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Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 04:18 PM
Okay, so, I want to see how good or bad this power is. Gimme your thoughts:


16th Level Mystery: You gain the ability to summon creatures inside other creatures. When casting a [Summoning] or [Calling] spell that summons a single creature, you may choose to have the summoned creature attempt to appear in an occupied space. The spell does 2d6 damage per spell level to the target as the summoned creature attempts to materialize within the other creature. If the damage does not kill the targeted creature, the summoning spell fails. If it kills the creature, the summoned creature bursts forth from the targeted creature's body. The summoned creature is affected as if by a rage spell and gains an additional +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Keegan__D
2011-11-12, 04:31 PM
Pump your Int, caster level, Augment Summoning, Summoning Specialist (UA), summon utility creatures that get pumped a ****-ton

FearlessGnome
2011-11-12, 04:33 PM
What about summoning really small creatures? Depending on the target and the summonee, might it not be summoned into the belly of its target (As if Swallowed Whole)? It would call for a lot of judgment calls by the DM, but we're already in homebrew territory, so...

Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 04:33 PM
Pump your Int, caster level, Augment Summoning, Summoning Specialist (UA), summon utility creatures that get pumped a ****-ton

Right, but how does that affect this ability at all? I'm already expecting players who have this to be summoning focused. The ability does, at most, 18d6 damage and will likely only be usable 6-10 times a day. The damage is based off of spell level, not caster level.

Keegan__D
2011-11-12, 04:35 PM
Right, but how does that affect this ability at all? I'm already expecting players who have this to be summoning focused. The ability does, at most, 18d6 damage and will likely only be usable 6-10 times a day. The damage is based off of spell level, not caster level.

ohh, missed that last bit. There is the fact that summoning isn't really underpowered to begin with, and that this is just cheese.

Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 04:36 PM
What about summoning really small creatures? Depending on the target and the summonee, might it not be summoned into the belly of its target (As if Swallowed Whole)? It would call for a lot of judgment calls by the DM, but we're already in homebrew territory, so...

Doesn't matter how big. In the case of small summon, big target, I would imagine it would be something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JehjqlzXwIQ) (warning, gore).

tyckspoon
2011-11-12, 04:44 PM
How long does the Rage buff + extra Augment Summon-like boost last? Duration of summoning, or is it exactly as if the summoner had cast Rage on the summon (so default 1 round/level)? If it's a long duration, the biggest cheese I could see is using it to amp up Called bodyguards; put a sacrificial chicken in the middle of your Circle of Protection and Planar Bind a demon to explode it with the intent of offering it the standard bodyguard "follow me around and kill what I tell you to for X weeks and you'll get to experience the Prime Material and slaughter stuff" deal. It accepts, you get your Nalfeshnee or whatever with a hefty Str/Con buff.

If it's short-term, I think it's probably in the cool but not majorly exploitable range and should mostly be fine.

Tvtyrant
2011-11-12, 04:57 PM
Using the reserve summon feat you can use this to add +8 strength to a high level summon for free. Okay, so 1 feat and a use of the class ability, but still. Every summon you make can be made out of a reserve summon and gain tons of stat bonuses.

Psyren
2011-11-12, 04:59 PM
Is there SR or a saving throw? Su? Ex?

Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 05:07 PM
How long does the Rage buff + extra Augment Summon-like boost last? Duration of summoning, or is it exactly as if the summoner had cast Rage on the summon (so default 1 round/level)? If it's a long duration, the biggest cheese I could see is using it to amp up Called bodyguards; put a sacrificial chicken in the middle of your Circle of Protection and Planar Bind a demon to explode it with the intent of offering it the standard bodyguard "follow me around and kill what I tell you to for X weeks and you'll get to experience the Prime Material and slaughter stuff" deal. It accepts, you get your Nalfeshnee or whatever with a hefty Str/Con buff.

If it's short-term, I think it's probably in the cool but not majorly exploitable range and should mostly be fine.Duration of the summon, though I could knock them both down to rounds/level. I could put in a minimum-HD-clause, but that seems nonsensical from an actual use perspective.


Is there SR or a saving throw? Su? Ex?

No SR, no save, SU. Might add a Fort save, not sure.

Godskook
2011-11-12, 05:15 PM
1.Since this only works against a foe that's almost already dead anyway(d6 damage per HD tends to not be that great at high levels, when con boosters are so readily available, even the foot soldiers can afford them), the spell isn't going to come into play until later in a fight, when the battle's already being won or is about to be lost. In either case, its not going to be game-breaking, cause the fight's already mostly over.

2.Assuming that there's meta-mystery effects available, what happens when the relevant mystery has those effects? Mostly things like Maximize and Empower. A straight d6/HD effect isn't nearly as dangerous as one that's maximized, empowered, and twinned.

Gotterdammerung
2011-11-12, 05:26 PM
Well the obvious loophole I see is the ole rat trick.


Keep a bunch of tiny animals around and your summoned hezrou can auto-burst out of them in a rage.


Bunnies, tiny snakes, rats, ect.

They aren't hard to keep around. I don't know the rest of your build but there are tons of options for corralling critters so you can exploit this trick at a moments notice.

Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 05:32 PM
1.Since this only works against a foe that's almost already dead anyway(d6 damage per HD tends to not be that great at high levels, when con boosters are so readily available, even the foot soldiers can afford them), the spell isn't going to come into play until later in a fight, when the battle's already being won or is about to be lost. In either case, its not going to be game-breaking, cause the fight's already mostly over. I kept the damage where it was because I didn't want to basically give the class an at-will chestburster for 20d6.


2.Assuming that there's meta-mystery effects available, what happens when the relevant mystery has those effects? Mostly things like Maximize and Empower. A straight d6/HD effect isn't nearly as dangerous as one that's maximized, empowered, and twinned.There aren't, but the class does get some other features focused on making their summons better.


Well the obvious loophole I see is the ole rat trick.

Yeah. I'll have to put in some minimum HD line.

EDIT: NEWTEXT

16th Level Mystery: You gain the ability to summon creatures inside other creatures. When casting a [Summoning] or [Calling] spell that summons a single creature, you may choose to have the summoned creature attempt to appear in an occupied space. The spell does 2d6 damage per spell level to the target as the summoned creature attempts to materialize within the other creature. If the damage does not kill the targeted creature, the summoning spell fails. If it kills the creature, the summoned creature bursts forth from the targeted creature's body. The summoned creature is affected as if by a rage spell and gains an additional +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution: both these effects last for one round per caster level. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, and you may not use this ability on a creature with less than half the Hit Dice than the creature you summon.

Gotterdammerung
2011-11-12, 05:35 PM
Another exploit would be red wizard of thay using a greater circle to turn a summoning spell into a heightened 20th lvl summoning spell. Which will do 40d6 damage through this ability.

Mulletmanalive
2011-11-12, 05:59 PM
Not so much breaking as simply hillarious; Craft Contigency this thing into a mounted combat specialist melee character and have a cleric cast Pact of Return on him.

He fights, dies, explodes into a giant spider and then gets rezzed on it's back to continue his rampage, now mounted on a giant spider...

I CAN come up with an insanely obscure path through Legends and Lairs stuff that allows you to summon stuff inside your high explosive elemental familiar for the boosty, only to have the creature turn out to be a shadow duplicate...not that that's an issue for most folks :smallbiggrin:

Also, how come you can't use this on multiple targets by spending multiple uses of the ability? It seems reasonable, if not underpowered, to be able to summon 4 wolves for 2d6 damage each into 4 different targets [massively underpowered, frankly]

Godskook
2011-11-12, 06:29 PM
Well the obvious loophole I see is the ole rat trick.

That's not a loophole. The ability to summon the creatures was already available, all the above mystery does is provide damage when summoning. Hitting a neutral party with the damage makes the damage pointless. All you're getting then is kinda a cool cinematic, which is *DEFINITELY* not gamebreaking.

Glimbur
2011-11-12, 06:37 PM
That's not a loophole. The ability to summon the creatures was already available, all the above mystery does is provide damage when summoning. Hitting a neutral party with the damage makes the damage pointless. All you're getting then is kinda a cool cinematic, which is *DEFINITELY* not gamebreaking.

It does throw a mostly free Rage effect on your summons, which is probably worth the trouble of carrying a bag of rats if you can use them without hurting your action economy.

With the target restriction, you're choosing between certain damage and maybe a buffed summon or a regular summon. Use of this will depend on how accurately the characters can judge remaining hit points of foes. It does make summoning stronger, but I wouldn't be scared to include it, especially at level 16.

Gotterdammerung
2011-11-12, 06:39 PM
That's not a loophole. The ability to summon the creatures was already available, all the above mystery does is provide damage when summoning. Hitting a neutral party with the damage makes the damage pointless. All you're getting then is kinda a cool cinematic, which is *DEFINITELY* not gamebreaking.

um... was referring to the free +8 str and con. As in bursting your summons through neutral rats is a good guarantee that the target dies, and therefore your summon gets the +8 str and con from the rage with an extra +4 bonus.

She has changed it to only work on things half the hit die of the creature your summoning or higher. (or sumthin like that) So it wouldn't work anymore.


Personally, I don't think it needed the change.

The person has to put some sort of character resources towards being able to keep rats around all the time. And suffers the roleplay penalties of being associated with vermin.

If there willing to go through all that trouble to exploit it, then let em.

Wings of Peace
2011-11-12, 07:30 PM
The spell does 2d6 damage per spell level to the target as the summoned [B]creature[b] attempts to materialize within the other creature.

I cast summon swarm for >2000d6 damage.

Psyren
2011-11-12, 07:52 PM
I cast summon swarm for >2000d6 damage.

It does damage/spell level, not damage/creature.

It's unclear if this would work with a swarm anyway, as that would depend on whether you count a swarm as one creature or not.

Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 08:01 PM
Nope, wouldn't.


16th Level Mystery: You gain the ability to summon creatures inside other creatures. When casting a [Summoning] or [Calling] spell that summons a single creature, you may choose to have the summoned creature attempt to appear in an occupied space. The spell does 2d6 damage per spell level to the target as the summoned creature attempts to materialize within the other creature. If the damage does not kill the targeted creature, the summoning spell fails. If it kills the creature, the summoned creature bursts forth from the targeted creature's body. The summoned creature is affected as if by a rage spell and gains an additional +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution: both these effects last for one round per caster level. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, and you may not use this ability on a creature with less than half the Hit Dice than the creature you summon.

Gotterdammerung
2011-11-12, 08:10 PM
Nope, wouldn't.

swarms are treated as a single creature so you could do it unless the DM logic nerfed it.

BUT!!!!

since they are counted as a SINGLE creature by the rules,

they would still only do 2d6 per spell level.

NOT 2d6 per spell level/bug.

Godskook
2011-11-12, 08:56 PM
um... was referring to the free +8 str and con. As in bursting your summons through neutral rats is a good guarantee that the target dies, and therefore your summon gets the +8 str and con from the rage with an extra +4 bonus.

Its Rage as the spell, so you're only getting a total +6 from the full combo, which is just slightly better than Augment Summoning. And then there's the fact that this is sucking up class feature space. Not that big of a deal, honestly.

Novawurmson
2011-11-12, 09:22 PM
Summoner "Summon Monster" ability?

motionmatrix
2011-11-12, 09:36 PM
The rage is not that big a deal. A summoner having an ability that makes his summons better when they enter is appropriately flavored. And I write this assuming it stacks with Augment Summoning.

As for danger of abusing long term summon spells, don't forget that the RAW says they come in raging, which means they are probably not in any condition to make any contracts and deals with anyone.

This effectively lets you turn a summon spell into a single target damage spell. If the target is low enough in hp, then it continues to be a summon with a buff. Besides cool imagery, there is nothing here that is earth shattering. Especially by level 16.

This is not broken. It's cool ^,^

Istari
2011-11-12, 10:10 PM
16th Level Mystery: You gain the ability to summon creatures inside other creatures. When casting a [Summoning] or [Calling] spell that summons a single creature, you may choose to have the summoned creature attempt to appear in an occupied space. The spell does 2d6 damage per spell level to the target as the summoned creature attempts to materialize within the other creature. If the damage does not kill the targeted creature, the summoning spell fails. If it kills the creature, the summoned creature bursts forth from the targeted creature's body. The summoned creature is affected as if by a rage spell and gains an additional +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution: both these effects last for one round per caster level. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, and you may not use this ability on a creature with less than half the Hit Dice than the creature you summon.

Maybe change the HD clause to only apply for the rage boost. Currently it sounds like the entire ability is unusable if the creature is too weak, which may be your intention, but it limits some of its usability.

deuxhero
2011-11-12, 10:16 PM
17th level prevents a lot of class abilities from comboing with it.

Uh, for gestalted with PF summoner (or for them) I can see call Elidooning your beast into a summoner monster.

Fax Celestis
2011-11-12, 11:03 PM
Maybe change the HD clause to only apply for the rage boost. Currently it sounds like the entire ability is unusable if the creature is too weak, which may be your intention, but it limits some of its usability.

Good idea.

ShiningStarling
2011-11-12, 11:15 PM
I like the ability, but may I point out that turning the universe into your pokemon already is one of the most powerful aspects of the game, and thus most things that add to it simply pour on the cheese? The thing to then suggest is to require a combo with necromancy to dumb it down a bit, you know because of the blood and killing and stuff, but you can't really "dumb it down" with another class that turns other parts of the universe into pokemon.

So yeah, cool ability, but really unecessary, because summoning is one of those things that doesn't need help.

Chambers
2011-11-13, 01:45 PM
I'd like either a save or some kind of attack roll before the summons takes effect. As it is now, even if the damage doesn't kill them you still get auto-damage, no save, no SR, no attack roll.

Maybe add a Fort save and if they fail the save then they take the damage and the alien attempts to burst from their chest. If they make their save then the spell is wasted.

Morph Bark
2011-11-13, 01:57 PM
I am kind of wondering how this would logically interact with a creature with the Swallow Whole ability. If the summoned creature tries to manifest itself inside the creature with Swallow Whole, couldn't the summoning simply automatically succeed without damage, but with the creature appearing inside, as if it had already been swallowed?

Fax Celestis
2011-11-13, 07:29 PM
I am kind of wondering how this would logically interact with a creature with the Swallow Whole ability. If the summoned creature tries to manifest itself inside the creature with Swallow Whole, couldn't the summoning simply automatically succeed without damage, but with the creature appearing inside, as if it had already been swallowed?

I dunno if I want to go into that level of detail.

I think I'm going to add a Fortitude save for half damage but increase the damage to 1d6/CL, capped at 20.

radmelon
2011-11-13, 10:50 PM
I think that this ability should work with summoning swarms, if only for how freakin' cool that would look. Also horrifying. :smallamused: