Vindicaire V. Psyker, or Sniping Wizards

[Little Brother]

Okay, got my rough build down:

First build, complete with rambling notes
Dark Raptoran Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Targeteer Fighter 2/Ranger 6/Bard 3/WF Barbarian 1/Cragtop Archer 2/*SOMETHING 1* Had it, lost it through a crash, rebuilding from memory. Might want to stick another level of Bard in there. Might want to make it Feat Rogue for the option of Nemesis, if I wanna be a goodie-two-shoes.

17 BAB, assuming fractional

Feats are Darkstalker, Knowledge Devotion, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Far Shot, Wild Cohort, Mountain Warrior, Woodland Archery.

Gear: Intelligent +6 Belt of Magnificence (Stupid and with Blessing) 202k
Intelligent Vest of Legend 18k
Intelligent Weirdstone
Intelligent Splitting Energy Footbow of Songs if my math is right, 84930
Continuous AMF(198k)
And an Intelligent +5 Hide item 4500
Other stuff as you want, I'm out of ideas. Plus, I only have 500 GP left. I didn't bother with defense, because if I'm caught, I'm dead, so why bother?
Base stats: 10/16/12/14/10/14, Dex goes to twenty through levels.
Intelligent items are constructs, and are immune to AMF.

Now, this build only works at not mid-day.
Skills are maxed Hide, move silently, spot, then Knowledge Local and Listen. I think I can max them, or at least almost, so eh.
Favored enemy Arcanist and Humanoid(Human)
So, analysis: A full attack gives me 5 attacks, 6 in a rage. The -2 is countered by the favored enemy.

So, that comes out to, on the first round, I'm gonna use 6 bardic musics, one on each shot, so that's +Charisma, so my attacks are 32/32/32/27/22/17 twice. Not good, but the wizard is flat-footed. Alternatively, I could use an ability of the Energy Bow to power attack with it, for 15/15/15/10/5/0 twice. The wizard is flat-footed, so either way...

Assuming no power attack, you're going to be looking at Charisma from the Bow of Songs, plus 1.5 times Dex(Footbow and Targeteer) each. Again, not much, but it should be enough. 12 x (7+12+5+2+2)=336. 36 more if you count flying as higher ground. Dead wizard. I don't think I need the 204 extra damage from Power Attack. This is all force damage, by the way. I admit, I do only have a +18 initiative, so I might not win. My hide score is only 47(22+5+5+8+5+2) with a masterwork tool, but it works. I'd like it higher, but eh, whatever.

I could have gone Dragonborn Whisper Gnome, but I don't know how Dragonborn interact with skill bonuses and such, so whatever.

So, yeah. And the pet is there to distract the wizard for a round or two, just in case.

Not ideal, this is a rough draft, I've been busy and distracted, so check my work, poke holes. Have fun shredding it.
Number two:
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Wyrm of War
Stats: 6->12/(18)30->36/10->16/11->17/19->25/11->17
WF Barbarian 1/Targeteer Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Deepwood Sniper 10/Craptop Archer 2/Binder 1/XX 2

Feats:
Flaw 1:Dragonwrought
Flaw 2: EWP: Footbow
1:PBS
3:Far Shot
4:Weapon Focus:Footbow
Fighter Features: Sniper, Arrow Swarm
6:Woodland Archer
8:Precise Shot
9:Mountain Warrior
12:Manyshot(?)
12:Improved Rapidshot(?)
15:?
16:?
18:Improved Binding
20:Distance Shot/(something less cheesy, maybe?)

If not going for Distance Shot, take the last two levels in fighter and nab Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery.

Okay, Items: +5 Dragonbone Splitting Distance Energy Footbow(220K~)
Dexterity Gloves +6(36k)
Strength Belt+6(36K)
Periapt of Wisdom+6(36k)
Weirdstone(250k)
+5 book of Dexterity137.5K
1 repositioned Boots of Battle(18K)
Feathered Wings (10k)

So, analysis: a full attack is 16 attacks(4 from BAB, 1 from WF, 1 from Rapid Shot, and 2 from Arrow Swarm, all doubled from splitting). So, if I am fully power attacking, my attack bonus is 12/12/12/12/12/12/12/12/7/7/2/2/-3/-3, but each time I miss I get a +4 to attack. My damage on each arrow is 2d6+19+18+5, or a mere 49 per shot, but that adds up. The belt of battle lets me do it again, retaining the bonuses from Woodland Archer, I believe.

Now, on to range. The range is 110+20(Dragonbone)+100(Deepwood Sniper), or a 230. When adding multipliers you get 575 range increment, for a total range of a mere 8625 feet, or 1.6 miles. If half hit in the first volley and 3/4 in the second, which is reasonable, IMO, we're looking at 980 damage, dead Big T level. This is against a Wizard, which is now a pincushion.

Now let's see against the Big T. With a flat-footed AC of 32, I am going to miss the first three~, plus maybe two-ish more, I think but I should be practically unable to miss with the second volley, and still kill it. I can't wish it dead, but no non-caster can, I consider keeping it low enough for someone to go fetch a wizard to be plenty.

I think it's gonna look like that against anything. I'm pretty damned sure I'd die to a wyrm/great wyrm, but eh, whatever. If it's dumb enough not to teleport away, I'd be fine. Eventually, my bonuses would be able to outmatch the massive AC.

Thoughts? Ways to improve? Weaknesses(NOT TO SCHRODINGER)?

[TravelLog]

1. Does the wizard know you are coming? If so, how much prep time do they have?
2. What do you do in the event of wards or in general, getting to the wizard?

[Little Brother]

1. Does the wizard know you are coming? If so, how much prep time do they have?They can't scry me, so I don't know how a paranoid wizard could do it. You tell me.

2. What do you do in the event of wards or in general, getting to the wizard?Typical wizard, going by this board's definition. This swas in response to that Warrior v. Wizard thing.

[Weezer]

The problem with this is that a sufficiently high level wizard could do the typical foresight + celerity + time stop + teleport away combo that negates all your prep. And that's without things like Craft Contingent Spell with teleportation contingencies set to "attacked while flatfooted"

[Flickerdart]

Bow of Songs is a swift action to activate, so you're only getting that +CHA to a single attack.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Oooh, Cragtop archer. That brings back memories. If you get to the point where you can reasonably spot an enemy and then actually hit them, breaking mach three, let me know.:smallamused:

That said, the ambiguity of general divination buff spells in play at this level can just say something to the effect of "I know." The fact that they last all day and allow to said caster to lead easily into celerity to teleport away, if nothing else, can be hard to say.

This isn't entirely fair to your efforts, naturally, as I'm not throwing down a build. For more info on X Versus Wizard: the final showdown, check for the old Test of Spite builds, especially Doc Roc's crazier things in the monkening bought.

[Little Brother]

Bow of Songs is a swift action to activate, so you're only getting that +CHA to a single attack.Huh, so it is. I should replace that with something more cost-efficient, then. Might as well drop the Bard levels for something, too.

Oooh, Cragtop archer. That brings back memories. If you get to the point where you can reasonably spot an enemy and then actually hit them, breaking mach three, let me know.:smallamused:Okay, got nothing better to do. I'll get back to you. Do you want volley fire, or a single shot?

EDIT:Okay, I lied. To get it going at mach 3, the person needs to be 200095 feet away. I can't get my spot check that high without truly immense cheese, so much that it would poison the thread with the fumes.

After that, getting the range is child's play.

That said, the ambiguity of general divination buff spells in play at this level can just say something to the effect of "I know." The fact that they last all day and allow to said caster to lead easily into celerity to teleport away, if nothing else, can be hard to say.Well, I am in an AMF, and you can't scry or teleport within 6 miles of me, so I'm about as well protected as you can be without mind blank.

This isn't entirely fair to your efforts, naturally, as I'm not throwing down a build. For more info on X Versus Wizard: the final showdown, check for the old Test of Spite builds, especially Doc Roc's crazier things in the monkening bought.Um, I don't understand what you're saying.

What's the range for teleport? How can I shut it down. I have all the short range stuff blocked, but anything with a range of 6+ miles is gonna get away.

[Flickerdart]

If you replace the Bard levels and the free level with Paladin, and have a spare feat slot, you can pick up Power Attack and Divine Might (as a bonus feat instead of spells), and make up for the CHA-to-damage loss that way.

[Little Brother]

If you replace the Bard levels and the free level with Paladin, and have a spare feat slot, you can pick up Power Attack and Divine Might (as a bonus feat instead of spells), and make up for the CHA-to-damage loss that way.Power Attack doesn't work with bows, I have to use the energy bow for anything close.

Also, Divine Might is an SU effect, doesn't work in an AMF. Can't use it unless you can tell me how you can get one that turns off and on at will.

[Flickerdart]

Power Attack doesn't work with bows, I have to use the energy bow for anything close.

Also, Divine Might is an SU effect, doesn't work in an AMF. Can't use it unless you can tell me how you can get one that turns off and on at will.
PA is just a prerequisite for Divine Might, so you wouldn't be using it. AMF is a problem though; can you put it on an intelligent item, and tell it to toggle it? How are you getting it, anyway?

[Little Brother]

PA is just a prerequisite for Divine Might, so you wouldn't be using it. AMF is a problem though; can you put it on an intelligent item, and tell it to toggle it? How are you getting it, anyway?A continuous magic item. Costs a lot, but needed. I could make it intelligent, that's an idea. Does being a construct make you immune to Disjunction? I don't think so, but it's worth asking.

I just couldn't fit in RSB, unfortunately.

[Flickerdart]

Disjunction just hits "magical effects and items", and makes no mention of constructs.

[Tokuhara]

Question:

I remember seeing a Ranged Power Attack feat (Cannot remember where). Could something like that be a replacement for PA in Divine Might?

[vitkiraven]

Little Brother:
A few years ago in a game I played in, I had an arrow that ended an encounter with a Lich, first round (Totally Non Magical). If you want I can PM you the work up for it. It's not that expensive to build, and who knows, it might even work on a regular wizard.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

EDIT:Okay, I lied. To get it going at mach 3, the person needs to be 200095 feet away. I can't get my spot check that high without truly immense cheese, so much that it would poison the thread with the fumes.

I'll see if I can't find a link, but back on the old 339, there was a thread about using Cragtop Archer to break the speed of sound. Through various feats, magic weapon properties, special bows with insanely long range increments (I think pre-magic/feats, the range increment was over 200 ft?), the total distance one could shoot was enough to break mach 3 (assuming a constant speed of sound and that the arrow goes from point A to point B in 6 seconds).


After that, getting the range is child's play.
Well, I am in an AMF, and you can't scry or teleport within 6 miles of me, so I'm about as well protected as you can be without mind blank.
Um, I don't understand what you're saying.

I'd need to check the exact wording on the no-teleport thing you are using, but there are ways to get around it (either via maneuver granting items or something else). This isn't to say that the wizard will immediately win, just that he won't die in the volley that is your sniper's shot.


What's the range for teleport? How can I shut it down. I have all the short range stuff blocked, but anything with a range of 6+ miles is gonna get away.

Well, as per the spell, its range is 100 miles per CL. That's probably blocked. Shadow Jaunt (and other maneuvers) are shorter, but nonmagical teleportation effects are still capable of screwing with line of sight.

With that out of the way, I bring you a gift! Hank's Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) allowing you to power attack with magic.

[Little Brother]

Disjunction just hits "magical effects and items", and makes no mention of constructs.So intelligent magic items are immune to disjunction? Awesome!

Question:

I remember seeing a Ranged Power Attack feat (Cannot remember where). Could something like that be a replacement for PA in Divine Might?PF only

I'll see if I can't find a link, but back on the old 339, there was a thread about using Cragtop Archer to break the speed of sound. Through various feats, magic weapon properties, special bows with insanely long range increments (I think pre-magic/feats, the range increment was over 200 ft?), the total distance one could shoot was enough to break mach 3 (assuming a constant speed of sound and that the arrow goes from point A to point B in 6 seconds).To break the speed of sound, 6700 feet in one round. 20095~ for mach 3. Range is depressingly easy, I have at least two ways to top the needed range, I just can't get the spot modifier? Can you use a familiar as a spotter?

I'd need to check the exact wording on the no-teleport thing you are using, but there are ways to get around it (either via maneuver granting items or something else). This isn't to say that the wizard will immediately win, just that he won't die in the volley that is your sniper's shot.???

I know if I don't win straight up, first round, I lose. He gets away, I guess.

Well, as per the spell, its range is 100 miles per CL. That's probably blocked. Shadow Jaunt (and other maneuvers) are shorter, but nonmagical teleportation effects are still capable of screwing with line of sight.Crap, I gotta get another way around it.

And how is Shadow Jaunt non-magical?

With that out of the way, I bring you a gift! Hank's Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) allowing you to power attack with magic.I know, that's the Energy Bow part of my bow was. Thanks, though!

[JaronK]

Easiest way to do long range spotting is a Binder dip + Improved Binding for Malphas. The bird spots for you, and then you destroy enemies from miles away. That also gives you Poison Use, so combo it with Hidden Talent and summon up plenty of Sinmaker's Surprise to add to the punch of your shots.

JaronK

[BlackestOfMages]

shadow jaunt is a manouvre, so an extrodinary ability, not a spell or spell-like ability :smallsmile:

[Little Brother]

Easiest way to do long range spotting is a Binder dip + Improved Binding for Malphas. The bird spots for you, and then you destroy enemies from miles away. That also gives you Poison Use, so combo it with Hidden Talent and summon up plenty of Sinmaker's Surprise to add to the punch of your shots.

JaronKOhh, I like this. Thank you. I'll be rebuilding this guy tonight, then.

[Flickerdart]

shadow jaunt is a manouvre, so an extrodinary ability, not a spell or spell-like ability :smallsmile:
Nope - Shadow Jaunt and all similar maneuvers, just like the ones that deal fire damage, are supernatural.

[marcielle]

I never understood how a contingent spell can get you out of AMF. I mean since contingency is completely magical, even it recognizing anything in the first place is a magical effect. Come to think of it, divinition should not register you if you are in an AMF at time of casting, simply because it is a magical effect. It should merely inform the wizard of the state reality would have been if you had not existed or at least not be able to accurately say anything about you. Maybe it's just me, but firmly believe ANTIMAGIC field ought to stop most forms of magic outright.

Anyway, heres something that might help if the Wizard steps out into the open. Falling is instantaneous, IIRC. You can stop and resume flight as a free action because you have ex flight. DnD doesn't have proper momentum physics. Fly so far above a wizard ther's no chance of him spotting you. Ready an action to start flying again once Wizard is in your AMF field. Stop flying. You now have a wizard within your AMF and a full round to do as you please.

He might have a contingency against threats getting within a certain distance but how does the contingency magically recognize that you exist if you are in an AMF?

[Flickerdart]

He might have a contingency against threats getting within a certain distance but how does the contingency magically recognize that you exist if you are in an AMF?
Hat trick.

[marcielle]

I do not comprehend. Please elucidate.

[Weezer]

I do not comprehend. Please elucidate.

You make a cone out of lead large enough to cover you completely while you're standing, then cast shrink item on it so it's hat sized. Wear it on your head and whenever you enter a AMF it grows to its normal size, covering you and blocking line of effect for the AMF. Now you're free to teleport away or whatever you want, unaffected by the AMF.

[Daftendirekt]

Nope - Shadow Jaunt and all similar maneuvers, just like the ones that deal fire damage, are supernatural.

Nope. It never says that. Maneuvers that are supernatural are listed as such in the maneuver's text, and Shadow Stride/Jaunt/Blink all make no mention of being supernatural. They SHOULD be, but they aren't.

[marcielle]

You make a cone out of lead large enough to cover you completely while you're standing, then cast shrink item on it so it's hat sized. Wear it on your head and whenever you enter a AMF it grows to its normal size, covering you and blocking line of effect for the AMF. Now you're free to teleport away or whatever you want, unaffected by the AMF.

So you'd just have to drop till you are 1-2 feet off the ground. Cone then expands trapping wizard right next to you. In an AMF. At worst you are sharing a square with him and have to grapple until his d4 hp runs out.

[Daftendirekt]

So you'd just have to drop till you are 1-2 feet off the ground. Cone then expands trapping wizard right next to you. In an AMF. At worst you are sharing a square with him and have to grapple until his d4 hp runs out.

NOT in an AMF. That's why it's a LEAD cone. Lead blocks Antimagic Fields.

[marcielle]

Falling is instantaneous as I understand it. You reach the ground in a split second. If you fall into the Wizards square, then when the cone returns to normal size, it traps the wizard in the cone with you and your AMF. Effectively dooming the wizard.

[Flickerdart]

NOT in an AMF. That's why it's a LEAD cone. Lead blocks Antimagic Fields.
Nope. The hat can be made out of anything at all - an AMF is blocked by any surface with holes smaller than 1ft.

Also, the AMF would trigger before you entered the wizard's square, which means that you'd break your face on the lead cone.

[marcielle]

Also, the AMF would trigger before you entered the wizard's square...

Where's the speed the cone returns to normal size written? Not dismissing, just need to know where to find the actual rules for this if I am going to plot further. But how I understand it is because falling is instantaneous, it resolves before the cone even starts reacting to the AMF.

[Little Brother]

Nope. The hat can be made out of anything at all - an AMF is blocked by any surface with holes smaller than 1ft.

Also, the AMF would trigger before you entered the wizard's square, which means that you'd break your face on the lead cone.

In melee, go Combat Brute with Combat Reflexes and be Large with Improved Grab. You move up, cone drops, you destroy cone, when the wizard moves(Use Island of blades or something it is to stop 5' steps), grapple him. No freedom of movement=dead wizard. That's the only way beyond him flying to beat the cone(Though, with him flying, just be below him.

Wait a sec, the cone DOES have a hole bigger than 1 foot. Does it say that the hole can be blocked? If not, this trick only works for Halflings and vegans.

[Weezer]

@marcielle
The cone changes size instantaneously when it comes within the effect of the AMF. It's a suppressed spell, it goes from active to inactive the instant the AMF is encountered. So when you try to fall on it you will revert the cone back to it's full size and bounce off of it upon completing your fall.
And even if the DM adjudicates in your favor you are still in a itty bitty cone with a pissed of wizard. Game over.


In melee, go Combat Brute with Combat Reflexes and be Large with Improved Grab. You move up, cone drops, you destroy cone, when the wizard moves(Use Island of blades or something it is to stop 5' steps), grapple him. No freedom of movement=dead wizard. That's the only way beyond him flying to beat the cone(Though, with him flying, just be below him.

Wait a sec, the cone DOES have a hole bigger than 1 foot. Does it say that the hole can be blocked? If not, this trick only works for Halflings and vegans.

The point of the cone is to give the wizard the opportunity to act. And since the cone blocks the AMF he now has all of his spells/buffs up allowing him to do the foresight/celerity/teleport combo, or any other "just say no" combo.

A hole bigger than one foot between the source of the emanation and the subject. Also remember that the ground itself blocks line of effect, so if it's touching the ground it doesn't count as having a hole.

[Little Brother]

@marcielle
The cone changes size instantaneously when it comes within the effect of the AMF. It's a suppressed spell, it goes from active to inactive the instant the AMF is encountered. So when you try to fall on it you will revert the cone back to it's full size and bounce off of it upon completing your fall.
And even if the DM adjudicates in your favor you are still in a itty bitty cone with a pissed of wizard. Game over.

The point of the cone is to give the wizard the opportunity to act. And since the cone blocks the AMF he now has all of his spells/buffs up allowing him to do the foresight/celerity/teleport combo, or any other "just say no" combo.

A hole bigger than one foot between the source of the emanation and the subject. Also remember that the ground itself blocks line of effect, so if it's touching the ground it doesn't count as having a hole.No it isn't.


An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.It has no relation to the direction of the emanation. Just is it in range? Yep. Does it have a hole? Yep. It doesn't block line of effect, technically. Line of Sight, yes, but effect? Nope. Problem solved. So the tinfoil hat doesn't work.

[Weezer]

No it isn't.

It has no relation to the direction of the emanation. Just is it in range? Yep. Does it have a hole? Yep. It doesn't block line of effect, technically. Line of Sight, yes, but effect? Nope. Problem solved. So the tinfoil hat doesn't work.

Quote the whole passage, it disagrees with your reading.

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
(Emphasis mine)


You need a straight, unblocked path from the center of the emanation to the subject. I don't think dipping underneath a cone into the earth and then popping back up counts as either straight or unblocked.
Also, the cone and earth would be counted as one "barrier" seeing that they are flush.

[Little Brother]

Quote the whole passage, it disagrees with your reading.
(Emphasis mine)


You need a straight, unblocked path from the center of the emanation to the subject. I don't think dipping underneath a cone into the earth and then popping back up counts as either straight or unblocked.
Also, the cone and earth would be counted as one "barrier" seeing that they are flush.You need an unblocked path, yes, but with a hole, it is not considered blocking. It says nothing about the hole having to be in the right spot. Just if it has a large hole, it doesn't block it.

[Weezer]

You need an unblocked path, yes, but with a hole, it is not considered blocking. It says nothing about the hole having to be in the right spot. Just if it has a large hole, it doesn't block it.

But there is no hole, the ground is in the way. By your logic a wall with a door in it, when the door is closed, wouldn't block line of effect. That's an absurd reading of the text.

[marcielle]

Technically it works but that's Dragon Disciple levels of sillines were reaching. If you are looking for a RAW lophole, I still think the whole you reach your fall destination before shrunk item realises it is in an AMF should work.

@Weezer
The point is that THE WIZARD is in a itty bitty cone with an AMF, meaning he can't cast, his buffs are supressed and he is basically screwed to the point you don't even need to roll dice. He can't even escape from the cone cos he can't lift it, he being a wizard with no use for Str scores

[Little Brother]

But there is no hole, the ground is in the way. By your logic a wall with a door in it, when the door is closed, wouldn't block line of effect. That's an absurd reading of the text.It's the correct, no matter how absurd it is. There is a hole, it is covered, but it is still there. It being covered has nothing to do with the whole existing. And I would argue the door, as it is part of the wall, if attached, and so the gaps are cracks in the wall.

And it is just as absurd as a little thing of cloth blocking an AMF, or any other stupid wizard tricks.

Technically it works but that's Dragon Disciple levels of sillines were reaching. If you are looking for a RAW lophole, I still think the whole you reach your fall destination before shrunk item realises it is in an AMF should work.What about Dragon Disciple?

@Weezer
The point is that THE WIZARD is in a itty bitty cone with an AMF, meaning he can't cast, his buffs are supressed and he is basically screwed to the point you don't even need to roll dice. He can't even escape from the cone cos he can't lift it, he being a wizard with no use for Str scoresYes, this.

[WitchSlayer]

You're supposed to use a CULEXUS against psykers, you fool!

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a handbook on Anti-Antimagic...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0

It should help..

And yes. a cone on top of the ground would block line of effect for the antimagic field... once the cone touches the ground, for sure... maybe even without the cone touching the ground...

[Weezer]

Thank you for that Gavinfoxx, good link.

[Little Brother]

Here's a handbook on Anti-Antimagic...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0

It should help..

And yes. a cone on top of the ground would block line of effect for the antimagic field... once the cone touches the ground, for sure... maybe even without the cone touching the ground...Nope, there's a 5-foot hole in it. If there is a 5-foot hole in something, it does not block line of effect. Period. The rules are very clear.

[Gavinfoxx]

But the GROUND blocks line of effect, though....

[Weezer]

You need to be able to draw a straight, unobstructed line between the source of the emanation and the target for it to have any effect. I see neither a straight nor an unobstructed line from the AMF to the wizard in this instance.

[marcielle]

OK, I GOT IT! Get Martial study/ a Crown of White Ravens like item for Shadow Jaunt(it'll have to be intelligent of course). Drop down to max distance you can jaunt to. And readied action Jaunt face to face to the wizard. Cone comes down. Wizard trapped by his own hat.

[BlackestOfMages]

OK, I GOT IT! Get Martial study/ a Crown of White Ravens like item for Shadow Jaunt(it'll have to be intelligent of course). Drop down to max distance you can jaunt to. And readied action Jaunt face to face to the wizard. Cone comes down. Wizard trapped by his own hat.

so your within 5 feet of a wizard with access to all of his magic and you're an archer :smallconfused:

see, I'd say this was suicide, but the wizard would probably let you live just for the sheer balls of it all.

[olentu]

so your within 5 feet of a wizard with access to all of his magic and you're an archer :smallconfused:

see, I'd say this was suicide, but the wizard would probably let you live just for the sheer balls of it all.

Nah the proper answer is that three rounds later you are within five feet of where the wizard was three rounds ago.

[marcielle]

Wizard has NONE of his magic and OP has all of his. OP explains in the first post how he manages to have all his magic AND a permanent AMF up at the same time. Are people just reading the last few posts or something? Not that there's anything wrong with that. I've commited my fair share of TLDR lol.

Recap: OP is a Raptoran with awesome burst damage. All his magic items are intelligent, which let them continue to be active in an AMF, of which he has a permanent. You appear face to face with wizard. His hat comes down. He cannot escape the AMF. Contingency:threat proximity fails because you appear next to him instantaneously with Shadow Jaunt EX teleport. By the time you even exist again, he is already in AMF and contingency is supressed.
His hat trick comes down, trapping him and you in the same square, dooming him.

Bears repeating but since all divinitions are magical effects, they are bamboozled(or at least moderately put off) by AMF, merely telling the caster a version of the future that didn't include your existance starting from when you entered the AMF.

[Weezer]

The arrive 3 rounds later is due to anticipate teleport, which would delay the shadow jaunt for 3 rounds allowing the wizard to teleport away at his lesuire. The fact that there is an AMF in play makes no difference, because it would only take effect after the teleporter arrived and that wont happen right away due to anticipate teleport.

[marcielle]

Anticipate as in divinition? As in a magical effect? As in blocked by an AMF?

[Weezer]

Anticipate as in divinition? As in a magical effect? As in blocked by an AMF?

How is the AMF affecting the wizard? Your plan was to jaunt next to the wizard thus trapping the wizard and killing him. Right?

[marcielle]

How is the AMF affecting the wizard? Your plan was to jaunt next to the wizard thus trapping the wizard and killing him. Right?

Plan is to port so close that when the cone comes down, either you are in it or the cone comes down on you. Sure you are pinned by a lead cone but IIRC there are no rules a heavy object hurting you unless it is from more than 10 ft above. This means the hat is completely circumvented. With the only disadvantage being you can't move. Note Shadow Jaunt says 'space' not square. Unless I missed something(and actually I could have:smalltongue:), you can move into a person's square so long as your hand doesn't appear in someone's chest or something. Though since the srd has a line that says ' a SPACE that is one SQUARE wide', I think I can assume that 'space' and 'square' are different things. So, it's port into wizards space, nose to nose, either you are in the cone, or half of you is and you are pinned by it. Either way, Wizard in an AMF with no escape.

Also, in case I'm getting your question wrong, I made an argument that divinations are blocked by an AMF by virtue of Div being a magical effect. The result being Wizard is given erroneous information due to Div not taking into account your existance, contingencies and such not going off due to AMF blocking their magical effect of sensing whatever would set them off. Since noone has shot it down yet, I am assuming either I am right or this isn't completely covered by RAW and depends on the DM. Or maybe noone could be bothered.

[Weezer]

Plan is to port so close that when the cone comes down, either you are in it or the cone comes down on you. Sure you are pinned by a lead cone but IIRC there are no rules a heavy object hurting you unless it is from more than 10 ft above. This means the hat is completely circumvented. With the only disadvantage being you can't move. Note Shadow Jaunt says 'space' not square. Unless I missed something(and actually I could have:smalltongue:), you can move into a person's square so long as your hand doesn't appear in someone's chest or something. Though since the srd has a line that says ' a SPACE that is one SQUARE wide', I think I can assume that 'space' and 'square' are different things.

Yes. That's what I thought your plan was.

When you attempt to port, the Greater Anticipate Teleport spell is activated, delaying your arrival for 3 rounds. Since you never arrive the wizard isn't AMF'd, the cone isn't activated and the wizard is free to leave at his leisure.

[tyckspoon]

. Note Shadow Jaunt says 'space' not square. Unless I missed something(and actually I could have:smalltongue:), you can move into a person's square so long as your hand doesn't appear in someone's chest or something.


You missed that space is a reserved game term; it's defined as the area a creature occupies. For a standard medium creature its space is the one 5-foot square it stands in; larger ones use large spaces and smaller ones use smaller spaces. The statement about trying to teleport into an occupied space is in fact telling you exactly that you can't use it to get into another creature's square(s). If they meant you just can't show up inside something, you'd be looking at wording more like the stuff in Dimension Door about what happens if you try to teleport inside of an object.

Edit: And you're assigning far too much protective power to AMF. It's not going to prevent Anticipate Teleport from doing what it does, not by RAW. You could probably have a huge screaming match with a hypothetical DM about whether or not it *should*, but default is it doesn't. So what actually happens is you teleport, and then when you show up you're standing inside a Prismatic Wall inside a Forcecage next to a Solar with orders to beat you up. The Wizard is 30 feet away and laughing.

[marcielle]

@tyck
Derp. Sorry, SRD wording led me to believe otherwise. You're probably right.

But am I giving AMF too much protective power? Or is everyone else NOT giving it enough? Lol. Just asking though, why wouldn't it block anticipate teleport? I mean divinition might have been DM fiat but anticipate looks like a magical effect directly affecting you(the teleporting creature). Now, how would it delay you if you are 'impervious to magical effects' as the AMF wording? Is there some sort of incredible, nerfing weakness in AMF? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just really don't understand why people are selling AMF short/ not applying it creatively.

[Daftendirekt]

The whole thing anticipate teleport does is delay people teleporting in so you can act before they do. If the wizard has Anticipate Teleport up and you try to Shadow Jaunt in, he has minimum 1 round before you do, which he can just use to teleport away. He's gone before you (And your AMF) arrive, thus, he's not affected by it. It's that simple. No argument.

[Weezer]

@tyck
Derp. Sorry, SRD wording led me to believe otherwise. You're probably right.

But am I giving AMF too much protective power? Or is everyone else NOT giving it enough? Lol. Just asking though, why wouldn't it block anticipate teleport? I mean divinition might have been DM fiat but anticipate looks like a magical effect directly affecting you(the teleporting creature). Now, how would it delay you if you are 'impervious to magical effects' as the AMF wording? Is there some sort of incredible, nerfing weakness in AMF? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just really don't understand why people are selling AMF short/ not applying it creatively.

The thing is AMF only effects what is in its radius and in this case no part of the anticipate teleport spell is within that radius, thus there would be no interference from it. Also the spell never targets the teleporter, just the original recipient of the spell. It delays "Any teleportation spell or effect", this to me indicates that what it is modifying is the teleportation effect itself (in this case Shadow Jaunt) not the creature who is teleporting.

And yes, you are giving AMF too much credence, it simply isn't as powerful as you make it out to be.

P.S. Anticipate Teleport is abjuration, not divination, though that doesn't really matter.

EDIT: And don't forget, anticipate teleport is a 3rd level spell that lasts 24 hours, there is zero reason that any high level wizard wouldn't have it going all the time. Especially if we're applying the same effort of optimization towards the wizard as you guys are to the wizard killer.

[marcielle]

OK, then. So it seems this thread was a bust. Is there anyone who atually found out how to beat an optimized wizard btw? Besides an equally optimized wizard I mean.

[tyckspoon]

OK, then. So it seems this thread was a bust. Is there anyone who atually found out how to beat an optimized wizard btw? Besides an equally optimized wizard I mean.

When 9th-level spells are in play? No; you have to be a better wizard (and see somebody's sig-quote about how such wizards don't actually fight each other, they just meet for a friendly game and a cup of tea and amicably agree that one of them has the better paranoia-suite and wins.) Below that you have better chances, because there are some key powers that are not easy to acquire with anything less.

[Weezer]

Not on a consistent basis, there have been a few tricks that people have used in arenas that have worked, but those have been pretty out there tricks and were things that the wizard could've become immune to if given warning. Nothing can defeat the wizards theoretical maximum of protection. They just have way too many NO buttons for attackers to overcome them.

[Little Brother]

OK, then. So it seems this thread was a bust. Is there anyone who atually found out how to beat an optimized wizard btw? Besides an equally optimized wizard I mean.Uh, 'scuse me? My archer works fine. You are not using the way an archer is to be used. The AMF is for personal protection and to avoid Mindsight if need be. An archer is NOT supposed to go into melee and beat people with their ranged weapon, bow or otherwise. Unless, of course, your're named Archer and have a magical portal to throw swords, maybe have a magical sword that shoots black lasers.

Not on a consistent basis, there have been a few tricks that people have used in arenas that have worked, but those have been pretty out there tricks and were things that the wizard could've become immune to if given warning. Nothing can defeat the wizards theoretical maximum of protection. They just have way too many NO buttons for attackers to overcome them.Which is why I'm working on the replacement, as we speak.

[Little Brother]

Updated. Ready to tear holes in it, people?

[Hirax]

I might be missing it, but is there total divination immunity in there somewhere? If not you'll need a third eye conceal, or other mind blank magic item. The weirdstone is primarily useful to prevent teleporting, strangely it only stops scrying divinations, so spells such as discern location and vision are still effective. At that point metafaculty is your only divination worry. Though vision might arguably work even against mind blank items, because it doesn't target you.

[Little Brother]

I might be missing it, but is there total divination immunity in there somewhere? If not you'll need a third eye conceal, or other mind blank magic item. The weirdstone is primarily useful to prevent teleporting, strangely it only stops scrying divinations, so spells such as discern location and vision are still effective. At that point metafaculty is your only divination worry. Though vision might arguably work even against mind blank items, because it doesn't target you.Mind blank? Would that work? I can cut a plus or two of the bow to buy a continuous item of Mind Blank.

[Hirax]

It's useful enough that I'd get it anyway (third eye conceal is a SRD item). It's definitely more useful than +5 on a weapon, I usually stop at +1. That said, I also don't see anything that gets around foresight. The wizard could just cast mage's mansion and go inside.

[Little Brother]

It's useful enough that I'd get it anyway (third eye conceal is a SRD item). It's definitely more useful than +5 on a weapon, I usually stop at +1. That said, I also don't see anything that gets around foresight. The wizard could just cast mage's mansion and go inside.After eating 32~ arrows?

[Hirax]

It'd probably be worth making a new thread entirely devoted to how you're getting around foresight. My interpretation of what is going on is that you get a surprise round normally by sniping, but foresight takes that away, and initiative is rolled normally. You still get an initiative roll even if you don't know what's threatening you. Even if you somehow win initiative, the wizard can still go first via celerity. It's a murky area of the rules, but "never surprised" is pretty ironclad.

[Little Brother]

It'd probably be worth making a new thread entirely devoted to how you're getting around foresight. My interpretation of what is going on is that you get a surprise round normally by sniping, but foresight takes that away, and initiative is rolled normally. You still get an initiative roll even if you don't know what's threatening you. Even if you somehow win initiative, the wizard can still go first via celerity. It's a murky area of the rules, but "never surprised" is pretty ironclad.Sure I don't get a surprise round, but he wins and his celerity is wasted. The way it's worded, typically, it goes off to a particularly hungry squirrel looking at him. He wins initiative, but he doesn't know he does, and he wastes his first round.

[Hirax]

I don't know that you're going to find a lot of people that agree with that interpretation. Like I said, foresight is a whole new thread on its own.

[Weezer]

Sure I don't get a surprise round, but he wins and his celerity is wasted. The way it's worded, typically, it goes off to a particularly hungry squirrel looking at him. He wins initiative, but he doesn't know he does, and he wastes his first round.

Why do you think that he would waste a celerity? Don't forget this line of foresight: "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself". Yes, that is an incredibly vague line and isn't particularly helpful, but it wound undoubtedly give the subject an idea of the extent of danger he is in. And being about to be killed by 36 arrows would count as a pretty damn grievous threat, so I'd imagine that the warning would be enough for the wizard to activate his GTFO procedure.

[vitkiraven]

Why do you think that he would waste a celerity? Don't forget this line of foresight: "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself". Yes, that is an incredibly vague line and isn't particularly helpful, but it wound undoubtedly give the subject an idea of the extent of danger he is in. And being about to be killed by 36 arrows would count as a pretty damn grievous threat, so I'd imagine that the warning would be enough for the wizard to activate his GTFO procedure.

I don't know if the build still includes a pet, but one is easily bought for 500 gp, even wartrained, so if the archer had a pet riding dog which was previously trained to violently hump the leg of any individual that smelled funny (or wore robes, say) on sight, would the foresight key off of the archer if he held his action, or the 100 lb. Rottweiler looking to use the mage's hip joint as a chew toy that attacked first, while said archer was in hiding?
I briefly glanced over the spell, but it never specified level of threat, but I might have missed it. In that case, a spell that prevents violent canine love might not be as optimal as one that would block a quiver and three quarters of arrows coming at him a few fractions of a second afterward the first threat is over. (And if someone tries to argue a war dog isn't a threat, without spells, a mage is just high level commoner, and some cats would like to have some words with you. :smallbiggrin:)

[Little Brother]

I don't know if the build still includes a pet, but one is easily bought for 500 gp, even wartrained, so if the archer had a pet riding dog which was previously trained to violently hump the leg of any individual that smelled funny (or wore robes, say) on sight, would the foresight key off of the archer if he held his action, or the 100 lb. Rottweiler looking to use the mage's hip joint as a chew toy that attacked first, while said archer was in hiding?
I briefly glanced over the spell, but it never specified level of threat, but I might have missed it. In that case, a spell that prevents violent canine love might not be as optimal as one that would block a quiver and three quarters of arrows coming at him a few fractions of a second afterward the first threat is over. (And if someone tries to argue a war dog isn't a threat, without spells, a mage is just high level commoner, and some cats would like to have some words with you. :smallbiggrin:)Which is why I was saying a hungry squirrel could trigger it. But this build has feats to blow, I might as well nab a Wild Cohort. Leg-humping'd be funny.

[marcielle]

Uh, 'scuse me? My archer works fine. You are not using the way an archer is to be used. The AMF is for personal protection and to avoid Mindsight if need be....
Sorry. Not the meelee thing , I meant there was no counter for divinition and such since my argument to help you get that out of AMF failed miserably.
No offence meant.
Edit: Mind blank might do it. But be warned. Depending on how 'does not work' works, he might be tipped of that someone with Mind Blank is after him.

[vitkiraven]

Which is why I was saying a hungry squirrel could trigger it. But this build has feats to blow, I might as well nab a Wild Cohort. Leg-humping'd be funny.

Not just leg-humping, but VIOLENT leg humping, and with your stock, off the shelf 8str wizard, I don't know if they could push the dog off once the action initiated. I don't know that I'd classify that as grapple, though FOM might block it.

I can see it now, the Mage has foresight dropped, and gets a warning about impending violation from some source, what would the mage do if it couldn't teleport? What spell would it use to protect itself? Forcecage on oneself? Not a bad idea actually.

EDIT: I don't think Mord's Faithful Hound would distract it, with anybscemt behind it, :smallbiggrin:

[Weezer]

Not just leg-humping, but VIOLENT leg humping, and with your stock, off the shelf 8str wizard, I don't know if they could push the dog off once the action initiated. I don't know that I'd classify that as grapple, though FOM might block it.

I can see it now, the Mage has foresight dropped, and gets a warning about impending violation from some source, what would the mage do if it couldn't teleport? What spell would it use to protect itself? Forcecage on oneself? Not a bad idea actually.

EDIT: I don't think Mord's Faithful Hound would distract it, with anybscemt behind it, :smallbiggrin:

Actually prismatic sphere or resilient sphere are two really good spells for this instance. Both will protect the caster from just about anything and give him time to figure out his next move.

[vitkiraven]

Actually prismatic sphere or resilient sphere are two really good spells for this instance. Both will protect the caster from just about anything and give him time to figure out his next move.

Very true, and it's good this was brought up, because, as it stands atm, all the wizard knew about was the dog rushing his way. IF the archer was holding for engagement, so the mage in question can drop a prismatic sphere or a resilient sphere every time a dog is overly friendly? (As the archer should have still been hidden until that point, if this tactic is accepted by the op anyway, as a valid one). Wow, lots of fun being in a town for that one, huh? :smallbiggrin: Probably wouldn't matter anyway, most towns or village would likely dislike spellcasters anyway.

Again, this is a valid tactic to avoid dog or any other menace, but it could easily cost some resources, on the part of the mage, while all the archer would be doing is hiding and waiting for his shot, and the dog would be waiting outside, looking to find it's robed amour. About right for the wizards side? Must protect oneself from canine love at all costs! Hahahaha

[Weezer]

Well the spell does tell you the appropriate action to take, so if a dog is going to jump out it might just say "beware slobber" or tell you to fly up 10 ft (if you're a high level mage without 24/7 flight you're being a chump). So a dog won't trigger use of any appreciable resources on the part of the wizard, at the most if the wizard is really irritated he will waste a magic missile spell on it.

[vitkiraven]

Very, very good response, and now the dog has just put the mage to flight, (the flying move action) and fulfilled the dogs purpose, to have the mage do something, anything. Once the mage has done something, the archer can act from his sniper post. Once the wizard triggers something to get it to go ahead of the dog, just in case, you know, the dog does bite, and the mage acted to defeat a beware bite signal, since each bit of information is given a few instances before the threat, if you flew up, or did anything aside from removing yourself from the field of battle, you played into the archers had, and once you do it, you get the warning, while the arrows are likely coming, that you probably shouldn't have "popped" in that way. (Sorry, hunter Irl, so using the terminology that's comfortable)
I hate it, but the only way to get close to trumping foresight is xanatos gambits, ensuring that the mage does something that will cause him to use his turn or part of his turn, and have the other party delay to act during the mages turn.
Can you use celerity in a round if you have already used it?