Cleric of Pelor Build -- A little help

[MagetaTheLion]

I'm incredibly new to the boards, having used them for the last month or so for research on 3.5 and my cleric build. This is my first post.

I'm attempting to build a Cloistered Cleric of Pelor starting at level five. We are using a 28 point-buy. DMM is not out of the question, but my DM wants me to be able to cast spells from the increased level, so if its a level two spell I would need to be able to cast level 8 spells to persist, so I am looking to get some moderate turn attempts for DMM as the game progresses. I've been looking at full casting PRCs, especially Divine Oracle (for the Uncanny Dodge at second level and for role-playing divination), Radiant Servant (to grab heavy armor and martial weapons), and the Sacred Exorcist from Defenders of the Faith (since it grants extra turning a number of times and, in general, seems better than the Complete Divine PRC of the same name.) All 3.5 and 3.0 books seem to be available to us, except for anything about deities from other pantheons.

Our campaign is using the standard gods from the PH and domains outside of the standard god's portfolio are not allowed except through prestige classes. So far I'm grabbing Sun (for the RSoP req.) Knowledge, from the ACF, but am stuck on the other domain.

I have a number of questions:

Is it worthwhile to trade knowledge domain for knowledge devotion or to grab something useless like Healing and immediately trade it out?

My stats are currently: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14 (for knowledge skills and more skill points) Wis 16 (15 org. +1 from lvl 4) and Cha 12. Any suggestions for edits?

Is this progression going to work with something like I described above?:

C. Cleric Lvl 5/Div. Oracle 1/ Rad. Servant 1/Sac. Exorcist X/ More C. Cleric?

I want to use Knowledge devotion and collector of stories for role-playing and the bonuses. I would also like to be able to persist maybe 3 or so spells by the end-game when my spell-progression hits 7th and 8th levels. Beyond this, as the only dedicated caster (we also have a beguiler in the group) with significant damage spells I would like to build some metamagic prowess. Any tips for the best blends of metamagic feats or Divine Feats like Divine Spell Power? I want to be a buffer/healer with the ability to do some spell damage.

Thanks in advance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, by standard rules you don't get to pick whether to use the 3.0 or the 3.5 version of a prestige class. Once it's been updated and reprinted for 3.5, the 3.0 version is no longer valid for use at all. Your DM may handle it slightly differently, but if you're going to follow the rules then you can't use the 3.0 version of a class for which a 3.5 version exists.

Radiant Servant is actually a great choice for five of its ten levels, but you don't want to take more than five because its maximized healing ability is actually a downgrade from its empowered healing ability. On that note, you should get the Healing domain starting out and use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for it, so you can spontaneously cast Heal. Get the Glory domain at the 5th level, since you should already be able to turn undead like a boss and a Greater Turning should easily wipe out most undead encounters you'll run into.

See if you can adapt the Morninglord of Lathander prestige class to work with Pelor, found in Player's Guide to Faerun. According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 9, a Cleric of Pelor converted to be played in Faerun would switch to any of Illmater, Lathander, or Torm, so a prestige class that's designed for any of their worshipers should work with Pelor just fine. Something like Cloistered Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Morninglord 9 is actually quite good.

For Divine Metamagic, the most common practice is to get several of the Nightstick item from Libris Mortis, each one gives you four additional uses of Turn Undead per day. You'll need Extra Turning anyway for Radiant Servant, so you can also get Craft Rod and create those yourself for half price, and to ensure that they're available once you can afford them.

Forget about wearing armor, get a Lesser Rod of Extend and cast Luminous Armor from Book of Exalted Deeds. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration in MIC to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when Luminous Armor ends. You can use a Darkwood heavy shield and there's no drawback for lacking proficiency. Use the Lesser Rod of Extend to cast Magic Vestment on your shield and Luminous Armor every day as well.

Ice Slick in Frostburn and Ice Axe in Spell Compendium are some of the mainstays of crowd control and offensive capability in the lower levels, and they continue stay useful later on. There are quite a few other options for a cold-themed Cleric, but they're not compatible with Pelor due to domain choices.

[Little Brother]

This Pelor? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate)

You want more Wisdom. Be an Azurin, by the way, the AFC makes your turning absurd. Maybe lose the CL for Death Delver.

Congrats, your DMM is absurd, without even bothering with Nightsticks.

Also, ya might want to look at Contemplative or Sovereign Speaker. That's all I got.

[MagetaTheLion]

First of all, by standard rules you don't get to pick whether to use the 3.0 or the 3.5 version of a prestige class.

That is unfortunate, considering the serious nerf from taking out three free feats. Alas. I will definitely look at the Morninglord again because of that ruling.

I've read about Ice Axe before, 2d12 is ridiculous and works with my terrible strength. I will bring up all of the rod uses with the DM and see if he is willing to let me fuddle around with spells like that would require.

Isn't there a bit of discussion as to whether spontaneously casted spells from Healing count for the RSoP's ability?

Maybe lose the CL for Death Delver.

Any good way to RP this? I thought that rebuking undead channeled negative energy, so wouldn't using it for DMM basically be powering a spell with evil forces? Even if I never use a rebuke attempt on undead, I think that would be difficult to explain with Pelor.

I like Contemplative and have thought about the one level dip. Sovereign Speaker is out based on the deities.

You want more Wisdom.

How would you play with those attributes I threw down? Sap the int for more wis? I just worry that my DM will balk when I try to role-play as an academic with 10 or 12 int.

Explain how this Azurin turning is good?

[Keld Denar]

If its not too much trouble to use quote tags [quote], it makes it much easier to parse replies.

That said: It may be a nerf, but its not unreasonable. SacEx is already considered one of the stronger cleric PrCs in that it basically loses nothing other than your strong fort save vs normal cleric, and gives you a bunch of neato toys. To give it 3 free feats on top of that might be a little more than good.

As far as spontaneous casting an RSoP, there are 2 schools of thought. One is that a spell is only a domain spell if it is a cast from a domain slot. That means that you only get up to 6 spells/day that are affected by RSoP (1 at each level, minus Heal, Mass Heal, and Regenerate). The other is that if you can gain spontaneous access to your domain (via Domain Spontinaity feat in Complete Divine, or the Spontaneous Domain ACF in the PHBII), then the spells you cast spontaneously are "domain spells". Its rather grey, and you could read it either way. The former seems slightly more rules solid, but given that healing in combat is a pretty lackluster way to spend combat rounds, the latter wouldn't be unbalanced.

I wouldn't take RSoP past 5 though. Empowered is better than Maximized for most healing spells except Cure Critical, since the static portion of the healing spell is also multiplied by 1.5. Thus, a Mass Cure Light Wounds at CL10 can heal (1d8)*1.5 + 15 HP (16-27) with Empower, but only 18 with Maximize. The other RSoP abilities are really lackluster until you get to 10 when you get Empower back. Really not worth 4 mostly dead levels, IMO. Take SacEx levels instead.

As far as Death Delver and Azurin cleric go...Little Brother is detailing all of the CharOp techniques for getting as many TU attempts/day as possible to power Divine Metamagic. Azurin Cleric turning states that it counts as Turn Undead for all intents and purposes. That means when you take SacEx, you gain Turn Undead again after trading it away for Azurin turning. With Death Delver, you then have 3 seperate pools of energy channeling. Each time you take a feat like Extra Turning, you'd gain 4 * 3 extra TU attempts, since it adds to each, which is how to get the most DMM Persisted spells. If you aren't taking DMM, you don't need that shanananananananananananananigans, and as you stated, Pelor probably wouldn't be too keen on rebuking undead even if it was for "the greater good", whatever that means.

EDIT: My favorite Pelorite PC build is Cleric6/RSoP5/SacEx9 or Cleric6/RSoP5/Contemplative1/SacEx8. Both are decent.

[The Succubus]

I had a cleric of pelor in a PbP game I was in. He had a huge crossbow, wore spiked gauntlets and had a wide rimmed hat.


http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7059/mennanbarrel.png

His hide checks weren't very good though. :smallannoyed:

[MagetaTheLion]

I wouldn't take RSoP past 5 though.

I wasn't too keen on taking it further than that -- the two levels with nothing but cleric BAB progression and saves seemed like a waste.


EDIT: My favorite Pelorite PC build is Cleric6/RSoP5/SacEx9 or Cleric6/RSoP5/Contemplative1/SacEx8. Both are decent.

Both seem right up my alley as far as RPing and abilities. I like the bonus domain from Contemplative.

So I figure with those progressions, I would work on knowledge skills up till level 6 with the cloistered levels and then trade in knowledge domain for devotion, or just wait for the comtemplative level and grab something to immediately trade.

As far as Azurin turning goes, I probably can't change my race at this point. The DM is letting me reroll to Cloistered after three or four sessions because we are lacking in knowledge and party-face skills, so I'm pretty much stuck with human.

Any ideas about the attributes? This is the first time I've done point buy for a cleric and am finding the distribution to be difficult with 28 points.

Any other ACF for clerics that would allow the two DMM turning pools and are different enough to warrant my DM not saying, "instead of getting Turn Undead you would just stack your SacEx levels with your ACF turning"? The Death Delver's rebuke is a good example of something obviously different, but as we covered it seems a little out of the scope for my character.

Also, I know that the Knowledge domain says that the knowledge skills become class skills for your cleric, but when taking an obviously cleric-focused PrC do you think allowing access to those skills through the domain is out of the question? I would like to continue picking up the skills for knowledge devotion and party tactics later.

Are there any other metamagic feats worth taking DMM?

[Keld Denar]

Quicken and Reach tend to be the other 2 choices. Reach is a little redundant with Divine Ward, if you plan on primarily healing with it, but a little more flexible in that you don't need to JUST use it on healing. You could slip a Bestow Curse or a Heal (vs undead) through it as well.

Honestly, I personally don't like DMM. If you aren't using it for persist, I'd rather use the TU attempts for other things. I'm a HUGE fan of Divine Spell Power (CDivine) and Divine Defiance (FCII). Those two are really useful, especially DSP when you are doing your daily buffage. Upgrading your +3 GMW to +4 is a nice boost, and it also makes it last longer and harder to dispel. DSP is also really nice for overcoming SR, or punch people with Holy Word. It couples really well with SacEx as well, since the persistant Consecrate aura gives you a +3 bonus on all turning checks, which DSP is.

As far as abilities, I'd go Wis > Con > Int > Cha > Str > Dex, possibly switching Int and Cha or Str and Dex, depending on what you actually get for stats. Are your stats rolled or are you using PB?

Reading fail...28 PB...hmmmm...

I'd do:

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16 (+1 from levels)
Cha 12

Thats 28 points. If you are able to pawn of the carrying of most of your gear, you could drop Str to 8 for 2 more points of Int or Cha, or drop both Str and Dex to 8 for 2 points of both Int and Cha.

[Little Brother]

Maybe lose the CL for Death Delver.
Any good way to RP this? I thought that rebuking undead channeled negative energy, so wouldn't using it for DMM basically be powering a spell with evil forces? Even if I never use a rebuke attempt on undead, I think that would be difficult to explain with Pelor.Negative Energy means evil only as much as positive energy means good. Reread the Burning Hate thing, read Elder Evils(I believe it has one). Just RP it as you've gotten past these silly little misconceptions. Or you're evil, as you worship Pelor, the Burning Hate.

I like Contemplative and have thought about the one level dip. Sovereign Speaker is out based on the deities. Only if you're in Eberron.


You want more Wisdom.

How would you play with those attributes I threw down? Sap the int for more wis? I just worry that my DM will balk when I try to role-play as an academic with 10 or 12 int. Go with Keld's build. Intelligence 12 is still approximately more than one standard deviation above the mean. You'd still be smart. Not brilliantly booksmart, but enough, combined with your wisdom. Remember, Intelligence in D&D is just booksmarts. You intelligence(Lower case i) is based on all of them, really.


Explain how this Azurin turning is good?Keld beat me to it.

As far as Azurin turning goes, I probably can't change my race at this point. The DM is letting me reroll to Cloistered after three or four sessions because we are lacking in knowledge and party-face skills, so I'm pretty much stuck with human.Azurin is a human, you know. Qualifies for human-only feats and classes, and even bonus feat.


Any other ACF for clerics that would allow the two DMM turning pools and are different enough to warrant my DM not saying, "instead of getting Turn Undead you would just stack your SacEx levels with your ACF turning"? The Death Delver's rebuke is a good example of something obviously different, but as we covered it seems a little out of the scope for my character.Destroy Undead from Ravenloft? 'Sides that, no, not really. Azurin(A human), is the best way to do it.

Are there any other metamagic feats worth taking DMM?Dunno. Persist probably still is, or at least extend, but not really your schtick, otherwise.

[MagetaTheLion]

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16 (+1 from levels)
Cha 12

Isn't that 26? 2+2+6+4+8 (for 15 score) +4 = 26?

I'm thinking 10/8/14/14/16/14?


Honestly, I personally don't like DMM. If you aren't using it for persist, I'd rather use the TU attempts for other things. I'm a HUGE fan of Divine Spell Power (CDivine) and Divine Defiance (FCII). Those two are really useful, especially DSP when you are doing your daily buffage. Upgrading your +3 GMW to +4 is a nice boost, and it also makes it last longer and harder to dispel. DSP is also really nice for overcoming SR, or punch people with Holy Word. It couples really well with SacEx as well, since the persistant Consecrate aura gives you a +3 bonus on all turning checks, which DSP is.


I like both of these, so I might salvage the DMM, which I think is broken anyway, and grab those feats + Glory Domain for even higher bonuses on those turning checks.

Any thoughts on the knowledge skills as class skills for PrC's as well?

Thanks a lot for the ideas guys! I'm very satisfied with these boards so far. Thanks for making the neophyte feel welcome.

[Keld Denar]

Welcome to the family!

A 16 is 10 points. Each point from 14 to 16 costs 2 points in point buy.

As far as knowledges, I don't see it as unbalanced, you'll get fewer skill points with PrCs, so you'll still have to prioritize.

[MagetaTheLion]

A 16 is 10 points

Wait, aren't we doing it as a 15 and then bumping it up to 16 at level four? We're starting at level five. So that would give us those two points to distribute.

[Keld Denar]

You'll be 8 soon enough, and then your Wisdom will be even again, and a whole +1 higher than it would be if you hadn't. Sure, you'll have slightly more points to work with, but you'll have a better Wis for the mid levels. I guess it depends on whether you want to plan for now, or plan for 3 levels from now.

[MagetaTheLion]

I didn't realize that was the suggestion. Went with 10/8/14/12/16/14 for attributes, bumped up to 17 wis at level 4. Divine Spell Power, Heighten Turning and Extra Turning for feats -- and picking up Extend at level 6. So far these have worked exceptionally well together.

[Keld Denar]

I like Empowered Turning over Heightened Turning. Its not hard to jack up your effective level, so its easy to get quality. The part you'll most often lack is quantity. Those 2d6 + level don't stretch very far for 10+ HD undeaders. Remember, you affect closest undead first, so you need enough total HD to punch through the front ranks and start clearing the back. It also couples rather well with the Glory domain. If you really want to burn a feat on turning, I really think that Empowered Turning is the best bang for your buck.

Don't forget to try to pick up an Ephod of Authority. Super useful and super cheap. Great for early game dusting with your Sun domain. Shadows should fall easily by 3rd level.