No XP for my players

[Brumski]

I don't know how typical this is, but in the campaign I started running my players are all 20th-level, period, no more leveling up. Nobody has any Craft feats, and I've got a work-around for raising dead and what not, but then the wizard asked,
"How do I cast spells with an XP component?"
my reply,
"You can't, you have to find an NPC to cast them."

Does this change the game in a significant way? If anything I figured it nerfed the casters a little, which I think is fine.

Other opinions?

[Retech]

Question: any specific reason for doing this?

[Gnaeus]

Pathfinder removed all xp cost from spells, replacing them with expensive material components. You could do that.

But your wizard 20 is probably enough stronger than most of his teammates anyway that you may not care.

[Psyren]

Let them continue to gain XP, just don't actually advance them. That way, they have a pool from which to cast XP spells (like Wish), and if it runs out they have to go adventure for more.

[Telonius]

In the Vow of Poverty section of BoED, the book suggests allowing VoP characters to spend 1xp per 5gp when casting spells with an expensive material component. I don't see why that couldn't work in the opposite direction.

[Brumski]

I was thinking about just having it cost more gp instead of xp, I just didn't know if there was some precedence for an exchange rate, so the VoP info is nice, thanks.

I probably won't go to the trouble of calculating xp just so the wizard can throw around even more powerful spells.


Question: any specific reason for doing this?

Doing what, specifically?

[Psyren]

I was thinking about just having it cost more gp instead of xp, I just didn't know if there was some precedence for an exchange rate, so the VoP info is nice, thanks.

5gp -> 1 xp is visible in multiple places. Take Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) for instance, you can get a 25k gp item for 5k exp. This is roughly the exchange rate PF uses as well.

[tyckspoon]

The only spell I know of that uses enough XP that you might actually care is Wish (and maybe spell-stitching minions/raising intelligent undead if you're a necromancer; those can have absurd XP charges.) For anything else, whatever you're doing that's worth spending XP is going to reward enough XP to cover the cost, so it doesn't much matter.

[myancey]

Let them continue to gain XP, just don't actually advance them. That way, they have a pool from which to cast XP spells (like Wish), and if it runs out they have to go adventure for more.

I personally like this idea.

But if you and your group decided beforehand and you were upfront with your players about it--house rule it how you will.

I also like the guy's post that suggested replacing XP with an expensive material component. It provides an opportunities cost scenario equivalent to XP loss and allows the player to cast spells normally requiring XP.

I don't know how many spells actually require this--but it is obviously enough to have raised the question in your group.

[Dr.Epic]

Wait? What? Why? Why can't they advance anymore? What sense does that make? Why can't they just do what logically their characters where doing before?

[Brumski]

I might put up a campaign journal here sometime in the future to explain the fluff and whatnot around this idea.

In short, we wanted a high-powered non-epic game.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't know how typical this is, but in the campaign I started running my players are all 20th-level, period, no more leveling up. Nobody has any Craft feats, and I've got a work-around for raising dead and what not, but then the wizard asked,
"How do I cast spells with an XP component?"
my reply,
"You can't, you have to find an NPC to cast them."

Does this change the game in a significant way? If anything I figured it nerfed the casters a little, which I think is fine.

Other opinions?

Er, yes. You've removed growth. So...that's pretty major. Why no more levels?

Also note that this is a kind of poor way to nerf casters.

[myancey]

Er, yes. You've removed growth. So...that's pretty major. Why no more levels?

Also note that this is a kind of poor way to nerf casters.

Its not that bad on casters--we've determined already that not too many spells exist that require XP. Its a miniature nerf at best. And the OP was upfront with players from the get-go, so no one in his group is truly hurt by this.

And yeah, I can understand wanting to keep a campaign non-epic. Linear character progression is cool and all, but a campaign like this can get players to really focus on other things--acquisition of wealth and better roleplaying. High levels of intrigue can be introduced.

The carrot and a donkey is often close to XP and the player. When the character sees the potential for XP, it is mostly what he goes for. He worries primarily about his build, about getting the next level of spells--RP and in-depth character growth fall to the sidelines.

If this is what you want in a campaign, that's cool beans--but I don't. I love character creation. The next level, in my opinion, should come as an idealistic "Holy crud, I just gained enough XP to level. Hadn't realized I was this close."


Wait? What? Why? Why can't they advance anymore? What sense does that make? Why can't they just do what logically their characters where doing before?

Basically same argument as above.

But also, epic campaigns are often best for DMs who enjoy pulling their own hair out in frustration.

[Coidzor]

I probably won't go to the trouble of calculating xp just so the wizard can throw around even more powerful spells.

If you're not OK with the nature of Wizards...what are you doing at 20th level in otherwise apparently vanilla D&D then?


But also, epic campaigns are often best for DMs who enjoy pulling their own hair out in frustration.

...And nigh-epic ones aren't? :smallconfused:


And yeah, I can understand wanting to keep a campaign non-epic. Linear character progression is cool and all, but a campaign like this can get players to really focus on other things--acquisition of wealth and better roleplaying. High levels of intrigue can be introduced.

Thank you for invoking the stormwind fallacy in this thread, hopefully it can avoid taking on a life of its own. Also, acquisition of wealth is trivially easy to have be the focus of a game with XP, so that's so weak it's practically a non-argument. Remember the joke about adventurers being loot-obsessed hobos? Note the loot-obsessed. This generally still carries over even when they're not hobos.

High levels of intrigue can be introduced by good DMing regardless, so, this too, is a non-issue.


The carrot and a donkey is often close to XP and the player. When the character sees the potential for XP, it is mostly what he goes for. He worries primarily about his build, about getting the next level of spells--RP and in-depth character growth fall to the sidelines.

And here, he has to do all of his build worrying at once, you're trading out what could be a gradual process (but really isn't, because usually if you want to be relevant at high levels you gotta plan your build) for having to do all of the build worrying at once. Which for high-level D&D you gotta do all at once anyway, so you're comparing smoke to mirrors here.


If this is what you want in a campaign, that's cool beans--but I don't. I love character creation. The next level, in my opinion, should come as an idealistic "Holy crud, I just gained enough XP to level. Hadn't realized I was this close."

That utterance is idealistic to you? :smallconfused: What.

[Brumski]

Er, yes. You've removed growth. So...that's pretty major. Why no more levels?

Also note that this is a kind of poor way to nerf casters.

Myancey did a good job of answering these, we are focusing on other types of growth, and the "nerf" was incidental.

Would you feel better about it if we started at, say, 15th level, with the understood caveat of if the party gets to 20th, and they want to continue the campaign, they will be done leveling? What else are you suppose to do in this instance if you want to continue your campaign, and no one wants to do epic?

I was curious about how atypical this was. It was an idea I first had about 3 1/2 years ago, and just got to implement it a couple months ago. So far its been awesome.


If you're not OK with the nature of Wizards...what are you doing at 20th level in otherwise apparently vanilla D&D then?


:smallconfused: The wizard is fine, and I'm fine with wizards. The player wasn't super-familiar with all the spells in the PH (he's been playing 4th edition) and just asked his question after reading Wish. I don't really get what you're saying.

[tyckspoon]

Would you feel better about it if we started at, say, 15th level, with the understood caveat of if the party gets to 20th, and they want to continue the campaign, they will be done leveling? What else are you suppose to do in this instance if you want to continue your campaign, and no one wants to do epic?


How I'd do it? Continue awarding XP (possibly at a slowed rate because it might be quite hard to actually efficiently spend the XP you would get normally,) encourage the spellcasters to craft items/acquire and/or research new spells with XP costs, and introduce some rules for giving noncasters/crafters means of spending XP on things. Check out the E6 rules for advancement after level 6 for inspiration, probably.

[Coidzor]

:smallconfused: The wizard is fine, and I'm fine with wizards. The player wasn't super-familiar with all the spells in the PH (he's been playing 4th edition) and just asked his question after reading Wish. I don't really get what you're saying.

You don't want the wizard throwing around powerful spells, is what you seemed to be saying.


I probably won't go to the trouble of calculating xp just so the wizard can throw around even more powerful spells.

[Brumski]

You don't want the wizard throwing around powerful spells, is what you seemed to be saying.

I said even MORE powerful spells, namely Wish. Of course he should throw around powerful spells, I thought it was quite awesome when he took out an orc war party with a couple Walls of Fire and a Cloudkill. But since we had already decided that XP wasn't going to be awarded, (I'll admit to being perhaps a little lazy here) I didn't feel like worrying about it so one PC (whose already easily the strongest) can have (I don't know what the actual number is) a few more spells. If others had come to the table with builds requiring XP expenditure, it would be a different story.

[Dimers]

5gp -> 1 xp is visible in multiple places. Take Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) for instance, you can get a 25k gp item for 5k exp. This is roughly the exchange rate PF uses as well.

It's also the exchange rate for getting an NPC to cast a spell with an XP cost, in the 3.5 PHB.

[Kioku]

You're lucky to have such understanding players, is all I can say that'd be *nice.* Personally, I would never play in a game with a level cap, especially one so low. My games always go until the group is tired of their characters, or until the characters die of old age.

[tcrudisi]

It really feels like everyone is jumping on Brumski for giving the players what they wanted.


In short, we wanted a high-powered non-epic game.

So, the players wanted this type of game.

Now, as to the question: No, I don't think it's that bad. Sure, the wizard loses a few spells, but so what? There are still hundreds more. There's still many, many choices for him to choose from. Paying to have someone cast those spells is perfectly fine.

The problem to me would be if he wanted to craft items. Since you didn't mention that, I assume not so it's not so much of an issue, especially since players can just purchase any items they want anyway.

Personally, I would love to play in a game like this. I think it sounds really interesting. I would be okay playing a Wizard even though I'd lose a few spells.

[Rubik]

It's time for a build that can craft magic items and cast spells without XP costs.

There's more than one way to do it.

Heck, you can get access to Wish at level 1, if you like, and with no XP in sight.

[Little Brother]

It's time for a build that can craft magic items and cast spells without XP costs.

There's more than one way to do it.

Heck, you can get access to Wish at level 1, if you like, and with no XP in sight.I can get inherent, free wishes near-at-will by level 11, limited wish at 9. Without any item tricks.

[herrhauptmann]

I can get inherent, free wishes near-at-will by level 11, limited wish at 9. Without any item tricks.
You mean your cerebremancer wizard that gets 2 caster levels for every level in a theurgic type PrC? The one that everyone kept telling you didn't work. That one?

The only spell I know of that uses enough XP that you might actually care is Wish (and maybe spell-stitching minions/raising intelligent undead if you're a necromancer; those can have absurd XP charges.) For anything else, whatever you're doing that's worth spending XP is going to reward enough XP to cover the cost, so it doesn't much matter.

There's also mineralize warrior (Mineral Warrior template). And I'd swear I saw another spell in forgotten realms that gives the half-fiend template to the recipient. Most likely in Champ of Ruin.

[Little Brother]

You mean your cerebremancer wizard that gets 2 caster levels for every level in a theurgic type PrC? The one that everyone kept telling you didn't work. That one?You mean the one that people never came up with a reason to disprove beyond comparing it to a class that has no spell progression in the first place?

[candycorn]

Unlimited wishes at level 11 is possible. A single scroll of gate, a simulacrum spell to replicate a solar, and then use of solar wishes to make scrolls of simulacrum to cast to get more solars. As many CL 20 cleric casting solars as you need, along with their 1/day wish ability.

Generally, tricks that gain 9th level spells at levels below 15-18 are considered high cheese, at best, even when they work.

[herrhauptmann]

You mean the one that people never came up with a reason to disprove beyond comparing it to a class that has no spell progression in the first place?
1)You didn't answer my question there.
2)I gave you a similar option, wizard getting into ultimate magus with spontaneous casting feat. And you shot it down (rightly), but couldn't/wouldn't see how a similar ruling applies to your character. Nor have you able to get any of the big rules lawyers on your side, so I still have no real desire to discuss your char with you.
I just wanted to see which method you were using for wish in this case.

[Little Brother]

Unlimited wishes at level 11 is possible. A single scroll of gate, a simulacrum spell to replicate a solar, and then use of solar wishes to make scrolls of simulacrum to cast to get more solars. As many CL 20 cleric casting solars as you need, along with their 1/day wish ability.

Generally, tricks that gain 9th level spells at levels below 15-18 are considered high cheese, at best, even when they work.Getting 9th level spells at level 11 is the trick.

1)You didn't answer my question there.
2)I gave you a similar option, wizard getting into ultimate magus with spontaneous casting feat. And you shot it down (rightly), but couldn't/wouldn't see how a similar ruling applies to your character. Nor have you able to get any of the big rules lawyers on your side, so I still have no real desire to discuss your char with you.
I just wanted to see which method you were using for wish in this case.Yes it is that.
The wizard is NOT a spontaneous class. It has the ability to cast spontaneously with feats, but it is NOT a spontaneous class.
That's one massive appeal to authority. I'll bite thoug. I have Psyren on my side, and he's the biggest expert on Psionics I know, so yeah. And there were hardly any "big names" there, so it doesn't matter.

[hex0]

I'd like to suggest that feats can also be bought for XP.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd like to suggest that feats can also be bought for XP.

Isn't that similar to the E6 rules?