Paladin gaining Maneuvers instead of spells

[Adamantrue]

A Player of mine is playing a Paladin, and I made the mistake comment that he may want to look at the Crusader. Though he had access to the book, he hadn't given it a good look until this point.

He seems to be in agreement that any of those Classes would be disruptive to our game, but he would enjoy many of the Maneuvers & Stances with his current character.

As everyone is currently 3rd level, the issue of Spellcasting for him hasn't come up. We both think it may be fun if he were to learn Maneuvers/Stances instead of Spells, using the same slots & half-caster level as his Initiator level. We'd just need to come up with a recharge mechanic, and how to properly split the Maneuvers & Stances.

I'm sure this isn't an original thought, and a cursory search made mention (positively) of doing such a thing, but no details. So, I'd thought I'd ask the crew here how they'd approach it.

Giving him free reign to choose between Maneuvers & Stances is an option (stocking up on too many Stances would be enough of a deterrent in my mind, since you can only use one at a time). Another option is to let him use his Bonus Spell Slots from a high Wisdom for Stances exclusively, and the rest for Maneuvers, ignoring the preassigned level for the spell slot (so at 20, he'd have 12 slots total) and able to swap out old Maneuvers at every even level.

I'm not particularly fond of the Crusader recharge mechanic, but I think their Disciplines access seems ideal. An interesting option we mentioned is that he could recover all his spent maneuvers with a successful Smite Evil (they would still all be available at the beginning of each encounter). Not ideal against non-Evil opponents, but a Paladin shouldn't be in prolonged combat with non-Evil opponents anyways.

Finally, Stances would also effect his Special Mount (though not Maneuvers). This truly would keep his Mount viable with the loss of the ability to Share Spells.

Thoughts?

[Yuki Akuma]

Why does he think Crusader would be 'disruptive' to the game?

[Coidzor]

Why does he think Crusader would be 'disruptive' to the game?

Further question, why did the DM recommend him to look up the Crusader if the DM thought the Crusader would be disruptive to the game and the player he recommended it to agreed with him? :smallconfused:

Better question than this one though, why would Crusaders be viewed as disruptive independent of their maneuvers and stances?

[Eldan]

And finally...
What exactly do you think is the difference between a Maneuver paladin and a Crusader?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Further question, why did the DM recommend him to look up the Crusader if the DM thought the Crusader would be disruptive to the game and the player he recommended it to agreed with him? :smallconfused:

Better question than this one though, why would Crusaders be viewed as disruptive independent of their maneuvers and stances?I think the idea is that the Paladin would have a slower maneuver/stance progression. This may be a low-op game, and classes with high optimization floors can be more powerful than the rest of the party in such a setting. I'm surprised druids haven't come up, though.

[Fax Celestis]

Also try this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Why does he think Crusader would be 'disruptive' to the game?

Tier 3 in a predominatly tier 4-6 game perhaps? A group that is strongly in the camp of "melee can't have nice things." Non-powergamers who call foul when using an "overpowered" class from a horribly "overpowered" book. There can be any number of things.

On topic: I like the idea in general but I'd give him 3/4 IL instead of 1/2 you get normally. I'd say you get 4 stances, once everytime you'd nomally get a new spell level (regardless if you could actually cast it normally or not) plus the 12 manuevers total, perhaps gaining bonus manuevers in the same fashion as bonus spells.

Do note that make it clear that his mount is still an ally for manuevers like Revitalizing Strike or White Raven Tatics. His mount just can't iniatiate or gain benefits not granted to allies.

Wow, swordsage'd hard.

[Chambers]

I've played a character with a similar setup. He was a 6th level Ranger that got maneuvers instead of spells and he had a half initiator level as well.

My advice is to go full initiator level. Having a half initiator level sucks, especially combined with the slowed progression of maneuvers (done to match the Ranger & Paladin spell progression). Sure, I had a few maneuvers, but they were all behind the power curve of the other characters and I realized that he was never going to catch up with the delayed progression and half initiator level.

I recommend this (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) instead.

[Coidzor]

Tier 3 in a predominatly tier 4-6 game perhaps? A group that is strongly in the camp of "melee can't have nice things." Non-powergamers who call foul when using an "overpowered" class from a horribly "overpowered" book. There can be any number of things.

On topic: I like the idea in general but I'd give him 3/4 IL instead of 1/2 you get normally. I'd say you get 4 stances, once everytime you'd nomally get a new spell level (regardless if you could actually cast it normally or not) plus the 12 manuevers total, perhaps gaining bonus manuevers in the same fashion as bonus spells.

Do note that make it clear that his mount is still an ally for manuevers like Revitalizing Strike or White Raven Tatics. His mount just can't iniatiate or gain benefits not granted to allies.

Wow, swordsage'd hard.

So... The Bard of martial adepts? :smallamused: Make sure he takes From Smite To Song, then.

...Oh, yeah, and you can find several examples of martial adept rangers AKA Sublime Rangers and at least one Sublime Bard in the Homebrew section here for inspiration.

Don't think many people bother to make Sublime Paladins due to the Crusader though.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So... The Bard of martial adepts? :smallamused: Make sure he takes From Smite To Song, then.



This was definatly not my intent nor do I understand how you got this. This is something Crusaders can do normally and far more efficiently than the Paladin I'm proposing.

[Coidzor]

This was definatly not my intent nor do I understand how you got this. This is something Crusaders can do normally and far more efficiently than the Paladin I'm proposing.

3/4 Maneuvers instead of 1/2 or 1/1.

Who has 3/4 casting instead of 1/2 or 1/1?

The Bard!

[MesiDoomstalker]

3/4 Maneuvers instead of 1/2 or 1/1.

Who has 3/4 casting instead of 1/2 or 1/1?

The Bard!

9 can not be multiplied by 3/4 nor 1/2 without getting a fraction so I hardly see the connection. Bards get 2/3 casting, not 3/4. Its notebally less than 3/4. But thats just a Bio major nitpicking basic algebra.

[Coidzor]

9 can not be multiplied by 3/4 nor 1/2 without getting a fraction so I hardly see the connection. Bards get 2/3 casting, not 3/4. Its notebally less than 3/4. But thats just a Bio major nitpicking basic algebra.

Well as long as we're agreed and you get it then, those would be the important things here.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well as long as we're agreed and you get it then, those would be the important things here.

Yes I do get it. I was being unusually nitpicky and I apologize. Something is up with me tonight. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

That's just life sometimes. No worries.

[Psyren]

Further question, why did the DM recommend him to look up the Crusader if the DM thought the Crusader would be disruptive to the game and the player he recommended it to agreed with him? :smallconfused:

This. I am totally confused.

[Adamantrue]

First off...I told him to check out the Crusader because it was similar thematically to what he was trying to do, not because I thought he should play it.

Since he kinda agrees about the power level being a problem, I don't see what the problem is with me showing to him.

However, we had the passing thought that the Maneuvers may be an interesting & new substitute to spells, perhaps as an alternative choice, without introducing full-Crusader disruption.

Anyways...after some playtesting, here are some observations:

-Maneuver selection as we suggested it was somewhat problematic, if only because of Initiator Level issues (mostly with Stance selection, and the lack of 2nd or 4th level ones). However, going full Initiator Level would introduce a whole host of other, different problems.

-Swapping out older Maneuvers wasn't as useful as it would normally be for a Martial Adept, due to the limited selection. Being able to pick from 9 levels VS 5, and all that.

-This, as we listed it, may be somewhat more potent than normal Paladin spellcasting, since instead of being an either-or with other actions, it can be additive. Mind you, Battle Blessing does much the same job, but it costs a Feat and doesn't quite reach the same heights.

-It is still more favorable to our lower tiers of play than a full Martial Adept. But as-is, it would outshine it a tad too much. Need to find a better compromise.

Right now, I'm thinking the Spell Slots are locked to Maneuver Level So, he would only top out with three each of levels 1 through 4, no bonus slots, but also no requisite Wisdom score to have those slots available. He would however have a full Initiator level.

If he wants one of the Stances, he'd have to take Martial Stance. I don't think this is unfair, as a normal Paladin really leans on Feats too (Battle Blessing, Divine Feats, Divine Metamagic, etc), and lets him take Stances as they become available. Though with Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven, missing out on many (but not all) of the Stances isn't going to be missed. With a full Initiator level, he could pick up an 8th level one at 18th level, or a 3rd level one at 6th.

And again, his recover mechanic would hinge on Smite Evil, recovering all expended Maneuvers from previous (but not the current) rounds. As they all are available at the beginning of each encounter anyways, that would only really become a factor in the most protracted or climatic of encounters.

This seem like a bad idea?

[Ernir]

This seem like a bad idea?

To me, it sounds like a very complicated solution to an imaginary problem.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be hostile. I just don't get why you don't just let the guy multiclass into Crusader or something. The power differences aren't that huge. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Or better yet, Knight/Crusader. Your gimp spell progression ceases to matter and you get two very complimentary mechanics (not to mention fluff.)

[Zaranthan]

To rephrase Ernir, you're really reinventing the wheel here. Given your constraint of "ToB is OP," no, your plan is not bad. The thing is, it's not very good either. Any more detailed analysis requires in-depth knowledge of your local metagame which only you and your group can provide. If you were to post some character sheets, we could analyze your optimization level and determine if this little hack fits that range, but without all that, we really don't know if this is going to "feel overpowered" to you guys. Even with it, we'll be guessing.

[Adamantrue]

To rephrase Ernir, you're really reinventing the wheel here. Given your constraint of "ToB is OP," no, your plan is not bad. The thing is, it's not very good either. Any more detailed analysis requires in-depth knowledge of your local metagame which only you and your group can provide. If you were to post some character sheets, we could analyze your optimization level and determine if this little hack fits that range, but without all that, we really don't know if this is going to "feel overpowered" to you guys. Even with it, we'll be guessing. I do kinda agree with the "reinventing the wheel", but we also would enjoy something a little more fresh & new. I mean, it ain't like WotC is putting out any new sourcebooks, and we haven't moved on to Pathfinder.

Here's an example character. It uses a Custom Race with a LA of 1, so I'll include the base stats & Feat selection.

Donkor, Gestalted Ubasti* Marshal 2//Fighter (Thug) 3.

Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 16

Feats: Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Khopesh), Improved Trip, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Power Attack
Auras Known: Art of War, Motivate Attack

Ubasti are Egyptian-style Feline Humanoids (but not just the Catfolk).

[Ziegander]

I'm pretty sure he wants a Paladin that gets maneuvers but that is still Tier 5. It sounds like he wants it to balance out against a normal Paladin (not, as most people want when they add maneuvers to the Paladin, an upgrade to Tier 3). In that light, that's not some unknowable goal, but it is a bit more complicated than the usual approach.

I'd say keeping him at 1/2 initiator level, but giving him 1 maneuvers known starting at 4th level which improves by 1 every even level thereafter, maneuvers ready starting at 1 and working toward 5, as well as giving him one stance at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th level should be pretty close. Even that seems like Fighter+ though. At 10th level he could pick up White Raven Tactics and then he's got a trick that's better than anything any Tier 5 character can do (that I know of). You could restrict him to Devoted Spirit maneuvers ONLY. *shrug*

[Adamantrue]

Delayed response...sorry.

Keeping it in the Tier 5 ballpark was exactly what I was looking at (don't know why I couldn't explain it that way). But we sort of gave up on the concept.

He's currently a Gestalted Hound Archon-Paladin 4 (using a Savage Species progression), and I've just agreed that after he completes the Hound Archon progression, he can just drop the Gestalt & pick up Crusader. He gets the Maneuvers he wanted that way, and it still stays in the same range as other characters (Gestalted Tier 4-5 or Gestalted Tier 3-6).

[Ziegander]

He's currently a Gestalted Hound Archon-Paladin 4 (using a Savage Species progression), and I've just agreed that after he completes the Hound Archon progression, he can just drop the Gestalt & pick up Crusader. He gets the Maneuvers he wanted that way, and it still stays in the same range as other characters (Gestalted Tier 4-5 or Gestalted Tier 3-6).

That sounds like a good solution for your group.