Spirit Shaman: Tier 1 or 2?

[deuxhero]

I have yet to see a clear answer on this.


If you didn't know, SS is a spontanous caster that picks its spell known daily from the druid list with separate stats for spell known and saving throws. The rest of it's class features are lame and highly specific.

[Big Fau]

It's the border between the two tiers. Kinda like non-StP Erudite in a game where Eberron/DSP material is banned.

[deuxhero]

How does Eberron material buff the Erudite?

[Big Fau]

How does Eberron material buff the Erudite?

Several Eberron splats have Psionic Powers, some of which are solid choices.

[gbprime]

Tier 2. It doesn't have the combat monster capability of either cleric or druid, so it's basically a druid without wildshape.

[Tokuhara]

Spirit Shaman, Wilder, Shugenja/Favored Soul, and Sorcerer are appx in the same boat

[Arcane_Snowman]

I'd say high tier 2 as well, the Druid spell list is slightly inferior to the Cleric, but Spirit Shaman has a ridiculously good casting system, so if you could increase it's spell list to include some of the better divine/arcane spells, you'd be more than golden.

[Flickerdart]

It's easily at the high end of T2, however. Erudite, on the other hand, is T1 even without StP so long as you take the liberal reading of 99 UPD.

[gbprime]

I'd say high tier 2 as well, the Druid spell list is slightly inferior to the Cleric, but Spirit Shaman has a ridiculously good casting system, so if you could increase it's spell list to include some of the better divine/arcane spells, you'd be more than golden.

Yeahbut Spirit Shaman is also one of those crazy splits between WIS and CHA. So unless you have access to feats in Dragonlance: Age of Mortals or some homebrew in your campaign, you're stuck with two primary casting stats.

That lowers it down the Tier 2 a bit.

[Little Brother]

It's the border between the two tiers. Kinda like an unoptimized non-StP Erudite in a game where Eberron/DSP material is banned.Fixed it for you.

Erudites are FAR too good to be tier two if you put any work into it, just from the ACFs alone.

[gbprime]

Fixed it for you.

Erudites are FAR too good to be tier two if you put any work into it, just from the ACFs alone.

Part of the reason my game group cut out psionics altogether. Eliminates a fair amount of cheese as well as a second system of powers the less-bookish people have to keep track of.

[Big Fau]

Part of the reason my game group cut out psionics altogether. Eliminates a fair amount of cheese as well as a second system of powers the less-bookish people have to keep track of.

Um, what? The cheese is because of the Erudite class itself, not the Psionic system as a whole. One bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch.

[Little Brother]

Part of the reason my game group cut out psionics altogether. Eliminates a fair amount of cheese as well as a second system of powers the less-bookish people have to keep track of.


Um, what? The cheese is because of the Erudite class itself, not the Psionic system as a whole. One bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch.This. I'd be just as easy and more effective to cut out magic. In my experience, you have to watch a sorcerer/wizard/cleric/etc. all the wway to make sure they don't, accidentally or not, do something really stupid busted. With psionics, I just say "No erudite" and throw the book at them, and leave them to it.

[DeAnno]

If the Druid spell list is Tier 1 (I'm inclined to say yes), then a Spirit Shaman is Tier 1. As far as I can tell, if you are a prepared full caster you're tier 1 in this system, and if you're a spells known full caster you're tier 2. Sure, they probably have slightly less in the way of maximum punch than T2s like the Psion and Sorcerer, but that isn't really the criteria for being Tier 1.

[Arcane_Snowman]

If the Druid spell list is Tier 1 (I'm inclined to say yes), then a Spirit Shaman is Tier 1. But the Druid spell list isn't Tier 1, in core, the only spell they have that meets the cheesy meter is Shapechange, granted it's one of the better ones because of it's versatility, but the list as a whole still lacks a hell of a lot of impact.

The difference here is Wildshape.

[Big Fau]

But the Druid spell list isn't Tier 1, in core, the only spell they have that meets the cheesy meter is Shapechange, granted it's one of the better ones because of it's versatility, but the list as a whole still lacks a hell of a lot of impact.

The difference here is Wildshape.

They have several BC spells that work wonderfully in your typical encounter, and they also have one or two campaign-breakers (Scry being the first to spring to mind).

They have a Tier 1 list. It takes some heavy reading, but the list is only marginally weaker than the Cleric's (non-domain) list.

[Arcane_Snowman]

They have several BC spells that work wonderfully in your typical encounter, and they also have one or two campaign-breakers (Scry being the first to spring to mind). But no teleport, Scry is a good spell without teleport. With access to teleport it's extraordinary as we then have the much hated/campaign breaker Scry 'n Die tactic coming into play.


They have a Tier 1 list. It takes some heavy reading, but the list is only marginally weaker than the Cleric's (non-domain) list.

Of the standard cheese spells the spell lists have:
Cleric Scans Domains: Planar Ally line, Gate, and Miracle.

Druid: Shapechange.

Cleric spell list likewise has a number of very good save or dies, and combat buff spells. Whereas the Druid spell list is somewhat more limited in those areas.

Granted, Shapechange is one of the better spells, if not amongst the best, seeing as it can give access to most of the other spells in question, but it's at the end of a very good as opposed to an extraordinary spell list. That's the difference I'm arguing, very good against extraordinary. The difference between tier 2 and tier 1.

[MeeposFire]

Spirit shaman is somewhere in tier 2. This is due to it having full 9th level spells but it is spontaneous casting. Now it can change spells every day (which is very useful) but you are severely limited in how many spells at a time and you have to wait for the next day to change them. You only get 3 spell choices per spell level (and while metamagic is faster in order to use it you must use a spell known). That is tiny. You will likely want more. Remember wizards are tier one over sorcs because they can change everyday AND can get more variety in spell slots when needed per day. Compare to the favored soul which has the cleric list and about double the spells known. The FS can't change spells daily but it will have more variety at a time seems really close to me.

I think the SS can be tier one if you can increase their number of spells known a bit. Perhaps if you got sorc level spells known or better FS levels.

[Tokuhara]

However, druid has some of the premier Battlefield Control spells on their list.

[MeeposFire]

However, druid has some of the premier Battlefield Control spells on their list.

Indeed which is part of the reason that druids are tier 1 and the SS is based on that. If the spell list was not at that level then the druid would not be tier 1 to begin with (wild shape is really only good enough for tier 3 on its own and it is the spells, and the spells alone in reality, that pushes the druid up the tiers).

[GoatBoy]

Unlimited access to a spell list means tier 1 by definition, but the fact that SS's need 2 casting stats and lack the useful druid non-casting abilities put them to tier 2 in practice. One of the rare occurrences where the tier system doesn't quite sum up the actual usefulness of a class.

Same story with the erudite. Unlimited spell (power) list, but there aren't nearly as many published powers as there are spells, so spellcasting will always be the better option. That is, unless you use the spell-to-power variant, in which case, may the gods have mercy on your soul.

The class tier system is an excellent way of comparing classes, but it isn't bar-none the only way.

[Ernir]

The class has significant day-to-day flexibility. Any one Spirit Shaman isn't any more locked into its tricks than a Cleric is. It can't be Tier 2.

If the practical limitations of the class are enough to push it out of Tier 1, it'd fall down to Tier 3, not Tier 2.

[MeeposFire]

The class has significant day-to-day flexibility. Any one Spirit Shaman isn't any more locked into its tricks than a Cleric is. It can't be Tier 2.

If the practical limitations of the class are enough to push it out of Tier 1, it'd fall down to Tier 3, not Tier 2.

Even with its spell limit it is still far too powerful to be limited to tier 3. However tier 1 requires you to be able to change your tools to the situation and that you have enough tools at a time. The spirit shaman can get the changing tools part but it is much more limited than a druid in how many tools it can have at once. That makes it very similar to a sorcerer and that makes a strong case for tier 2.

[Tokuhara]

Well, let's look at the basic features:

9th Level Spells (Tier 1) Lots of Long-term options
Two Casting scores (Probably -2 Tiers) It's really hard to Min-Max with a necessity for 3 scores (CON, WIS, CHA)
Druid Spell List (+1) (Great for Battlefield Control)
Spontaneous (+/-0) (More/Day, Less Known)

[MukkTB]

The definition of tiers is its either game breaking or not. If its game breaking its tier 1/2. If its not its tier 3/4. The difference between 1 and 2 is versatility. The spirit shaman has full versatility. Its either very low tier 1 or very high tier 3.

So, is the Druid spell list alone T1?

[MeeposFire]

The definition of tiers is its either game breaking or not. If its game breaking its tier 1/2. If its not its tier 3/4. The difference between 1 and 2 is versatility. The spirit shaman has full versatility. Its either very low tier 1 or very high tier 3.

So, is the Druid spell list alone T1?

Yes that has been said many times by many people. However it has daily versatility but you are restricted to how much you have at once. That is a major restriction. If you need 4 of X level spells then you are just as bad off as the sorcerer. 3 spells per level is a major restriction especially on divine classes (which in the UA book are said to need more spells known that their arcane counter parts). The spirit shaman can still break the game but can't do it in so many ways at once and cannot keep as many tricks at one time as a favored soul can (though he can change his fewer tricks every day).

[Grendus]

Remember that classes can go up or down a tier by optimization. I think the usual "upper T2" characterizes it very well. It isn't going to be carrying the same versatility of spells and abilities that a druid, or any T1 for that matter, will. If you cherry pick the best all-purpose spells and play/are allowed to play proactively, however, it will play like a T1 - it will always have the right spell for the job on hand. It's either low T1 or high T2, and the tiers are really less of a hard line and more of a gray area anyways. It's a very strong class, and probably a good druid replacement if you want to let your players have the nature based caster fun without limiting them to mystic ranger.

[MeeposFire]

I tend to think very strong tier 2. I also love the spell mechanic they use. Very cool and fun.

[kulosle]

so a good way to decide this is ask whether or not its better or worse than all the other tier 1 or 2.
tier 1 Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite
tier 2 Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder

i've seen the argument that they have the same versatility as a clerics so that they must be tier 1, but clerics have turn undead. this is truly what makes them tier 1, besides the spell list. there is no doubt that this class is weaker than the druid. much less versatility than an archivist, artificer or erudite. and the wizard spell list is definitely better than the druids.

the class has more versatility than the sorcerer and favored sould, because they get to change their spells known. and arguably on par with the psion and binder. so i would have to say they are a tier 2.

the double casting stat is what really hurts them. stats needed: wis cha con dex. wow that sucks. druids only need wis and con. (dex is to hit and ac but druids can wild shape into something with a good dex.)

[darksolitaire]

Can spirit shaman actually break the game (without Shapechange, of course)? I don't know what spells druid's list gains from splats, so for me the spell list looks much less powerful then clerics' and wizards' lists. Spirit Shaman is versatile in it's own way, and has good spells no doubt, but can it actually beat level appropriate encounters with just a spell or two, like tier 1's and 2's?

[Human Paragon 3]

Binder is T2? How?

[TheGeckoKing]

Binder is T2? How?

The idea is because they have a scaling Summon Monster on tap from 12th level, with a minor alternation. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)
However, I'm not sure an ability gained at 12th level is early enough for Binder to really be classed as a T2.

[Amphetryon]

It's been argued before - and I'm inclined to agree - that the Druid's spell list is the weakest of the core casters with 9s, and therefore the weakest of the Tier 1s. As the Spirit Shaman uses that list, doesn't get a free Fighter animal companion as a class feature, and has a harder time transmogrifying into a front-line combat monster via wild shape, I'd say that Tier 2 is probably accurate.

[MeeposFire]

Binder is T2? How?

Tier 3 generally. They are only considered tier 2 when you have access to one particular vestige from an online article. Not sure why they felt the need to really differentiate that for just one vestige but that is what it is.

[Little Brother]

Tier 3 generally. They are only considered tier 2 when you have access to one particular vestige from an online article. Not sure why they felt the need to really differentiate that for just one vestige but that is what it is.Because the vestige is that good? Free immunities(Becoming an outsider is nice), free energy resistance and(admittedly minor) DR, free Mindsight(No you cannot sneak up on me), free SR, free amazing debuff, free 1/day true strike, and free book-diving for a massive amount of SLAs near at-will? Oh, and a stun? Yes please!

[Human Paragon 3]

That sounds good and everything but... no 9th level spells. No 8th level spells.

It's a few useful imunuties and SR. Oh, and stunning. If that's all it took for tier 2, monk would be tier 2. True strike is a first level spell. Mindsight is nice, but doesn't end encounters, just makes them moderately easier.

[Little Brother]

That sounds good and everything but... no 9th level spells. No 8th level spells.

It's a few useful imunuties and SR. Oh, and stunning. If that's all it took for tier 2, monk would be tier 2. True strike is a first level spell. Mindsight is nice, but doesn't end encounters, just makes them moderately easier.Free summon monster. Now tell me what all things with nasty SLAs I can summon at will again. Everything one the summon monster table below 9th.

And, no. These features are enough to make a class by itself, but I can combine it with a number of other vestiges. And the monk is a lot less than that. And mindsight doesn't end encounters, it starts them. That's what's important. It lets you steal the surprise round.

Again, summon monster at will. There are monsters with really nice SLAs on the list if you have enough splats.

[Human Paragon 3]

The power of a binder with this vestige does not approach that of a core-only sorcerer. Sounds like high tier-3 to me, and that's if you're willing to go dumpster diving.

Back on track though:

Has anybody here played a spirit shaman? If so, how did it play? I'm actually interested in trying one out.

[Gnaeus]

If the Druid spell list is Tier 1 (I'm inclined to say yes), then a Spirit Shaman is Tier 1. As far as I can tell, if you are a prepared full caster you're tier 1 in this system, and if you're a spells known full caster you're tier 2. Sure, they probably have slightly less in the way of maximum punch than T2s like the Psion and Sorcerer, but that isn't really the criteria for being Tier 1.

Quoted for truth. Tiers measure versatility, not power. Spirit shaman is less powerful than most of the T2s, maybe even the stronger tier 3s, but the ability to pick your powers for the day off of a giant spell list makes you T1.



Has anybody here played a spirit shaman? If so, how did it play? I'm actually interested in trying one out.

Playing one now. Frankly, I'm underwelmed. The druid list is T1, but it contains lots of spells that either suck for a Spirit Shaman to cast, or aren't worth using up your single spell known for the day for your top one or two spell levels. The big three, for example, if they know they will be fighting a Foo, can prep anti-Foo spells while retaining enough spell slots for general versatility. A Spirit Shaman often can't.

(It hurts that the game I am playing contains a lot of areas where dimensional travel, and by extension from my DM, summon natures ally, are blocked, so if my prepped spells don't help I am pretty gimped.)

[MukkTB]

I still don't see tier 2. There are no decisions you make in the core class that limit its flexibility. Yes you have to pick spells in the morning, but so do Wizards. A Sorcerer is stuck with his spell selection forever bar a few changes. A Spirit Shaman is stuck with his spell selection until the next day. There is no inflexibility within the class beyond the normal feat selection being stuck once done thing.

If the Druid spell list has multiple ways to break the game the Spirit shaman can do them all. If the druid spell list is Tier 1 then the spirit shaman is tier 1. If the druid spell list cannot break the game then the spirit shaman is tier 3. I guess the spirit shaman would be tier 2 if there were only 1 or 2 ways to break the game in the druid spell list.

Are people that argue the spirit shaman is tier 2 actually arguing that the druid spell list is tier 2? Its the only thing that makes sense to me.

[JaronK]

I haven't played one so I can't be sure, but it's either T1 or T3. T2 is sort of a special tier, marked by game breaking power but more limited flexibility (T3s are more flexible). Spirit Shamen can pick their spells as needed, so they have plenty of flexibility... they just have a bit less raw power (though there's still a ton). So, either they're very high in T3, or very low in T1... really not sure.

Note that in the original tier system, T2 and 3 were merged into one. However, that didn't really reflect well how the classes got along together... T2s can absolutely hang out with T1s (they have the same tricks, just fewer of them), while T3s have a harder time (they're not really playing in the same league).

As for the Zceryll thing, Binders can count as T2 while binding that vestige only (generally they're T3). The ability to do things like spam Divination at will (cast by different creatures so they can verify the results), create any amount of vegetable matter via Genies (Black Lotus Poison/Sinmaker's Surprise, Bronzewood/Soarwood/Darkwood/Wildwood, Earthsilk, Canath Fruit, etc), create enough in combat healing to be extremely useful (spam heal!) and so on gives them a few insanely powerful, even game breaking tricks... but they don't have THAT many super tricks.

Anyway, Spirit Shaman should be able to hang out in a T3 group (but be a bit strong) or a T1 group (but not be quite as strong). Annoying, that makes them seem like they ought to count as sort of their own version of T2. I dunno. There's a reason I didn't put them in there.

JaronK

[MeeposFire]

Because the vestige is that good? Free immunities(Becoming an outsider is nice), free energy resistance and(admittedly minor) DR, free Mindsight(No you cannot sneak up on me), free SR, free amazing debuff, free 1/day true strike, and free book-diving for a massive amount of SLAs near at-will? Oh, and a stun? Yes please!

Oh I know it is powerful I just don't see it being worth pointing it out specifically as a full different tier on its own. I would just say it is the exception and not worry about it (most everything else is a full on class ability rather than just a single spell or similar).

[darkdragoon]

No Wildshape or companion. Spirit form has utility of course, but it's not the same. Druid buffs aren't quite as useful when you have two less bear dinosaur shark dragons etc. to throw them on.

They can summon well, but that means actually filling slots with SNA and while they qualify for things like Greenbound others are Druid-specific.

Their anti-spirit features are quite dependent on running into a ton of incorporeal foes. Also keep in mind it came out when ghost touch was far harder to obtain.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think the SS's main class features have been ignored so far.

They're all pretty good, honestly, and most of them (like the free contingent super heal, auto-ghost touch and incorporeal form) don't even depend on encountering specific enemies.

Spirits aren't just incorporeal undead either. It also includes all fey, outsiders and elementals. Being able to strip the SR and DR off of all your enemies is pretty great.

[MeeposFire]

I think the SS's main class features have been ignored so far.

They're all pretty good, honestly, and most of them (like the free contingent super heal, auto-ghost touch and incorporeal form) don't even depend on encountering specific enemies.

Spirits aren't just incorporeal undead either. It also includes all fey, outsiders and elementals. Being able to strip the SR and DR off of all your enemies is pretty great.

They are fine features but they are not the sort of features that would change a tier in the 1-3 range.

[nedz]

There was a thread debating this exact point a couple of months ago and the concensus was T1, just. Basically the arguement was: you are a prepared caster and can change your spells depending upon what you are expecting to face each day. Admittedly you are not as strong as the big 5, but you are a stronger caster than spontaneous Druid which is T2.
As for the MAD, well you can dump Cha. There are solid spells which don't require save DCs: Buffs obviously, Summoning, and also things like Ice Storm. It would limit your Chastise Spirits., but that is situational anyway.
You are blocked from many Druid PrCs which have druid pre-reqs, but you can get domains - though not spontaneously.
You can get the Spontaneous Sumoner feat - which helps broaden your high level spells, but its hard to pull many tricks like this.

[Amphetryon]

Corollary question: Excepting circumstances where Druid is forbidden as an option, is there a compelling reason to take Spirit Shaman aside from "toning down the Druid's abilities a bit"?

[Little Brother]

Corollary question: Excepting circumstances where Druid is forbidden as an option, is there a compelling reason to take Spirit Shaman aside from "toning down the Druid's abilities a bit"?'Cuz it has a good mechanic for a spontaneous caster, and isn't psionic(which some DMs hate)? Well designed mechanism, as full casters go, anyways.

[kulosle]

the tier system measures both versatility and power. if the wizards spell list was entirely made up of spells that had saves, spell resistance, required an attack roll, and took a full round action or longer the class would be dropped to tier 2 or 3. i don't believe that a spell list determines your tier level, sorcerers are tier 2. the druid list is definitely tier 1, way too many ways to break the game, especially when you dive hard into splat books. the main point is, as pointed out earlier, they don't have enough of them to abuse it.

i've also played a spirit shaman before and i will admit that the original downside is people try too hard to play them like a druid, which they are not. once i got use to the class and got out of low levels, cause god do they suck in low levels, they are great fun, but they still aren't tier 1. with my spells i can end 1 maybe 2 encounters per day, but the usual is 4 and several DM's, mine included, dish out a number of encounters that makes that number look like a joke.

also your feats are eaten up like mad. as you play you start to realize that certain feats become a must, spontaneous summoner was already mention, there were others that i cant recall at this late hour, but i only ended up choosing 2-3 of my feats. the rest seemed mandatory.

[Acanous]

SS is a solid T2 IMO. Really, they can do some cool stuff, but your build is practically set in stone, your spells, while you get to pick them daily, are stuck as meat and potatoes or you're screwed, you can't effectively break the economy, you can't infinate anything combo 'till the very end of the game...