Optimization Irrespective of Class

[Curious]

Alright Playground, here's a challenge for you. How well can you optimize a character using only feats, skills, magic items, and other such things that are available to all characters? Assume that your character has the following-

Easy Mode:
Full BAB.
d10 Hit Die.
8 + Int skills.
All Skills are Class Skills.
All Good Saves.
Gains 1 extra feat at 1st level, and 1 feat every level after that.
40 point buy.

Hard Mode:
Bad BAB.
d6 Hit Die.
2 + Int skills.
Commoner Skill List.
All Bad Saves.
Gains 1 feat at every odd level.
32 point buy.

Only +0 LA races are allowed, as are +0 LA templates.
Flaws are allowed.

How much can you do with this? (Excluding Leadership, Animal Handling, and these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35) shenanigans).

[noparlpf]

Could you clarify "at least one feat every level after that"?

[Curious]

You gain one feat every level. Including feats usually gained by level progression.

So, your feats gained would be something like-

1st lvl: 2 feats
2nd lvl: 1 feat
3rd level: 1 feat
etc.

[noparlpf]

Hmm. I might try this depending on how much work I have this week.

[Psyren]

Wasn't there a way to give a fighter 9th-level spells using only feats? I think that would win this challenge, especially since we're getting a feat every level.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What skills are class skills?

[noparlpf]

Wasn't there a way to give a fighter 9th-level spells using only feats? I think that would win this challenge, especially since we're getting a feat every level.

Yeah. I think with the generic Warrior you could have 9th level spells at around 10th-12th level. So with a feat every level it would be around the same.

[Curious]

Wasn't there a way to give a fighter 9th-level spells using only feats? I think that would win this challenge, especially since we're getting a feat every level.

I think that one was proven not to work, but somebody might want to post the progression anyways.

EDIT:

Easy Mode: All skills are class skills.

Hard Mode: Commoner List.

[AmberVael]

The level 9 spells through feats was outlined here by Dextercorvia. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35)

[Curious]

The level 9 spells through feats was outlined here by Dextercorvia. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35)

. . . Huh. Welp, OP editing, go!

[Zonugal]

Bad BAB.
d6 Hit Die.
2 + Int skills.
Commoner Skill List.
All Bad Saves.
Gains 1 feat at every odd level.

Hard mode huh?

Male Forest Gnomes with their ranks put into Listen and Spot. For feats they will select Forester (for a +3 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot), Poison Use and Dark Stalker (using flaws...). They should have something like +15 to Hide while in the forests with an always active Pass without Trace and Dark Stalker which means they can do what they need to do without being detected...

[Psyren]

. . . Huh. Welp, OP editing, go!

That was easy :smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

Insert the Cube build here

[Curious]

Hard mode huh?

Male Forest Gnomes with their ranks put into Listen and Spot. For feats they will select Forester (for a +3 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot), Poison Use and Dark Stalker (using flaws...). They should have something like +15 to Hide while in the forests with an always active Pass without Trace and Dark Stalker which means they can do what they need to do without being detected...

Hmm, pretty stealthy, but I don't think combat ability would be very impressive.


Insert Cube build here.

What's that one again? It uses walls of force that fly, or something like that, right?

[Zonugal]

Another viable build is simply this:

Mongrelfolk, 4 ranks in Climb and Jump, Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar).

The Mongrelfolk simply stays within 30ft. of his opponent through jumping & climbing while his Soulspark Familiar attacks for him. The Soulspark Familiar has 13 hit points and hits on a touch attack. If destroyed it is immediately summoned again. Without any consistent ranged support the Mongrelfolk has a good shot of winning via attrition from his Soulspark Familiar.

[Glimbur]

You can get a lot of Incarnum via feats alone, though your essentia pool will be somewhat lackluster. Level 1 is Dissolving Spittle and an [Incarnum] feat, with racial choice providing one essentia so you do 2d6 damage at will at a range of 30' as a ranged touch. Level 3 is Expanded Soulmeld Capacity to kick that up to 3d6. After that... it's trickier. Cute at low levels though.

[Curious]

I thought Incarnum was gonna see some heavy use, and I am not disappointed.

[Emperor Tippy]

Optimizing for what?

Damage? Skill checks? Magic? Survival?

[Curious]

Optimizing for what?

Damage? Skill checks? Magic? Survival?

Anything. Basically, try to create a character that can be useful and powerful in as many situations as possible.

[Thurbane]

It goes without saying, but maxing UMD is a good start. Also, other skills like Iajutsu Focus and Autohypnosis. If Diplomancy is on the table, max that, too.

The feats that allow non-Binders to grab an ability or two from a vestige might be an idea.

Would the Fey/Fiendish Heritage feats that give SLAs count as an arcane caster levels for Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar?

[Curious]

Would the Fey/Fiendish Heritage feats that give SLAs count as an arcane caster levels for Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar?

I don't think so, SLAs aren't spells.

[noparlpf]

It goes without saying, but maxing UMD is a good start. Also, other skills like Iajutsu Focus and Autohypnosis. If Diplomancy is on the table, max that, too.

The feats that allow non-Binders to grab an ability or two from a vestige might be an idea.

Would the Fey/Fiendish Heritage feats that give SLAs count as an arcane caster levels for Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar?

Magical Training gives you an arcane caster level of 1.

[Treblain]

Not a full build, but just an idea:

Race: Desert Kobold

Feats: Dragonwrought, Martial Study (Assassin's Stance and prerequisite), Craven, Animal Devotion, Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings, Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) or Travel Devotion, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, etc... Any spare feats, spend on monstrous and dragon feats.

Use grafts, feats, and other means to get lots of natural attacks. Use them, with sneak attack and Craven when possible. If you need someone to flank with and leadership/cohort feats are disallowed, Water Devotion lets you summon a water elemental.

If your claws are retractable, you can use Iaijitsu Focus on all your claw attacks. Shouting SNIKT! is mandatory.

[Draz74]

Imperious Command is an amazing way to give a character like this an additional viable offense. For Hard Mode, CHA 15 might be hard to get, but Intimidate as a class skill can be gained through Martial Study (something from Devoted Spirit).


Another viable build is simply this:

Mongrelfolk, 4 ranks in Climb and Jump, Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar).

The Mongrelfolk simply stays within 30ft. of his opponent through jumping & climbing while his Soulspark Familiar attacks for him. The Soulspark Familiar has 13 hit points and hits on a touch attack. If destroyed it is immediately summoned again. Without any consistent ranged support the Mongrelfolk has a good shot of winning via attrition from his Soulspark Familiar.
That's awesome. :smallamused: Seems like I've seen an LA +0 race that gets Spider Climbing abilities, though.


You can get a lot of Incarnum via feats alone, though your essentia pool will be somewhat lackluster. Level 1 is Dissolving Spittle and an [Incarnum] feat, with racial choice providing one essentia so you do 2d6 damage at will at a range of 30' as a ranged touch. Level 3 is Expanded Soulmeld Capacity to kick that up to 3d6. After that... it's trickier. Cute at low levels though.

I recommend being an Azurin, so you can get Expanded Soulmeld Capacity at Level 1. Also, you can arguably double your damage output with this method by taking Hidden Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, and Share Soulmeld. (I recommend Synchronicity for the power you pick up with Hidden Talent. Although Precognition and Dimension Hop are tempting too.)

[Curious]

Not a full build, but just an idea:

Race: Desert Kobold

Feats: Dragonwrought, Martial Study (Assassin's Stance and prerequisite), Craven, Animal Devotion, Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings, Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) or Travel Devotion, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, etc... Any spare feats, spend on monstrous and dragon feats.

Use grafts, feats, and other means to get lots of natural attacks. Use them, with sneak attack and Craven when possible. If you need someone to flank with and leadership/cohort feats are disallowed, Water Devotion lets you summon a water elemental.

If your claws are retractable, you can use Iaijitsu Focus on all your claw attacks. Shouting SNIKT! is mandatory.

Dragonborn might be another good thing to add to this, so you can get a breath weapon and metabreath feats.

Also, I remembered to add point buy to the OP.

[Little Brother]

Wasn't there a way to give a fighter 9th-level spells using only feats? I think that would win this challenge, especially since we're getting a feat every level.Yep.

The level 9 spells through feats was outlined here by Dextercorvia. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35)There's also the Taint method. More feats just make everything easier. early obtaining, more spells.

[kulosle]

dragon cohort, that dragon cohort has a dragon cohort, and that dragon has a dragon cohort etc. i have an army. but that is kind of silly. umm, i definitely believe that what ever the optimization of this is, it involves kobolds. +3 to all mental stats for free is very nice.

[DoctorGlock]

First feat I'd grab is spellfire wielder. Our commoner can now heal, blast and counter. Then I'd work on leadership, undead leadership, and landlord will full use of WBLmancy. Now our spellfire cannon commoner has a flying fortress of invulneraility and leads legions of troops in the field including a necropolitan incantarix and a cleric as cohorts. The others have already pulled the 9th level spell stuff. Now we just sell our commoner's soul to elder evils repeatedly for more feats and use dark chaos scroll shuffle to turn them into more spells or incarnum feats. Lets not forget the binding feats. That's about the best I can come up with.

[molten_dragon]

Well, with easy mode you can make a pretty good charger build. It won't be quite as good without pounce, but it will still be pretty decent.

[flumphy]

Well, with easy mode you can make a pretty good charger build. It won't be quite as good without pounce, but it will still be pretty decent.

With martial study you could even gain a pseudo-pounce or two. Combine this with Hidden Talen/Psionic Talent/Psychic Renewal and you can even refresh your maneuvers.

[Treblain]

Dragonborn might be another good thing to add to this, so you can get a breath weapon and metabreath feats.


I don't think Dragonwrought Kobold can be Dragonborn, seeing as how they're already Dragon type. If you want to try that kind of build, you could try a Dragonborn Raptoran; many of the natural attack options are still available. I tried to work the Dragonfire Strike feat into it, but RAW it doesn't work because it requires sneak attack as a class feature.

[Heatwizard]

Magical Training gives you an arcane caster level of 1.

The version I'm looking at says "You are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast." It doesn't say 'you get caster level', it says 'you cast as if you had a caster level'. Maybe I'm out of the loop, did it get errata or something?

[Amphetryon]

The Cube build is an old Test of Spite build that's essentially pure WBLomancy. It's a nigh-impervious flying fortress, piloted by a commoner because the originator couldn't be bothered statting out the character after he spent so much time on the WBL.

[noparlpf]

The version I'm looking at says "You are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast." It doesn't say 'you get caster level', it says 'you cast as if you had a caster level'. Maybe I'm out of the loop, did it get errata or something?

Maybe I was just reading it wrong. It's too early in the morning to check.

[Coidzor]

Hmm... easy mode + 2 flaws + human = 24 feats, which if spent right can more or less equal a meldshaper at a particular aspect of its game, if I'm reading the discussion I spawned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222577) correctly.

Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, and Practiced Binder are 3 feats for 2 powers as if one were a 5th level binder. If improved binding is OK'd, that bumps it to 4 feats for 7th level binderness. What would that give us that's most of interest here?

Just found a brief discussion of feats for operations such as this for those interested. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7486.0) Even had the seeds of an apparently abandoned/incomplete handbook idea...