Viability of a Rouge/Paladin gestalt? (Aka, the Rodin)

[Sgt. Cookie]

On one of the D&D demotivator threads (I think it was four?) a poster came up about a "Rogue/Paladin". Someone else retorted with that it would rely on every stat. And then someone else stated that with feats it would go down to three.

Going off on a tangent there but it seemed important.

From the research I've done, aside from the stat requirement, by using this this gestalt, assuming you make full use of the paladin's armour proficiency, the only downside is, evasion is useless to you.

My question is, would this be a viable gestalt?

[Eldariel]

What's your definition of "viable", sir?

[Glimbur]

Honestly, if you're going combat rogue rather than skill rogue you don't need any more stats than a paladin would. If you forget about sneak attack evasion and Hide/Move Silently you can wear heavy armor so you don't need as much dex, and if you don't need all of the skills you don't need int. That said, what paladin brings to the table, rather than fighter+PrCs or barbarian + PrCs, is spellcasting, Divine Grace, smites, and a horse.

It's stronger than either a paladin or a rogue alone, but
What's your definition of "viable", sir?

Edit: Derp'd. Can't evade in armor, can sneak attack. That's one of the main advantages, honestly.

[Heliomance]

Hmm, Rouge/Paladin sounds like a good entry into the Sacred Prostitute from BoEF, if you ask me.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I suppose how use able or effective this gestalt would be is my definition of "viable". This isn't for any specific game, mind you, I am just curious to see if it would be worth a try.


If you forget about sneak attack
According to the PHB, sneak attack isn't restricted by armour. Granted, you wont get as much use out of it since it's not full on stealth, but it would still have it's time to shine.

[Eldariel]

I suppose how use able or effective this gestalt would be is my definition of "viable". This isn't for any specific game, mind you, I am just curious to see if it would be worth a try.

Viable compared to strong Gestalts? No. Any caster gestalt is trivially many folds stronger. Also, more synergistic martial combinations are lightyears ahead.

Pally/Rogue gains some things (full BAB, max skills, good Ref & Fort-save) but SA is relatively useless and beyond skills before teens, Rogue isn't providing you with all that much unless you go for a Dex/Con/Cha build (which, granted, is probably what I'd do).

Biggest problem, see below:


According to the PHB, sneak attack isn't restricted by armour. Granted, you wont get as much use out of it since it's not full on stealth, but it would still have it's time to shine.

Paladin's Code kinda kicks Sneak Attack in the nuts tho. Overall, the single thing I think making this somewhat unviable is the blasted Code. Can't use any of Rogue's trademark tricks other than Use Magic Device efficiently 'cause of that. As such, we're definitely talking a Paladin with broad skill base more than any manner of Rogue. Which is just really weak for Gestalt since you only have one glorified class rather than two classes.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Paladin's Code kinda kicks Sneak Attack in the nuts tho.
Last time I checked, "stabbing a vital area" isn't dishonourable. If it was, then paladins would be limited to attacking limbs only, and unless you're fighting Necromorphs, that's not a good method of attack. Sneak attack, according to the fluff, just strikes vital areas more often and with greater force than a standard attack. With a normal attack, you're gonna aim for the chest, a sneak attack aims for the lungs.



Overall, the single thing I think making this somewhat unviable is the blasted Code. Can't use any of Rogue's trademark tricks other than Use Magic Device efficiently 'cause of that.

Wait, there are other classes that can disable magical traps and locate traps with a DC of 20 or higher?

Not getting flanked goes against the paladin's code?

And all those bonus feats that can be taken in place of special abilities aren't gonna do squat for the paladin side?


As such, we're definitely talking a Paladin with broad skill base more than any manner of Rogue. Which is just really weak for Gestalt since you only have one glorified class rather than two classes.

As I've mentioned, the rouge side to this gestalt DOES give quite a lot to the paladin side.

[kardar233]

Play a Rogue/Paladin of Slaughter. Sneak attack people and then scare the living daylights (and the living) out of them.

For this I love the Ghost-Faced Killer class from CA. Momentary invisibility for sneak attacks? Nice. A Will save-or-die based on CHA and class level on a target and an AoE Panic with DC based on your Power Attack damage bonus? Yes please, I'll take three.

I mean, that's a damn good way to run a Fear-based character. Just with that one ability and Leap Attack you can panic most people in a 30ft radius on a DC 50+CHA mod+class level save.

If you can nab a reverse-Serenity to get more CHA-SAD, you can maybe add Bardadin too.

[Serpentine]

Hmm, Rouge/Paladin sounds like a good entry into the Sacred Prostitute from BoEF, if you ask me.Would the Paladin's Smite mesh well with the Rouge's Spank Attack?

[Eldariel]

Last time I checked, "stabbing a vital area" isn't dishonourable. If it was, then paladins would be limited to attacking limbs only, and unless you're fighting Necromorphs, that's not a good method of attack. Sneak attack, according to the fluff, just strikes vital areas more often and with greater force than a standard attack. With a normal attack, you're gonna aim for the chest, a sneak attack aims for the lungs.

It's more the "stabbing a guy when he's unable to efficiently defend himself"-part that's dishonorable. Which, incidentally, is a requirement for Sneak Attack; you have to have the opponent in a position where he's unable to properly defend himself. Best option for a straight Pally would probably be Combat Rogue anyways since you prolly want to two-hand regardless. Extra Fighter feats are nice for that.

But yeah, variant Paladins would work here. Paladin of Slaughter, for instance. Either way, Trapfinding is just a part of the skill kit. It should never have been a class feature in the first place. Not getting flanked is quite minor. It's nice to have but nothing to invest 4+ levels into. Special Abilities are nice; the problem is the levels before then (tho for crying out loud, take the special abilities, not feats). But yes, it would work. No, it would not be strong for a Gestalt but it'd obviously be stronger than Paladin.


And bloody hell man, it's Rogue. Rouge is bloody red.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's perfectly fine for a Paladin to use Sneak Attack, just look at the Devoted Inquisitor feat in Complete Adventurer.

Get the Spell Reflection ACF in Complete Mage instead of Evasion if you're going to use heavy armor.

Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) is considerably better than standard Rogue. You get Diplomacy via Paladin, and you can trade Handle Animal to get Gather Information back (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) since you'll still have Handle Animal on your other class list.

Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) would actually be extremely useful for making a mounted charger build, or maybe a chain tripper even.

Definitely get max UMD, and I'd go for mostly social skills along with spot/listen/search. You can actually afford to have a low/neutral Int score and you'll still get tons of skill points every level.

This could actually make an extremely viable anti-spellcaster inquisitor type character. Come to think of it, for the cost of a one-level dip on the Rogue side (probably at level 2 or 3) and two feats (but get two bonus feats), you can be a counterspelling machine: Dip a level of Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion, the Inquisition and probably Time domains, and Turn Undead, and pick up Practiced Spellcaster and Divine Defiance (FC2). At Paladin 4 get the Divine Counterspell ACF in CM, and be sure to have 5 ranks in Kn: Arcana (make it always a class skill via Knowledge Devotion). When someone casts a spell you can spend a turn attempt to counter it as an immediate action, and use Divine Counterspell without identifying the spell by making a dispel check at 1d20 + Paladin level + 3 (Level -3, +2, +4). You can only use it 1+Cha mod times per day, but it's still totally worth it. Be sure to get at least one rank in every knowledge skill that identifies at type of creature and the Collector of Stories skill trick in CS for use with Knowledge Devotion.

[Fax Celestis]

It's perfectly fine for a Paladin to use Sneak Attack, just look at the Devoted Inquisitor feat in Complete Adventurer.

Yeah. The guy who has trouble with sneak attack is the Knight.

[dspeyer]

It's more the "stabbing a guy when he's unable to efficiently defend himself"-part that's dishonorable. Which, incidentally, is a requirement for Sneak Attack; you have to have the opponent in a position where he's unable to properly defend himself.

In the name of justice, allowing someone to defend himself means letting him tell you why he was justified or how thoroughly he has repented -- not letting him draw a sword and parry. Sparing a guilty man because he's a better fighter than you are is not honorable.

Oh wait, this is turning into one of those discussions. Veering aside...

Talk to your DM about exactly what the paladin code means for your character. Everyone who plays a paladin should do this.

Rogue doesn't strictly synergize with paladin, but it does give you a lot of the options a paladin really ought to have for navigating ambiguity. Like talking people down from a fight. Or knocking someone out, tying him up, and handing him over to the courts for reasonable sentencing.

MAD is a problem. Paladins are pretty mad already, and rogues make it worse. There are things you can do to knock out some dependencies.

STR: Since you don't entirely depend on PA for your damage, you could take weapon finesse and drop this. Shadow blade would be a big help too, but it requires either two feats or one level of swordsage as a prerequisite (actually, dipping swordsage on the rogue side would be a good idea by most standards, but if you don't want to...)

DEX: If you stick with str-based combat, you need dex for AC, stealth and use rope. If you're willing to sacrifice evasion, you can wear heavy armor. You don't have to be stealthy (social is probably more your style anyway). And usually the use rope dcs are pretty low.

CON: You only need this if you mind dying. You're a paladin. :-)

INT: This one you mostly don't need (though don't let it go too negative or you lose skills).

WIS: Spells are nice, but you don't need a ton of wis to power them. By the time you have any real use for wis>12, you can easily afford an item of wis. Also powers sense motive, which is important. If you find this falling short, see about a skill-boosting item (they're pretty cheap).

CHA: paladin powers, social skills, umd. Serenity is actually looking like a bad idea.

So you need (str or dex) and cha to be high, and can't let anything become really low. That doesn't sound too bad.

[DeAnno]

Paladins are not Knights, they can SA all they want. This is has a good chassis with d10, two good saves, 8+ skills, and full BaB.

If Prestiging is available, I'd try to work a Wizard or Sorc level in (depending on if you want to focus on Int or Cha) and run full or nearly full casting prestiges up the Rogue side (Daggerspell Mage, Unseen Seer both come to mind). Try to pick up HIPS somehow, though feats in gestalt are probably too valuable to do it through Shadowdancer. Make sure to get Battle Blessing later on so your (fairly useful) Pally spells are all swift actions to cast.


Even doing those things, this is still quite good in an AMF and that's a quality you always want one person in a gestalt party >3 people to have.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The poster wasn't about gestalt. It was about multiclass.

In gestalt, it gets two good saves, d10 hit die, and 8+int skills. There's no way it's not viable.

In non-gestalt, we already resolved that in the thread.

[Heliomance]

Wait, there are other classes that can disable magical traps and locate traps with a DC of 20 or higher?


Yep. Scout, Factotum and Artificer, to name three.

[Fax Celestis]

Also Beguiler, Trapsmith, Combat Trapsmith, Ranger with the right ACF, Barbarian with the right ACF...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Barbarian with the right ACF...

Trapkiller does not work that way!

[dgnslyr]

How does Trapkiller work then, if not like that?

I guess a Rogue/Paladin gestalt could work. Grey Guard seems like a natural PrC to take, because it's intended for paladins who get their hands dirty in the line of duty. It seems like a flavorable enough concept, so good luck with it. Hmm, Ruby Knight Vindicator is also a "paladin who does dirty jobs" PrC, so if you mixed in some crusader levels you could progress in that too.

[tyckspoon]

How does Trapkiller work then, if not like that?


Can't do magical traps or physical traps that lack a smashable trigger mechanism.

Edit: It has trapfinding, so it can locate them, albeit at a penalty, but it can't disable them.

[Human Paragon 3]

To be absolutely clear: if you are being stabbed at all, it's because you were not able to adequately defend yourself.

Rogue / Paladin would work just fine. It won't be very powerful without some decent opt-fu, but you can use all your class features with no issues.

Basically you have a paladin with evasion, full sneak attack progression and 8+skill points/level. Sounds good to me.

[Fax Celestis]

Basically you have a paladin with evasion, full sneak attack progression and 8+skill points/level. Sounds good to me.

Also a pretty solid Cha focus, if you go with UMD. Could probably get away with dropping Str and focusing on Con/Cha.

[kulosle]

every thing can be solved with the right ACF so make it a harmonizing knight. it's basically a paladin that gives up detect evil for inspire courage. turn your cha bonus to (your mostly good) saves to your armor class and you have a SAD cha character. also look at the slippers of battle dancing. i think it works with the harmonizing knight, if not take one level in prestigious divine bard. and cha is the easiest thing to optimize. see my sig for x to y.

[Bovine Colonel]

every thing can be solved with the right ACF so make it a harmonizing knight. it's basically a paladin that gives up detect evil for inspire courage. turn your cha bonus to (your mostly good) saves to your armor class and you have a SAD cha character. also look at the slippers of battle dancing. i think it works with the harmonizing knight, if not take one level in prestigious divine bard. and cha is the easiest thing to optimize. see my sig for x to y.

Uh, I'm not quite sure you've noticed, but rogue =/= bard.

[Gnaeus]

I suppose how use able or effective this gestalt would be is my definition of "viable". This isn't for any specific game, mind you, I am just curious to see if it would be worth a try.


Effectiveness is low.

Any gestalt that lacks 9th level Spells, powers, or maneuvers (or factotum), is not a strong gestalt. Compare rogue//paladin with thematically similar rogue//cleric or swordsage//paladin or beguiler//paladin or factotum//paladin or (ESPECIALLY) factotum//cleric.

Yes, paladin, as a defensive, mostly passive class is better in gestalt than normal. No, that doesn't make it good on the ultimate gestalt power scale. The iconic paladin gestalt is paladin//sorcerer, which is essentially a sorcerer with Cha to saves, good hp, good BaB (for polymorph or touch attacks), good fort save and some self heals. Can a rogue//paladin compete with that? Not remotely.

[deuxhero]

Yeah. The guy who has trouble with sneak attack is the Knight.

Not really. He just doesn't get the standard bonus for flanking. The opponent is still flanked and sneak attackable.

[navar100]

Effectiveness is low.

Any gestalt that lacks 9th level Spells, powers, or maneuvers (or factotum), is not a strong gestalt. Compare rogue//paladin with thematically similar rogue//cleric or swordsage//paladin or beguiler//paladin or factotum//paladin or (ESPECIALLY) factotum//cleric.

Yes, paladin, as a defensive, mostly passive class is better in gestalt than normal. No, that doesn't make it good on the ultimate gestalt power scale. The iconic paladin gestalt is paladin//sorcerer, which is essentially a sorcerer with Cha to saves, good hp, good BaB (for polymorph or touch attacks), good fort save and some self heals. Can a rogue//paladin compete with that? Not remotely.

Or just play Pun Pun.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not paladin/rogue would be the strongest gestalt EVAR! The only relevancy is to whether such a character can function well enough to be fun to play.

Certainly the starting ability scores will be a factor. If he relies on his sneak attack for damage, he won't need as much Strength. Dexterity can then be high. Use Weapon Finesse to hit. Dex and light armor could provide decent enough AC for low levels, just like a normal rogue, allowing the character evasion. Essentially, instead of thinking the character a paladin with rogue abilities he could be a rogue with paladin abilities. Certainly roleplay the paladin part, as it is rather necessary, but mechanically concentrate on rogue. Rogues have gotten along well enough without heavy armor. Now imagine that same rogue with full BAB, d10 HD, Divine Grace, and Lay on Hands. With full BAB, two-weapon fighting is easier to do to go along with the sneak attack. Use Magic Device has been mentioned. Still good. Paladin spell use is gravy. May not have the wisdom for it. It's not a priority but good to have if can get it. (Problem goes away with Pathfinder Rogue/Paladin.) Divine Feats!

[Gnaeus]

Or just play Pun Pun.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not paladin/rogue would be the strongest gestalt EVAR! The only relevancy is to whether such a character can function well enough to be fun to play.

And if the other PCs are building decent gestalts, the answer to that is a resounding NO. A Paladin//rogue gestalt is probably not stronger than a well built tier 3 non-gestalt. If the other players are building gestalts with tier 1-3, you may as well have a high strength score so that you will be good at carrying their luggage.

He didn't ask if it would be fun to play, he asked if it would be effective. It isn't. It lacks good utility (and no, skill points =/ good utility). It lacks a good will save. It lacks anything good for high level play. Yes, if I were trying I could make a worse gestalt, but that one is many miles away from good. Compared with actually strong gestalts it looks like an npc class.

[Tvtyrant]

Rouge does not effect a Paladin's alignment. It does however either increase or decrease their Bluff depending on the situation.

[JaronK]

A stronger version of this would of course be Factotum//Cloistered Cleric/PrC Paladin 2/More Cleric or Cleric PrCs.

Got all your skills, but the synergy is far better. Don't forget the Holy Mount feat so your Paladin Mount is stronger than a normal Paladin.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Yep. Scout, Factotum and Artificer, to name three.


Also Beguiler, Trapsmith, Combat Trapsmith, Ranger with the right ACF, Barbarian with the right ACF...

Psychic Rogue, Lurk with the right ACF...

[navar100]

And if the other PCs are building decent gestalts, the answer to that is a resounding NO. A Paladin//rogue gestalt is probably not stronger than a well built tier 3 non-gestalt. If the other players are building gestalts with tier 1-3, you may as well have a high strength score so that you will be good at carrying their luggage.

He didn't ask if it would be fun to play, he asked if it would be effective. It isn't. It lacks good utility (and no, skill points =/ good utility). It lacks a good will save. It lacks anything good for high level play. Yes, if I were trying I could make a worse gestalt, but that one is many miles away from good. Compared with actually strong gestalts it looks like an npc class.

Skills may not be important in your games, but they are in others. Divine Grace covers Will, but it's not an absolute requirement for every character have the highest saving throws ever all the time anyway. Nothing wrong with optimization, but it's not a tragedy not to be at the most optimal possible given every choice of everything ever published. If you just cannot stand having a mechanical weakness, play Pun Pun. Otherwise, min/max is fine, do what you can, and don't sweat it your character is not Mary Poppins. (Practically perfect in every way.)

The weakness of a paladin/rogue is MAD. It inherits the problem from paladin and adds in Dex. If whatever ability score generation you use makes it not a problem, done. Otherwise, you will have to prioritize. Forgoing evasion for heavy armor is one way. Forgoing the highest AC possible to keep evasion and let your HD, Lay on Hands, and ability to use Cure Wounds wands to keep you going is another way. You still probably need to rely on sneak attack for most of your damage and to develop a strategy when sneak attack is not an option because high strength will be hard to come by. Pathfinder makes this easier because you can sneak attack more creatures (including corporeal undead and constructs) and Smite Evil provides additional continual damage. I agree just using 3E Paladin/Rogue is harder to pull off. Prioritize. Regardless, skill use is not a problem.

[kulosle]

Uh, I'm not quite sure you've noticed, but rogue =/= bard.

i meant turn the paladin side into a bard via harmonizing knight ACF from CoV. then you are basically a bard//rogue but without the casting.

[Gnaeus]

Skills may not be important in your games, but they are in others. Divine Grace covers Will, but it's not an absolute requirement for every character have the highest saving throws ever all the time anyway. Nothing wrong with optimization, but it's not a tragedy not to be at the most optimal possible given every choice of everything ever published. If you just cannot stand having a mechanical weakness, play Pun Pun. Otherwise, min/max is fine, do what you can, and don't sweat it your character is not Mary Poppins. (Practically perfect in every way.).

1. The pun-pun reference is not remotely relevant, and I don't appreciate it.

2. What I did not say: The best gestalts are (Wizard//Warblade, Wizard//Factotum, Druid//Unarmed swordsage, and a small handful of others). You must play them.

Note that even those are not Pun-pun. Pun-pun is a theoretical exercise. The builds I named and others only slightly below them are perfectly playable builds in real games. I would not be remotely ashamed to play any of them in a game.

What I did say: Paladin//Rogue is weak for a gestalt. If other people are playing actual gestalts with strong classes, your character will be outclassed to the point of uselessness. Not even the tier 1 gestalts I listed above. Something like a Crusader//beguiler is not a gestalt powerhouse. But it blows the Paladin//rogue out of the water in a really brutal way, despite being essentially the same concept.

3. A gestalt game is likely to assume a higher power level than a normal 3.5 game. Most characters will have high hp, good fort and will saves, AND something useful to do with their actions. A character who cannot compete in their game is a liability.