At what level...? [3.X] [Zombies]

[NineThePuma]

Does the standard Zombie Apocalypse break down? By standard I mean infection runs rampant through an area and you have to find your way out.

Assuming that the zombies in question were Ghouls or Ghasts, naturally.

Wights are also an option.

[Psyren]

What do you mean "break down?" When it ceases to be a threat?

[NineThePuma]

Yes. Basically, when you have the capacity to completely and utterly end the zombie menace. Perhaps not permanently, but with sufficient thoroughness that future outbreaks will be future outbreaks rather than extensions of the current outbreak.

[Psyren]

Well, at 5 I guess you could fly away from them all and research a cure.

A permanent solution varies by class. A Psion/Erudite for instance can get infinite PP at 7 and just start mowing them down while staying out of reach. He wouldn't even need to eat/drink, in case the virus is in the water supply or there is no food or something.

Pun-Pun ends it at ECL 1

[OldFart]

Assuming the outbreak is limited to ghouls, ghasts, and wights, level 5.

At that point, 3rd level divine and arcane spells give the survivors several options to survive indefinitely, even if they must cede most of the territory to the undead. Given enough time, the survivors will likely be able to craft a large number of expendable resources (wands, wondrous items, scrolls, alchemical items, spell effects that last until use, etc.). Their only real limitation will be generation of economic resources - again, easily accomplished at 5th level (for that matter, anyone w/ craft: ladder can do it). Eventually, they will have enough at their disposal to ensure victory over x undead opponents, where x = local humanoid population. It's really not a matter of if the survivors win, so much as when.

If you're plotting a campaign, I'd recommend a time-sensitive plot element, or introduction of more powerful undead, or at least those with incorporeal subtypes and/or possession or charm effects.

[NineThePuma]

Okay, throwing out crafting though?

[NineThePuma]

Thaw weird, it's not showing my post.

Edit:
Oh, and I meant for a stereotypical adventuring party, or even a group of NPCs.

[Jack_Simth]

Thaw weird, it's not showing my post.

Edit:
Oh, and I meant for a stereotypical adventuring party, or even a group of NPCs.
A stereotypical adventuring party of a Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, and Fighter?

Still depends on the builds a bit... but let's see...

Ghouls and Ghasts are Int-13, with a spawn delay based on the disease... and they have to hurt, but not immediately kill, someone to spawn ... which means there are going to be a lot less of them.

Wights are Int-11, but they can just kill things to make spawn, and they have a spawn delay of 1d4 rounds ... which means there are going to be a rather lot of them.

If you don't mind letting them wipe out the local population, then yes, an adventuring party built well can eventually beat them all at around level 5-ish ... mostly by hit-and-run tactics against a population of opponents that becomes strictly decreasing once they've wiped out the local population of humanoids.

It's a lot easier once you hit 9th or so (Lesser Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) for Teleporting Meatshields with DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon) or maybe a Flying Teleporting ranged attacker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon)).

[Midnight_v]

Does the standard Zombie Apocalypse break down? By standard I mean infection runs rampant through an area and you have to find your way out.

Assuming that the zombies in question were Ghouls or Ghasts, naturally.

Wights are also an option.

Are shadows an option? Zombies aren't contagious, ghouls, ghasts are contagious but shadows... the whole "Shadow over the Sun" thing totally works in D&D easily and works for a long time because by the time it gets rolling it'd really be too late for some cities. There are a couple movies about that Pulse (wraiths), and Miracle on 7th street (shadows)
Mostly because of the incorpreality and of course str drain touch attacks. . . nice touch attacks.
Ghouls fever is too slow by the way. The incubation, raising at the next midnight etc. . .

Kyuss zombies work for this purpose etc... but ultimately the movie zombies are in a funny spot between monsters in D&D.

Also:
Assuming the outbreak is limited to ghouls, ghasts, and wights, level 5.
...and protecting a civilian(i.e. non adventuring/hero) populace from this might make for a better mission
Ultimately, though people would need a really mean D&D creature do make the zombie apocalypse go off at levels higher than 5. Effigy's, The Drowned, and Duskwights come to mind, and the Hullathion I guess... but then we're just talking high level undead which might just be something different.

Edit: I just went and looked at the srd... there has been an edit that states spawn effects from all of the above monsters... only affect "Humanoids" that wasn't always so for shadows. . .

[NineThePuma]

So, Wights are the deadlier.

Wights can also advance by Character Class though; I'm mentally imagining a Wight picking off individuals. Population dwindling in a more horrorish fashion, and then having them suddenly mob the threats and trying to take them down through numbers...

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem with Wights is that they have to lay siege normally... No climb, burrow, fly, etc. City walls will protect perfectly well against Wights...

[Jack_Simth]

The problem with Wights is that they have to lay siege normally... No climb, burrow, fly, etc. City walls will protect perfectly well against Wights...
Ghouls and Ghasts have the same limitation. It's... actually most of what makes ending an outbreak viable at lowish levels.

It's the Spectre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) that'll really bomb a town. Incorporeal, touch attack that deals negative levels, and a 1d4 round raise time. They're much higher CR, though (7, vs the 1 for Ghouls, or 3 for Ghasts and Wights).

[dgnslyr]

But if you're limited to your own city walls, how will you be able to feed.... right, magic.

Still, any scenario that involves fortifying yourself within a city and practically never leaving doesn't bode well for the populace. If it comes down to that, then everybody living outside a walled city ( ie. the vast majority of the population) would be dead, so I guess it would be a matter of whittling away at the zombies once they've ran out of people to eat.

[NineThePuma]

What's the climb DC for your average village wall?

Also, I'm imagining that the initial outbreak of Wights could have been caused by a (former) adventurer Wight, with levels in Rogue.

[Midnight_v]

Hmm... I like the spectre better than the greater shadow for this alone really:


A spectre looks much as it did in life and can be easily recognized by those who knew the individual or have seen the individual’s face in a painting or a drawing. In many cases, the evidence of a violent death is visible on its body. A spectre is roughly human-sized and is weightless
So you know, you keep the horrific feel of seeing your loved ones zomibied out.
Though for the base zombie apocalypse, the zombies shouldn't be able to walk through walls, or turn doorknobs but they do tear those things down.

I think the Apocalypse zombie needs a custom template, now that I think of it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, a Siege is a Siege is a Siege. It doesn't matter if their are Huns or Wights outside the gates, it still sucks...

What happens in a siege is that people who live outside the fort or city go and crowd in the city, or die, or hide... that's what sieges are, when a bunch of farmers go and retreat into the local fort...

Also, can Wights starve?

[Jack_Simth]

Also, can Wights starve?In Core, no. If Libris Mortis is in play, then Wights have an "Inescapable Craving" - hitting someone for a negative level gets them fine for 1 day, after that it's a DC 25 Will save or take 1d6 Wis damage, resulting in the beast having "no volition of its own, no judgement to deter it from seeking its preferred morsel, even if destruction seems likely thereafter" when Wis drops to 0.

Ghouls and Ghasts must eat at least once every three days, at which point, they start making DC 15 Will saves to avoid 2d4 Wis damage - with the same result as for the Wights.

[NineThePuma]

Okay, so my running idea, that I came up with just now, is someone sets off a Wightocolypse and the party is sent to investigate the area, and they get several miles into the affected area without a single sign of (non-plant) life.

Then they suddenly get jumped by a pack of wights trying to force them further into the Dead Zone.

[Gavinfoxx]

So, uh... why isn't the party flying?

[Emperor Tippy]

Ghouls and Ghasts have the same limitation. It's... actually most of what makes ending an outbreak viable at lowish levels.

It's the Spectre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) that'll really bomb a town. Incorporeal, touch attack that deals negative levels, and a 1d4 round raise time. They're much higher CR, though (7, vs the 1 for Ghouls, or 3 for Ghasts and Wights).

Wraiths as well. Con drain, 1d4 round raise time, incorporeal. The daylight powerlessness sucks but enough Wraiths can bring down even high end adventurers without too much trouble.

[NineThePuma]

So, uh... why isn't the party flying?

How much would a typical player demand to go do this if they were that strong? It's simply cheaper for them to send some lowbies when they don't know what's going on.

That and my party sees flying as nifty, but not worth the expense in spell slots to do for whole adventures.

Perhaps, as an additional, there are political reasons; the area affected is a contested border between two kingdoms, and the players are hired by a third party.

Or the event, horribly destructive as it is, has affected the way magic works, and divinations aren't working into the region.

[Midnight_v]

Oh I see... fiat, fiat, fiat. :smallfrown:


Or the event, horribly destructive as it is, has affected the way magic works, and divinations aren't working into the region Dark Road that way lies.


That and my party sees flying as nifty, but not worth the expense in spell slots to do for whole adventures.
Thats actually a decent answer.

[NineThePuma]

I generally have a much lower "level tolerance" than most other DMs I know; I despise FR's habit of having massively powerful Epic Characters laying around. This in part because at higher levels (IMO, 8+) casters start dominating everything, sometimes literally, and in part because as a DM I'm relatively inexperienced. I know how to tell a story. I know how to improvise players back to the rails. But I could never adapt everything all the way from the rails.

Ergo, mundane options are usually favored over magical options. Sending a low level party is easier than going and paying a spell caster to deal with it.

[Arbane]

I think the Apocalypse zombie needs a custom template, now that I think of it.

Would you settle for a monster listing?

Apocalypse Zombie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie/apocalypse-zombie).
It's for Pathfinder, though.

[vitkiraven]

I could have sworn that on the wizard site they had an an anthropophagy zombie template, but I am AFK, so I can't find it.