weapon. You could certainly house rule what you're saying, in your game... But it has as much rule support as saying that the Dancing Mongoose maneuver improves your ability to use the perform skill.

Just sharing some words of wisdom.

Sarcasm will not engender good communication.

Let's try to keep it civil.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-14, 04:28 PM

Those abilities are governed by the rules text for the ability, not the name....
Your argument is predicated on separating the numerical portion of miss chance in that rules text from any other properties of miss chance. Pierce Magical Concealment allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells. The definition of the term does not even use numbers.
miss chance

The possibility that a successful attack roll misses anyway because of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location. The miss chance from Obscuring Mist is described in both percentages and phrases which remind you of the other characteristics of that miss chance.
A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
total concealment

Attacks against a target with total concealment have a 50% miss chance. Total concealment blocks line of sight. The phrasing in Obscuring Mist is just a reminder of the other (non-numerical) miss chance property of total concealment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_totalconcealment&alpha=T). This is not a separate characteristic of the spell against which Pierce Magical Concealment offers no benefit. It is just another property of the miss chance (of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location) which the feat disregards. You are not disregarding the miss chance granted by Obscuring Mist if you retain a major characteristic of the total concealment miss chance which is granted by that spell. Retaining uncertainty about the target's location, as you posit, is disallowed (by the definition) when you disregard the miss chance, exactly as stated in the rules text for the feat.

Ziegander

2011-11-14, 05:14 PM

This is not a separate characteristic of the spell against which Pierce Magical Concealment offers no benefit. It is just another property of the miss chance (of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location) which the feat disregards.

You have that backwards. The miss chance is just one property of concealment. Just because a subject with concealment always has a miss chance does not mean that taking away their miss chance takes away their concealment.

Retaining uncertainty about the target's location, as you posit, is disallowed (by the definition) when you disregard the miss chance, exactly as stated in the rules text for the feat.

No, that is not explicitly stated. The phrase, "and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fi ll a corridor with illusory fire and smoke)," can mean a number of different things (such as maybe it allows you to disregard such spells entirely, maybe it allows you to disregard only the miss chance, maybe it allows you to disregard any concealment granted by the spell and only the concealment, etc) and cannot be construed to say exactly anything.

kulosle

2011-11-14, 05:20 PM

enough with the PMC argument. let a DM decide, or who ever is moderating the fight. it is simply repeating itself now.

as far as the posted wizard build i do believe that to look exactly like the generic wizard build and i do think this build would beat it. i would say that i forgot that people took specialist wizard to 5th level any more, master specialist pretty much made that obsolete.

i would like to discuss WBLmancy for a bit. an interesting point of the weird stone. it may be too expensive to buy but i can see a character making it, but that means the wizard is less optimized for pvp. i don't think someone would cripple their WBLmancy. also don't wizards have to have a lot of gold left over for spells. i think a warrior definitely has the upper hand on that end. that is if he doesn't ruin it by taking VoP.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 05:21 PM

Your argument is predicated on separating the numerical portion of miss chance in that rules text from any other properties of miss chance. Pierce Magical Concealment allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells. The definition of the term does not even use numbers. The miss chance from Obscuring Mist is described in both percentages and phrases which remind you of the other characteristics of that miss chance. The phrasing in Obscuring Mist is just a reminder of the other (non-numerical) miss chance property of total concealment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_totalconcealment&alpha=T). This is not a separate characteristic of the spell against which Pierce Magical Concealment offers no benefit. It is just another property of the miss chance (of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location) which the feat disregards. You are not disregarding the miss chance granted by Obscuring Mist if you retain a major characteristic of the total concealment miss chance which is granted by that spell. Retaining uncertainty about the target's location, as you posit, is disallowed (by the definition) when you disregard the miss chance, exactly as stated in the rules text for the feat.
No, my argument is predicated on the rules for miss chance. You are using a glossary definition, which is not primary source.

The possibility that a successful attack roll misses anyway because of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location.
Emphasis mine.

A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
This is a miss chance. Why? Because it says it is.

Concealment Miss Chance

Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment.
This is a miss chance. Why? Because it says it is.
By your logic, PMC lets you see invisible creatures, automatically see through illusions, see through conjured shrubs, see through a Web spell, and ignore the effects of a Blindness spell (because it imposes total concealment on everything).

All despite a lack of even a single shred of rules supporting your view. Instead, you try to stretch a definition by justifying that any condition in which you are unaware of your attacker's position qualifies.

Your argument would also mean that this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) is ignored, because if they hide successfully with it, you are uncertain of their position due to magic.

It argues that you disregard the bonus from thus spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/catsGrace.htm) because it increases the ability to hide, which could make you uncertain of position.

No. The primary source for miss chance DOES reference what a miss chance is.

total concealment: Attacks against a target with total concealment have a 50% miss chance. Total concealment blocks line of sight. See concealment.

You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck.

Other attacks do not have a miss chance. They just miss, because you aimed them nowhere near the target. There are no "other characteristics". If you are not rolling percentile dice, it is not a concealment miss chance, by the rules governing concealment chances, quoted above. PERIOD.

Miss chance is explicitly called out when it applies. You are using general english to try to overapply the phrase.

Repeating invalid arguments does not make them valid. This is unsound. Your argument on the name is unsound. The only thing that is sound is the text of the ability, and it does not mention one word about seeing through concealment. It only states that your attacks disregard a miss chance. That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever when you are not attacking, just as Item creation feats do nothing when you're not creating items.

Glossary definitions are always superceded by the rules entry in the primary source. I have cited that entry. It contradicts you. Therefore, if we begin with the assumption that the rules are correct, we must arrive at the conclusion that you are not.

tyckspoon

2011-11-14, 05:35 PM

as far as the posted wizard build i do believe that to look exactly like the generic wizard build and i do think this build would beat it. i would say that i forgot that people took specialist wizard to 5th level any more, master specialist pretty much made that obsolete.

Really? Master Specialist isn't all that good if you're jumping out into PrCs at 5 anyway; you only get 2 levels of it unless you're doing early entry, in which case you can get 3. It's a good option if you're a specialist in a school where you want Spell Focus anyway, but if not the extra bonus feat at Wizard 5 is much more generally useful. It might be worth trying to slide in for the build Tyndmyr posted because Greater Spell Focus is a prereq for Initiate and Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is beneficial to Incantatrix, but unless you go early entry I don't know if it's worth giving up a level in either of the other two more powerful PrCs.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-14, 05:40 PM

Retaining uncertainty about the target's location, as you posit, is disallowed (by the definition) when you disregard the miss chance, exactly as stated in the rules text for the feat.

No, that is not explicitly stated.
It's right there in the rules text:

Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells
miss chance

The possibility that a successful attack roll misses anyway because of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location. If you disregard the miss chance, you disregard the possibility that a successful attack roll misses anyway because you were uncertain about the target's location. If you cannot see which square the target is in, you are obviously uncertain about the target's location. Thus an attack roll which would beat the target's AC, but would be aimed at the wrong square because of an effect of a spell which creates the chance of missing in this fashion, is indeed what Pierce Magical Concealment says it overcomes.

The definition does not restrict miss chance to just miss percentage. Miss percentage is only the on-target listed numerical part of miss chance. Miss chance also includes the off-target 41/42 chance (42 squares in a 20' radius) of missing the target square in Obscuring Mist; that's also part of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location due to that spell.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 06:01 PM

The definition does not restrict miss chance to just miss percentage. Miss percentage is only the on-target listed numerical part of miss chance. Miss chance also includes the off-target 41/42 chance (42 squares in a 20' radius) of missing the target square in Obscuring Mist; that's also part of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location due to that spell.

The possibility that a successful attack roll misses anyway because of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location.
An target for an attack is chosen before the roll is made. At this point, the attack is not "successful", because it is not yet made.

Therefore, this is not a possibility that a successful attack roll misses, because, at the time of aiming, the roll isn't made. (it can't be successful, if the success has not yet been determined)

Then you make the roll. Now you have a roll that can be successful. From here on out, inaccuracy over the uncertainty about a location can be described as a miss chance.

From the PHB:
Besides cover, another way to avoid attacks is to make it hard for
opponents to know where you are. Concealment encompasses all
circumstances where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but
where something interferes with an attacker’s accuracy.
Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a chance that
the attacker missed because of the concealment.
So here's the steps of an attack.

Attack Rolls

An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent.
1) Choose the opponent you are attacking.
2) Make an attack roll.
3) If that roll is successful, resolve miss chance, if applicable (since miss chance only applies to successful attacks).
4) Resolve effects of the attack.

Miss chance doesn't apply before step 3. You're trying to invoke it before a roll is made, which, by definition, means that it's before the roll is successful. In other words, miss chance is the LAST thing you resolve. Targeting is the FIRST. Therefore, targeting cannot be miss chance.

Which means you are invoking it in violation of the rules.

Curmudgeon

2011-11-14, 06:05 PM

No, my argument is predicated on the rules for miss chance. You are using a glossary definition, which is not primary source.
Per Wizards of the Coast's official rule on this matter, it certainly is a primary source rule.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. It's not a table entry. It's not a short description in the beginning of the spells chapter. The D&D Glossary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glossary) ("a list of terms in a special subject, field, or area of usage, with accompanying definitions (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/definitions)" ("the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a phrase")) entry for "miss chance" appears on page 310 of Player's Handbook, the primary source for the rules for playing the game.

There's nothing in this official rule which says official Glossary entries are any less relevant than other parts of the rule text. It's a primary source, and "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a phrase" in the source for "all the rules for playing the game" is indeed a rule specification.

You can, of course, introduce a house rule for your games which gives the Glossary lower status than other parts of the Player's Handbook. That's just not the way Wizards of the Coast wrote their rules.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 06:34 PM

Per Wizards of the Coast's official rule on this matter, it certainly is a primary source rule. It's not a table entry. It's not a short description in the beginning of the spells chapter. The D&D Glossary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glossary) ("a list of terms in a special subject, field, or area of usage, with accompanying definitions (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/definitions)" ("the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a phrase")) entry for "miss chance" appears on page 310 of Player's Handbook, the primary source for the rules for playing the game.

There's nothing in this official rule which says official Glossary entries are any less relevant than other parts of the rule text. It's a primary source, and "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a phrase" in the source for "all the rules for playing the game" is indeed a rule specification.

You can, of course, introduce a house rule for your games which gives the Glossary lower status than other parts of the Player's Handbook. That's just not the way Wizards of the Coast wrote their rules.
And the glossary states that the attack roll must be successful before any uncertainty about location can be considered a miss chance.

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't roll my attack roll before declaring my target, and neither do the rules.

Premise 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theCoreMechanic): The Core Mechanic for any action which has a chance for failure requires three things. These things are the rolling of a d20, followed by the addition of relevant modifiers, and finally comparing that to a target number that is known prior to the roll being made (though not necessarily known by the player; DM's can make the comparison for rolls where the player is not entitled to know the DC).

Premise 2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll): For an attack, the d20 roll is the rolling of the d20, the attack bonus and other modifiers are the relevant modifiers, and the known target number is the AC of the target. (extension of Premise 1)

Premise 3: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) An attack is considered successful if, and only if, the above steps are followed, and the modified roll equals or beats the target's armor class (or the d20 yields a result of '20', before modifiers).

Premise 4: Miss chance, by the Glossary you just advocated, requires 2 components (uncertainty to the target's location and a successful attack roll).

Premise 5: At the time a target is declared, if that target is more than 5 feet away, inside obscuring mist, that character benefits from total concealment. This creates uncertainty to the target's location.

Premise 6: At the time a target is declared, the steps in premise 2 have not been fully followed. (Premise 1, Premise 2)

Conclusion 1: At the time target is declared, an attack is neither a successful attack or a failed attack. (premise 3, premise 6)

Conclusion 2: Uncertainty to a target's location only qualifies as a miss chance if the attack is successful. (premise 4)

Final Conclusion: Since targeting always occurs prior to determining success of an attack, it cannot be a chance that a successful attack misses. Rather, it is the chance that an attack whose success has not yet been determined cannot hit (subtle difference, but important, in this case). Therefore, it does not meet all the qualifications required to be a miss chance. (Premise 4, Premise 6, Conclusion 2)

And since it's not a miss chance, PMC does precisely nothing to negate it.

Care to refute any of the premises contained?

Curmudgeon

2011-11-14, 06:42 PM

And the glossary states that the attack roll must be successful before any uncertainty about location can be considered a miss chance.
I don't see that highlighted word in the definition (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_misschance&alpha=M). Where were you looking?

The rules don't require any particular order for checking attack roll or miss chance first. In fact, Rules Compendium suggests (but does not require) that you check for miss chance first (page 32). Regardless, the order generally doesn't matter. You've got to be successful in both overcoming AC and overcoming miss chance to hit.

candycorn

2011-11-14, 06:58 PM

I don't see that highlighted word in the definition (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_misschance&alpha=M). Where were you looking?At the core rules. You don't roll the dice, then choose your target. Else you'd have situations like this:

DM: You see 3 kobolds and an ogre. The kobolds are sickly, wearing nothing, and holding rusty daggers. The ogre is clad in a breastplate, with a tower shield readied, and wielding a longsword. You have the surprise round.
Archer: I attack! <rolls a 12> And I pick the kobold as the target!
Archer 2: I attack too! <rolls a natural 20, followed by a 25> And I target the ogre!
Would you care to dispute that targets must be chosen before the roll is made? I suspect you'll lose more than a little credibility if you do.

The rules don't require any particular order for checking attack roll or miss chance first.Yes, they DO.

If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck.HERE. Miss chance rolls must only be made if the attacker hits. That's the RULES.

In fact, Rules Compendium suggests (but does not require) that you check for miss chance first (page 32).That is specifically called out as a VARIANT.

Per DMG, page 4, variants are an alteration of the rules. It goes on to say that anything that is not a variant apply to the baseline D&D campaign.

This argument is as accurate as assuming Gestalt is the default play style, or that bell curve rolls are the normal.

Regardless, the order generally doesn't matter.Cite rule that shows this? I've gone to quite a bit of trouble to show what the game definition of a successful attack is (and that miss chance percentile rolls are only made if the attacker hits), and what must be done in the event of concealment for such an attack. I'd appreciate a BIT more than, "oh, those rules, they don't really matter". Please. Indulge me with a bit of RAW to back up your opinion. I would really appreciate it.

You've got to be successful in both overcoming AC and overcoming miss chance to hit.You are correct. However, an attack is deemed successful if the rules for making an attack (listed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll)) yield a result of hit. IF that happens, and the defender has concealment, THEN the defender rolls a concealment miss chance (listed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment)).

These are the RULES. If you're going to say that they don't matter, then show me the RULES that say they don't.