Non-sorcerer spells

[prufock]

So, sorcerers can - through study - learn spells that are not on the sorc/wiz spell list. While many people are aware of this, I haven't really seen it used very often. I guess this is because the sorc/wiz list is so good, and because they have limited spells known. Questions:

1) Are there any rules to the "study" necessary, or do they just suddenly know the spell at the appropriate level? I've never seen rules for this, I assume it's just "DM permission" as it says in the Magic Overview.

2) What are some of your favourite non-sorc spells to take as a sorcerer? Give levels and sources if it isn't too much trouble.

Personally I can think of some good ones from the bard list that would work well for a sorcerer.
Glibness (Bard 3, PHB): +30 to bluff, I'll take it!
Snowsong (Bard 6, Frost): +4 morale bonus to charisma, +4 insight to AC, fast healing 1, cold resistance 15, +1d6 cold damage. I like.
Inner Beauty (Bard 4, FC1): +4 sacred bonus to charisma. I guess I like stacking charisma bonuses.
Nixie's Grace (Bard 6, SC): +8 enhancement to cha, and a dex and wis boost to boot!
Sirine's Grace (Bard 4, SC): +4 enhancement to cha, but the real beauty of this is that it grants charisma to AC as deflection.

[Yora]

1) Are there any rules to the "study" necessary, or do they just suddenly know the spell at the appropriate level? I've never seen rules for this, I assume it's just "DM permission" as it says in the Magic Overview.

No. Which is the reason why it is almost never done.
It really only says that the DM could add spells to the sorcerer spell list.

[prufock]

Specifically, for those interested, the text is "With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

[legomaster00156]

That was actually meant to indicate researched spells, like a Wizard. You know, something like "Vicril's Greater Fireball". Granted, you could probably simply "create" a spell that duplicates the effect of a spell on a different list.

[chadmeister]

I think that is referring to new spells designed by the DM or players.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So, sorcerers can - through study - learn spells that are not on the sorc/wiz spell list.

NOPE!



These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

It only implies that you get to learn core spells automatically, and that unusual non-core spells still from the sorcerer/wizard spell list require additional effort to learn. You're better off just ignoring this rule, or you'll end up making the game even harder on yourself.

"These new spells can be common PHB spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells from a non-core source that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

[Psyren]

No matter how you read it, they are subject to DM approval. TO doesn't rely on the DM because that takes the challenge out of it - after all, your DM can create anything he wants, and therefore RAW is not necessary.

[KillianHawkeye]

NOPE!

It only implies that you get to learn core spells automatically, and that unusual non-core spells still from the sorcerer/wizard spell list require additional effort to learn. You're better off just ignoring this rule, or you'll end up making the game even harder on yourself.

"These new spells can be common PHB spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells from a non-core source that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

I highly doubt that the intent of that line is to limit access to spells in books which haven't yet been published. Especially when those spells are specifically put onto the Sor/Wiz spell list.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I highly doubt that the intent of that line is to limit access to spells in books which haven't yet been published. Especially when those spells are specifically put onto the Sor/Wiz spell list.

It's intended to give the DM the option of limiting them. In any case, it's definitely not intended to imply that you can learn spells that don't appear on the sorcerer/wizard spell list at all.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's intended to give the DM the option of limiting them. In any case, it's definitely not intended to imply that you can learn spells that don't appear on the sorcerer/wizard spell list at all.

I'd like to know where you're getting this information.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd like to know where you're getting this information.

I'll post it again:


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list on page 192 in the PHB, or unusual spells which he would need to gain some understanding of by study. Common spells that he automatically gains access to are only those found on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in the PHB, the unusual spells to which it is referring would be any sorcerer/wizard spell not found in the PHB, which it says he would have to do some studying and research to learn.

[legomaster00156]

I'll post it again:



Common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list on page 192 in the PHB, or unusual spells which he would need to gain some understanding of by study. Common spells that he automatically gains access to are only those found on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in the PHB, the unusual spells to which it is referring would be any sorcerer/wizard spell not found in the PHB, which it says he would have to do some studying and research to learn.

Or, at least, that's the way your particular group interprets it.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm asking where you got your information about the intent that you are applying to that passage. YOU are choosing to read that reference to page 192 as exclusive limitation, whereas I see it as being a helpful reminder.

I'll repeat myself:

I highly doubt that the intent of that line is to limit access to spells in books which haven't yet been published. Especially when those spells are specifically put onto the Sor/Wiz spell list.

If later books add something to the Sorcerer's spell list, those become options for him (if those books are allowed by the DM).


A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.


The following spells supplement those found in Chapter 11 of the Player's Handbook.

The following section presents new spells for assassins, bards, clerics, druids, rangers, sorcerers, and wizards.

The following spells supplement those found in Chapter 11 of the Player's Handbook.
I'm sure that I could keep going with these. Each book with new Sorcerer/Wizard spells is adding those spells directly to the Sorcerer's spell list. That shouldn't require special permission for the Sorcerer if you give the new spells to the other classes without question.

[prufock]

It only implies that you get to learn core spells automatically, and that unusual non-core spells still from the sorcerer/wizard spell list require additional effort to learn.

That's just wrong.

First clause: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192)"
No argument here, the spells can be chosen from the sorc/wiz list in the PHB.

Second clause: "they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."
The second clause is a complete statement in itself, and doesn't reference or rely on the sorc/wiz spell list at all. You can choose unusual spells that you've gained understanding of by study. That's the whole clause.

Lawyered.
(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer).

[Hirax]

If sorcerers were meant to be able to learn any spell, they simply wouldn't have a spell list.

[Thurbane]

If sorcerers were meant to be able to learn any spell, they simply wouldn't have a spell list.
Indeed - they'd play a lot more like the Generic Spellcaster class in UA.

[prufock]

If sorcerers were meant to be able to learn any spell, they simply wouldn't have a spell list.

After a bit more research, the truth of the matter is that ANY spellcaster can learn spells from any list, with research. It's under the DMG under researching original spells. I thought it only really applied to wizards, but it seems the same researching rules are used for all classes that want to get different spells.

That is: 1 week per level of the spell, 1000 gp per week of research.

Given that, I still think a lot of the bard spells are great for sorcerers.