OOTS #814 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[super dark33]

:smallbiggrin:Hehehe... physical comedy...

Brontosauros Express.
i want one.
or maybe Brontosauros City Flattner.
that would be cool too.

If you dont get title: its from a song. and i like that song.

[dogfish44]

OOH. I( think Tarquin's getting mad.

Bumbling sidekick. HA.

[Morph Bark]

Belkar being smart and making fun of himself? Boy, I do see good for him in the future...

[2xMachina]

Hmm, could be dangerous for Belkar...

I hope Mr. T won't mind too much.

[Protecar]

Glad to see Belkar still working towards been cold and hard on the outside with a warm, sensitive center....or just continuing to mess with people. :smallbiggrin:

Good comic and the brontosaurus joke was golden.

[hamishspence]

Looking good.

I've noticed "fascist" is always spelled "facist" in OoTS- is this a design decision?

[pendell]

Interesting.

Great save by Belkar!

Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ThePhantasm]

Belkar does a good deed again!

Also, for a thief, Ian sure isn't being very subtle. I also worry that, if Geoff is a traitor, that he will tell Tarquin who Ian is...

[theinsulabot]

roy and tarquin make for amusing dialogue

[super dark33]

Interesting.

Great save by Belkar!

Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Because its releasing.
Everyone has a guy they want to go straight up to him and tell him Exactly what you think. and when you do so, you feel great!

[Cranica]

Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?

Yeah, I never took Ian for an idiot, just a very cynical man. This is probably the tipping point for Tarquin where he figures out precisely what's going on with the OOTS; Tarquin is not an idiot and I don't see him buying Belkar's bluff.

[Defiant]

I have to respect Ian's conviction.

And Belkar's continued hilarity :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Dammit Belkar, I'm supposed to be CHEERING at your funeral, not sad... :smallannoyed:

[Kish]

Interesting.

Great save by Belkar!

Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?
He's not telling Tarquin the truth about himself.

His psychological issues were never connected to anything logical.

[Kancsar]

Dinosaur geekdom ftw, though also looks a few orders of magnitude too big. But, that allows it to carry a Jabba's Barge-sized palace on its back. So, now we get another star wars tribute, with Tarquin fighting Nale at the Sarlac pit?

[Killer Angel]

Apparently, some people will never grow from a childish attitude. No, I'm not referring to Belkar. :smalltongue:


So, now we get another star wars tribute, with Tarquin fighting Nale at the Sarlac pit?

probably it will not happen, but I was thinking almost the same...

[TheSummoner]

"And a hippogriff is really just a horse with the head and wings of a bird"

HA! Great line!

I'm wondering what'll happen to Belkar because of that. I really don't see Tarquin falling for it...

[Maethirion]

That little duel-thing I don't quite have words for just honestly made my day :smallbiggrin:

[Squark]

Go belkar! Go Belkar!

(Hippogrif joke was also great)

[talkamancer]

Uncle wassisface dissapeared quickly.

[willpell]

The brontosaurus thing in D&D land is brilliant beyond words.

:roy: "Your definition of 'playing it cool' substantially differs from mine." :biggrin: Another Instant Classic!

[The_Admiral]

Hah bumbling sidekick :smallsmile:

[Tundar]

:roy: "Your definition of 'playing it cool' substantially differs from mine." :biggrin: Another Instant Classic!

Amen to that. He's got a rather low wisdom score, that's for sure.

[Morty]

Ian is the type of person who just can't keep his mouth shut in some situations. Facing Tarquin is one of those situations.

[Feytalist]

Disturbingly, I find myself agreeing with most of Tarquin's rhetoric, and not just in this strip. I hope that's only a sign of the Giant's writing talent, heh :smallbiggrin:

It seems that Belkar actually likes Ian. Hmm.

[Pronounceable]

I don't get why Ian is insisting on being so dense.

In other news, Belkar is useful once again!

[Anarion]

Considering that Ian's pathology about lying was related to being a thief and living in Greysky, it is a bit incongruous that he would confront Tarquin directly like that. I'm guessing he wasn't informed why he was being brought out and Roy's line about freeing him was the first time he heard that, at which point he was already worked up and not thinking straight.

Also, I guess Belkar finally got some ranks in spot? He certainly noticed what was happening in time to act.

[The Pink Ninja]

*Cue a zillion people thinking Belkar is good due to one ambigious act*

[CoffeeIncluded]

Perhaps Belkar got an increase in Wisdom? :smalltongue:

[jidasfire]

As to why Ian is being so unsubtle here, I get the impression from his past dialogue that he harbors a particular hatred for Tarquin, which seems to generally cloud his judgment. Not only that, Ian is probably Chaotic enough that he can't help but thumb his nose at a very Lawful enemy. Since I maintain that the current arc has a heavy theme of Law vs. Chaos, it's not surprising that this would be the source of their conflict.

[Skios]

I think this may mark the first time in the comic where Belkar actually rose above Roy's expectations. Of course his smile in the last panel might just be because Belkar can foil a Lawful Evil system just as well as he can foil a Lawful Good system. Still, he seems quite pleased with how Belkar handled the situation, something I can't remember happening before.

[irenicObserver]

Because its releasing.
Everyone has a guy they want to go straight up to him and tell him Exactly what you think. and when you do so, you feel great!

It feels good to get that weight of your chest
Tarquin: Actually that's your head

[Faltenin]

Ian's attitude is perfectly in character, as someone who is willing to be imprisoned for his ideals. Just replace the characters by Greenpeace protester + polluting businessman, or anti-racism protester vs tyrant... they would all rant in the face of power even if it got them back in irons.

I love the fact that Belkar is showing off his DEX bonus by walking along the handrail this high up :smallsmile: Will any of those pages fly in the face of Haley? Or worse... Nale??? :smalleek:

[The_Admiral]

*Cue a zillion people thinking Belkar is good due to one ambigious act*

But he issssss :smallbiggrin:
sorry could not resist

[Morph Bark]

Looking good.

I've noticed "fascist" is always spelled "facist" in OoTS- is this a design decision?

Could just be not knowing so, as I've often spelled it that way (due to closeness of spelling to racist, which I used to think were inter-related terms).

Or a typo, like there've been before.

[Whiffet]

Hey, Bob Dylan reference! That's a good sign.

Belkar! Quit making me like you! Now I'm going to be sad when you die! And Ian, man, how low is your WIS? That was not a good idea.

[Dr. Gamera]

Looking good.

I've noticed "fascist" is always spelled "facist" in OoTS- is this a design decision?

I don't know, but "fascist" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces) seems to be a particular appropriate sobriquet for Tarquin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquin_the_Proud).

[maxon]

What is Belkar up to? I can't shake the feeling he has an ulterior motive here. Too helpful by half.

[Paperbag4]

Looking good.

I've noticed "fascist" is always spelled "facist" in OoTS- is this a design decision?

It implies a rage and fastidiousness about mustaches.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[King of Nowhere]

Tarquin should be growing a skyskraper-sized sense motive by this point...

[The Succubus]

Dinosaur geekdom ftw, though also looks a few orders of magnitude too big. But, that allows it to carry a Jabba's Barge-sized palace on its back. So, now we get another star wars tribute, with Tarquin fighting Nale at the Sarlac pit?

If it means we get to see Haley in a Slave Leia outfit, I'm all for it.

[leakingpen]

*Cue a zillion people thinking Belkar is good due to one ambigious act*

Well, it could be construed as a GOOD act, but, it is most certainly a CHAOTIC one. Belkar is specifically getting in the way of a lawful government doing its business by destroying / losing its documentation.

But, he's doing it because A. he owes the guy, and B. he likes screwing with tarquin. (and C. practice at the whole, causing chaos while looking like a team player kinda thing)

ROLEPLAY XP!

[warmachine]

Why is Belkar helping Roy? He's not a team player and he likes to see Roy squirm far more than an NPC like Kilkil.

[Gift Jeraff]

Last panel had me laughing on the bus. Nice one!

[fibonacciseries]

Tarquin appears to be angry at Belkar. That doesn't bode well for him.

[warmachine]

I wanna know where the huge amounts of vegetation that a brontosaurus must eat come from in a desert.

Then again, that's a question of economics and economics was stomped into red paste long ago in the Oots world. By the first brontosaurus that was told it's not economically viable to keep an animal that size in a desert city.

[Sleypy]

Why is Belkar helping Roy? He's not a team player and he likes to see Roy squirm far more than an NPC like Kilkil.

Roy is the single most useful person to have on your team when you are looking for something to stab with a dagger. So its in Belkar best interest to keep Roy alive if he wants to kill as many people as possible before he dies :smallbiggrin:.

[Hardcore]

Bob Dylan joke???



But I do think the Brontosaurus express is a wink at games that have similar means of transportation (Morrowind???).

[Whiffet]

Why is Belkar helping Roy? He's not a team player and he likes to see Roy squirm far more than an NPC like Kilkil.

He's been seeing advantages to the whole team player thing (fewer people stopping him from stabbing things) and he likes Ian.

[Incom]

Belkar is awesome :D

[DaOldeWolf]

I loved how Belkar gets his revenge for being called a sidekick. He wanted a sidekick, he got it. :smallbiggrin:

[rbetieh]

I think I get it now....The gresky guys were most likely imprisoned for trying to set up an unsanctioned thieves guild. The old "Dont steal, the government hates competition" sort of thing. So they bring in idealist/activist Ian Starshine, who from the looks of it Michael Moored Tarquin until he got himself arrested, and continues to Michael Moor Tarquin at every turn, which is why he keeps getting arrested. At this point, the only way to get Ian to go away is to find him an even bigger cause to pester about.

[SaintRidley]

When's the last time anyone brought up fascism in the comic? I believe it was Girard's recording.

Probably a red herring, but who knows.

[Jay R]

I wanna know where the huge amounts of vegetation that a brontosaurus must eat come from in a desert.

Since Brontosauruses do not actually exist, they eat very little.


Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?

"Only when it's funny."


Bob Dylan joke???

Where is the answer to Tarquin's question about Ian now? Look at the title of the strip.

[RickDaily12]

Hah, great comic. Fantastic start to the morning.:smallbiggrin:

Also, anyone know just what exactly happened to Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy?:smalleek:

[Laws of Chaos]

What an awesome comic!

And, while I don't see Belkar's move as making him any more Good, or even Neutral, he is being more than the short little psychopath that deserved to die. I've always been a Belkar fan, but mostly because he was just inappropriately funny for all the wrong reasons. Lately he's been, well growing as a character. Growing in a good way. I dont know about anyone else, but for once I hope the Oracle was wrong.

[Keeper of Starlight]

I know a few people have already mentioned "facist"/fascist, but I don't think I've ever seen a typo in the comic before this one. Could this be the first?
Probably not.
That said, I'm wondering whether Ian is actually being a fool or not. Tarquin has displayed his love for drama and excitement at all times, even when prisoners escape from it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html). So perhaps Ian is simply playing into this, and attempting to endear Tarquin enough that he will let Ian do what he wants just for the excitement of it. "Oh, you want to duel me without giving me a weapon? Sounds dramatic!"

[Kish]

And, while I don't see Belkar's move as making him any more Good, or even Neutral, he is being more than the short little psychopath that deserved to die.
He doesn't look any taller to me. :smallconfused:

[Dandria]

Yay, new strip! Truly, this was a blessed day :smallbiggrin:.

[sparkyinbozo]

Love to see and read new strips, though always a little sad when I get the feeling that things are still stagnating while in the desert...

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So, now we get another star wars tribute, with Tarquin fighting Nale at the Sarlac pit?

probably it will not happen, but I was thinking almost the same...

Nale's blonde and wearing a black outfit, it could totally work.

[Martichoras]

While I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to use a fascist empire as a front every now and then, he is clearly not a fascist himself. No sign of palingenetic ultranationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism).

Typical of those chaotic types, getting their nomenclature mixed up ;-)

[Ron Miel]

*Cue a zillion people thinking Belkar is good due to one ambigious act*

How about saying that he has a little bit of goodness in him, and it's growing? Would you accept that?

[Mastikator]

Suddenly I love Mr Starshine a lot more.
And Belkar.

Talk about sticking it to The Man.

[Kish]

While I wouldn't put it past Tarquin to use a fascist empire as a front every now and then, he is clearly not a fascist himself. No sign of palingenetic ultranationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism).
You mean, nothing like the part of the current strip where he described what he's been doing to the continent as "for[ging] order and stability out of anarchy" and states that everyone needs his kind of stability?

[t209]

Nice Strip, Rich! I like the two opposite alignment argument (Chaotic Good vs Lawful Evil), and I also like the title reference to the song blowin to the wind.

[Ron Miel]

I wanna know where the huge amounts of vegetation that a brontosaurus must eat come from in a desert.

How do you think it became a desert?


I know a few people have already mentioned "facist"/fascist, but I don't think I've ever seen a typo in the comic before this one. Could this be the first?

No, there have been several dozens of them.
A few examples (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115674)

[FujinAkari]

I'm a little confused... where the heck are they brontosaurusing back FROM? They were in the Arena, which Elan's running to the palace has already established as being in town...

[The MunchKING]

I'm a little confused... where the heck are they brontosaurusing back FROM? They were in the Arena, which Elan's running to the palace has already established as being in town...

They went to the prison to pick up Red and Uncle Whatshisface.

[ungolhir]

Great comic, giant. Why is Ian wearing manacles in panel four, but none of the others?

[Doug Lampert]

You mean, nothing like the part of the current strip where he described what he's been doing to the continent as "for[ging] order and stability out of anarchy" and states that everyone needs his kind of stability?

Which isn't necessarily Fascist. Plenty of people value order and stability, fascism has a particular emphasis on the nation as an entity and the poster you are replying to gave a link to a specific page discussing the theory of what fascist actually means.

Your post is really a non-sequitor since it doesn't say anything about Tarquin being nationalistic or about the nation at all.

[The MunchKING]

Great comic, giant. Why is Ian wearing manacles in panel four, but none of the others?

"you were locked up a second ago..."

"That was a second ago."

Master theif FTW.

[MoonCat]

Oh for... IAN YOU ARE THE BIGGEST MORON EVER AND I THINK ELAN SHOULD THINK YOU'RE A BIT THICK

Wow. Tarquin is actually getting seriously rattled.

Belkar, I love you.

Giant, you rock. Yet again.

[Karoug]

The look on Belkar's face in panel 8 is priceless.... You just KNOW he is going to mess the whole thing up. It is certainly not a good idea to insult him :)

[Ron Miel]

They went to the prison to pick up Red and Uncle Whatshisface.

But the prison IS the arena.

Distance from arena to palace shown here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html

[Kish]

Which isn't necessarily Fascist. Plenty of people value order and stability, fascism has a particular emphasis on the nation as an entity and the poster you are replying to gave a link to a specific page discussing the theory of what fascist actually means.

Your post is really a non-sequitor since it doesn't say anything about Tarquin being nationalistic or about the nation at all.
Tarquin manifestly believes that the people who have lived under "anarchy," and all people everywhere, have a brighter future in his chains. So he has palingenetic ultranationalism coming out of his ears, by the definition at that link. Does that specifically make him a fascist (or a facist, as the case may be)? I don't know whether that's what makes him one, but I'd certainly say he is one. Independently of that argument and this thread, are you, Doug, seriously saying you consider Tarquin not to be a fascist?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I woke up this morning. And I had this feeling. This feeling deep down in my stomach. It felt good. And I said to my self. "OotS has updated. I know it." So I grabbed my phone and pulled up the browser and went here. And what do I see? A brand new comic!! I must have multiclassed into future psychic while I slept! :smallbiggrin:

Great comic as always!

[Silverraptor]

Belkar just got more awesome in my opinion.:smallbiggrin:

[The Wanderer]

Interesting.

Great save by Belkar!

Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?

Ian's a firebrand. If he were alive in our world he would probably be at every civil rights march against what he saw as imposed or self-serving "Order" and posting on every web site dedicated to those civil rights, every conspiracy theory gathering, etc.

He'd probably be doing more than too, like join the groups that plan illegal actions as a means of protest, hacking the computers of officials he disagrees with to find information on them, committing acts of sabotage, etc.

He can use sneakiness to his own advantage, but coming face to face with someone who inflames his sensibilities and world view, and he's not going to hold back, especially when he's kept it under wraps for months so far. Tarquin is his antithesis in every way, and Ian hates those qualities with a passion.

And Tarquin is none too fond of his counterpart either.

[Tirian]

I rotfled at the thought that Brontosaurus are mythological hybrids in D&D.

[Forikroder]

sp Tarwuin does have some connection to Ian...

[The Wanderer]

I rotfled at the thought that Brontosaurus are mythological hybrids in D&D.

Well, the popular concept of the Brontosaurus in real life is erroneous as well. To make a long story short, the original, not quite complete Brontosaurus fossils had a few parts missing, and they tried to complete it with what they thought were the right bones, skull, etc. Turns out those parts used to complete it were actually from a different species. And Brontosaurus is not the scientific term used for that species today. (Apatosaurus is).

From wikipedia:


Othniel Charles Marsh, a Professor of Paleontology at Yale University, described and named an incomplete (and juvenile) skeleton of Apatosaurus ajax in 1877. Two years later, Marsh announced the discovery of a larger and more complete specimen at Como Bluff Wyoming—which, because of discrepancies including the size difference, Marsh incorrectly identified as belonging to an entirely new genus and species. He dubbed the new species Brontosaurus excelsus, meaning "thunder lizard", from the Greek brontē/βροντη meaning 'thunder' and sauros/σαυρος meaning 'lizard', and from the Latin excelsus, "highest, sublime", referring to the greater number of sacral vertebrae than in any other genus of sauropod known at the time.

The finds—the largest dinosaur ever discovered at the time and nearly complete, lacking only a head, feet, and portions of the tail — were then prepared for what was to be the first ever mounted display of a sauropod skeleton, at Yale's Peabody Museum of Natural History in 1905. The missing bones were created using known pieces from close relatives of Brontosaurus. Sauropod feet that were discovered at the same quarry were added, as well as a tail fashioned to appear as Marsh believed it should, as well as a composite model of what he felt the skull of this massive creature might look like. This was not a delicate Diplodocus-style skull (which would later turn out to be more accurate[21]), but was composed of "the biggest, thickest, strongest skull bones, lower jaws and tooth crowns from three different quarries",[22] primarily those of Camarasaurus, the only other sauropod for which good skull material was known at the time. This method of reconstructing incomplete skeletons based on the more complete remains of related dinosaurs continues in museum mounts and life restorations to this day.

[J.Gellert]

Tarquin should become a regular member of the Order. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

In regards to them using the Brontosaurus Express whereas Elan ran there before the wizard duel ended (evidenced by Qarr teleporting in after Elan freed Amun-Zora), I like to think Dashing Swordsmen have a class feature that let them run at the speed of plot, but only if they're off-screen.

Would that be extraordinary or supernatural?

[WickedWizard17]

HAHAHAHAHA. Great comic, Giant! But I want to see Haley!!!!!

Wow. I guess Belkar is either an excellent actor, or he really has had character development.

[MoonCat]

*Cue a zillion people thinking Belkar is good due to one ambigious act*

It's been several, and non-ambiguous ones at that. And I think you mean 'a zillion people thinking Belkar is improving'. :smallannoyed:

[Conuly]

Disturbingly, I find myself agreeing with most of Tarquin's rhetoric, and not just in this strip.

That's what makes evil dictators so compelling. If they didn't have convincing rhetoric, they'd just be boring old bullies. But with the rhetoric they're bullies with ARMIES and bullies with POWER and bullies you sorta sympathize with even though they're nutsoid.

That's not just in fiction, either. How do you think real life dictators get in power? Through compelling rhetoric.

[rewinn]

And once again, Belkar beats up on the Kobold!

[nonamearisto]

Did Belkar just commit another quasi-good deed? That's like... a new record for him. :smallsmile:

[Hokum]

fat sympathy deduction for Mr. Starshine.

Sticking to your principles is one thing, being stupid and endangering people that help you is another.

[Gift Jeraff]

I just realized Kilkil also made the papers for Elan, Haley, and V. And Malack called her Starshine, so it's not like she's been telling people her name is Haley Shackleford or anything. So he might still be able to make the connection between Haley Starshine and Ian Starshine.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Tarquins expression goes from plain and not expressive when talking to Roy, to :smallconfused: when Ian first shows up. Then it becomes a flat unibrow that becomes increasingly more bent till the last panel as :smallmad: after Belkar made Kilkil drop all the papers. I can't wait to see if Tarquin will loose his cool or not.

EDIT: In the 3rd panel, the only panel Geoff is in, he has this face :smalleek: while Ian has this face. :smallmad: More cicumstancial evidence that Geoff has something that he isn't telling us.

[faustin]

Ian is giving a bad example of how to play a Chaotic character in a very Lawful (if Evil) country (rubbing his nose in front of the main authority enforcer), while Belkar is giving the right example of how to play against them without crossing to much the line.

By the way, like the line of "bumbling sideckick" (and for some reason with always reminds me to Ron Stoppable).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ian is giving a bad example of how to play a Chaotic character in a very Lawful (if Evil) country (rubbing his nose in front of the main authority enforcer), while Belkar is giving the right example of how to play against them without crossing to much the line.

By the way, like the line of "bumbling sideckick" (and for some reason with always reminds me to Ron Stoppable).

Ron Stoppable was the definition of bumbling sidekick till he got ninja monkey mojo.


What? Ya I watched Kim Possible, what of it? It was a cool show! DON'T JUDGE ME! :smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

So they're on some sort of cruiser in the middle of a desert? This is just gonna be like that one scene from Return of the Jedi, huh?

[Craft (Cheese)]

So they're on some sort of cruiser in the middle of a desert? This is just gonna be like that one scene from Return of the Jedi, huh?

All that's missing is Tarquin's new wife in chains...

[KoboldRevenge]

Haha!

Kilkil's gonna get it! I mean if Tarquin ignores the whole don't kill you administrators rule in the Evil Overlord List.

[Pantler]

Belkar rocks. 'Nuff said.

[Trixie]

So, why is Roy frowning? Doesn't Belkar did the exact thing Roy would ask him for now? :smallconfused:

[Gift Jeraff]

So, why is Roy frowning? Doesn't Belkar did the exact thing Roy would ask him for now? :smallconfused:Look at his mouth. He's smirking. :smallamused:

[Klytus]

Interesting.

Great save by Belkar!

Still ... I'm a little surprised at Ian. After all, he raised his daughter to trust no one and to never ever tell the truth about herself to anyone. It's why Haley had such a hard time opening up to Elan. So why is he opening up and telling Tarquin exactly what he thinks of him? A man who could have him fed to a dragon at a word?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah, this bugs me, too. My guess is that Ian doesn't really have a "code" he lives by (i.e., never tell the truth, because people will only hurt you). He's just an angry, bitter old man with no impulse control, who does what he wants when he wants because he feels like it... which is pretty much textbook Chaotic behavior, when you think about it. Only he's gotten so good at finding ways to "justify" his behavior after the fact, people buy into it and assume he has goals or an agenda of some kind.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So, why is Roy frowning? Doesn't Belkar did the exact thing Roy would ask him for now? :smallconfused:

He's smiling at Belkar, not frowing. He's frowing at Ian for being stupid.

[Shoelessgdowar]

What is Belkar up to? I can't shake the feeling he has an ulterior motive here. Too helpful by half.

Actually Belkar has several motives here, in no particular order:

1) Playing the Game or at least appearing to be
2) Helping Ian, cause he and Haley's dad are nearly friends
3) Getting revenge for being called a sidekick
4) Messing with an Urd (Winged Kobold subspecies that Kilkil appears to be)
5) Disrupting a Lawful System

I could probably think of others, and for those questioning Tarquin's acceptance, I think he'd actually accept it for two reasons... Dramatic Effect that the key information has blown away which will help his 'good' son at some future point, and because Belkar played it up to the Comic Klutziness of the sidekick, which Tarquin will accept for its genre appropriateness since Belkar Lampshaded it for him, thereby reaffirming his perception of Belkar's role.



I rotfled at the thought that Brontosaurus are mythological hybrids in D&D.

Technically Brontosaurs are mythological hybrids in Real Life :) Since they're really the head of a Camarasaurus on the body of Apatosaurus...

[rbetieh]

Tarquins expression goes from plain and not expressive when talking to Roy, to :smallconfused: when Ian first shows up. Then it becomes a flat unibrow that becomes increasingly more bent till the last panel as :smallmad: after Belkar made Kilkil drop all the papers. I can't wait to see if Tarquin will loose his cool or not.

EDIT: In the 3rd panel, the only panel Geoff is in, he has this face :smalleek: while Ian has this face. :smallmad: More cicumstancial evidence that Geoff has something that he isn't telling us.

Tarquin Never loses his cool. But he might be coming up with yet another back up plan just in case.

[Mutant Sheep]

Tarquin never loses his cool. But he might be coming up with yet another back up plan just in case.

Except when uh.. we don't know anything about him? How do you know he has never lost his cool? We've seen him for like, 4 days of in-comic time. He could have gone tearing up the carpet when his first invasion failed.

I slept in today. Yet again, OoTS has made me regret it. :smallbiggrin:

[Harbajar]

1) What The Wanderer said (too lazy to quote) - Wondrous play of terms between Roy and Tarquin
2) Belkar - no not 'good' or even doing 'good'. Tarquin say him as a sidekick and Belkar took it to the next level of "bumbling" which conveniently allows him to antagonize the antagonist (well maybe peeve off a lot).

Giant, I marvel at your plot creating abilities. It is a rocking ride with twists, and quips and puns and self reference.

[bronnt]

Actually Belkar has several motives here, in no particular order:

1) Playing the Game or at least appearing to be
2) Helping Ian, cause he and Haley's dad are nearly friends
3) Getting revenge for being called a sidekick
4) Messing with an Urd (Winged Kobold subspecies that Kilkil appears to be)
5) Disrupting a Lawful System

I could probably think of others, and for those questioning Tarquin's acceptance, I think he'd actually accept it for two reasons... Dramatic Effect that the key information has blown away which will help his 'good' son at some future point, and because Belkar played it up to the Comic Klutziness of the sidekick, which Tarquin will accept for its genre appropriateness since Belkar Lampshaded it for him, thereby reaffirming his perception of Belkar's role.

It all sounds about right to me. And while I wouldn't say that Belkar is becoming good, maybe he's also making a correction back toward neutral...or at least, less evil. Perhaps, "Evil with the occasional non-evil act" is more appropriate.

[Bulldog Psion]

I, too, am totally puzzled at how they ended up in the middle of the desert on a brontosaurus. Where on Earth are they going? :smallconfused:

And Ian sure is a stupid, muttonheaded blighter, isn't he? Jeez. :smallmad:

[Mutant Sheep]

I'm assuming Roy and Thog went at it for a good half hour or more, and Elan was talking about wanting to run better when he got to the palace, so its probably a good way away. They could walk, or they could use a brontosaurus and get there faster while showing more dinosaurs. If you DON'T pick the dinosaur option, there's something wrong with you.:smalltongue:

[Onyavar]

No sign of palingenetic ultranationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism).

Heehee, and here I first thought you were somehow referring to one of the US politicians :smallbiggrin:

Great strip! I'm thinking somehow that Ian has been shifting heavily towards Chaotic neutral - this "CN is insane alignment" thing, you know?" Well, he hasn't committed evil acts, but insane it is.

So far, we have seen several CG characters. Elan, Haley, Shojo... all lovably characters. Now its Ian turn to show us that you can be CG and definitely not the audience favorite.

While Tarquin shows us that you can be LN and the audiences favorite.

[Nohar]

Thank you for the new comic Giant !

Geez, Ian's Wisdom score is abysmal... No wonder Haley has been traumatized by him (and her mother's death). Paranoid and awfully stupid...

A character than I'm going to love to hate :smallamused:

Tarquin seems a "little" pissed. Either he figures out who Ian is right away, and will wait to play his cards, or he will make the connection later, and act accordingly... Tarquin is dangerous, very dangerous, and I'm afraid we haven't seen all that he's hiding from us (and from the characters). He's intelligent (something Xykon sometimes lacks, though he compensates with his raw power and clever tactics, though he has to rely on Redcloack everyone now and then). On top of that, he has powerful allies (you can't brag about having a dragon for ally very often, and the rest of his companions are pretty high level - and I definitly wouldn't want to face Malak either when he's angry). Did I forgot to mention he rules an entire Empire ?
This guy is trouble. Real trouble.

@Onyavar : You mean "LE" for Tarquin ? Because it's more or less officially his alignment (though he may see himself as LN... Or rather, he doesn't bother with alignments at all).

[Belril Duskwalk]

Heehee, and here I first thought you were somehow referring to one of the US politicians :smallbiggrin:

Great strip! I'm thinking somehow that Ian has been shifting heavily towards Chaotic neutral - this "CN is insane alignment" thing, you know?" Well, he hasn't committed evil acts, but insane it is.

So far, we have seen several CG characters. Elan, Haley, Shojo... all lovably characters. Now its Ian turn to show us that you can be CG and definitely not the audience favorite.

While Tarquin shows us that you can be LN and the audiences favorite.

Pretty sure Tarquin has been labelled as evil as far back as Nale's introduction. Also, look at the Empire he is running. None of which harms his favorite status in the slightest.

[Kish]

Tarquin [...] LN
There is not enough facepalm in the world.

Tarquin is Lawful Neutral like Xykon is Chaotic Neutral.

[Burner28]

Heehee, and here I first thought you were somehow referring to one of the US politicians :smallbiggrin:

Great strip! I'm thinking somehow that Ian has been shifting heavily towards Chaotic neutral - this "CN is insane alignment" thing, you know?" Well, he hasn't committed evil acts, but insane it is.

So far, we have seen several CG characters. Elan, Haley, Shojo... all lovably characters. Now its Ian turn to show us that you can be CG and definitely not the audience favorite.

While Tarquin shows us that you can be LN and the audiences favorite.

Nope, he is Lawful Evil. You probably made an mistake or something.

[FlawedParadigm]

Nope, he is Lawful Evil. You probably made an mistake or something.

(Facepalm)

[Sith_Happens]

What is Belkar up to? I can't shake the feeling he has an ulterior motive here. Too helpful by half.

It's called "messing with a kobold.":smallwink:

[faustin]

While Tarquin shows us that you can be LN and the audiences favorite.

Just for the record, being capable of rationalize your evilness don´t make you less evil. Tarquin is merely pulling a Palpatine favorite maxim "Galaxy must be governed by iron fist in order to avoid chaos". He is the very epitome of the Lawful Evil alignment.

[Blaznak]

Awesome. I love the brontosaurus express, by the way...

[theweathergirl]

Loving Tarquin in this strip. I also like Ian, although he isn't being very wise at the moment. I imagine that it's difficult for him to contain himself since he's face-to-face with Tarquin, who is everything that Ian hates. I don't think it's very contradictory to what we've seen of him so far.

I think Tarquin's getting a "bit" angry as well, and I'm in agreement with those of you who don't think he's fooled by Belkar.

[Cranica]

Disturbingly, I find myself agreeing with most of Tarquin's rhetoric, and not just in this strip. I hope that's only a sign of the Giant's writing talent, heh :smallbiggrin:

It seems that Belkar actually likes Ian. Hmm.

It's not so much that (most of) Tarquin's actions are actually bad. There's nothing wrong with seizing power in a chaotic environment. Where Tarquin goes wrong (outside of the obvious "burning slave letters" cases) is his motivation for doing so. Tarquin has no interest in stabilizing the region, he has no interest in the well-being of the people in it. He's a sociopath, through and through, and that, not the fact that he's conquered half the western continent, is what makes him Evil-with-a-capital-E.

On a side note, "Everyone needs my kind of stability." is probably the most threatening line Tarquin's ever delivered. It's things like that that make him honestly the scariest villain in OOTS to me. Sure, Xykon is powerful, but he's just kind of screwing around. Nale's just in it for the Evil. Redcloak, competent as he is, isn't so scary because he's got pretty good reasons for what he does; that doesn't excuse them but he's at least relatable. Tarquin, on the other hand, is just pure ruthless, cold hunger for power, and that scares the crap out of me.

[EnragedFilia]

Sure, Xykon is powerful, but he's just kind of screwing around. Nale's just in it for the Evil. Redcloak, competent as he is, isn't so scary because he's got pretty good reasons for what he does; that doesn't excuse them but he's at least relatable. Tarquin, on the other hand, is just pure ruthless, cold hunger for power, and that scares the crap out of me.

Here's my take on the villains' motivations:
Xykon: "Cliched scenery chewing villain bent on world conquest" (also, for the evulz)
Nale: Feeding his own ego.
Redcloak: A better future for goblinoids
Tarquin: To live like a god, then die and become a legend.

Now although Tarquin is certainly the coldest and most ruthless of these, I would say that Xykon is the most dangerous. After all, Tarquin would never destroy the very world he's trying to conquer no matter how bored (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) he gets. And when his triple-empire inevitably collapses in accordance with the rules of the genre, the victorious heroes and newly freed populace will be able to pick up the pieces and rebuild. If Xykon were somehow placed in control of a similarly sized empire, I imagine he would quickly get restless enough to pick another convenient target to conquer. This does make him less dangerous because it's likely he would eventually start a fight he can't win, but it also makes him more dangerous to anyone who gets caught in that fight.

Moreover, when Xykon's hypothetical evil empire finally collapsed, he would probably try to destroy it all out of spite, and just to prove he can.

[137beth]

So now Belkar is subtly helping?!? Maybe he IS developing...
Or, more likely, he wanted to see Tarquin's expression when he knocked out the files.

[El Llamita]

Awesome strip, just needed to say it.




Instant Classic.

[Tobimaro]

*Cue a zillion people thinking Belkar is good due to one ambigious act*

Nah. He's letting the slaad out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html). :smallwink:

[MoonCat]

(Facepalm)

What? He is LE.

[King Bosco III]

In regards to them using the Brontosaurus Express whereas Elan ran there before the wizard duel ended (evidenced by Qarr teleporting in after Elan freed Amun-Zora), I like to think Dashing Swordsmen have a class feature that let them run at the speed of plot, but only if they're off-screen.

Would that be extraordinary or supernatural?

Extraordinary, definitely. No spells or plane shifts, just moving really quickly. Therefore, "dashing," haha.



I agree with EnragedFilia's assessment of the villains, but what about the MitD? Being too stupid to understand isn't good enough. Additionally, what is its alignment?

[rbetieh]

What? He is LE.

Only by the definitions of those that constrain themselves to an unreasonable Alignment system. Some enlightened souls have moved beyond that already. :smallwink:

[Landis963]

I agree with EnragedFilia's assessment of the villains, but what about the MitD? Being too stupid to understand isn't good enough. Additionally, what is its alignment?

Possibly Something Neutral. It seems too oblivious to understand that his actions hurt others, and I'm not sure whether following Xykon or Redcloak counts as being "Lawful" or not.

[EnragedFilia]

I don't think MitD has really done enough to draw reliable conclusions

So far it's:
spent the first 350 or so strips standing around being funny;
accidentally knocked Miko out of a tower;
spent another 100 strips standing around;
tried to have a tea party;
been outsmarted by Haley and Belkar;
made friends with an enemy prisoner;
accidentally saved that prisoner along with a main protagonist;
and tried unsuccessfully to understand what happened and search for his lost friend.

None of these seem to indicate any particular motivation beyond "attempt to follow orders", much less an alignment. Unless of course "being funny" counts as a motivation, but everybody does that!

[thereaper]

Am I the only one who saw that they weren't in the city and immediately concluded that Tarquin's special job for Roy would be some side quest that would coincidentally level he and Belkar back up to the level of the rest of the party?

I mean, it seemed completely obvious to me, but now I'm not so sure...

[Werbaer]

I know a few people have already mentioned "facist"/fascist, but I don't think I've ever seen a typo in the comic before this one. Could this be the first?
1. There have been several typos before. Usually corrected in the printed books, but rarely in the online comic.
2. If you assume "facist" is a typo, then this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) contains a typo, too.

[Raistlin82]

HA!

Classic Belkar...

[DougTheHead]

Just for the record, being capable of rationalize your evilness don´t make you less evil.
You sound just like my guidance counselor. But one day I'll show you! Along with my guidance counselor, and all the world's fools! Hahaha!

[Clovis]

What is Belkar up to? I can't shake the feeling he has an ulterior motive here. Too helpful by half.
Well, Belkar is a halfling. Sorry, couldn't resist! :smallredface:

[Kareasint]

Am I the only one who saw that they weren't in the city and immediately concluded that Tarquin's special job for Roy would be some side quest that would coincidentally level he and Belkar back up to the level of the rest of the party?

I mean, it seemed completely obvious to me, but now I'm not so sure...

Side quests take forever though. Roy does need to level at some point to pay for that swing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html). Given that he beat Thog solo, he probably got a fair amount of experience from that fight.

[Jay R]

In regards to them using the Brontosaurus Express whereas Elan ran there before the wizard duel ended (evidenced by Qarr teleporting in after Elan freed Amun-Zora), I like to think Dashing Swordsmen have a class feature that let them run at the speed of plot, but only if they're off-screen.

Would that be extraordinary or supernatural?

Theatrical. "Relax... Trust your dramatic instincts, Elan. The scene calls out to you, asking you to arrive in the nick of time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html)"

But we should realize that this strip has set a major revenge sub-plot in motion. They won’t be able to hide what they’ve done forever, and they will pay for it eventually.

Someday, somehow, Elan will find out that he missed the dinosaur ride!

[BlackZaitan]

Am I the only one who seem surprised that Ian and Tarquin seem to know each other very personal?

Ian's dialog with Tarquin was waaaay to personal to just be "Hey Evil overlord vs Peace-activist" by my account. Though Tarquin didn't recognize Ian seem to perfectly who Tarquin is. He also seems to have a huge grudge against Tarquin. They KNOW each other very personal!

Also, GREAT STRIP! LOVE THIS WEPCOMIC!

[Peelee]

Am I the only one who seem surprised that Ian and Tarquin seem to know each other very personal?

Ian's dialog with Tarquin was waaaay to personal to just be "Hey Evil overlord vs Peace-activist" by my account. Though Tarquin didn't recognize Ian seem to perfectly who Tarquin is. He also seems to have a huge grudge against Tarquin. They KNOW each other very personal!

It doesn't seem to me like they know each other all that well, or at least that Tarquin isn't incredibly familiar with Ian. Just enough that T does recognize him at the moment, but for some reason Ian has done something before to make him stick out. Perhaps in letting himself be captured, the elder Starshine did something quite spectacular?

I'm also not a fan of the theory that he sees some relation to Haley in Ian. It would be harder to see the family resemblance regardless of anything, since it's always harder with the different genders, but the beard taking up a large amount of Ian's face would also hamper Haley sharing some of his looks, since you can't see half his face with that beard. That's an argument against an earlier comment, though, just thought I'd shove it in here since it was slightly tangential.

[bronnt]

Am I the only one who seem surprised that Ian and Tarquin seem to know each other very personal?

Ian's dialog with Tarquin was waaaay to personal to just be "Hey Evil overlord vs Peace-activist" by my account. Though Tarquin didn't recognize Ian seem to perfectly who Tarquin is. He also seems to have a huge grudge against Tarquin. They KNOW each other very personal!

Also, GREAT STRIP! LOVE THIS WEPCOMIC!

Hmm, I suppose it's a possibility. In the previous strip, Tarquin doesn't hang around to hear the names of the prisoners he wants released, and here, their names aren't mentioned before Belkar loses the records. It's possible that they knew each other once, and Tarquin can't recognize him. Spending years in a prison, growing a beard, and having his hair go from red to white would make it difficult for someone to identify you, especially when you're a stick figure.

Crazy Theory Warning: Ian Starshine was a member of Tarquin's old adventuring party who had a falling out, disagreeing over their plan to rule the continent. It would explain how he knows about what's going on, even from inside his jail cell, so that he can tell Roy about it.

[snikrept]

Tarquin is going to contract Roy to attack the Gate, because who in this desert is the strongest force for Chaos and against centralized power? Girard, and Tarquin is already familiar with him apparently :D

[rbetieh]

Hmm, I suppose it's a possibility. In the previous strip, Tarquin doesn't hang around to hear the names of the prisoners he wants released, and here, their names aren't mentioned before Belkar loses the records. It's possible that they knew each other once, and Tarquin can't recognize him. Spending years in a prison, growing a beard, and having his hair go from red to white would make it difficult for someone to identify you, especially when you're a stick figure.

Crazy Theory Warning: Ian Starshine was a member of Tarquin's old adventuring party who had a falling out, disagreeing over their plan to rule the continent. It would explain how he knows about what's going on, even from inside his jail cell, so that he can tell Roy about it.

Too crazy, you are assuming that Tarquin has amnesia, or forgotten what an old adventuring buddy looks like.

[rbetieh]

Tarquin is going to contract Roy to attack the Gate, because who in this desert is the strongest force for Chaos and against centralized power? Girard, and Tarquin is already familiar with him apparently :D

I bet you girard is actually mayor of free city of DOOM

[Bulldog Psion]

Crazy Theory Warning: Ian Starshine was a member of Tarquin's old adventuring party who had a falling out, disagreeing over their plan to rule the continent. It would explain how he knows about what's going on, even from inside his jail cell, so that he can tell Roy about it.

1. We've seen Tarquin's old adventuring party. Ian is not part of it.

2. Ian was in Greysky City until he was lured away by a letter and captured, while we know that Tarquin's party has been active on this continent for literally decades (see also: Nale's and Elan's age, and the fact that Nale was a [bearded] infant when Tarquin first started his conquest stuff. Your theory requires both Bozzok and Haley to have a complex shared set of completely false memories, and for Haley's father to have been absent for basically all of her lifespan.

3. Tarquin would know who Ian is instantly.

4. I doubt Tarquin would leave a powerful potential rival alive. He would be executed out of hand.

So there are crazy theories, and there are impossible theories. The theory you're offering is the second type, IMO.

[Gift Jeraff]

literally decadesNitpick: Closer to a decade and a half. The 8~ months of Tarquin as king (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), plus 15 or so years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) of "offering services" to would-be emperors. But other than that I 100% agree.

[EnragedFilia]

Here's one that's crazier but less impossible:
"Aunt Ivy", who Bozzok asked get rid of Ian for him, is the member of Tarquin's team with the three Ioun stones, possibly having used a permanent illusion of some sort to replace the real Aunt Ivy. Her plan, which Tarquin may or may not know of, is to use Ian to infiltrate Girard's organization and find a way to penetrate the gate's defenses in order to remove or otherwise contain Girard, in case he attempts to destabilize their continent-domination scheme. Not-Ivy expected to send Ian to find Girard some 10 years ago or so, but she underestimated how long consolidating the empires would take, or maybe she misjudged how stubborn Ian would be, or how paranoid and meticulously careful Girard would be about staying hidden, or maybe all three.

See? Thinking up marginally plausible theories is much easier if you build them around unseen characters.

[Gusion]

Nitpick: Closer to a decade and a half. The 8~ months of Tarquin as king (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), plus 15 or so years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) of "offering services" to would-be emperors. But other than that I 100% agree.

Strictly speaking, Tarquin isn't "King" since he rules via proxy through the Empress.

[Gift Jeraff]

Strictly speaking, Tarquin isn't "King" since he rules via proxy through the Empress.Of course, but Tarquin was directly a king for around 8 months as seen in the strips I linked and way back in #50. I'm guessing you misread what I said.

[Runeclaw]

though also looks a few orders of magnitude too big.

Are you saying that the dinosaur is hundreds or thousands of times larger than it ought to be? Er....no.

[Forikroder]

remember belkar is feigning character development, he knocked away the documents for the same reason he didnt kill haleys rival

[The_Weirdo]

Am I the only one who seem surprised that Ian and Tarquin seem to know each other very personal?

Ian is Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral. Tarquin is very much Lawful Evil, and publicly so (at least for those in on it or informed enough to tell, which includes Ian). By itself, that fact could easily drive Ian to hate Tarquin's guts, even if Tarquin *hadn't* imprisoned Ian for a really long time. Then Ian talks of freedom, which is something every Lawful Evil hates with a passion. It's not hard for them to get real angry at one another real quick under these conditions.

[factotum]

I think it's more likely that Tarquin knows Ian because he's one of the "friends on the Western Continent" who Bozzok employed to imprison him in the first place. It's possible he doesn't immediately recognise him because he looks so different after being imprisoned for so long--Ian himself said that the experience had aged him.

[Cranica]

I agree with EnragedFilia's assessment of the villains, but what about the MitD? Being too stupid to understand isn't good enough. Additionally, what is its alignment?


Courtesy of the massive compilation thread at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189676, we don't have any word from the Giant re: MITD's alignment. Personally, I'd say he seems to fall into the same Good-but-stupid category that Elan does based on his relationship with Mr. Stiffly. At the very least, we haven't seen him engaging in any Evil acts that he seems to comprehend the consequences of (a necessity for moral decision-making).

[veti]

Ever since his "change", Belkar has been downplaying the Evil side of his alignment in favour of the Chaotic side. I don't think he's any less evil - it's just that he has committed himself to the team, and the team happens to be Good.

Which means that his opportunties for evil are (slightly) reduced. The old Belkar might have tried to cut his own deal with Tarquin, but that's not an option for the new, committed version.

What strikes me most about him is that he's having fun. If the OOTS were a real campaign, Belkar's player would be having - and contributing - more "fun" to the sessions than anyone else. That's the real gap he's going to leave in the party when he finally carks it, and I don't see any feasible replacement.

[Cranica]

What strikes me most about him is that he's having fun. If the OOTS were a real campaign, Belkar's player would be having - and contributing - more "fun" to the sessions than anyone else. That's the real gap he's going to leave in the party when he finally carks it, and I don't see any feasible replacement.

If he dies in the fight with Xykon, there may not need to be a replacement, since the story is over at that point.

[factotum]

If he dies in the fight with Xykon, there may not need to be a replacement, since the story is over at that point.

That's a big if. Personally I think both Belkar and Durkon will die *before* the final confrontation with Xykon--Durkon's prophecy says he returns home posthumously, and we know that Kraagor's Gate is somewhere near Dwarven lands. As for Belkar, he has a matter of a few weeks left at most, and I'm not sure there'll be the in-comic time to have *two* major confrontations with Xykon in that time (one at Girard's, one at Kraagor's Gate).

[Garwain]

Go Belkar, work that +20 ring of comedical jumping!


I wanna know where the huge amounts of vegetation that a brontosaurus must eat come from in a desert.
If you can keep a red dragon overconsume...

[Locnil]

Go Belkar, work that +20 ring of comedical jumping!


If you can keep a red dragon overconsume...

But the dragon needs meat, not vegetables. Which is somewhat more easy to find in a desert. (Plus, a larger budget is probably set apart for feeding your head of state than a glorified pack mule).



Also, now that I think of it, wouldn't Tarquin have backup copies of those files around the palace? It wouldn't be terribly genre savvy of him i he didn't.

[rbetieh]

Ian is Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral. Tarquin is very much Lawful Evil, and publicly so (at least for those in on it or informed enough to tell, which includes Ian). By itself, that fact could easily drive Ian to hate Tarquin's guts, even if Tarquin *hadn't* imprisoned Ian for a really long time. Then Ian talks of freedom, which is something every Lawful Evil hates with a passion. It's not hard for them to get real angry at one another real quick under these conditions.

Wait, why should LE hate freedom? That's makes no sense. Consider this hypothetical qoute "we here in the land of X are special. We are the true children of the gods, the chosen ones. We deserve to be free because we are special. Not like our neighbors in Y. They are an evil group that want nothing but to take your freedom away and make you believe in their gods. That you haven't seen their army does not mean one does not exist. It is my job as leader of you free people to protect your freedoms. That is why we are goint to war to end their threat, and take their resources so they can never threaten you again. Now, we will need to levy a tax to do this, it will be twice the cost of the war, we need the extra money for some extra undefined costs but you never know"......

Does this evil guy believe in freedom, probably, but his racism and nationalism pervert any good qualities, turning him evil. Tarquin seems to believe that all people deserve peace, and peace comes from stabilitty, which requires strong government to maintain order and security. And those that don't agree should be removed.....T could easily get along with Bozz or Hank, even Roy and Celia, so long as they never see him commiting an evil act...too late for that!

[hamishspence]

Even if he might want "freedom from the oppression of other nations" for his people, he's likely to oppose other people's "freedom to disagree" "freedom to choose another leader" and so on.

Still, a case can be made that his Lawfulness doesn't have to manifest itself that way.

"The right to protest" or "the right to disagree" might be kept- and the Evilness might only manifest itself as "cruelty to those that deserve it/cruelty in order to protect the many".

You could have a Lawful head of state security, who has no problem whatsoever with traditional manifestations of freedom, but who tortures people (and the relatives of people) in order to extract information from suspects. Or who sentences criminals to torturous deaths.

[Ftep]

I'm not certain if this has been discussed before, but it might be possible that Tarquin's job offer for Roy is going to be something to the effect of, "I'd like you to be the bodyguard for my son and his girlfriend as they head towards this Girard guy's place." Stunned silence from the OotS for a moment. Then Roy says, "Deal."

It would be a way to neatly wrap up the Tarquin storyline, get the group back together, and send them off towards Girard's gate.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm not certain if this has been discussed before, but it might be possible that Tarquin's job offer for Roy is going to be something to the effect of, "I'd like you to be the bodyguard for my son and his girlfriend as they head towards this Girard guy's place." Stunned silence from the OotS for a moment. Then Roy says, "Deal."

It would be a way to neatly wrap up the Tarquin storyline, get the group back together, and send them off towards Girard's gate.

Definite possibility that has been brought up as early as when Tarquin first offered the job possibility.

[Knaight]

Are you saying that the dinosaur is hundreds or thousands of times larger than it ought to be? Er....no.

Given that each doubling in length is 8 times the mass, an order of magnitude (hereafter referred to as an Oom) is only a hair over a doubling. Given how bad people tend to be at intuitively understanding scale, up to 2 Oom is entirely reasonable.

[Kancsar]

@Runeclaw - Of course this is a DnD3.5-inspired universe, so there is no correct size for the creature called the "Brontosaurus express", but given that Roy has identified Brontosaurus as an Apatosaurus (and Tarquin didn't correct him), and given the dimensions of an Apatosaurus, presented visually here , then OotS 814 panel 1 and the subsequent close-ups of Roy, Tarquin, et al., suggest the thing they are riding on is many times longer/taller/wider than a historical Apatosaurus.

The scale change is so great I suspect it is there for a plot reason, such as being able to hoist a Jabba's Barge-sized palace on its back (though not a God of War Cronos-sized being carrying a Palace of Pandora). Hence, given the rest of the Star Wars-themed events in this story arc, I am wondering if we can look forward to Nale (in his black costume) fighting Tarquin (Bobba Fett? Mercenary with a distinctive helmet), with the greater-than-Jabba-sized Empress looking on, and possibly gold bikini references for fan service (which I predict will appear on Elan before one appears on Haley).

@Knaight - yes, i was referring to the increase in volume, not just linear dimension, so a factor of ~x5 on each axis is enough for a x100 increase in volume.

cheers
k


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apatosaurus_scale_mmartyniuk_wiki.png

[DaveMcW]

Wait, why should LE hate freedom? That's makes no sense. Consider this hypothetical quote...

Some LE governments may use doublethink and propaganda to redefine freedom, but they are still opposed to the true meaning of the word.

[rbetieh]

Some LE governments may use doublethink and propaganda to redefine freedom, but they are still opposed to the true meaning of the word.

Of course, but some might just believe that "they call it justices because its 'just-us'"....or Freedom for me but not for thee, or Elves are inferior and dont get rights period, or freedom of contract allows slavery so there,

Forms and shadows, I guess. Point is, you can believe in freedom, with caviats, and make a pretty good LE government. And the funny part is the LE government could be governing LG people and most wouldnt even realize it.

[Bonaynay]

And once again, Belkar beats up on the Kobold!

He rarely misses the opportunity!

[hamishspence]

Some LE governments may use doublethink and propaganda to redefine freedom, but they are still opposed to the true meaning of the word.

There's also the "good goals, (very) Evil means" type of Evil, which might be less opposed.

[veti]

But the dragon needs meat, not vegetables. Which is somewhat more easy to find in a desert. (Plus, a larger budget is probably set apart for feeding your head of state than a glorified pack mule).

To raise meat, you need vegetable matter to feed the animals. Unless there are digestion problems involved (e.g. humans can't digest grass), it's vastly more efficient to eat the vegetables directly. You could graze an entire herd of brontosaurus on the same patch of land needed to feed one greedy dragon.

But given the feast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) that Tarquin was able to throw at a moment's notice, I think it's safe to say that scarcity of food is not an issue for him or anyone in his immediate circle. If he wants to keep a few brontosaurus about the place, then the need to produce several tons of vegetation per day isn't likely to stand in his way.

[Roland Itiative]

I loved the hippogriff/brontosaurus joke :smallbiggrin: The conflict of two diametrically opposed alignments was also nice.

And now I wonder what Haley's dad did to deserve imprisonment... For Tarquin to have any recollection of him, it must have been something pretty big.

[The_Weirdo]

Of course, but some might just believe that "they call it justices because its 'just-us'"....or Freedom for me but not for thee, or Elves are inferior and dont get rights period, or freedom of contract allows slavery so there,

Forms and shadows, I guess. Point is, you can believe in freedom, with caviats, and make a pretty good LE government. And the funny part is the LE government could be governing LG people and most wouldnt even realize it.

The caveats that a LE would impose upon freedom render the word meaningless. But assuming "good ends, evil means" - torturing criminals instead of dissidents, for instance, and allowing for disagreement with that policy - then I'll admit not all LE hate freedom (though most still do). Tarquin, however, most certainly does hate freedom (which he calls "anarchy"), and Ian, having been subjected to the Empire of Blood/Tyrnaria/etc experience, knows as much.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Okay, for those who have forgotten, we knew what Ian 'Red' Starshine looked like before his time in the clutches of Evil:

Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) with sweet little Haley

Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) with Haley at age 15 (aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale)

Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) when we first see him after his becoming changed by prison

And so you can see a side by side comparison, the one time we see Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html)'s Old and Older looks (Wow, I just noticed from his shirt sleeves when he was a youthful , Ian was buff, look at biceps on him)

If Ian was still a redhead when he arrived (likely), and has gotten thinner (very likely if one is living off nutritious parasites that one cultivates), and gotten scraggly looking (Really likely, cause he hasn't had access to a mirror surface and blade for a while if he's been keeping himself off the fight cards, plus even when he has access, getting a trim is the thing he wants the least, and you sure as heck don't want to ask for "A little off the top, please?" against guys like Thog and Belkar), then he could have been a very obvious person whom Tarquin knew quite well when he first arrived in the area, but time has changed him sufficiently that he now looks only vaguely enough like his former self for Tarquin's mind to catch subtle similarities.

Major Activist/Insurgent in the area that clashed with Tarquin, definite possibility.
Mislead conspirator who helped Tarquin overthrow a single kingdom (or maybe even a few kingdoms in quick succession) from within before learning that Tarquin and his plans were evil, possible.
Member of Tarquin's party, not a possible option.


I'm sure there are other scenarios that might make sense.
I do think that Tarquin and Ian know each other far more intimately then most of us previous believed... which means I fear Ivy and Geoff may be about to bring in a new plot twist.

[Emo Samurai]

I think I can guess at Ian's development. He was originally just a thief who was purely about himself, hence his advice to Haley. Then he discovered political ideology and came to the conclusion that absolute freedom didn't necessarily have to result in universal competition, that people could both be free AND civil. Kind of like IRL libertarians and anarchists who believe that war can not exist without the state. So refusing to lie to Tarquin would be his new persona, that of a principled rebel, while the cover stories within cover stories would be more of his old self-serving persona, which he's trying to leave behind.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think I can guess at Ian's development. He was originally just a thief who was purely about himself, hence his advice to Haley. Then he discovered political ideology and came to the conclusion that absolute freedom didn't necessarily have to result in universal competition, that people could both be free AND civil. Kind of like IRL libertarians and anarchists who believe that war can not exist without the state. So refusing to lie to Tarquin would be his new persona, that of a principled rebel, while the cover stories within cover stories would be more of his old self-serving persona, which he's trying to leave behind.I think Ian always had this ideology, he just never felt that strong about it until Mia died. Her dying words were to "Be better." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) So Ian finds out about someone who is super Evil, powerful, and ideologically opposed to Ian in every single way, and sees that as the perfect opportunity to follow what his dead wife said.

[rbetieh]

The caveats that a LE would impose upon freedom render the word meaningless. But assuming "good ends, evil means" - torturing criminals instead of dissidents, for instance, and allowing for disagreement with that policy - then I'll admit not all LE hate freedom (though most still do). Tarquin, however, most certainly does hate freedom (which he calls "anarchy"), and Ian, having been subjected to the Empire of Blood/Tyrnaria/etc experience, knows as much.

Oh certainly, Tarquin isn't about Freedom. Interestingly enough though, he is about Peace, another concept usually placed on the side of good. Point is even an idealogue with a good ideal can be of the Evil alignment, and it doesnt even matter what the ideal is. Thog is pro-puppies after all :smallwink:

[Gusion]

To raise meat, you need vegetable matter to feed the animals. Unless there are digestion problems involved (e.g. humans can't digest grass), it's vastly more efficient to eat the vegetables directly. You could graze an entire herd of brontosaurus on the same patch of land needed to feed one greedy dragon.

But given the feast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) that Tarquin was able to throw at a moment's notice, I think it's safe to say that scarcity of food is not an issue for him or anyone in his immediate circle. If he wants to keep a few brontosaurus about the place, then the need to produce several tons of vegetation per day isn't likely to stand in his way.

Really? I can't even believe we're discussing this. It is called magic. Canonical spells have a create food and water spell as a 3rd level cleric spell (3 people or 1 horse per day per level.) They likely created a "greater" version capable of feeding the brontosaurus.

[dtilque]

Okay, for those who have forgotten, we knew what Ian 'Red' Starshine looked like before his time in the clutches of Evil:

Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) with sweet little Haley

Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) with Haley at age 15 (aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale)
Also, what he looked like when Haley was 19: OotS#608 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html) panel 9.


If Ian was still a redhead when he arrived (likely),

He was. In OotS#758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) last panel, he says "they used to call me Red, but three years of malnutrition will do a number on your hair color."



I'm sure there are other scenarios that might make sense.
I do think that Tarquin and Ian know each other far more intimately then most of us previous believed... which means I fear Ivy and Geoff may be about to bring in a new plot twist.

Intimately? I thought it's been established that Tarquin doesn't swing that way. :smallwink:

But yes, I agree that there's more backstory there than we currently know.

[Jay R]

What fascinates me is how easily Ian got under Tarquin's skin and broke his insouciance. Neither Elan nor Gannji could do that, even when trying to kill him.

[rewinn]

Maybe now we know why Ian keeps getting caught:

Ian [sneaking through the back streets, away from prison and toward freedom]

Guard: "Good evening, citizen."

Ian: "Stop oppressing me, you lackey of facism!"

Guard [arrests Ian]

[Ron Miel]

You could wello be right, and the clues that his sister and Brother-in-law are betraying him were red herrings planted by The Giant.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh certainly, Tarquin isn't about Freedom. Interestingly enough though, he is about Peace, another concept usually placed on the side of good. Point is even an idealogue with a good ideal can be of the Evil alignment, and it doesnt even matter what the ideal is. Thog is pro-puppies after all :smallwink:

Peace. Safety. Harmony. Those are usually placed on the side of good, yes. But Tarquin's peace is accomplished through war abroad and horrific violence at home. Tarquin's safety comes at the expense of freedoms. And Tarquin's harmony means harmony with what HE deems correct. Again, these are just words for him. It's impossible to reconcile what he does with a reasonable notion of peace, really. Yes, it is possible to have a Good ideal and do evil in its name. But Tarquin doesn't have a Good ideal. He would not have one even if the state he created ensured the well-being of the population - which it doesn't. Basically, Tarquin isn't *really* about any concept on the side of good. He is very much about disfigured mockeries of some "good" concepts, though.

[rbetieh]

{{scrubbed}}

[hamishspence]

"blind to one's own evil behaviour" is a pretty common trope for Evil characters in D&D.

What a character thinks they're like can be very different from what they're actually like.

[Burner28]

There is also the matter of the fact that Tarquin's goals are indeed selfish so yeah, he really isn't morally ambiguous as you may think.

[rbetieh]

There is also the matter of the fact that Tarquin's goals are indeed selfish so yeah, he really isn't morally ambiguous as you may think.


Not that I am arguing that there is a moral ambiguity here, only that evil people sometimes have good motivations case in point...the Starshine Plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)

Seriously, how is this guy CG he keeps over 60% of the profit of an illegal activity for himself. If he keeps it up, he'll be the richest guy in the world.

Maybe these people are just doing the right thing in the most evil manner (http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2006/7/7/how-to-make-a-decision.html)

[theNater]

Not that I am arguing that there is a moral ambiguity here, only that evil people sometimes have good motivations case in point...the Starshine Plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)

Seriously, how is this guy CG he keeps over 60% of the profit of an illegal activity for himself. If he keeps it up, he'll be the richest guy in the world.
Stealing is chaotic. It can also be evil if you steal from people who can't afford it(like, they'll starve to death because they can't buy food), but his plan is to rob the rich, so that's not an issue. Then, he gives money to the poor, which is a good act. That's how he's CG.

And he'll only become the richest guy in the world if he never spends the 60% he keeps. That seems unlikely. After all, he still needs food, shelter, and clothing, and stealing those directly is inefficient.

[rbetieh]

Stealing is chaotic. It can also be evil if you steal from people who can't afford it(like, they'll starve to death because they can't buy food), but his plan is to rob the rich, so that's not an issue. Then, he gives money to the poor, which is a good act. That's how he's CG.

And he'll only become the richest guy in the world if he never spends the 60% he keeps. That seems unlikely. After all, he still needs food, shelter, and clothing, and stealing those directly is inefficient.

Uh huh so Ian's philosophy is "its ok to steal from someone if I think they are too rich".... and Tarquins is "its ok to violate the civil rights of individuals if I think they are criminals"....so if Ian is Robin Hood, does that make Tarquin Batman?

Also, if you can steal money from the rich, you can steal food and clothing too, and Ian seems to have plenty of hidaways so no, he is hoarding his 60%.

[theNater]

Uh huh so Ian's philosophy is "its ok to steal from someone if I think they are too rich".... and Tarquins is "its ok to violate the civil rights of individuals if I think they are criminals"....so if Ian is Robin Hood, does that make Tarquin Batman?
That is not Tarquin's philosophy. We can see this clearly when, with murderous intent, he frames someone he knows to be innocent, for the purpose of petty revenge.

Also, if you can steal money from the rich, you can steal food and clothing too, and Ian seems to have plenty of hidaways so no, he is hoarding his 60%.
I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient. Humans eat somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 pounds of food per day. According to the SRD, 5 pounds of gold is worth 250 gp. He could steal 5 pounds of food a day, every day; or he could steal 5 pounds of gold once, give 40% of it away, and use the rest as his food budget for the next two years. Stealing money and spending it on food is a far better way to feed oneself than stealing food.

[rbetieh]

That is not Tarquin's philosophy. We can see this clearly when, with murderous intent, he frames someone he knows to be innocent, for the purpose of petty revenge.


Ganji is a kidnapper and an extortionist, there is nothing "innocent" about Ganji, except that he was not guilty of the crime that they sent him to prison for, but instead guilty of other crimes. Oh and arresting Thog for public urination was a public service, there is a very famous episode of sienfeld on this very subject. The other arrests were for illegal entry into the empire, which is also a crime. Tarquins philosophy of "I can violate your civil liberties as long as I think you are a criminal" stands. That the punishment often doesnt fit the crime is an entirely different matter.

[theNater]

Ganji is a kidnapper and an extortionist, there is nothing "innocent" about Ganji, except that he was not guilty of the crime that they sent him to prison for, but instead guilty of other crimes. Oh and arresting Thog for public urination was a public service, there is a very famous episode of sienfeld on this very subject. The other arrests were for illegal entry into the empire, which is also a crime. Tarquins philosophy of "I can violate your civil liberties as long as I think you are a criminal" stands. That the punishment often doesnt fit the crime is an entirely different matter.
Gannji's "kidnapping" activities are legal in the Empire of Blood, and the "extortion" was clearly a joke(he was threatening the room with a can of tomato soup, as you'll recall). As far as we know, neither Gannji nor Enor has committed any crime, yet Tarquin arranged to have them both sentenced to death.

[rbetieh]

Gannji's "kidnapping" activities are legal in the Empire of Blood, and the "extortion" was clearly a joke(he was threatening the room with a can of tomato soup, as you'll recall). As far as we know, neither Gannji nor Enor has committed any crime, yet Tarquin arranged to have them both sentenced to death.

disturbing the peace, damaging the property of a legitimate business owner, attempted murder....Ganji didn't do those things as well eh? Oh and if you go to a library and threaten to blow it up with a can of soup, you go to jail, maybe not for long but the cops are still going to take you for a ride...

[hamishspence]

Coercing wife candidates into marriage, crucifying escaped slaves and setting them on fire, and so on do seem to suggest that Tarquin's not really concerned about "the good of others."

[Kish]

disturbing the peace, damaging the property of a legitimate business owner, attempted murder....Ganji didn't do those things as well eh?
He didn't break any laws in the Empire of Blood. For all the things you just listed, he would have been allowed to walk away if Kilkil hadn't "lost" the paperwork on the bounty, because it's perfectly legal to kill someone for asking about a bounty in the Empire of Blood. You're trying to have it both ways; "Tarquin doesn't act against anyone who doesn't break either the deranged laws of the Empire of Blood, or the sensible laws that apply in other places" could be rendered a lot more easily and at least as accurately as "Tarquin doesn't act against anyone Tarquin doesn't want to act against." If you really think Tarquin has any moral restrictions at all, it would make more sense to point out that no one in the Empire of Blood has "civil rights." Why are you arguing this?

[martianmister]

Tarquin manifestly believes that the people who have lived under "anarchy," and all people everywhere, have a brighter future in his chains. So he has palingenetic ultranationalism coming out of his ears, by the definition at that link. Does that specifically make him a fascist (or a facist, as the case may be)? I don't know whether that's what makes him one, but I'd certainly say he is one. Independently of that argument and this thread, are you, Doug, seriously saying you consider Tarquin not to be a fascist?

No nationalism > No ultranationalism > No palingentic ultranationalism > No fascism...

[rbetieh]

Coercing wife candidates into marriage, crucifying escaped slaves and setting them on fire, and so on do seem to suggest that Tarquin's not really concerned about "the good of others."

I didnt say he was a saint, or that he wasnt evil for that matter, just that there is no reason to believe that peace is not one of his motivations. I assume the marriage thing is a way to legitimize some emperial aquizitions; which we know used to happen. You should try to avoid the whole "All my ancestors were evil, but I know better and am not" argument, there is no guarantee that your grandchildren might not think the same thing about yourself one day.


He didn't break any laws in the Empire of Blood. For all the things you just listed, he would have been allowed to walk away if Kilkil hadn't "lost" the paperwork on the bounty, because it's perfectly legal to kill someone for asking about a bounty in the Empire of Blood. You're trying to have it both ways; "Tarquin doesn't act against anyone who doesn't break either the deranged laws of the Empire of Blood, or the sensible laws that apply in other places" could be rendered a lot more easily and at least as accurately as "Tarquin doesn't act against anyone Tarquin doesn't want to act against." If you really think Tarquin has any moral restrictions at all, it would make more sense to point out that no one in the Empire of Blood has "civil rights." Why are you arguing this?

Who says I can't have it both ways? If Ganji had not acted in a way that would make him face a judge, Tarquin would not have put him in jail, simple as that. Or do you believe that Tarquin planted Roy and Belkar in that bar? And the right to Unionize and Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0717.html) fall under the Civil Rights of Speech and association, so wheres the contradiction?

[hamishspence]

You should try to avoid the whole "All my ancestors were evil, but I know better and am not" argument, there is no guarantee that your grandchildren might not think the same thing about yourself one day.

In the context of D&D though, it seems to be the case, based on most of the splatbooks (and arguably, the PHB as well) that the acts considered "evil" tend to be the ones considered "evil" by modern society.

Slavery, torture, genocidal warfare, and so on.

Since it's written in the present day, it really can't take into account "future morality".

[rbetieh]

In the context of D&D though, it seems to be the case, based on most of the splatbooks (and arguably, the PHB as well) that the acts considered "evil" tend to be the ones considered "evil" by modern society.

Slavery, torture, genocidal warfare, and so on.

Since it's written in the present day, it really can't take into account "future morality".

No argument. Like I said, I do not dispute that Tarquin is Evil, I dispute only that Tarquins intentions are also completely evil and that no good can come from his actions. If that were true, then there is no path by which a societies morality could have evolved to where we can say that our past morality was evil compared to our present morality, see? I take Tarquin at his word when he says his plan will eventually promote peace and save millions from needless bloodshed in the future, that doesn't make him a good guy but it leaves the door open for others to "goodify" his plan and repackage it, which is what we humans tend to do anyways.

[hamishspence]

True. I'm a little cautious about Tarquin's attributed good results though- seems to me more like an after the fact justification, than a goal that he had in mind when he started the scheme.

[rbetieh]

True. I'm a little cautious about Tarquin's attributed good results though- seems to me more like an after the fact justification, than a goal that he had in mind when he started the scheme.

Could be, its impossible to know for sure until the plan is complete, which probably wont happen. I can give some anectdotal evidence that Tarquin is thinking about maintaining the plan in the future though:

What would ruin the plan is having the big 3 go to war with each other and Tarquin is taking steps to prevent this from happening. First is mixing up the partners, this ensures that the 6 dont grow apart from each other. It keeps them relating to each other, which will prevent them from wanting to fight each other. Second, Tarquin is thinking about succession, as can be seen by his expulsion of Nale. Nale is bad for the plan, because he would definately attack the other 2 empires, if Tarquin had believed Nale a good succesor for himself, he wouldnt have sided with the empress of Blood. Here that whole killing Malacks kids thing is also playing into the notion that Nale wants power for himself only and wouldnt share, as Tarquin does.

I have wondered if this isnt what Tarquin wants Roy for after all. Tarquin doesnt seem to be above working with Good people, and he probably realizes that once the plan is complete, it doesnt matter if "regime change" happens through a toppling or through rigged peacefull elections. And something tells me that once the Peace is established, the good Roy would actually try to keep the peace, in a good way for a good reason. Also, this realizes Elans dream of having Roy as a half brother :smallsmile: