[Star Wars: Saga Edition] Punch Vader

[Crasical]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there was a game of Star Wars Saga. Taking place during the Dark Wars period, a party of a squib Noble merchant, a pair of Soldier droids, a human and a gungan jedi, a Miraluka scout, and me, a Zeltron scoundrel, witnessed an assassination attempt on a senator's life. Though the Senator survived, our ship crash landed on the planet tatooine... and the adventure promises to get only more dangerous from here.


That's why I decided to post here. I'm hoping that anyone else who plays this version of the game can give me a hand with making my unarmed combat skill not suck. I didn't really have a concept when I went into the game but had watched that old Jackie Chan movie Drunken Master the night before, so I made a swaggering, drunken kung fu master. And so far, I've been sucking out loud. My strength isn't great, but compared to the ready availability of blasters (which already do a -lot- of damage), I'm lagging way behind.

So, how does someone become a good unarmed fighter in Saga edition? I've considered seeing if our DM will let me change my current talent (Disruptive, which has been totally useless) to Dastardly Strike, pick up Pin and Crush, and basically choke people unconscious with the crush feat, but is there any way to make a striking-type martial art useful?

[The Reverend]

To quote another starwars player "You hit him?...With your fists?". I've never really seen anyone that wasn't a force user...or maybe a wookie really make the "unarmed combat" shtick work in SW. Melee weapon shure. But in 22 levels of killing things as a soldier I didn't spend 1 feat or talent on unarmed combat. My close combat weapon of choice? Flame thrower and grenades.

[Mando Knight]

Basic tips:
1.) Soldier is the king of combat. Though closely rivaled by the Jedi, the latter require the Force to compete in talent selection.
2.) Elite Trooper is the emperor of combat.
3.) Galaxy at War is a required book for the serious martial artist. Pages 26-28 have the unarmed combat style feats, and pages 32-33 have the Martial Arts Master.

Reasoning:
1.) Misfortune talents are only decent for an unarmed combatant if he has Pin.
2.) The Soldier gets everything he needs to wage battle: combat style specialization, armor specialization, full BAB, d10 hit dice, the right skill set... yes, the Scout has some stuff that the Soldier wants (Evasion and Uncanny Dodge in particular), and the Scoundrel can abuse the Misfortune tree if he knows how to deny Dexterity to Reflex, but it's the Soldier who can more easily hit, deal damage, lower enemy damage thresholds, dodge attacks, and so forth.
3.) The Elite Trooper is Soldier+. Bigger HD, some DR, more advanced talents... the main thing that a martial artist is looking at here, though, is the Master of Teräs Käsi talent tree from Threats of the Galaxy.
4.) Martial Arts Master is the only other class that gets access to the Teräs Käsi talents, and expands on the martial arts form feats in the same book.

For increasing unarmed melee damage, I would recommend grabbing higher levels of Martial Arts, find a Tech Specialist to trick out a pair of combat gloves, take Rapid Strike and Flurry, get Power Attack, the same general stuff for all melee characters. Unfortunately, the Melee Duelist requires Weapon Focus in one of the more advanced melee weapon types (exotic, advanced, or lightsaber), though access to its talents, which enhance Weapon Finesse, may prove worth the two otherwise wasted feats (one for weapon proficiency and another for focus)... or you could ask your DM to allow Weapon Focus in Unarmed Strike to count for the prerequisite.

But in 22 levels of killing things as a soldier I didn't spend 1 feat or talent on unarmed combat.
Martial Arts 1 gives you a boost to your Reflex Defense and helps qualify you for Elite Trooper. If you didn't even take that feat, I feel the need to question your build... if you took other combat PrCs, it should be fine, but a Soldier is best off looking to Elite Trooper.

[Crasical]

I... do not have the Galaxy at war book. Crap.

[Mando Knight]

I... do not have the Galaxy at war book. Crap.

Ask the rest of your group if they do. Poor thing was released toward the end of SAGA's printing run, so I don't know if there are quite as many hard copies floating about as, say, the Core book.

EDIT: Actually, wow. This is one of the cheaper SAGA books right now. Amazon has it for less than $30. Threats is pretty cheap right now, too. If you don't have Starships or KotOR (or the core book), though...

[Crasical]

I've got the core book only, I know our DM has the Scoundrel book, but I don't know what else. I -think- he's got a droid book...

[Mando Knight]

Alright, your GM that did good getting Scum & Villainy (it contains a lot of rules that you'll want for techies as well, not just assassins and crooks.), but he'll probably want Threats of the Galaxy (it's SAGA's Monster Manual, in effect. Has just about every non-campaign-specific enemy you'll ever need), and Starships of the Galaxy (I love this book. It's the other one techies need, as well as any DM who wants to run anything other than the basic ships for the era).

The other books are fantastic for campaigns that follow that book's focus (and mixing and matching can let you cheese out several builds), but S&V, Threats, and Starships are the three that I consider closest to being "expanded core."

[Crasical]

So start taking levels of Soldier asap, go into elite trooper, pick up rapid strike, flurry, and power attack feats is the best bet for what I've got?

[Mando Knight]

Off the top of my head, yes. Flurry is in KotOR, by the way. If you didn't already have a level in Scoundrel, you could use it instead of Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite to Elite Trooper.

[The Reverend]

I played original d20 star wars, I played literally a game or two of saga but not enough to remember. mmmm 90lb tower shield on micro repulsors wrapped phrik energy field and holding a gatling blaster on a repulsor lift.

{{scrubbed}}

[LemuneSD]

Mandos use powered gloves called Crush Gauntlets, if your GM would allow ^_^

[AlmzVendett]

Are vibroknucklers worth taking the feat for advanced melee weapons as an unarmed combatant?

[Thrysierius]

Are vibroknucklers worth taking the feat for advanced melee weapons as an unarmed combatant?

Vibro-knuckles I believe are an enhancement to unarmed combat. They do not require the Advanced Melee proficiency to use.

I don't have my books in front of me but I recall in the book that talks about Shock Boxing they even specifically state having Weapon Focus: Unarmed Combat also applied to vibro-knuckles and shock boxing knuckles.

[Alejandro]

There are some alternate Jedi paths that include martial arts things, too. Wardens of the Sky is all martial arts tricks.

[Waar]

That's why I decided to post here. I'm hoping that anyone else who plays this version of the game can give me a hand with making my unarmed combat skill not suck. I didn't really have a concept when I went into the game but had watched that old Jackie Chan movie Drunken Master the night before, so I made a swaggering, drunken kung fu master. And so far, I've been sucking out loud. My strength isn't great, but compared to the ready availability of blasters (which already do a -lot- of damage), I'm lagging way behind.

but is there any way to make a striking-type martial art useful?

Yes there is, but it requiers several feats (and later talents), many of which are not in the core rulebook.
Fist the basics: high (16+) strength and 13+ dex, martial arts I, echani training (feat, requires dex 13 and martial arts I, lets you add dubble you strength bonus to your unarmed attack, provided you only make one unarmed attack per turn), migthy blow or rapid strike.

This can be further enhanced by: martial arts II and III, Soldier talents and weapon focus(simple weapons)

Once you get acces to prestige classes: Teräs käsi basics (talent for elite trooper/martial artist, you deal an extra dice of damage with unarmed attacks),
other martial artsit talents (if available), other elite trooper talents.

Note that the basic part of this build brings you upp to 2d6+2*(str bonus) +1/2 (heroic) level ~ the damage one would do with a advanced melee weapon

As a possible alternative I found this :


Human/Zygerrian (Martial Arts I)
Str 17 (18 after lvl4)
Dex 15
Con 14 (12+2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 6 (8-2 racial)
Cha 13 (14 after lvl4)

Scoundrel 1| Sneak Attack, K'tara Training
Scoundrel 2| Skill Focus (Stealth)
Scoundrel 3| Sneak Attack, Combat Trickery
Soldier 1| Hammerblow, +Str +Cha

but it requires Galaxy at war, the unkown regions and the legacy era campagin guide

[Alejandro]

Oh, and generally, don't bother with the special grappling feats/tricks. They aren't worth the investment it takes to get good at them, when you can invest the same into unlocking things like Martial Arts Master, etc, as explained above.

[Friv]

Soldier is definitely your class of choice, although I'm going to break the mold a bit - you're going to dabble in Scoundrel, too, and in pumping up your defenses. Let me explain:

What I would suggest is making a low-tier CT killer; someone who relies more on applying condition penalties to enemies than on doing direct damage. These guys are pretty devastating, and while you won't be putting together one that just ruins everything, that's probably just as well because instant kills aren't fun.

So, here's the plan. At Level 1, you want to be a human soldier. You're starting with the two feats Pin and Crush, letting you grab people and damage them while holding them still, and with the Talent Draw Fire. This combination lets you make untrained Persuasion checks (because soldiers don't get Persuasion) to make people shoot at you by seeming the most dangerous guy on the battlefield. You will seem this because you will be charging into a mess of enemies and grabbing them; clearly you are insane.

At Level 2, you take a level of Scoundrel, and grab the Talent Dastardly Strike. This has two effects:
1) It gives you Point-Blank Shot for free, which you need to become an Elite Trooper (and you want to become an Elite Trooper if you're core-only), and
2) It lets you automatically push people down the condition track with grapples, because grapples deny enemies their Dexterity to Reflex.

At Level 3, you're a Soldier again, and you can finish the build and be properly effective. You get two feats, one for class and one for level. They are Martial Arts 1, giving you better Reflex saves and damage, and Rancor Crush, which pushes people a step down the condition track when you injure them in a grapple. You can now take out enemies with 2-3 successful grapple rolls.

From there, you want to focus on getting your defenses up, and getting Skill Training in Persuasion to make best use of your Draw Fire ability. Stay in Soldier for the next five levels, so that you'll end up Soldier 7/Scoundrel 1. This gives you another three Talents and three Feats.

My Talent suggestions are, in order, Devastating Attack (Unarmed), Armored Defense, Improved Armored Defense. This gives you a chance of punching through people's DT to inflict a third condition penalty, as well as a very strong Reflex defense.

My Feat suggestions are Skill Training (Persuasion), Martial Arts II, Mighty Swing. This gives you 2d10 + Strength damage, and even more Reflex defense.

Once you're an Elite Trooper, there's a whole talent tree that works for Unarmed Combat for you to focus on for ten levels.

[Hyena]

Pick up pin. Cruch. Rancor crush. Martial artist I. "Devastating strike (simple)". Shockboxing gloves. Large race, like togorian.
Go to town.

[ScubaGoomba]

If you can find a way to get your hands on the other splatbooks, you can see some good Close Combat skills, but not until higher levels. I helped a new player build her martial artist and the character is dishing out 3d10+9 damage/round. Granted, the first 7 levels may not be the best...

[IdleMuse]

Mando Knight mentioned it in passing, but I'll reiterate that Threats of the Galaxy is essential for a good unarmed duelist, the Teras Kasi tree is only printed there.

[Ailowynn]

Four words: Teras Kasi Talent Tree. This is pure gold. Lets you increase your unarmed damage die along with a ton of other goodies. It has a bit in TotG, and I think KotOR(?). After that, get into the Martial Artist PrC ASAP, and look at the martial arts feats in GAW. If you aren't entirely opposed to Force use, look at the Wardens of the Sky in JATM. I created some NPCs with all those and a couple other feats that got 3d12 damage unarmed at (I think) 12th level.