White Raven Charges + Pounce?

[Yorae]

How do the white raven charge maneuvers from ToB (all some flavor of "if your charge attack hits, it deals +X damage") interact with pounce?

[skycycle blues]

I don't see any reason why that bonus wouldn't apply to all attacks made with the pounce.

[Hyfigh]

I agree that pounce would apply. Pounce functions off of a charge. Though the charge is triggered due to the manuever, it is still a charge all the same. Meeting the charge requirement would trigger the pounce. Since it adds damage to the charge, and you are full attacking, you should have that damage added to each attack...

[JaronK]

Don't Maneuvers have a special thing that makes them apply to only one attack?

I'd say you don't get the bonus on the subsequent attacks. So Battle Leader's Charge + Pounce gives you a full attack and no AoOs on the charge, and the first attack gets +10 damage. Still pretty brutal.

Though I'd have to look at the wording. The maneuver itself might limit you to a single attack (just like how a normal maneuver limits you to a single attack even when you could have full attacked).

JaronK

[Ziegander]

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

I take that to mean that a creature with Pounce makes a charge attack, which is a full round action in which the creature makes a single attack at +2 to hit, then makes a full attack after the charge attack without the +2 to hit.

That reading would imply that the attacks made as part of the full attack that follows the charge attack are not themselves charge attacks, which would indicate that they do not get the boost from White Raven maneuvers (or from ubercharging tactics for that matter, hmph).

[JaronK]

Note that Pounce is written differently in a number of books. Some have the wording as above (make a charge attack, then full attack) and others have a different wording (when you charge, full attack instead of a single attack). So it does depend on where you got pounce from. I forget which wording Lion Totem Barbarian uses, and I think the latter is what Pouncing Charge uses.

JaronK

[Ziegander]

Note that Pounce is written differently in a number of books. Some have the wording as above (make a charge attack, then full attack) and others have a different wording (when you charge, full attack instead of a single attack). So it does depend on where you got pounce from. I forget which wording Lion Totem Barbarian uses, and I think the latter is what Pouncing Charge uses.

JaronK

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, know if WotC provided a "final" ruling on that in the Rules Compendium?

[gkathellar]

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, know if WotC provided a "final" ruling on that in the Rules Compendium?


When a creature that has this extraordinary special attack
charges, it can still make a full attack even if it charged while
restricted to a single action. All its attacks receive the +2 bonus
on attack rolls gained from charging. If it uses its attacks to
successfully start a grapple, and it has the rake ability, it can
also make rake attacks.

You're welcome.

[JaronK]

Annoyingly, it's unclear as to whether that ruling would by RAW apply to things like "Pouncing Charge" which aren't explicitly Pounce and yet obviously should work like that. At least the intent seems clear there (the RC should trump).

JaronK

[Daftendirekt]

Don't Maneuvers have a special thing that makes them apply to only one attack?

Nah. Most do say "make a single melee attack..." like Sapphire Nightmare Blade or many others. But if the maneuver just says charge attack...a charge is a charge, whether it's a normal one or a pounce. So, yeah, I'd also say that bonuses would apply to every attack in a pounce.

Not that pounce-charging needed a buff :smalleek:

[darkdragoon]

War Master's Charge and friends say something to the effect of "As part of this maneuver, you charge. If your charge attack hits, blah blah." This triggers pounce, and since those attacks are counted as charge attacks, the +10 damage should count for each hit, I would think.

Pouncing Charge on the other hand is "you charge, but make a full attack." It does mention that the charge bonus applies to all your attacks though.

[Yorae]

When a creature that has this extraordinary special attack
charges, it can still make a full attack even if it charged while
restricted to a single action. All its attacks receive the +2 bonus
on attack rolls gained from charging. If it uses its attacks to
successfully start a grapple, and it has the rake ability, it can
also make rake attacks.


You're welcome.

Since all the attacks get the +2 from the charge (making them "charge attacks"), which is normally applied to a single attack, I think I'm more willing to accept that the additional damage is also applied to each attack of a pounce.

[Akal Saris]

I'd agree that based on a typical reading of the abilities, Pounce would apply the +10 (or +50, etc) damage to each attack.

As a DM, I would house-rule it to only apply to the first attack, unless the party was surprisingly high-powered.

[Keld Denar]

When a creature that has this extraordinary special attack charges, it can still make a full attack even if it charged while restricted to a single action. All its attacks receive the +2 bonus on attack rolls gained from charging. If it uses its attacks to successfully start a grapple, and it has the rake ability, it can also make rake attacks.

Which is funny, because:


A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

So...if it pounces, it can start a grapple and rake, but it can't rake because it just started the grapple.

Divide by cucumber error!

[JaronK]

I assume the RC was supposed to trump there too, thus randomly allowing raking after a grapple for no real reason (despite it not being legal before).

For a document that was supposed to clarify rules, it sure didn't help much...

JaronK

[Lateral]

I thought that if you had Pounce, that just allowed you to attack with your rakes as well. Like, it gave you another way to utilize your rake attacks.

[Urpriest]

I assume the RC was supposed to trump there too, thus randomly allowing raking after a grapple for no real reason (despite it not being legal before).

For a document that was supposed to clarify rules, it sure didn't help much...

JaronK

It was legal, you just raked before the grapple because you could rake either on a pounce or from a grapple. With that RC ruling, it looks like they meant the rakes on a charge to only show up when you manage to grapple.