Looking for Hints/Tips (Pathfinder RPG)

[Lord of Shadows]

Our group has played through a campaign and we have one fight left, the "final battle." We are up against what has been described as a "Fallen" Celestial (we are all 23rd level). In the boss fights leading up to this we have encountered the following:

Round 1) Quickened Mage's Disjunction, Maximized Wail of the Banshee, Delayed Blast Fireball (Rinse and Repeat)

We have also encountered Necromantic spells that can penetrate Death Ward with ease, characters with low Will saves have been dominated and turned on the party, and other nastyness.

We have tried to Buff before some fights, only to have everything obliterated by Disjunction. We have tried to go in with Anti-magic Field as a ward against Disjunction only to get swarmed by beefy minions who hit hard because all our armor has lost its bonuses. Both sides have a few items that continue to function inside an Anti-magic Field (artifact/relic type items).

I know it may sound like the DM has designed this as a "no-win" scenario, but we have prevailed more often than not, usually by sheer determination. This fight may be different, though. All ideas are welcome, but I am looking in particular for ideas on protection against necromantic spells (stronger or more powerful than Death Ward), and how to handle Disjunction.

We will be starting outside the Opponent's throne room, probably with limited time to buff ahead of time.

Thanks!

[Arbane]

Send in illusions/simulacra/goblins with paper bags over their heads first. If the Bad Guys fail to waste a disjunction on them, ask the DM politely _why_.

Spread out. If the casters have teleport or passwall, there's NO reason you all have to go in through the door at once.

I suppose counterspelling the Disjunction is out of the question?

[Lord of Shadows]

Sending in "decoys" is something we have not tried yet, and a good idea. Although our opponent will likely be very good at detecting whom is actually coming through the door. The replacements would have to be very good, like using Twin Form (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/twin-form) or something (we do have an Alchemist among us). Something along the lines of Clones (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/clone) may also create at least a short diversion.

We can try the Teleport or Passwall, but in the past we have run into areas where such travel does not work, and even one area where it resulted in the death of an NPC.

Counterspelling is an option, we would be up against a high 20-something or possibly even low 30's caster level.

All good ideas, thanks!

[Dyllan]

Contingency dimensional door, set for when disjunction is cast to move you out of range.

Do you have access to Disjunction (or can you get it?) If so, you can counterspell with the matching spell, and it auto succeeds (at least, it did in 3.5... did they change that for Pathfinder?).

[Lord of Shadows]

Contingency dimensional door, set for when disjunction is cast to move you out of range.

Do you have access to Disjunction (or can you get it?) If so, you can counterspell with the matching spell, and it auto succeeds (at least, it did in 3.5... did they change that for Pathfinder?).

Yes, Disjunction would counter itself. Unfortunately the player who has the arcane caster gave up a few weeks ago due to a disagreement with the DM. We have a couple of divine casters, and we have access to several Arcane caster NPC's who are slightly lower level than where we are at.

The Contingency/Dimension Door option is good, although we have encountered areas where "Conjuration/Teleport" spells do not work. A Contingency may be a good way to start, though.

Thanks!

[Lord of Shadows]

One thing that I hadn't mentioned, but that does give the party some advantages over traditional spell casting, is that we are using a Spell Point system. The Cleric, for example, has a list of spells memorized, but the spells do not disappear when cast. He can keep casting any memorized spell as long as he has spell points.

In the system being used, it costs 17 points to cast a 9th level spell, and at 23rd level he has 276 spell points. The casting cost drops to the next lowest odd number as the spell level goes down (ie, 15 points for 8th level, etc.) So, it is possible to do multiple castings of a spell if needed. This has saved us on more than one occasion.

Other effects can be achieved by pumping more spell points into the casting, such as Metamagic feats, increasing Save DC's, etc. Although it can be tricky, as pumping in more than what is needed can have consequences requiring Fortitude saves.

[jguy]

You could try building some adamantine golems. At level 23 you guys should be able to plane shift to access the amount of materials to build one and have enough gold for it. It is immune to everything that guy is throwing at you. If that is too expensive a could Clockwork golems could help. You can get about 5 for the same price and if they all use their wall of gears ability, it can shred any minion wave the big bad is throwing at you.

Undead also work, especially if you can give them some sort of fire resistance/immunity.

If you have artifacts on you when being hit by disjunction, make sure the DM rolls for destroying them. If they do, then you basically win right there since the God who owns that artifact will no be pleased. That is, unless something has changed between 3.5 and PF

[Lord of Shadows]

Heh heh heh <sigh> It's funny you should mention Golems. We came across a Golem army and its "control center" a few levels back. We defeated the crazy Gnome who had taken it over, and never really played with it. We ended up trading it to a Godling for a favor in one of the last sessions. That was undoubtedly what the DM was referring to when he said, as we "handed over the keys," that we all felt a nagging sense of loss. Ahh, well...

Using Undead might not agree very well with some party members.

Yes, the DM has rolled for the Artifacts/Relics when we have been hit with Disjunction. So far, so good. <knocking on wood>

I wonder if we could interest that Godling in a little alliance...

[Lord of Shadows]

Just a quick note, can anyone think of a response to spells modified with the Thanatopic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/thanatopic-spell-metamagic) feat? It makes Death Ward completely useless.

[jguy]

Spell Turning, Globe(s) of invulnerability, and Spell Immunity pop into mind if he is using it with very specific spells.

A Rod of Absorption can help too with the single target spells.

Might be cheesy, but you might try using Wish or Miracle to get a blanket immunity to those kind of spells, even from Thanatopic spell. Or simply just saying that Thanatopic modified spells work as normal against you so you still have to cast death ward.

[Lord of Shadows]

Spell Turning, Globe(s) of invulnerability, and Spell Immunity are all good ideas. Unfortunately they are all nerfed by Mage's Disjunction. But still good.

Yes, a Rod of Absorption would help, we have not come across one.


Might be cheesy, but you might try using Wish or Miracle to get a blanket immunity to those kind of spells, even from Thanatopic spell. Or simply just saying that Thanatopic modified spells work as normal against you so you still have to cast death ward.

As for cheesy, LOL, this DM is fond of knowing every nook and cranny of the rules (none of us had ever heard of Thanatopic spell before, and the DM had gone out and bought Ultimate Magic without saying anything, we were.... "surprised")

Using Miracle for temp immunity to a Feat might just work. Now, are there ANY other ways around Death Ward?

Thanks!

[Dyllan]

Get yourself made into a vampire (or Lich, or some other undead). That'd make you immune to death effects.

I suppose that MIGHT be a bit drastic.

[jguy]

Is it possible to make a Contingency that counterspells a Mage's Disjunction with another one? If so, that might be your best bet. Or, you could win initiative and cast it first on the enemy.

Also, you really should try to talk to that Godling again for some help. It would be inclined to help I think because of a fallen celestial might seriously piss it off. At least enough for a temporary loan of a Adamantine Golem.

[Lord of Shadows]

Is it possible to make a Contingency that counterspells a Mage's Disjunction with another one? If so, that might be your best bet. Or, you could win initiative and cast it first on the enemy.

I don't think Contingency, as written, will work with Disjunction. Max spell level is 6. But, I am researching other Contingency options.


Also, you really should try to talk to that Godling again for some help. It would be inclined to help I think because of a fallen celestial might seriously piss it off. At least enough for a temporary loan of a Adamantine Golem.

I think we will add that one to the quiver. He just may help indeed, since the Fallen Celestial unleashed a Linnorm on the world that he had once put away for safe keeping.

Thanks!

[Lord of Shadows]

Get yourself made into a vampire (or Lich, or some other undead). That'd make you immune to death effects.

I suppose that MIGHT be a bit drastic.

Yea, that's a little too drastic... both are Evil in Pathfinder. Know of any Good or Neutral things that are immune (or even resistant) to death effects? Can we get ourselves made into Golems?

[jguy]

Um, I don't know if things have changed much but there is an updated version of the Psionic Handbook on the PFSRD. I know in 3.5 there was a way to switch minds with monsters and such, temporarily and permanently. Perhaps you could find a high level psion and get him to switch minds your characters minds with golems. Intelligent ones though....

[Lord of Shadows]

Yea, I found Mind Switch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/mind-switch) on the d20pfsrd. There has been no mention over the course of the campaign on whether Psionics are part of the campaign. I'll have to investigate further.

Thanks!

[Lord of Shadows]

What would Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-disjunction) do to a Construct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Construct)?

Several Golems are "immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance," (Adamantine and Mithral) but Disjunction does not allow SR. It does allow a Will save.

[Waker]

Constructs are unaffected by Disjunction as they are creatures, not magic spells or items. The will save is for items.

[jguy]

Disjunction would have no affect on Constructs or Undead. They may be magically created but have a perpetual source of magic in them that cannot be turned off once created.

[Lord of Shadows]

Constructs are unaffected by Disjunction as they are creatures, not magic spells or items. The will save is for items.

Disjunction would have no affect on Constructs or Undead. They may be magically created but have a perpetual source of magic in them that cannot be turned off once created.
Thanks, I found this out after doing some more research. So becoming a Construct or Undead might nerf some of the opponent's abilities. Undead is probably not an option (except for the party Alchemist.. PF Alchemists, BTW, are quite good at what they do). Construct, maybe....

Thanks!

[Lord of Shadows]

Regarding the Pathfinder spell Instant Summons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-summons), what effect would Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-disjunction) have on the gem that you crush for the summoned item? It is a "magic item"? Or is it a spell component?

[agentnone]

Regarding the Pathfinder spell Instant Summons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-summons), what effect would Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-disjunction) have on the gem that you crush for the summoned item? It is a "magic item"? Or is it a spell component?

I can't access the spell link you posted while here at work, but if it's a mundane gem of specific cost that's used a material component, then it's non-magical and therefor unaffected by Disjunction.

On the Contingency aspect, can't you counterspell with Dispel Magic? I thought you could, even into PF and Dispel Magic would work in place of the specific spell. No one in my game ever counterspells but they probably should. Would save their hide more often than not. Give it a looksie and see if you can counterspell by using Dispel Magic.

Finally, what are the specifics of this point-based spell system you use? I am curious.

[Lord of Shadows]

I can't access the spell link you posted while here at work, but if it's a mundane gem of specific cost that's used a material component, then it's non-magical and therefore unaffected by Disjunction.
From the spell Instant Summons:

Components V, S, M (sapphire worth 1,000 gp)

First, you must place your arcane mark on the item (the one to be summoned). Then you cast this spell, which magically and invisibly inscribes the name of the item on a sapphire worth at least 1,000 gp. Thereafter, you can summon the item by speaking a special word (set by you when the spell is cast) and crushing the gem. The item appears instantly in your hand. Only you can use the gem in this way.

On the Contingency aspect, can't you counterspell with Dispel Magic? I thought you could, even into PF and Dispel Magic would work in place of the specific spell. No one in my game ever counterspells but they probably should. Would save their hide more often than not. Give it a looksie and see if you can counterspell by using Dispel Magic.
Yes, we can try to Counter with Dispel, although we all suspect we are up against a near god-like casting level. The way the previous combats have gone, relying on a caster level check is problematic at best. But it is an option.

Finally, what are the specifics of this point-based spell system you use? I am curious.
I am not sure how the point totals are determined, the DM hasn't shared the formula. Your total goes up every level, seems to be boosted by the caster's primary ability, and can also be boosted by items. Everyone, even non-casters, gets them and can try to do other things with them. A 1st level spell costs 1 point for a caster to cast and the cost goes up by 2 for each higher level. You can add more points than needed to do things like apply a Metamagic effect, increase the DC, etc etc. Adding too many can have bad side-effects. That's about it. What it has basically done is turned everyone into a Sorcerer, since casting the spell does not remove it from memory, it just uses points.

[Lord of Shadows]

In a related question, I am also curious whether Instant Summons would work in areas where Teleport-type spells do not. Instant Summons is Conjuration (Summoning), not Conjuration (Teleport) (Teleport, Dimension Door, Plane Shift, Refuge, etc).

It seems like Instant Summons should work, since it's different. Any ideas on this? (Of course, with this DM, he could just say NO form of travel works at all.. :smallannoyed: )

[agentnone]

The point system doesn't sound too bad, though letting everyone, even fighters, use it kind of makes being a primary caster not as important. But eh, whatever works for the campaign and group right?

Anyway, I would say that since the Instant Summons spells puts a magic effect on the gem, then I would say that yes, the stone would be subject to Disjunction if it is cast on the gem before the Disjunction is. And you could argue that Conjuration (Summoning) should work while Conjuration (Teleport) may not. Otherwise, Summon Monster and other similar spells wouldn't function either. With that being said, I would test the waters and try to use Summon Monster I (1 spell point) and see if it works. If that works, then your Instant Summons should as well. And by using the water test, you may able to "one-up" the DM.

What you could also do, because you're a caster and you're smart like that, is before you walk into the battle, set up the Instant Summons and put the gem somewhere within range and sight of where you'll be but just outside of range for the Disjunct. Then after that happens, use Mage Hand to bring the gem to you so you can use it. Hence keeping the gem from getting dispelled and allowing you to use it without any problems. Possibly, use it to put all your gear into a Handy Haversack and have the sack the item you summon to you. Then you can minimize the damage done by the Disjunction. Though you've fought the enemy before IIRC from your posts. Does he make it a habbit of casting Disjunct more than once? If so then all of this planning and thinking aloud may be a moot point. However, the good thing about Disjunction is that there is a small chance for each magic item hit with the spell to be permanently shut off. Otherwise, it's just a survival game until your gear turns back on.

[Sudain]

What about forcing a concentration check on the guy(s) casting dis-junction?

[Lord of Shadows]

The point system doesn't sound too bad, though letting everyone, even fighters, use it kind of makes being a primary caster not as important. But eh, whatever works for the campaign and group right?

I should also point out that the non-casters get only a fraction of the spell points that casters get, and it is alot easier for them to "mess up" (fatigued, nosebleed, etc) than it is for a caster.


Anyway, I would say that since the Instant Summons spells puts a magic effect on the gem, then I would say that yes, the stone would be subject to Disjunction if it is cast on the gem before the Disjunction is.

I was leaning that same way, just hoping that it somehow would be considered a spell component. I like the idea of dropping the gem nearby and then grabbing it. That is something this DM would probably not expect, which is good for us.


.

[Lord of Shadows]

What about forcing a concentration check on the guy(s) casting dis-junction?

The problem there, at least on previous fights with underlings, has been their use of Greater Invisibility with Mind Blank...and flying. Making them almost impossible to target right away.

Our DM also found the Pathfinder wording for Concentration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration), which basically says that the damage has to be caused while the spell is being cast for it to force a check. Seems like in 3.x it was different.

But, yes, forcing Concentration checks would be good.

[jaybird]

I don't suppose you could pull the Time Stop+Gate combo, could you? Disjunction won't be able to touch you while you're putting up Time Stop, and a couple Solars will provide nice cannon fodder while your party sets about knocking down all his buffs. If you somehow can't win initiative, Gate before you storm in. Bonus points if you have a Summoner - at epic levels he can use Summon Monster 9 as a standard action 3+CHA times a day for 1 minute/level. I never thought I'd say the words "Solar rush", but hey...

[Lord of Shadows]

I don't suppose you could pull the Time Stop+Gate combo, could you? Disjunction won't be able to touch you while you're putting up Time Stop, and a couple Solars will provide nice cannon fodder while your party sets about knocking down all his buffs. If you somehow can't win initiative, Gate before you storm in.

That is an excellent idea. Unfortunately the player who had the arcane caster became disgusted with this DM a few weeks ago (one too many "nerfs") and quit playing in this campaign. I play a cleric, but for him to do that combo (have to use Miracle and boost it with Spell Points) might cause a nosebleed, or worse. If it could be pulled off, then yes, Time Stop + Anything is a good strategy.


Bonus points if you have a Summoner - at epic levels he can use Summon Monster 9 as a standard action 3+CHA times a day for 1 minute/level. I never thought I'd say the words "Solar rush", but hey...

No, no Summoner... we do have an Epic Alchemist. And boy, are those nice to have in your corner.


.

[jaybird]

Is there any way for you to get Gate? Summon Monster 9 has Astral Devas, but those just won't cut it against the sort of enemy you're talking about - CR14 is a joke to an epic character. You really really want a handful of Solars to bumrush him with.

Forcing Concentration checks is pretty easy - Necklace of Fireball + a whole bunch of hirelings. Invisibility doesn't help when the entire room is exploding.

[Lord of Shadows]

Is there any way for you to get Gate? Summon Monster 9 has Astral Devas, but those just won't cut it against the sort of enemy you're talking about - CR14 is a joke to an epic character. You really really want a handful of Solars to bumrush him with.

Yep, Gate is a Cleric spell, so my character can do that. In fact, the Kingdom we are "saving" has access to special Gates that connect two places on the same plane. They have been used in the past for the transport of large groups (like troops). Just one catch... someone has to get to the location where you want the other end to open and set up a "receiver." Sort of hazardous duty in certain situations, like this one.

But.. we have considered trying that too. Get the gate to open and send something through to occupy the underlings. A Solar would be good. BTW, this is a world where the "gods" have almost all died out. Two are left, locked in a constant battle. A "Fallen Solar [Advanced]" might be a more accurate description of what we are up against.


Forcing Concentration checks is pretty easy - Necklace of Fireball + a whole bunch of hirelings. Invisibility doesn't help when the entire room is exploding.

This bunch is likely to have Resistances and SR up the wazoo.. but there are things that might work, like Earthquake. (Variable saves, No SR, just have to be careful the whole place doesn't come down on everyone).


.

[jaybird]

Hmm...some sort of Widened Glitterdust or area Disjunction spam? Also, Doom Scarabs is a 60 ft cone blast with SR No won't kill him (Will half...derp) but it's sure to put on some hurting and make him roll Concentration checks. Hope your UMD is good...

As for underlings...that's what you use your Summon Monster spells to fight. If you can, even try to just keep one character constantly on crowd control. What's your party composition?