Hide, Flat Footed and Percision Dmg?

[Bloodgruve]

I am trying to understand the mechanics on this. I am playing a Dark Creature templated Whisper Gnome Factotum8/Swordsage1...

I am trying to create Flat Footed condition for Iaijutsu Focus using Hide/Hide in Plain Sight with Gnomish Quickrazors (standard IF build).

First off my tactic for achieving a hidden state is to make a 5' step and hide during the movement. Can I do this? If not, is there a way to HiPS and still gain a full attack?

Second, if I succeed the hide check does the IF dmg apply to all attacks against the 'target' enemy or is it just the first?

Third, I read somewhere that you can take a -20 on Hide to remain hidden during an attack. Would this check be made before the attack or during the attack?

Forth, If an enemy is blinded am I 'automatically' hidden form it with a hide check?

TYVM
Blood~

*Lastly, I have seen that you can ready Marbles to dispense as a free action somehow as a readied weapon or something. Where can I find more info on this?

[Bakkan]

I can't answer all your questions, but I'll take a stab at some of them.

First, the rules on Hide are for me, somewhat ambiguous. Just to give you my opinion, I would not allow a player to make a hide check as part of a 5' step because the other usages of hide (generally) require at least a move action.

That said, an excellent tactic to use to "hack" Hide in Plain Sight is to take a level of Warlock and get the Darkness invocation at will, the take the Blend into Shadows feat from Drow of the Underdark, which allows you to make a hide check as a swift action by spending one of you (infinite) uses of Darkness as long as you are within 10 feet of an area of magical darkness. This allows you to hide and make a full attack.

Second, I believe that once you have made an attack you are no longer considered hidden (unless you take a move action to hide as per sniping, but that defeats the purpose of getting a full attack off) so IF would only apply to the first attack.

Third, the Hide skill description says "If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." So it looks like you make that check after your attack. Though I'm interested in why that matters for your character?

Fourth, No. If an enemy is blinded you are considered Invisible to it, but that does not automatically make you hidden. However, you will get a +20 or +40 bonus on your Hide check against him (depending on whether or not you're moving).

[tyckspoon]

First off- being 'visually undetectable' (ie, Hidden against a foe who cannot Spot you or invisible against somebody who can't detect such) doesn't make your targets Flat-footed. It denies them Dexterity bonus against your attacks; that is sufficient to activate Sneak Attack but not Iajutsu Focus. For Iajutsu Focus, you need to find things that specifically say 'target is Flat-footed'; I think there's a few skill tricks that'll do it, the Blurstrike weapon property does it a few times/day, and of course the general standby is Grease/marbles to force enemies without Balance ranks (which is.. pretty much everything) to make Balance checks. And winning initiative and hitting them while they're flatfooted normally, of course (Hiding helps with this in that you can more reliably get a surprise round, and Factotums are usually pretty good at init checks.)

Re: Hiding while attacking: according to Curmudgeon (and I have no reason to believe he's wrong about this one, so deferring to subject matter expert) you can normally make a Hide check as part of almost any other action so long as you meet the requirements to Hide (having concealment and being unobserved, or whenever the heck you feel like if your version of Hide In Plain Sight allows.) The -20 to the check comes from this line in the Hide skill:

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. So it's difficult but possible to hide while making an attack. Each individual attack will require a new Hide check and a new chance for your opponent to Spot you before you make the next attack.



*Lastly, I have seen that you can ready Marbles to dispense as a free action somehow as a readied weapon or something. Where can I find more info on this?

Basically you have a twisted cloth or loosely tied bag, something that spills open easily, full of marbles and already in your hand. When you need to use them you just drop it (free action) and the marbles spill out into the space(s) around you.

[Bakkan]

First off- being 'visually undetectable' (ie, Hidden against a foe who cannot Spot you or invisible against somebody who can't detect such) doesn't make your targets Flat-footed. It denies them Dexterity bonus against your attacks; that is sufficient to activate Sneak Attack but not Iajutsu Focus.

Actually the Rules Compendium addressed this. From page 92, second column, 3rd paragraph:


If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible.

[tyckspoon]

Actually the Rules Compendium addressed this. From page 92, second column, 3rd paragraph:

... sweet Thor, just when I thought I'd found all the little important changes in the RC. >.< Forget it. I'm just going to ignore that bloody book from now on.

[Bloodgruve]

Thank you for the input.

As stated in SRD

Hide
Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

There is no mention in the action section pertaining to melee attacks, although it is stated as -20 earlier in the description. So hiding while attacking at -20?

TY
Blood

[kulosle]

it was my understanding, or at least this is how my group house ruled it. that hiding while making an attack doesn't take an action, and it doesn't require multiple hide checks. similar to running while hiding doesn't require you to make a new hide check each round. it may be that my group just ruled it this way to save on rolling. i don't recall at the moment. so if you took the -20 to hide, you are able to attack while hidden. and each attack gets the iaijustsu focus. each attack you make should let target make a new spot check but you only roll once.

[Bloodgruve]

We decided to make an initial hide check on a movement. This would apply to the first attack in the round. All other attacks were spotted versus -20 hide. This seemed to work well.

Thanks,
Blood~

[Darrin]

Basically you have a twisted cloth or loosely tied bag, something that spills open easily, full of marbles and already in your hand. When you need to use them you just drop it (free action) and the marbles spill out into the space(s) around you.

I'm not sure that would work... or more likely, most DMs will require some kind of action to "open" the bag, otherwise you drop a bag of marbles, and the marbles stay in the bag. The description in A&EG mentions they are an alternative to caltrops, and would most likely be deployed in the same way. But the PHB doesn't actually specify what action it takes to spread caltrops (you have to dig it out of a really obscure 3.0 book for that... Deep Horizon says it's a standard action to spread them).

The easiest way to spread marbles is probably with an unseen servant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c), familiar, animal companion, wild cohort, or trained animal (something with hands, such as a monkey). For an unseen servant or trained animal, that's probably a move action to direct it. For a familiar, animal companion, or wild cohort, it's a free action or no-action.

Some other methods:

Put the marbles in a glass jar, throw the jar at a hex or drop it from a height so the jar breaks, creating marbles *and* sharp glass (improvised caltrops!).

Or use shapesand. Throw the jug (breaks), or sprinkle it on the ground beforehand. The description doesn't say what action it takes, but the Wisdom check to change chaos flasks is a free action.

If you're not set on marbles, maybe do something with grease/ice slick with spell storing shurikens or Glyph Seals.