Make me untouchable...

[Dragonsoul]

So, as a theoretical exercise I want to see what people think of trying to make a character that is close to unkillable as possible, rather than merely doing 10^x Damage or becoming batman without your parents dying horrible deaths.

To make things slightly trickier- No spells,otherwise it becomes an affair of Turtleshape,celerity and precognition-Not the correct spirit, sure you can dip into spellcasting classes (Like into Cleric for Domain powers) but no spellcasting itself.

Of course the high end of this exercise is being able to survive a spellcaster going nuclear on your ass(Which may be tricky)/Pissed offed Barbarian yelling ChAaaArge!!.
As a starting point,
Have Drow Monk 2/Multiple dips that give +2/+2/+2 at level 1/Pious templear/ Forsaker 10

This gives you saves of around +50/+50/+50 Mettle,Evasion and SR 50,

To make things slightly easier Assume Partial BAB and saves.

Now Edited for readability:smallbiggrin:

[jindra34]

To really be untouchable you need to do all that plus get an equally insane flat-footed touch AC (to resist true strike orb of force spam) and some way to reduce the amount of damage each spell deals to you (as there are spells that are no save, no sr, no attack roll just eat some damage).

[Gavinfoxx]

Forsaker? Forsaker? The class that has to destroy magic items and not use them?

I would posit a new starting point:

Human Wizard 20.

This way, you don't have to worry about saves and stuff in the first place, because you have altered reality so that you won't have to make them at all.

In essence, you will have to actually build that schroedinger wizard that has contingencies and paranoia planned for every possible situation ever. Note that such a character IS possible to build, it is just very difficult.. but such a character is generally best made as a Wizard...

[jindra34]

Forsaker? Forsaker? The class that has to destroy magic items and not use them?

I would posit a new starting point:

Human Wizard 20.

This way, you don't have to worry about saves and stuff in the first place, because you have altered reality so that you won't have to make them at all.

In essence, you will have to actually build that schroedinger wizard that has contingencies and paranoia planned for every possible situation ever. Note that such a character IS possible to build, it is just very difficult.. but such a character is generally best made as a Wizard...

And we are supposed to due this without casting spells. I honestly don't think its possible.

[Kenneth]

Be a rock.

a rock can never die


not dieing is the definition of unkillable

close to unkillabel is what you are asking for

so again

Be a rock.

[Dragonsoul]

>< I said no magic, When you introduce magic it become "I've read the articles about Tippy wizrds im so coool!!"


And leave Forsaker alone!,I'm fond of that class, and it lets you surprise spellcasters who think that just throwing a no Save spell at thing works every time, SR 50 is hard to beat unless your caster is prepped to beat a character with SR 50.

[jindra34]

All the orb spells simply rely on just a ranged touch attack, no sr or saving throw allowed. And then there are spells like Hail of Stones that simply do (pitiful) damage without any defense. And some tricks for a sorcerer can enable essential infinite casting of said spells in one turn. Nigh-impossible to stop without counterspelling (which means casting).

[Aegis013]

See if you can play an Awakened Ikea Tarrasque?
(Awakened Lernean Multi-Headed Half Clay Golem Bat Swarm)

They have an int score, and as long as you can pass the half clay golem will save to not lose your con score and become mindless, you have magic immunity from half clay golem, except for a few specific spells that can't touch you due to swarm traits and flying. Plus you have immunity to slashing and piercing and can't die unless your 10,000 heads are severed and 5 points of fire damage applied to each of the stumps individually, while individual members of a swarm can't be targeted.

The hardest part of this is probably getting to play an Awakened Swarm. That's pretty wonky. Be a Hellwasp swarm if you want to do better damage, Bat Swarm is just the lowest CR and still maintaining flight.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, I'm saying that he needs to change his starting point and his initial request, as, as written, this is impossible to do without using magic in D&D 3.5e system.

Also, you do know that lots of spells ignore SR?

[jindra34]

See if you can play an Awakened Ikea Tarrasque?
(Awakened Lernean Multi-Headed Half Clay Golem Bat Swarm)

They have an int score, and as long as you can pass the half clay golem will save to not lose your con score and become mindless, you have magic immunity from half clay golem, except for a few specific spells that can't touch you due to swarm traits and flying. Plus you have immunity to slashing and piercing and can't die unless your 10,000 heads are severed and 5 points of fire damage applied to each of the stumps individually, while individual members of a swarm can't be targeted.

The hardest part of this is probably getting to play an Awakened Swarm. That's pretty wonky. Be a Hellwasp swarm if you want to do better damage, Bat Swarm is just the lowest CR and still maintaining flight.

Unfortunately half-clay golem's Magic immunity is covered under the general update so it now only works on things that normally allow SR. So far from an IKEA Tarrasque.

[Aegis013]

Unfortunately half-clay golem's Magic immunity is covered under the general update so it now only works on things that normally allow SR. So far from an IKEA Tarrasque.

Thank you for informing me! That's a bit disappointing. I stumbled onto that Ikea Tarrasque set up recently and didn't realize it's out of date.

Edit: Could you point me in the direction of this general update? It would be greatly appreciated.

[JaronK]

A Learnean Lumi is ECL 10 (4 Outsider HD + 6 LA) and can only die from Disintegrate. Nothing else. You're also immune to blindness and a bunch of other things, and get amazing TWF abilities.

So, throw on a few Warblade levels so you can get Iron Heart Surge and thus can shrug off status effects (and have a high Concentration for saving against Disintegrate with the appropriate maneuver) and you should be good to go.

JaronK

[jindra34]

Thank you for informing me! That's a bit disappointing. I stumbled onto that Ikea Tarrasque set up recently and didn't realize it's out of date.

Edit: Could you point me in the direction of this general update? It would be greatly appreciated.

Its the MM2 update pdf thats buried somewhere in the WoTC site. Found it doing a quick search for Dnd MM2 update.

[Dragonsoul]

Hmmm The plan I have sketched in my head is Vow of poverty->Forsaker, Then spend all your WBL on Grafts(Which are non magical)Getting them while under Vow of Poverty is dubious, but having them is fine by RAW as They are not magic Items, I'm pretty sure getting touch up to huge 60/70 + is doable, is there any way to get regeneration, that seems to cover a lot of problems.

Naturally, any given build can be beaten, since I'm dealing with Schrödinger's Wizard who can morph his build to have every spell in the game, in his spellbook and memorised and knows exactly my build, and how to defeat it.(Even if the IC character doesn't know how to beat it).

What I'm aiming for is something that can survive 99% of the stuff in the game, I'd like a character that can walk into a room full of all the Monsters in a given manuel, sit down and read a book

[Diefje]

Max out Perform(Dance)

http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/64538.jpg

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starmantle Cloak (BoED, 132,000 gp)
Continuous item of Extraordinary Spell Aimed (CV) Antimagic Field (198,000 gp)
Continuous item of Ray Deflection (SpC) (112,000 gp)
Command Word item usable 5/day of Energy Immunity (SpC) (118,800 gp)
Continuous item of Greater Invisibility (224,000 gp)
Hat of Anonymity (MIC) at caster level 20 (28,750 gp)
Continuous item of Camouflage (SpC) (3,000 gp)
Continuous item of Chameleon (XPH) (3,000 gp)
Darkstalker feat (LoM), a considerably high Hide skill bonus.

What this accomplishes:
Any weapon striking you, whether melee or ranged, does so from within an Antimagic Field, and is rendered nonmagical at the time when it strikes you. The Starmantle effect causes any nonmagical weapon that strikes you, regardless of whether it's a manufactured or natural weapon, to be automatically destroyed leaving you unharmed.

Ray Deflection makes ranged touch attacks automatically fail to hit you.

Energy Immunity x5 makes you immune to all five energy types, all day every day.

To use any Divination spell against you, including See Invisibility and True Seeing, requires a caster level check at a DC 35. An opponent must be able to see through the invisibility to have line of sight to use a targeted spell against you. Due to Darkstalker, they cannot use Blindsight, Tremorsense, or similar to detect you unless they make a Spot check against your Hide check, including the bonuses from Invisibility, Chameleon, and Camouflage, which probably takes a Spot check in the seventies.

Weapons cannot harm your character, even natural weapons are destroyed on impact. Spells that make a ranged touch attack cannot harm you, they automatically miss. Targeted spells that don't require an attack roll cannot be used against you unless the caster can somehow achieve line of sight. Area of effect spells usually do some sort of energy damage, all five of which you're immune to.

Searing Spell and Piercing Cold area effect spells can harm you. Spells that make a regular attack roll rather than a ranged touch attack, such as Icelance, Splinterbolt, and Cloud of Knives, can harm you if they even hit considering you're invisible. An opponent who can see through your invisibility or who can Spot check you with Blindsight can use a targeted spell against you. There's a few other things, but I've covered most of what you'll encounter in a typical game, and any character can accumulate this combination of items/effects.

[Gotterdammerung]

Indeed,

Schrödinger's Wizard is probably the most powerful PC in the game!


I love it when players try to rationalize that kinda crap, especially in game.


"Hmmmm, my knowledge check showed me that I can only kill this shoestring golem with a casting of animate rope. Good thing I always prep animate rope! ~.,^ *wink wink*"

[Gavinfoxx]

Doesn't this sort of wizard just regularly spend one day a week on a series of divinations?

[jindra34]

Hail of Stones targets is AoE, does not do energy damage, and is usable in Sanctum Arcane Fusion abuse. If it were not for the fact that it only dealt d4's it would be seriously to strong (and still might be) for being a basic 1st level spell.

[Dragonsoul]

Nope, they Typically spend 10 minutes buffing you plan to attack them, or he goes through this ritual every day...despite all those material components, couldn't I win by staying in the local burrito bar and waiting for the wizard to bankrupt himself?

[Emperor Tippy]

Then you will fail. Schrodinger's Wizard is largely possible because of one spell; Shapechange. Between 5 Monster Manuals and dozens of books there are very few abilities you can't find as supernatural abilities on some monster (Astral Projection from Nightmares, for example). With the Zodar you can get a free Wish every round.

Even leaving aside that issue, there are a ton of ways to kill a character that completely ignore AC. Disjunction+Dimensional Lock+Barred Force Cage+Decanter of Endless Water+Bag of Tricks+Resilient Sphere will kill 99% of non caster builds 99% of the time without any regard for their saves, AC, health, or special abilities.

And with Time Stop all of that can be done in one round.

Round 1: Quickened Disjunction (Greater Rod of Quicken), Maximized Time Stop (Greater Rod of Maximize)
Round 1.1: Barred Forcecage
Round 1.2: Place Decanter of Endless Water on Geyser mode on ground next to cage facing away from cage, activate it.
Round 1.3: Cast Dimensional Lock
Round 1.4: Drop an animal from a Bag of Tricks on the ground
Round 1.5: Ready an action to cast Resilient Sphere Targeted on the animal drawn in the last apparent round.

Now wait for the fighter type to drown. Unless he gets lucky and manages to save an item that can take out a forcecage and/or dispel a Dimensional Lock then he is screwed.

[Gotterdammerung]

Oh and I played an unarmed swordsage 10 forsaker 10 spellwarped dwarf with the Vow of Poverty once.

52 SR massive touch ac and great saves went pretty far versus spellcasters.

There were some close calls but massive HP and swordsage tricks gave plenty of leeway.


I retired him at 20 after facing many spellcasters.

The fact that they didn't know my weaknesses on round 1 was usually enough to close the gap as well.

There were a couple of spell casters I faced that were obviously designed to kill me. But in those cases, specializing to kill me opened up weaknesses the rest of my party could exploit.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tippy: What if the fighter can breathe water or has a bottle of air?

[Aegis013]

Tippy: What if the fighter can breathe water or has a bottle of air?

Wouldn't disjunction take care of the bottle of air? Though water breathing still poses a possibility, but the fighter type would be neutralized.

[CIDE]

What about the Regen+Construct or Undead as a start? Already rules out non-fire or acid damage. Just as a start, of course. Before even getting into the class stuff.

[Gotterdammerung]

Round 1: Quickened Disjunction (Greater Rod of Quicken), Maximized Time Stop (Greater Rod of Maximize)
Round 1.1: Barred Forcecage
Round 1.2: Place Decanter of Endless Water on Geyser mode on ground next to cage facing away from cage, activate it.
Round 1.3: Cast Dimensional Lock
Round 1.4: Drop an animal from a Bag of Tricks on the ground
Round 1.5: Ready an action to cast Resilient Sphere Targeted on the animal drawn in the last apparent round.



I guess a Vop Forasaker is the 1%?

Disjunction does nothing to him.
Freedom of movement lets him slip through the bars.
He hasn't taken a breath since lvl 12 so drowning isn't a threat.
Dim lock has SR. And even if it overcomes it there is no threat.
Resilient sphere is single target and if you are going to try to use it to include everyone in the area then everyone potentially affected should get a save.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, right, I would assume that fighter types in challenge would want to stack lots of LA+0 or LA+1 templates and grafts and things which are considered 'non magical', or an inherent part of the character, as absolutely much as possible... The fighter could be a necropolitan. Also, do warforged breathe?

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy: What if the fighter can breathe water or has a bottle of air?

I said 99% for a reason, how many fighter builds do you know that include water breathing?

And they are still disabled for hours.

Four Walls of Stone (one on each side), flood the cage from the roof, and then Polymorph Any Object the water inside the cage into Lava. Or Acid.

Or get him inside a Telekinetic Sphere, cast Gate to create a Gate to orbit or a deadly plane, fly the sphere through, and leave.

Nothing sucks quite as much as finding yourself in the middle of interstellar space while a Shadesteel Golem floats a mile away playing keep away with a Weirdstone until you die. :D

That was a fun time.

[Chess435]

Alternately, Wu Jen 19/ Cleric 1

DMM: Persisted Transcend Mortality + Contingent True Resurrection = Win!

[jindra34]

Alternately, Wu Jen 19/ Cleric 1

DMM: Persisted Transcend Mortality + Contingent True Resurrection = Win!

Disjunction would have a say in that (it tends to have a say in everything). So not quite.

[Chess435]

Disjunction would have a say in that (it tends to have a say in everything). So not quite.

Can a Ring of Spell Battle stop 9th level spells?

[Emperor Tippy]

I guess a Vop Forasaker is the 1%?

Disjunction does nothing to him.
Yes, and it wouldn't be used as he lacks any magical auras. But it's still part of the combination.

Freedom of movement lets him slip through the bars.
No, it actually doesn't. Read Freedom of Movement, you only auto succeed on Escape Artist checks to escape a Grapple or Pin.

He hasn't taken a breath since lvl 12 so drowning isn't a threat.
Which does nothing to get him out of the Forcecage.

Dim lock has SR. And even if it overcomes it there is no threat.
His SR is 20, I auto-succeed on the check. And there is still the Weirdstone if necessary.

Resilient sphere is single target and if you are going to try to use it to include everyone in the area then everyone potentially affected should get a save.
No, by RAW only the target gets a save. Even if it does cover other characters.

EDIT: Actually a VoP Forsaken has no way to get out of the Forcecage in the first place. And Monks don't get Abundant Step until 12th level, which means only 8 levels of Forsaken. So no Dimension Door that way.

[jindra34]

Can a Ring of Spell Battle stop 9th level spells?

As I understand it (due to poor wording on WoTC's part) only if they cast from within 60 feet. And you'd have to make the counterspell roll. And it only works once per day.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yes, and it wouldn't be used as he lacks any magical auras. But it's still part of the combination.

No, it actually doesn't. Read Freedom of Movement, you only auto succeed on Escape Artist checks to escape a Grapple or Pin.

Which does nothing to get him out of the Forcecage.

His SR is 20, I auto-succeed on the check. And there is still the Weirdstone if necessary.

No, by RAW only the target gets a save. Even if it does cover other characters.

EDIT: Actually a VoP Forsaken has no way to get out of the Forcecage in the first place. And Monks don't get Abundant Step until 12th level, which means only 8 levels of Forsaken. So no Dimension Door that way.

No, YOU read freedom of movement. I can move normally even if magic tries to stop me. Technically, I can walk through the resilient sphere too.

His SR is +21 to any existing SR. Easily allowing for SR in the 50's.
Wierdstone is not a likely purchase for that type of character but ok. I can wait.

By raw it only affects one creature. So by raw you trap the fuzzball and not the enemy. Your the one extrapolating that since it is bigger, then it can trap more people. If your going to change it like this then everyone gets a save.

And actually unarmed swordsage gets me the teleport i need to get out.

[Dragonsoul]

His SR is 20, I auto-succeed on the check. And there is still the Weirdstone if necessary.



Actually its 54(IIRK) It stacks with other sources, I make him a drow, giving him SR30 +20 from forsaker(or maybe a little less, depending) and there is an exalted feat that adds another +4(The rest of it works, I'm just saying the SR requires a little extra work to beat.)

[PotatoNinja]

Nothing sucks quite as much as finding yourself in the middle of interstellar space while a Shadesteel Golem floats a mile away playing keep away with a Weirdstone until you die. :D

That was a fun time.

Tippy, your glorious bastard......:smalltongue:

[jindra34]

No, YOU read freedom of movement. I can move normally even if magic tries to stop me. Technically, I can walk through the resilient sphere too.



So Freedom of movement also works on Wall of Stone, Iron, Ice and Force? Or Dimensional Anchor since its worded to simply stop movement into other planes? Does that not seem a little silly to you?

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually its 54(IIRK) It stacks with other sources, I make him a drow, giving him SR30 +20 from forsaker(or maybe a little less, depending) and there is an exalted feat that adds another +4(The rest of it works, I'm just saying the SR requires a little extra work to beat.)


11+class level for drow = 31

11+10 lvls of forsaker= 21

+4 from feat

total 56

Probably some more ways out there to pump it up higher.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, YOU read freedom of movement. I can move normally even if magic tries to stop me. Technically, I can walk through the resilient sphere too.

His SR is +21 to any existing SR. Easily allowing for SR in the 50's.
Wierdstone is not a likely purchase for that type of character but ok. I can wait.

By raw it only affects one creature. So by raw you trap the fuzzball and not the enemy. Your the one extrapolating that since it is bigger, then it can trap more people. If your going to change it like this then everyone gets a save.

And actually unarmed swordsage gets me the teleport i need to get out.

On Freedom of Movement:
"This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web."

If it places a condition on your character which impedes movement (Slowed, Entangled, Paralyzed, etc.) then you can ignore it. If it does not place a condition on your character and instead creates an obstacle, then Freedom of Movement is of no benefit because it does not enable you to ignore obstacles. He cannot use it to walk through a Wall of Force, or a Wall of Iron, it does not enable him to slip through mundane prison bars, and it does not allow him to escape Forcecage or Resilient Sphere.


On Resilient Sphere:
Effect: 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration.

It does not specify that anything is excluded from the sphere, including other creatures who happen to be within its area of effect. It does not specify who does or does not get a saving throw, so it would stand to reason that anything within its area would get a saving throw to avoid being trapped. Since this is an Evocation [Force] effect that creates a barrier, I'm not sure why it has SR: Yes, but it would be entirely up to a given DM whether it would be checked for collateral targets.

[Gotterdammerung]

So Freedom of movement also works on Wall of Stone, Iron, Ice and Force? Or Dimensional Anchor since its worded to simply stop movement into other planes? Does that not seem a little silly to you?

Does magic seem silly to me?

A wizard banishes magic from the room then stops time and then proceeds to lock me in a golden glowing cage of magic and opens up a flask that never stops pouring out water and then throws a fuzzball out of his butt that turns into a lion and then resumes time for the finale, a giant soap bubble of magic.

And the part you get hung up on, is me using magic to walk through it all?

[Gavinfoxx]

It's Magnificent Bastard...

[jindra34]

Does magic seem silly to me?

A wizard banishes magic from the room then stops time and then proceeds to lock me in a golden glowing cage of magic and opens up a flask that never stops pouring out water and then throws a fuzzball out of his butt that turns into a lion and then resumes time for the finale, a giant soap bubble of magic.

And the part you get hung up on, is me using magic to walk through it all?

The part I'm getting hung up on is that your reading enables you to ignore any magic effect that prevents you from going somewhere. Including a mage conjuring up an ordinary stone or iron wall in your way.

[Diefje]

So Freedom of movement also works on Wall of Stone, Iron, Ice and Force? Or Dimensional Anchor since its worded to simply stop movement into other planes? Does that not seem a little silly to you?

Slip right through the molecules of solid objects. Freedom of Movement spits in the face of anything. Oh I'm sorry sire, you're impeding my movement, let me just walk right through you. TRY TO STOP ME!


(yes it's silly)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If an effect impedes movement in general, then Freedom of Movement lets you ignore it. If the character is able to move freely until he bumps into it, then Freedom of Movement is of no benefit. Nothing about Forcecage or Resilient Sphere keeps the target from moving freely within its confines, so Freedom of Movement will not enable you to escape it.

[Gotterdammerung]

If it places a condition on your character which impedes movement (Slowed, Entangled, Paralyzed, etc.) then you can ignore it. If it does not place a condition on your character and instead creates an obstacle, then Freedom of Movement is of no benefit because it does not enable you to ignore obstacles. He cannot use it to walk through a Wall of Force, or a Wall of Iron, it does not enable him to slip through mundane prison bars, and it does not allow him to escape Forcecage or Resilient Sphere.


You made this part up. It doesn't say anything about conditions in the spell description.

Solid fog does not place a condition on you. It is just a dense fog that applies resistance to you as you move through it. Yet freedom of movement lets you ignore this very real obstacle and move through it like a hot knife through butter.



And about the resilient sphere thing, you said the same thing I said this time.

The spell specifically states 1 creature gets trapped.
The save DC doesn't designate who is making the save.

If you go by raw (which is what IS said. Not what ISN'T said.) then it can only affect 1 creature. Because that is what the spell specifically says it does. Traps A creature.

If the GM fills in the blanks and changes it to affect everyone in the area, then also by raw the nonspecific reflex save would apply to EVERYONE AFFECTED.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, YOU read freedom of movement. I can move normally even if magic tries to stop me. Technically, I can walk through the resilient sphere too.
No you can't. FoM doesn't work that way. You aren't under the effects of a spell that impedes movement.


His SR is +21 to any existing SR. Easily allowing for SR in the 50's.
Meh, it's still not that hard to beat. But it's not necessary, weirdstone it is (as the only thing you got SR on was the Dimensional Lock, which isn't actually necessary in the first place as you lack dimensional travel).


Wierdstone is not a likely purchase for that type of character but ok. I can wait.
Yes it is. Every 20th level character should have one. Immunity to planar travel, immunity to divination. It's pretty much a must have purchase for everyone except a caster (and even casters enjoy having them).


By raw it only affects one creature. So by raw you trap the fuzzball and not the enemy. Your the one extrapolating that since it is bigger, then it can trap more people. If your going to change it like this then everyone gets a save.[/quote[
No, by RAW it targets one character and traps the rest with no save and no SR.

[quote]And actually unarmed swordsage gets me the teleport i need to get out.
Weirdstone.



Actually its 54(IIRK) It stacks with other sources, I make him a drow, giving him SR30 +20 from forsaker(or maybe a little less, depending) and there is an exalted feat that adds another +4(The rest of it works, I'm just saying the SR requires a little extra work to beat.)

Sorry, didn't realize you were a drow. That makes it slightly more difficult.


Tippy, your glorious bastard......:smalltongue:

Thank you.

[Dragonsoul]

Ok, I'll try to get a rough sketch going

Salem Ghostwalker 10,12,12,10,16,16(Drow) Flaw:Murky Eyed
Monk 2- Evasion, +3/+3/+3. Wis to AC Gives Monk Stuff Feats: Vow of Poverty, Sacred Vow
Paladin 2- Cha to saves, no other reason +6/+3/+3 Feat: Quick Draw
Swordsage 2- Manuevers,Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike),Wis to AC +6/+6/+6
Feat: True Believer
Red Avenger 1 - Saves, Stunning Shout +8/+8/+8
Ninja of the cresent Moon- Saves, Monk AC, Sneak Attack +10/+10/+10
Pious Templear -<Picking a diety with Favoured Weapon-Unarmed Strike>
Mettle, +12/+10/+12
Cleric - Domains (Luck,Pride) +14/+10/+14
Forsaker 10 SR out the wazoo, +10 inherent bonus to stats +21/+13/+21
+5 Cha from Leveling,+5 cha,+5 Wis from Forsaker,+8 Cha,+6 wis,+4 con,+2 Dex from Exalted bringing it to
10/14/16/10/27/34
Cha to saves-> +12 to all-> +33/+25/+33
Vow of Poverty->+3 to all-> +36/+28/+36
Nymph's Kiss-> +1 to all-> +37/+29/+37 ..must be a spell for this to work
And I get 2 rerolls for my saves

SR is 28 (drow)+20 Forsaker+4 Exalted feat=52
Touch AC is 10+ 2(dex) + 14(wis) + 3(exalted) +4 Vow of peace
Normal is all that +10 Exalted+ 3 Con(Forsaker) +2 Vow of peace

So Touch is 37 Normal is 52

Not a great start, but I need to throw something down to focus my thoughts

Please note this is a starting point, just so I have a reference of what to change, for example, is there any way I can easily get the ability to cast Magic circle against evil to qualify for PRc Witch hunter?

[Gotterdammerung]

No you can't. FoM doesn't work that way. You aren't under the effects of a spell that impedes movement.
Agree to disagree


Meh, it's still not that hard to beat. But it's not necessary, weirdstone it is (as the only thing you got SR on was the Dimensional Lock, which isn't actually necessary in the first place as you lack dimensional travel).
I would have dimensional travel and can get it from various means with the 10 free levels i have to play with.
And I said if you want to use wierdstone it is fine. There is no threat I can wait it out. Chances are though, I will probably bluff like I am drowning and make you think your plan worked. I don't need to eat sleep or breath so playing dead will be a cinch. If you turn off the wierd stone its on.


Yes it is. Every 20th level character should have one. Immunity to planar travel, immunity to divination. It's pretty much a must have purchase for everyone except a caster (and even casters enjoy having them).
It is expensive. (So much so that in a lot of games you can't even find a place to buy it until epic.) It duplicates a lot of spell effects that normally work fine for you, so it is largely redundant. It takes a standard to activate and deactivate. It is stationary. I can think of a lot of reasons why it is a tad inappropriate for a 20th wizard. But in this one case where this 1 guy with no magic auras has a 56 SR to thwart your normal dim lock, of course you would buy it in a heart beat.

But even so, It doesnt matter. It only traps me. And I can just wait it out.


No, by RAW it targets one character and traps the rest with no save and no SR.

Except no. You are filling in blanks. You can't do that and call it raw.

"A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration."

singular. traps 1 guy by raw.

If you want to apply logic and extra text to make it affect everyone in the area, then they all are affected by the spell. So they all get this

Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

[Emperor Tippy]

What Swordsage maneuvers do you have?

You need a way to escape a forcecage. And the elimination of magic items makes that difficult. You might argue that Forsaker doesn't apply to psionic powers, in which case you could go that route.

[Dragonsoul]

Hmm Beholder graft-> Antimagic cone?

Does Divine grace from different classes stack?

[Emperor Tippy]

Agree to disagree
Um no, the rules don't work the way you are applying them.


I would have dimensional travel and can get it from various means with the 10 free levels i have to play with.
No, with 20 levels and no casting or magic items it's a bitch to get. Swordsage is the only way I can think of off the top of my head.


And I said if you want to use wierdstone it is fine. There is no threat I can wait it out. Chances are though, I will probably bluff like I am drowning and make you think your plan worked. I don't need to eat sleep or breath so playing dead will be a cinch. If you turn off the wierd stone its on.
Except you can't really bluff like that successfully. Way too many ways to know if a person is dead or not.


It is expensive. (So much so that in a lot of games you can't even find a place to buy it until epic.) It duplicates a lot of spell effects that normally work fine for you, so it is largely redundant. It takes a standard to activate and deactivate. It is stationary. I can think of a lot of reasons why it is a tad inappropriate for a 20th wizard. But in this one case where this 1 guy with no magic auras has a 56 SR to thwart your normal dim lock, of course you would buy it in a heart beat.
It's already bought (actually Wished up with gate abuse). And you carry it because it is incredibly useful in all kinds of situations. Just as one use, it kicks out astral projecting wizards; forcing them to actually show up and fight you.


But even so, It doesnt matter. It only traps me. And I can just wait it out.
Drowning? Sure. Drowning in Lava? Or Acid?

Breathing interstellar vacuum?


Except no. You are filling in blanks. You can't do that and call it raw.

"A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration."

singular. traps 1 guy by raw.

If you want to apply logic and extra text to make it affect everyone in the area, then they all are affected by the spell. So they all get this

Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

So have a save. Even if you can ignore the resilient sphere it can still trap the water, which is all I want it for. Sure, it does make it harder to drop you into orbit but that's about it.


Hmm Beholder graft-> Antimagic cone?
Doesn't actually do all that much. Most anything that is going to be used against a character like you is going to be SR: No. Fits thematically though.

[Dragonsoul]

By the way, you do know that doesn't kill me? I don't need to breathe, energy resistance means lava doesn't do a thing,and acid resistance means that acid doesn't do much either. I don't think there is rules for decompression...

[Emperor Tippy]

By the way, you do know that doesn't kill me? I don't need to breathe, energy resistance means lava doesn't do a thing,and acid resistance means that acid doesn't do much either. I don't think there is rules for decompression...

It's only 15. Immersion in Acid is 10d6 damage per round.

And vacuum does 2d6 fire, 2d6 cold, and 1d4 vacuum damage each round. Although your fast healing can take care of that.

Which is frankly irrelevant as you lack long range teleportation and have no way to actually get it. Without Greater Teleport, Wish, Miracle, Teleporation Circle, Gate, or similar unlimited range teleporation magic you will never get home.

Dumping you on the positive energy plane would also cause you to go boom eventually. Hmm, can you damage yourself fast enough to overcome your fast healing when combined with the planes fast healing, or will you blow up first?

[Dragonsoul]

I have shadow jaunt.... yeah that ain't cuttin' it

[Emperor Tippy]

I have shadow jaunt.... yeah that ain't cuttin' it

Nope. :smalltongue:

And if you want something really dickish, I can drop some Dust of Sneezing and Choking into the Forcecage, dismiss it, cast the gate, and then just throw you through it.

Don't even need the Forcecage. Just Time Stop, ready an action to chuck the Dust at your square when TS ends, proceed to gate you away from there.

Unless you have immunity to stun, didn't see that on your character.

[Dragonsoul]

Immune to stunning...there's a graft for that
Wakeful Mind, I think I can pass the save.

[Gotterdammerung]

Shadow jaunt, shadow blink, ect actually would bypass dim lock and weirdstone.

For weird stone it is not one of the listed effects and it does not duplicate any of the barred effects.

For dim lock none of the maneuvers specify the teleportation as being "extradimensional".



And teleportation is not hard to get in 10 lvls with no magic classes. Swordsage, incarnum, psionics are all viable options.


Also bluff can work that way. Yes you can use other means to ensure i am alive. But you would need to use them. And many of them would be unavailable for use due to the lack of line of effect and mindshielding.


How did you plan on turning the water into lava or acid? you don't have line of effect thanks to your soap bubble.

1 feat gives me a save to clear stun every round. A save I can easily make.
or i can dip a warblade lvl and grab iron heart surge.

[Emperor Tippy]

Immune to stunning...there's a graft for that
Wakeful Mind, I think I can pass the save.

What save? And wheres the graft from, cause I looked through all of them I know about and didn't see any that prevented stunning.

[jindra34]

Dragon Soul you do realize that with taking Vow of Poverty at first level you'll never have a chance to build up money to buy grafts?

[Morithias]

I'd go with troll blooded warforged juggernaut, with a level in barbarian and the feat from sandstorm that gives you the fire subtype.

Now if someone can find a way to be immune to acid you'ld be set short of a sphere of aniliation or the unname spell.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't there a rule that says if you have regeneration that can't be beaten by some specific type, it changes to fast healing instead?

Also, Trollbane still works...

Yea, you have to take VoP at the absolute LATEST point, AFTER you have gotten all your grafts...

[Emperor Tippy]

Shadow jaunt, shadow blink, ect actually would bypass dim lock and weirdstone.

For weird stone it is not one of the listed effects and it does not duplicate any of the barred effects.

For dim lock none of the maneuvers specify the teleportation as being "extradimensional".

And teleportation is not hard to get in 10 lvls with no magic classes. Swordsage, incarnum, psionics are all viable options.
No they wouldn't. Nothing short of Wish bypasses a Weirdstone, and Dim Lock depends on DM.

Read the last bullet point on the Weirdstone. The Shadow Jaunt line are extraordinary abilities with the teleportation descriptor, they're blocked.

And no, getting long range teleport without magic use is nigh impossible. Nothing you listed can do it.


Also bluff can work that way. Yes you can use other means to ensure i am alive. But you would need to use them. And many of them would be unavailable for use due to the lack of line of effect and mindshielding.
You're mindshielding is crap.


How did you plan on turning the water into lava or acid? you don't have line of effect thanks to your soap bubble.
Polymorph Any Object. And this is after I ended the Resilient Sphere when you survived it. Use walls of stone to block up the 4 sides of the forcecage, fill it with water, PaO the water into something deadly.


1 feat gives me a save to clear stun every round. A save I can easily make.
or i can dip a warblade lvl and grab iron heart surge.
Which feat? And no, you can't IHS stun away as you can't take actions.

EDIT: Nah, you take VoP at first level, go to level 20, use Chaos Shuffle to turn all your VoP feats into other things, buy all the grafts you want, and then use Chaos Shuffle to regain VoP (and any exalted bonus feats you actually wanted).

[jindra34]

EDIT: Nah, you take VoP at first level, go to level 20, use Chaos Shuffle to turn all your VoP feats into other things, buy all the grafts you want, and then use Chaos Shuffle to regain VoP (and any exalted bonus feats you actually wanted).

Doesn't that kind of break his no spells rule?

[Emperor Tippy]

Doesn't that kind of break his no spells rule?

That's why your backstory has you wait a year and a day after you complete your Chaos Shuffle before doing anything else, so you regain your Forsaker abilities :D

[Gotterdammerung]

No they wouldn't. Nothing short of Wish bypasses a Weirdstone, and Dim Lock depends on DM.

Read the last bullet point on the Weirdstone. The Shadow Jaunt line are extraordinary abilities with the teleportation descriptor, they're blocked.

And no, getting long range teleport without magic use is nigh impossible. Nothing you listed can do it.


You're mindshielding is crap.


Polymorph Any Object. And this is after I ended the Resilient Sphere when you survived it. Use walls of stone to block up the 4 sides of the forcecage, fill it with water, PaO the water into something deadly.


Which feat? And no, you can't IHS stun away as you can't take actions.

EDIT: Nah, you take VoP at first level, go to level 20, use Chaos Shuffle to turn all your VoP feats into other things, buy all the grafts you want, and then use Chaos Shuffle to regain VoP (and any exalted bonus feats you actually wanted).

Again.. No YOU read it.

*All astral and ethereal travel- does not apply to shadow jaunt.

*all divination and scrying spells- does not apply

*all conjuration(teleportation) spells- does not apply

*all SLa, SU, ex, psi, or the like that mimic these effects- does not apply.

Yes shadow jaunt is a ex ability, But it does not "mimic" any conjuration(teleportation) spell.



next, i know my mind shield is not strong. But it does stop SOME of the ways you could scan to see if I am alive or playing possum. That is why i listed it. Because i am thorough. I also listed line of effect problems.


The feat is called quick recovery it is from lords of madness. You get a chance to recover from stun or daze at the beginning of your turn. If you succeed you salvage your turn but lose a move action.


As for the whole removing the soap bubble and blocking me in walls, that is a whole different turn. Which means I had a turn to do stuff. For instance, destroy the decanter of endless water. And then teleport out.

[Emperor Tippy]

*all SLa, SU, ex, psi, or the like that mimic these effects- does not apply.

Yes shadow jaunt is a ex ability, But it does not "mimic" any conjuration(teleportation) spell.
Sure it does. It's listed as a [teleportation] effect.


next, i know my mind shield is not strong. But it does stop SOME of the ways you could scan to see if I am alive or playing possum. That is why i listed it. Because i am thorough. I also listed line of effect problems.
It doesn't block Mindsight.


The feat is called quick recovery it is from lords of madness. You get a chance to recover from stun or daze at the beginning of your turn. If you succeed you salvage your turn but lose a move action.
So what feats do you have? Because you don't get all that many.


As for the whole removing the soap bubble and blocking me in walls, that is a whole different turn. Which means I had a turn to do stuff. For instance, destroy the decanter of endless water. And then teleport out.

Yes, destroy the decanter that is outside of your cell. How exactly do you plan on doing that? And your teleportation is blocked by Weirdstone.

And if we are going with the DM interpreting Resilent Sphere as giving you a save, I would have used the walls in the first place.

[Doughnut Master]

I'd go with troll blooded warforged juggernaut, with a level in barbarian and the feat from sandstorm that gives you the fire subtype.

Now if someone can find a way to be immune to acid you'ld be set short of a sphere of aniliation or the unname spell.


Blueshine body, depending on DM interpretation.

Try to pick up evasion and mettle for good measure as well?

[Gotterdammerung]

Sure it does. It's listed as a [teleportation] effect.


It doesn't block Mindsight.


So what feats do you have? Because you don't get all that many.



Yes, destroy the decanter that is outside of your cell. How exactly do you plan on doing that? And your teleportation is blocked by Weirdstone.

And if we are going with the DM interpreting Resilent Sphere as giving you a save, I would have used the walls in the first place.


It is a teleportation effect, but it is NOT a "conjuration(teleportation) effect, these are 2 different things. The maneuver is also unique and does not mimic any existing conjuration(teleportation) spell. Therefore your wierd stone does not block it.

My character does not have a language. You can't see me with mindsight. If you can be a cheesy bass terd then so can I.


I am not going to tell you my feats. Because you will just pull a Schroedinger's wizard and pick feats spells and prestiges to bypass or come up with a new plan. Which is exactly the point. We can do this round robin forever. You can give a finished build and I can build one to counter that. And you can then build one to counter that. ect into infinite.


And I can use manuevers to hit the flask from range. I can do enough fire damage with my supernatural flames to burn up a stinking leather waterskin (or burn and crack the glass flask).

Or I can attack it with my spear. Since a spear is a simple weapon I get to own it in spite of the VoP. And it has reach and it fits through the dumb glow bars.

Even if you call it a metal flask I can still do enough damage to destroy a weak sauce flask.

And don't try to say you just put it out farther than I can reach.

Because

A. your trying to fit a 20 by 20 cage into an area bubble thats a little bigger than a 20 foot radius with some caster lvl bumps.

So there isn't any room for your decanter to be 15 or 20 feet away from the cage and still be in your bubble.

and

B. I will just add in stuff to increase my reach.

[Dragonsoul]

1) The build Natively has reach and mettle from Pious Templear and Monk
2) I don't pay for them, and Just get them from reallly grateful person(alities)?, VoP says I don't get money, I still get my WBL, just in general its really hard to lever it, I just donate to the Charity of Grafting Abominations onto impoverished Adventures, hell the Silthilar give you there grafts for free, if you let them further there research

[NimbleNZ]

Dragon Soul you do realize that with taking Vow of Poverty at first level you'll never have a chance to build up money to buy grafts?

you get the bonuses from VoP retroactively (except for the exalted feats). so it doesnt matter which level you take it at. take it at level 19 if you like and spend the cash on tomes or manuals, or grafts if your DM rules they don't biolate the vow.


I'd go with troll blooded warforged juggernaut, with a level in barbarian and the feat from sandstorm that gives you the fire subtype.

Now if someone can find a way to be immune to acid you'ld be set short of a sphere of aniliation or the unname spell.

troll blooded must be taken at level 1 and has tougness as a pre-req. do warforged get toughness as a racial feat? if not, you need to be human. you could go renegade mstermaker, but then you end up spending lots of levels on essentially useless prestige classes. you have other priorities, such immunities, touch AC, SR, saves, teleportation, anti-magic, etc


Isn't there a rule that says if you have regeneration that can't be beaten by some specific type, it changes to fast healing instead?

Also, Trollbane still works...

Yea, you have to take VoP at the absolute LATEST point, AFTER you have gotten all your grafts...

immunity to poison is easy to get. taking troll blooded should get poison immunity as well

[Gavinfoxx]

Trollbane is an item that bypasses regeneration, fyi... I don't believe it is a poison...

[Dragonsoul]

troll blooded must be taken at level 1 and has tougness as a pre-req. do warforged get toughness as a racial feat? if not, you need to be human. you could go renegade mstermaker, but then you end up spending lots of levels on essentially useless prestige classes. you have other priorities, such immunities, touch AC, SR, saves, teleportation, anti-magic, etc

Flaws get you the feat you need.....

[OracleofWuffing]

And if we are going with the DM interpreting Resilent Sphere as giving you a save, I would have used the walls in the first place.
If you're using walls in the first place, blocking Shadow Jaunt/Blink isn't even a worry, as those require line of sight and effect to wherever you want to teleport to.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, this isn't a round robin. Everything I've listed so far I can accomplish with less than 30K worth of magic items, without even touching any of my spells prepared.

You have ~7 feats excluding various (essentially worthless) bonus feats.

Sacred Vow and VoP are 2/7.

Monk gives you Imp. Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist for 2 levels.

Paladin gives you nothing feat wise.

Swordsage (might) get you a weapon focus feat (depends on DM ruling about whether it qualifies). True Believer would give you 3/7

Pious Templar requires Weapon Focus with your deities favored weapon. Where are you getting that from? That's 4/7

NotCM requires that you pick up the Deflect Arrows and Quick Draw and you don't have the levels to stay in Pious Templar long enough to get them as bonus feats. That means 2 more feats, putting you are 6/7

Cleric doesn't require any feats, but it doesn't give you any either.

Forsaker requires Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lighting Reflexes. That's 9/7 feats taken up. Even if you are human you are still 1 over.

If you add in Quick Recovery then you are two over.

---
So where are you getting the Feats to make this build work? I'm not going to even bother checking skill points, or to see if you are actually in those classes long enough to get the benefits you claim in your post.

EDIT: You flaw will get you enough feats but Quick Recovery isn't in, which means you die to Dust of Sneezing and Choking+Gate.

[Gotterdammerung]

If you're using walls in the first place, blocking Shadow Jaunt/Blink isn't even a worry, as those require line of sight and effect to wherever you want to teleport to.

Except I can see the space above the top of the walls.

[Emperor Tippy]

Except I can see the space above the top of the walls.
Not with a solid fog dumped into your cage/out the top.

[Gotterdammerung]

No, this isn't a round robin. Everything I've listed so far I can accomplish with less than 30K worth of magic items, without even touching any of my spells prepared.

You have ~7 feats excluding various (essentially worthless) bonus feats.

Sacred Vow and VoP are 2/7.

Monk gives you Imp. Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist for 2 levels.

Paladin gives you nothing feat wise.

Swordsage (might) get you a weapon focus feat (depends on DM ruling about whether it qualifies). True Believer would give you 3/7

Pious Templar requires Weapon Focus with your deities favored weapon. Where are you getting that from? That's 4/7

NotCM requires that you pick up the Deflect Arrows and Quick Draw and you don't have the levels to stay in Pious Templar long enough to get them as bonus feats. That means 2 more feats, putting you are 6/7

Cleric doesn't require any feats, but it doesn't give you any either.

Forsaker requires Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lighting Reflexes. That's 9/7 feats taken up. Even if you are human you are still 1 over.

If you add in Quick Recovery then you are two over.

---
So where are you getting the Feats to make this build work? I'm not going to even bother checking skill points, or to see if you are actually in those classes long enough to get the benefits you claim in your post.

Your lumping 2 guys together. He is going a different route than me.

Iron will is free from the otyugh pit

and as you stated, I can cycle out unneeded bonus exalted feats.

Then there is flaws.

my build would probably be 1 swordsage 10 forsaker 8 swordsage 1 pious templar. But I am not to worried about cinching it down.

[Medic!]

I once had a jermlaine druid/monk gestalt that was untouchable until he got power-word-killed at lvl 4 :(

I've thought about the "untouchable" non-caster build for a while but never went ahead and fleshed it out, but it definately involves as small a race as possible with monk levels. Some things I would consider are maybe a cloak of displacement (the good one, I'm AFB and half-drunk atm) and an Item Familiar from UA with the "cast the 0 lvl spell caltrops in the path of any creature that tries to charge at me" contingency.

Might as well go for the gold and add in Spell Fire from Forgotten Realms too, and make yourself a living rod of absorbtion.

[Gotterdammerung]

Not with a solid fog dumped into your cage/out the top.

Do that and the water flows out slower

You lose line of sight as well.

You also have no reason to believe I can teleport out. Trusting your faulty weirdstone explicitly. Therefore you have no reason to go the extra mile to block my line of sight as well as your own to defend against something you should already feel defended against.

[Dragonsoul]

No, this isn't a round robin. Everything I've listed so far I can accomplish with less than 30K worth of magic items, without even touching any of my spells prepared.

You have ~7 feats excluding various (essentially worthless) bonus feats.

Sacred Vow and VoP are 2/7.

Monk gives you Imp. Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist for 2 levels.

Paladin gives you nothing feat wise.

Swordsage (might) get you a weapon focus feat (depends on DM ruling about whether it qualifies). True Believer would give you 3/7

Pious Templar requires Weapon Focus with your deities favored weapon. Where are you getting that from? That's 4/7

NotCM requires that you pick up the Deflect Arrows and Quick Draw and you don't have the levels to stay in Pious Templar long enough to get them as bonus feats. That means 2 more feats, putting you are 6/7

Cleric doesn't require any feats, but it doesn't give you any either.

Forsaker requires Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lighting Reflexes. That's 9/7 feats taken up. Even if you are human you are still 1 over.

If you add in Quick Recovery then you are two over.

---
So where are you getting the Feats to make this build work? I'm not going to even bother checking skill points, or to see if you are actually in those classes long enough to get the benefits you claim in your post.

EDIT: You flaw will get you enough feats but Quick Recovery isn't in, which means you die to Dust of Sneezing and Choking+Gate.

Swordsage gets me the weapon focus feat, quick recovery? don't need it just use the Construct graft that makes me immune to stunning, Notcm was fairly arbitrary as a class choice-I can change it and it makes very little difference, I can even go into Hand and foot ACF(from UA) on the monk to pick up deflect arrows.

As I said this is a sketched idea, I can tighten it up a lot, and anyway, I fully expect to lose this, it's the nature of the game-Hell the wizard can just spell engine out any solutions if he doesn't have any answers on hand- I just want a non magical build, that uses what is considered to be a terrible feat and prestige class, and have some fun with it-It comes from being the lone optimiser in my playgroup (or at least the largest one) I start with weak concepts and make them do cool things.


Not with a solid fog dumped into your cage/out the top.


can't I just Fly(Feathered wings Graft) out? I have freedom of movement, you can't use magic to impede my movement, which Forcecage is, I mean both of us should be able to use Poor wording to Abuse RAI right?

[NimbleNZ]

Trollbane is an item that bypasses regeneration, fyi... I don't believe it is a poison...

i asked this very question a while back:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220467&highlight=trollbane

trollbane functions like an injury poison (DMG p.296)

you coat it on stuff, or whatever, but once the player is affected by it; it gets treated like a poison.

EDIT: "Flaws get you the feat you need....."

that is a very good point, opens up lots of other races for trollbane damage immunity abuse. thanks :)

[sonofzeal]

It is a teleportation effect, but it is NOT a "conjuration(teleportation) effect, these are 2 different things. The maneuver is also unique and does not mimic any existing conjuration(teleportation) spell. Therefore your wierd stone does not block it.
Err....

" A weirdstone prohibits all... translocational magics (such as teleport, pass plant, and dimension door)..."

Says nothing about "conjuration(teleportation)". Says nothing about Astral/Ethereal/Shadow planes. If it's magic, and it translocates you, it's blocked.

[Emperor Tippy]

Your lumping 2 guys together. He is going a different route than me.
Then post a build, or at least something approaching a build. I haven't moved outside things a build I made over 3 years ago could do at level 18 yet.


Iron will is free from the otyugh pit
Not listed as gaining it that way though.


and as you stated, I can cycle out unneeded bonus exalted feats.
Stated by me, and how you have to do that is iffy.


Then there is flaws.
Only 1 listed.


my build would probably be 1 swordsage 10 forsaker 8 swordsage 1 pious templar. But I am not to worried about cinching it down.
Then you will loose out on the vast majority of the save bonuses you were going for. And unless you are going LA buy off you aren't fitting Drow in there either.


Swordsage gets me the weapon focus feat,
No it doesn't. It gives you the benefits of the feat but not the feat, it technically doesn't qualify you for PrC or other feat prerequisites.

quick recovery? don't need it just use the Construct graft that makes me immune to stunning, Notcm was fairly arbitrary as a class choice-I can change it and it makes very little difference, I can even go into Hand and foot ACF(from UA) on the monk to pick up deflect arrows.
Didn't notice the Faiths of Eberron grafts, my bad.


As I said this is a sketched idea, I can tighten it up a lot, and anyway, I fully expect to lose this, it's the nature of the game-Hell the wizard can just spell engine out any solutions if he doesn't have any answers on hand- I just want a non magical build, that uses what is considered to be a terrible feat and prestige class, and have some fun with it-It comes from being the lone optimiser in my playgroup (or at least the largest one) I start with weak concepts and make them do cool things

That's fine. Still means you are going to get dropped into deep space :smallwink:


Do that and the water flows out slower
Which doesn't mean jack.


You lose line of sight as well.
Doesn't really matter, there are ways around that. Time Stop for example.


You also have no reason to believe I can teleport out. Trusting your faulty weirdstone explicitly. Therefore you have no reason to go the extra mile to block my line of sight as well as your own to defend against something you should already feel defended against.
If the DM has already ruled that you can bypass a Weirdstone with the Shadow Jaunt line then I will take steps to block it.


---
Anyways, I can just Time Stop, cast Disintegrate on the ground underneath you, cast Reverse Gravity, Cast Gate directly above your head with a target of deep space, ready an action to say "So long sucker" as soon as TS ends, and then laugh in your face.

No save, No SR, No chance of you escaping.

It's also cheaper than the other options.


can't I just Fly(Feathered wings Graft) out? I have freedom of movement, you can't use magic to impede my movement, which Forcecage is, I mean both of us should be able to use Poor wording to Abuse RAI right?

You can ignore the Solid Fog movement wise, you can't FoM out of a forcecage as it doesn't impede your movement. You are free to move at your full speed. There just happens to be a wall in the way.

[Dragonsoul]

Anyways, I can just Time Stop, cast Disintegrate on the ground underneath you, cast Reverse Gravity, Cast Gate directly above your head with a target of deep space, ready an action to say "So long sucker" as soon as TS ends, and then laugh in your face.

No save, No SR, No chance of you escaping.

It's also cheaper than the other options.

Recall that doesn't kill me, I just take a book and read it while I drift back to earth, taking 20D6 falling damage.Hmmm, Anyway to get a non-magical extra dimensional space? I may need a library to keep myself amused(Unless you do me a solid and let me bring that with me)



You can ignore the Solid Fog movement wise, you can't FoM out of a forcecage as it doesn't impede your movement. You are free to move at your full speed. There just happens to be a wall in the way.

Touche

[Midnight_v]

Actually its 54(IIRK) It stacks with other sources, I make him a drow, giving him SR30 +20 from forsaker(or maybe a little less, depending) and there is an exalted feat that adds another +4(The rest of it works, I'm just saying the SR requires a little extra work to beat.)
From D&D Glossary:

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps. If a cleric wearing +1 chainmail that grants him spell resistance 15 casts holy aura, which grants spell resistance 25 against evil spells and spells cast by evil creatures, he has spell resistance 25 against the aforementioned spells and spell resistance 15 against other spells and spell-like abilities.
Was there some specific way you're getting SR to stack?

[Dragonsoul]

Why yes, the forsaker states it stacks with anyother spell resistance he has

[Emperor Tippy]

Recall that doesn't kill me, I just take a book and read it while I drift back to earth, taking 20D6 falling damage.Hmmm, Anyway to get a non-magical extra dimensional space? I may need a library to keep myself amused(Unless you do me a solid and let me bring that with me)
Deep space, as in several light years away. Possibly the intergalactic void, as in several million light years away.

You will die of old age long before you get back.

The other fun place to dump people is on a Genesis demiplane that is a dead magic zone except for one 20 foot plane at the top of the demiplane that is limited to all magic except an Invisible Spell Gate, has subjective directional gravity, and is major positive-dominant aligned.

Dump a person there, wait for them to explode, prepare your own invisible gate spell, and then go visit to pick up their items.

[Dragonsoul]

:smallconfused: By that logic you can kill me with basket weaving- I'm using vow of Peace, I'm not trying to kill you.

question, you open a gate..you do know you have to concentrate to keep it open right? and if I go through it I can come right back out again, since its my turn and I can fly...although I do last 12 hours in there thanks to automaking the DC20 fort save and having 2 rerolls on the 1's (And I would probably get picked up by my God at that point, but I'm not counting that as a thing, just an amusing point)

[Emperor Tippy]

question, you open a gate..you do know you have to concentrate to keep it open right? and if I go through it I can come right back out again, since its my turn and I can fly...
You can end a gate at any time, such as once you are through it. And if the DM rules differently, there is always Greater Celerity to make it my turn again. :smallwink:

[Dragonsoul]

I ask how your making me go through it...your concentrating on holding it open in the vague hope I wander in?

[Emperor Tippy]

I ask how your making me go through it...your concentrating on holding it open in the vague hope I wander in?

Reverse Gravity.

[Dragonsoul]

a) I can fly
b) How are you casting a spell while concentrating on holding your gate open?

[Little Brother]

Uh, dude? Tippy? Seriously? Dimension Door is a feat, nowadays.

I'd go with troll blooded warforged juggernaut, with a level in barbarian and the feat from sandstorm that gives you the fire subtype.

Now if someone can find a way to be immune to acid you'ld be set short of a sphere of aniliation or the unname spell.Uh, Half Golem? The Clay one, I believe. Also gives you immunity to piercing, so it laughs at troll bane

Err....

" A weirdstone prohibits all... translocational magics (such as teleport, pass plant, and dimension door)..."

Says nothing about "conjuration(teleportation)". Says nothing about Astral/Ethereal/Shadow planes. If it's magic, and it translocates you, it's blocked.Good thing that Maneuver isn't magical.

Deep space, as in several light years away. Possibly the intergalactic void, as in several million light years away.

You will die of old age long before you get back.Good thing immortality is easy? Or come back as a ghost, either way.

The other fun place to dump people is on a Genesis demiplane that is a dead magic zone except for one 20 foot plane at the top of the demiplane that is limited to all magic except an Invisible Spell Gate, has subjective directional gravity, and is major positive-dominant aligned.Pretty sure you can't make it to only accept one spell. Regardless, there are other ways around this.

Dump a person there, wait for them to explode, prepare your own invisible gate spell, and then go visit to pick up their items.Good thing I wait for you get the drop on you, and ditch you. Or just kill you, regardless.

[TSED]

I would start with a war troll chassis and start applying templates.

Get something that negates the fire deal, something that makes immune to level drain, and something that allows you to not breath. Don't become undead for various reasons. Maybe look into something that prevents you from aging.

Bam. Nothing can be done about you now. Sure, you're not capable of bringing as many resources to bear in a straight up fight, but you get to try again FOR FOREVER.

[Emperor Tippy]

a) I can fly
Hmm, didn't notice that.

b) How are you casting a spell while concentrating on holding your gate open?
Gate was the last spell I cast, don't need concentration for Reverse Gravity.

Hmm, you know I could just Time Stop followed by Gate directly under your feat. Unless you are already flying before the Time Stop starts you should fall right in.

[Dragonsoul]

Fine, I'll just be lazily hovering over here---->
I think I'm allowed to be prepared for things too.

EDIT: Yeah, I essentially have my WBL in grafts, if you like I can just get a beholder eye and see how well you cast spells in an AMF but I think that's going against the spirit of the thing.

[Emperor Tippy]

Uh, dude? Tippy? Seriously? Dimension Door is a feat, nowadays.
Which one? And as an Ex or Su ability that can be gotten with no spell caster abilities or levels?


Good thing that Maneuver isn't magical.
Debatable as it applies to everything else. Up to the DM I suppose.

Good thing immortality is easy? Or come back as a ghost, either way.
Still leaves you about 10 million years and a few planes away from doing anything.

Pretty sure you can't make it to only accept one spell. Regardless, there are other ways around this.
Sure you can. Ready Limited Magic.


Good thing I wait for you get the drop on you, and ditch you. Or just kill you, regardless.
That assumes I come back. And it's iffy whether or not you can injure yourself fast enough to keep from going boom.


Fine, I'll just be lazily hovering over here---->
I think I'm allowed to be prepared for things too.
Sure. But you have prepared all of your WBL, all of your levels, and all of your feats. I have yet to break a 30K price tag on magic items.

I haven't even touched on my own spells yet.


EDIT: Yeah, I essentially have my WBL in grafts, if you like I can just get a beholder eye and see how well you cast spells in an AMF but I think that's going against the spirit of the thing.
How much have you spent? Because the Beholder graft is like 200K on it's own. And it's only 3/day AMF, and you can't activate it outside your turn.

EDIT: And just fine.

[Little Brother]

Which one? And as an Ex or Su ability that can be gotten with no spell caster abilities or levels?The second one.



Debatable as it applies to everything else. Up to the DM I suppose.Nope. Clearly and specifically mundane. It's a maneuver with nothing saying it's an SU.

Still leaves you about 10 million years and a few planes away from doing anything.Don't ghosts have a haunt based on their previous life or something? I'm unfamiliar with the rules, but eh, whatever.

Sure you can. Ready Limited Magic.Explain. Source?

That assumes I come back. And it's iffy whether or not you can injure yourself fast enough to keep from going boom.Not really. Coup de Grace yourself if all else fails. Drown yourself. Any number of things. And you said you'd come back, so eh. Have enough ranks in Know: Dungeoneering to tell the difference between an Elan and a human?

Sure. But you have prepared all of your WBL, all of your levels, and all of your feats. I have yet to break a 30K price tag on magic items.So? They do a good enough job of shutting you down either way. And yes you have, greater rods of X

I haven't even touched on my own spells yet.Good. Do so so we can get out of a Schrodinger's Wizard game.

How much have you spent? Because the Beholder graft is like 200K on it's own. And it's only 3/day AMF, and you can't activate it outside your turn.Don't. A continuous item of AMF is only 196K~.

EDIT: And just fine.How? You're not the cheater. You have a few, limited, and quite stretched cases.

[Emperor Tippy]

The second one.
You have yet to name the feat.


Nope. Clearly and specifically mundane. It's a maneuver with nothing saying it's an SU.
And it has the Teleport descriptor. Ask the DM whether or not a weirdstone blocks it.


Don't ghosts have a haunt based on their previous life or something? I'm unfamiliar with the rules, but eh, whatever.
Which can't be done by RAW.

Explain. Source?
The Manual of the Planes, the Planar Handbook, the SRD. You can prevent the use of specific spells or allow specific spells.

Not really. Coup de Grace yourself if all else fails.
Can't do that without being helpless, which prevents you from taking the action. Leaving that aside, CdG gives you a fort save equal to damage dealt or die. You will eventually fail one.

Drown yourself.
No way to stop it once you start.

Any number of things. And you said you'd come back, so eh.
Yes, but I never said when. 20-30 years is just fine.

Have enough ranks in Know: Dungeoneering to tell the difference between an Elan and a human?
Actually yes.


So? They do a good enough job of shutting you down either way. And yes you have, greater rods of X
No, actually I don't in the more recent uses. And even before I didn't need them, that's what scrolls are for.

Good. Do so so we can get out of a Schrodinger's Wizard game.
Except we aren't in a Schrodinger's Wizard game. Nothing I have listed requires so much as a single tweak to the character I am using. It's the Untouchable side that keeps tweaking their characters.

Don't. A continuous item of AMF is only 196K~.
It's also non existent unless Dragon has one somewhere.

[Little Brother]

You have yet to name the feat.Dude. Shape Soulmeld(Blink Shirt)

And it has the Teleport descriptor. Ask the DM whether or not a weirdstone blocks it.Eh, whatever.

Which can't be done by RAW.Didn't Ghostwalk have something to say about that?

The Manual of the Planes, the Planar Handbook, the SRD. You can prevent the use of specific spells or allow specific spells.Um, unless your SRD is different from my SRD, nope. It says you can limit them based on level, school, and descriptors. So, unless Gate is unique, you can't.

Can't do that without being helpless, which prevents you from taking the action. Leaving that aside, CdG gives you a fort save equal to damage dealt or die. You will eventually fail one.Hm. Pretty sure you can, or at least you auto-crit yourself. It's why stuff like DeathUrge/Whatever that guy with the gun did to himself in ToS.

No way to stop it once you start.Plenty of ways. You're at 0 HP, not helpless.

Yes, but I never said when. 20-30 years is just fine.How many ranks do you have in Know:Dungeoneering?

Actually yes.Bull.

No, actually I don't in the more recent uses. And even before I didn't need them, that's what scrolls are for.Yes they do, or at least anything I'd do would.

Except we aren't in a Schrodinger's Wizard game. Nothing I have listed requires so much as a single tweak to the character I am using. It's the Untouchable side that keeps tweaking their characters.Yes we are. You have not defined anything about this character, so you're playing Schrodinger's Wizard.

It's also non existent unless Dragon has one somewhere.Sorry, what were you saying? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

[Emperor Tippy]

Dude. Shape Soulmeld(Blink Shirt)
Thank you.

Didn't Ghostwalk have something to say about that?
Requires excess levels. You can't just die and declare that you are now a ghost.

Um, unless your SRD is different from my SRD, nope. It says you can limit them based on level, school, and descriptors. So, unless Gate is unique, you can't.
Read Plane of Shadows, you can alter them to specific spells. The two planes books list more planes with similar effects.

Hm. Pretty sure you can, or at least you auto-crit yourself. It's why stuff like DeathUrge/Whatever that guy with the gun did to himself in ToS.
CdG requires that the target be helpless, a helpless individual can't make attacks; ergo absent specific trumps general you can't CdG yourself.

Plenty of ways. You're at 0 HP, not helpless.
Can't stop it without magic items.

How many ranks do you have in Know:Dungeoneering?
Bull.
A +20 bonus?


Yes they do, or at least anything I'd do would.
Considering that the characters listed so far have no way to actually attack me? They are all defensive characters, and ones that aren't all that secure.

Yes we are. You have not defined anything about this character, so you're playing Schrodinger's Wizard.
Sure I have, about 30K worth of items (plus the weirdstone).

Sorry, what were you saying? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)
RAW you can't create new items except traps. Forsaker also prevents you from using magic items.

[Little Brother]

Thank you.

Requires excess levels. You can't just die and declare that you are now a ghost.Why not?


Read Plane of Shadows, you can alter them to specific spells. The two planes books list more planes with similar effects.Nope. The plane of Shadows can, you can't. That's like saying just 'cuz there was an Artifact that could do X, I can make a Magic Item to do X

CdG requires that the target be helpless, a helpless individual can't make attacks; ergo absent specific trumps general you can't CdG yourself.See Death Urge. If you attack yourself, it's a crit.

Can't stop it without magic items.Rube Goldberg

A +20 bonus?You put ranks in it, and you're randomly gonna use a spell for something you have no reason to suspect? Do you use that every time you meet a human?

Considering that the characters listed so far have no way to actually attack me? They are all defensive characters, and ones that aren't all that secure.A Raptoran Sniper? I made one on another thread. A RSB? I can come up with more if you need.

Sure I have, about 30K worth of items (plus the weirdstone).Check the prices of Greater Metamagic Rods.

RAW you can't create new items except traps. Forsaker also prevents you from using magic items.By RAW you CAN. That's the purpose of that table.

And the Forsaker is trash, ignore it.

[OracleofWuffing]

Rube Goldberg
Once you start drowning, you start dying the turn after, and you drown the turn after that. You can't stop drowning without DM intervention, even if you remove yourself from whatever's drowning you. Even if you are banished to the demiplane of not-drowning. Even if the Lady of Pain wants you to stop drowning.

Silly, yes, ridiculous, yes, madness, Sparta.

(Possible counter-idea: Make a build that can obliterate itself before the Wizard can? Does that count as being untouchable?)

[Little Brother]

Once you start drowning, you start dying the turn after, and you drown the turn after that. You can't stop drowning without DM intervention, even if you remove yourself from whatever's drowning you. Even if you are banished to the demiplane of not-drowning. Even if the Lady of Pain wants you to stop drowning.Explain. You are no longer drowning. Also, you're healing in the positive energy plane, so you won't be dying.


Silly, yes, ridiculous, yes, madness, Sparta.

(Possible counter-idea: Make a build that can obliterate itself before the Wizard can? Does that count as being untouchable?)The ninjas can't catch you if you're on fire...

[Emperor Tippy]

Why not?
Because the game doesn't work that way?


Nope. The plane of Shadows can, you can't. That's like saying just 'cuz there was an Artifact that could do X, I can make a Magic Item to do X


See Death Urge. If you attack yourself, it's a crit.
And Death Urge makes no mention of the coup de grace rules as it is not a coup de grace action. It also doesn't have the Fort save or die.

Rube Goldberg
If you want to say something just say it, stop with the two word answers that are either unclear or can easily be misinterpreted.

You put ranks in it, and you're randomly gonna use a spell for something you have no reason to suspect? Do you use that every time you meet a human?
I put at least 1 rank in all the knowledge skills so that I can make checks on them. Between my high Int, my masterwork tool, and a couple of other ancillary bonuses, I get +20 on the knowledge check. Knowing enemy types is kinda important for a spell caster, you kinda need to know what spells can kill which dudes. And now you are an Elan? I thought you were a human?

A Raptoran Sniper? I made one on another thread. A RSB? I can come up with more if you need.
Do you use metal items? Then you can't hurt me thanks to persistent Greater Iron Guard. Do you have continuous True Sight and/or mindsight? If you have TS then you might be able to see me depending upon a DM ruling, else mindsight is the only way to see me. Can you hit incorporeal targets? And after all that overcome DR 10/adamantium, but remember that your weapon can't be made of metal? And then there is the fact that I have fast healing 8 and am continuously under a haste effect.

That's a mere fraction of my always active standard defense package.


Check the prices of Greater Metamagic Rods.
Which I'm not actually using as I don't need them.

By RAW you CAN. That's the purpose of that table.
No, by RAW you can't. Everything on that table is an estimate and is purely for DM adjudication. The only things that there are actually RAW rules for are crafting traps, scrolls, potions, wands, eternal wands, and a few other similar types of items from various other sources. There are NO RAW rules for creating custom wondrous items.


And the Forsaker is trash, ignore it.
It's what the only builds posted so far have used. And yes I know that it's trash. Giving up magic items is incredibly stupid in D&D.

[Little Brother]

Because the game doesn't work that way?That IS how it works. You die, then you pick up the acquired template, get a jump in ECL.

And Death Urge makes no mention of the coup de grace rules as it is not a coup de grace action. It also doesn't have the Fort save or die. No, but it is a crit, which does the same purpose.

If you want to say something just say it, stop with the two word answers that are either unclear or can easily be misinterpreted.You do know who Rube Goldberg is, right? You do know what he is famous for, right? You do know what half the first page of a Google search for Rube Goldberg gets you, right? You do know what the vast majority of the first page of an image search gives you, right? How could that be misinterpreted? A Rube Goldberg devise.

I put at least 1 rank in all the knowledge skills so that I can make checks on them. Between my high Int, my masterwork tool, and a couple of other ancillary bonuses, I get +20 on the knowledge check. Knowing enemy types is kinda important for a spell caster, you kinda need to know what spells can kill which dudes. And now you are an Elan? I thought you were a human?I am listing off option. Depends on the build. If I am an RSB, I will probably be an Elan for all the delicious immunities, since I should have feats to spare.

And, okay. Making Knowledge checks isn't a free action. You'd start with a Local check, get nothing, and then run through the others.

Do you use metal items? Then you can't hurt me thanks to persistent Greater Iron Guard. Do you have continuous True Sight and/or mindsight? If you have TS then you might be able to see me depending upon a DM ruling, else mindsight is the only way to see me. Can you hit incorporeal targets? And after all that overcome DR 10/adamantium, but remember that your weapon can't be made of metal? And then there is the fact that I have fast healing 8 and am continuously under a haste effect.Hank's Bow, if I'm an Archer, so pure force, I'm doing well over enough damage, and yes, I can hit incorporeal things with force. Oh, and you don't get any of those if I'm in melee.

That's a mere fraction of my always active standard defense package.Cool, I'm using the standard archer's bow. Your lack of understanding of melee is astounding.

Which I'm not actually using as I don't need them.Uh, sure. Okay.

No, by RAW you can't. Everything on that table is an estimate and is purely for DM adjudication. The only things that there are actually RAW rules for are crafting traps, scrolls, potions, wands, eternal wands, and a few other similar types of items from various other sources. There are NO RAW rules for creating custom wondrous items.Uh, by RAW there ARE rules for crafting Wondrous Items, those are it.

It's what the only builds posted so far have used. And yes I know that it's trash. Giving up magic items is incredibly stupid in D&D.The builds that should be ignored. There are only a couple ways to even have a chance, and those aren't them. RSB and a good sniper(Which I'll try to update tonight, by the way) are your best bets.

[Emperor Tippy]

That IS how it works. You die, then you pick up the acquired template, get a jump in ECL.
And it requires DM adjudication.

No, but it is a crit, which does the same purpose.
Except you can't actually do what you are proposing unless you can cast Death Urge. Unless you can find another rule that lets you attack yourself and auto crit. Which there might be, but neither Coup de Grace or Death Urge are that rule.

You do know who Rube Goldberg is, right? You do know what he is famous for, right? You do know what half the first page of a Google search for Rube Goldberg gets you, right? You do know what the vast majority of the first page of an image search gives you, right? How could that be misinterpreted? A Rube Goldberg devise.
I know who he is, you weren't clear on what you were using his name in reference to.

I am listing off option. Depends on the build. If I am an RSB, I will probably be an Elan for all the delicious immunities, since I should have feats to spare.
So the Schrodinger Untouchable, got it.


And, okay. Making Knowledge checks isn't a free action. You'd start with a Local check, get nothing, and then run through the others.


Check

Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Action

Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.
"What is his species?" DM rolls relevant Knowledge check, provides information appropriate to result.


Hank's Bow, if I'm an Archer, so pure force, I'm doing well over enough damage, and yes, I can hit incorporeal things with force.
Which overcomes Ghost Form and DR. At least for 1 attack. Then I just shapechange into a wrymling Force Dragon for total immunity to any force effect.

Oh, and you don't get any of those if I'm in melee.
Your reasoning?


Cool, I'm using the standard archer's bow. Your lack of understanding of melee is astounding.
What lack of understanding? And how exactly are you forcing a melee engagement against an enemy you can't find?


Uh, sure. Okay.
To be more precise, I don't need them for anything I have mentioned doing yet.

Uh, by RAW there ARE rules for crafting Wondrous Items, those are it.
Your lack of understanding of the RAW rears it's head for at least the fourth time in two threads.


Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
By RAW you can no more claim a custom magic item than you can claim an artifact. The "rules" for custom magic items are just guidelines and specifically call out for DM judgement. They aren't allowed in most challenges or in TO.


The builds that should be ignored.
Then post something else.


There are only a couple ways to even have a chance, and those aren't them. RSB and a good sniper(Which I'll try to update tonight, by the way) are your best bets.
Best bet is a very relative term.

[Little Brother]

And it requires DM adjudication.Huh. Thought there were rules in Ghostwalk or something. Don't have it, so whatever,

Except you can't actually do what you are proposing unless you can cast Death Urge. Unless you can find another rule that lets you attack yourself and auto crit. Which there might be, but neither Coup de Grace or Death Urge are that rule.Not going to get itno part of this

Either way, how much does the positive energy plane heal a round? Just lie down on some spikes or something.

So the Schrodinger Untouchable, got it.No, not really. No more so than your wizard. I've set out the basics on which it'd be built to the same degree(actually a bit more) than your wizard in all these arguments.

"What is his species?" DM rolls relevant Knowledge check, provides information appropriate to result. No. This requires just as much DM intervention as the ghost thing. Otherwise you're going to keep having to make checks.

Oh, and combat isn't normal for thinking things through. Just sayin', it wouldn't qualify for "normally."

Which overcomes Ghost Form and DR. At least for 1 attack. Then I just shapechange into a wrymling Force Dragon for total immunity to any force effect.You think you're gonna get another round? If I get my attacks of, you're dead. Simple as that. Regardless, fine, I switch to those weird feather-arrow things.

Your reasoning?If I am in melee, I am a RSB. If I am an RSB, I have an AMF up. Your buffs do not work in my AMF.

What lack of understanding? And how exactly are you forcing a melee engagement against an enemy you can't find?By finding you?

To be more precise, I don't need them for anything I have mentioned doing yet. You've mentioned using them to have sufficient actions, but whatever, you can live in your own world.

Your lack of understanding of the RAW rears it's head for at least the fourth time in two threads.

By RAW you can no more claim a custom magic item than you can claim an artifact. The "rules" for custom magic items are just guidelines and specifically call out for DM judgement. They aren't allowed in most challenges or in TO.Those are followed until the DM says otherwise. That's what a guideline is. It's just enforcing "Rule 0 applies here." So, try again.

Then post something else.You already have access to my Raptoran Archer, so post a wizard. Seriously, playing Schrodinger's Wizard with you is irritating. Post a build and spells. Then we can get on with this. You people who don't even want to try with melee just say "Nope, this wizard has *random situational spell." Gimme a build or stop talking.

Best bet is a very relative term.Not at all

[Chained Birds]

I wonder when this thread devolved to "How to kill a paranoid wizard?"
I'll add that sending an immortal to space simply makes him an immortal in space, not a dead one. There can be a way to imprison an invulnerable character, but as countless heroic tales have answered, a sealed being will eventually be releases after X years/centuries. So, still no kill on the wizard's side by the current builds presented (I think).

[Little Brother]

I wonder when this thread devolved to "How to kill a paranoid wizard?"
I'll add that sending an immortal to space simply makes him an immortal in space, not a dead one. There can be a way to imprison an invulnerable character, but as countless heroic tales have answered, a sealed being will eventually be releases after X years/centuries. So, still no kill on the wizard's side by the current builds presented (I think).Dark Raptoran sniper with Hank's Bow turned into a Footbow and with Splitting attached. While raging. More than enough damage.

[Chained Birds]

Dark Raptoran sniper with Hank's Bow turned into a Footbow and with Splitting attached. While raging. More than enough damage.

I meant the wizard hasn't "killed" anyone yet. I'm sure your build can successfully snipe the wizard presented unless he has anything else to say against it.

[OracleofWuffing]

Explain. You are no longer drowning. Also, you're healing in the positive energy plane, so you won't be dying.
Drowning rules are listed under environment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm), you can also find them on page 304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.
There is nothing in the rules saying that you stop drowning if you are removed from the drowning substance. The effects of drowning occur because you failed a Constitution check, not because you remain in a suffocating substance.

In other words, there is no way to remove the drowning condition because drowning is not a condition. It is instead a set of rules, which execute in order with no regard to the material in which you stand. Imagine, if you will, a fancy multiple-component machine where a marble goes down a chute to flip a man into a tub to turn on a fan to blow a sailboat to knock down some dominoes to hit a switch to turn on a lightswitch. Now imagine that there is no way for you to interfere with the progress of those various items: that's the drowning rules.
Gee, someone should really come up with a name for those contraptions, maybe name them after a guy that's famous for making those or something.

That said, there are grounds for saying that being drowned is not a concern as it doesn't actually kill you, much like how being dead doesn't prevent you from taking actions. However, I was only here to clarify what was meant by the "Can't stop it" line there, and don't really wish to speak at length about the benefits of death or having drowned.

[Dragonsoul]

Of course, the funny thing is I never wanted to kill the wizard, so much so I took vow of peace for the extra AC so I couldn't kill the wizard if I wanted to...

Of course, its not hard to kill any given wizard <w>, the problem is you are trying to defeat W, the set of all given wizards, which is a near infinite set, its like trying to find a number greater than <n> which is any given number- that's easy but trying to find a number that is greater than <N> which is all numbers is impossible for the same reason.

and yes, I did just bring set theory into a discussion about d&d wizards.

[PowerGamer]

Vow Of Poverty!!!! It's Sooo Broken!!!

[hex0]

I'm going to ignore the debates going on and point out the merits of having both Mettle and Evasion. That is all. :smallcool:

[Little Brother]

Vow Of Poverty!!!! It's Sooo Broken!!!Broken like the truenamer.

[molten_dragon]

So, as a theoretical exercise I want to see what people think of trying to make a character that is close to unkillable as possible, rather than merely doing 10^x Damage or becoming batman without your parents dying horrible deaths.

To make things slightly trickier- No spells,otherwise it becomes an affair of Turtleshape,celerity and precognition-Not the correct spirit, sure you can dip into spellcasting classes (Like into Cleric for Domain powers) but no spellcasting itself.

Of course the high end of this exercise is being able to survive a spellcaster going nuclear on your ass(Which may be tricky)/Pissed offed Barbarian yelling ChAaaArge!!.
As a starting point,
Have Drow Monk 2/Multiple dips that give +2/+2/+2 at level 1/Pious templear/ Forsaker 10

This gives you saves of around +50/+50/+50 Mettle,Evasion and SR 50,

To make things slightly easier Assume Partial BAB and saves.

Now Edited for readability:smallbiggrin:

It's not exactly what you're looking for, because it's a monster instead of a PC, but the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) is as close to being unkillable as it's possible to get in D&D, short of pun-pun. It doesn't use spells to do it either.

[The Succubus]

Make me untouchable....

Easily done. Just cast Blessing of MC Hammer on yourself.

[DeMouse]

I would go for the 50 SR but not worry abotu saves since most spells that allow a save also allow SR. Instead aim for Touch AC.

With high touch AC as well as SR (and uncanny dodge if you can find a way to get it) You will be truly untochable.

[Gotterdammerung]

I pass my knowledge the planes check to learn about Major positive dominant planar traits.

I spend some time sheering off bits of my body and then regrow them with my regeneration and the fast healing.

I save up some blood.

I arrange a bloody explosive mess and cover myself in blood.

I wait patiently.

You come years later to check on me/ loot my body.

You are in an area on your plane that does not allow any magic to work.

When you get close, I jump up and pown you. I win.

It was a good thing I can't fail fort saves on a 1.

Shoulda gated me into a pool of lava or something. Oh well, too late now, you died.

[Wings of Peace]

1. ???
2. You're now a Demilich
3. ???
4. You're now immune to damage
5. ???
6 Profit!