Race building? [3.PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

I am assuming that this thread more properly belongs on here since it concerns the construction of races for my own campaign setting rather than on the main homebrewing subforum. If this is not the case, I apologize and will try to get this moved to the proper place expediently.

Now, onto the meat and potatoes:

I find myself with at least another week to prepare for my irl group and would like the time to rework the races of my setting more properly before launching it.

The problem is that I used Pathfinder's playtest for the Advance Race Guide to construct all these races and it is only now in hindsight that I discover that the playtest was incredibly borked and it won't be till next April that the final product is put out.

That's far too long to wait for this.

Now, I won't go into the actual races since as a whole they may be reworked or scrapped entirely or merged or any other list of possibilities so it would be a little circular and wasting of time to do so. What I will go into is that I am basing these races around the Drow in terms of power balance.

So I beseech the mighty folk of the World-Building subforum, how do you go about mechanically constructing your races and how would you break down the Drow framework into something manageable to be used as a juxtaposition for what would be appropriate for similarly balanced races?

And while I'm here and have your attention on races, how do you come up with the unique racial personality trends and idiosyncrasies that seem to be genetically inborn to most of the race?

Many thanks in advance.

[the_david]

Just because the method you used is incredibly borked, doesn't mean the races you made are too. Look at the races you've created, what do you think? What do your players think? It's important to get their opinion too, you know. You never know what they come up with if you don't ask them.

[Yora]

Like creating classes, it's almost entirely guessing. The best starting point is to come up with the fluff and then looking for ways to translate that into numbers.

When I think I have everything set, I make a couple of simple characters with the same amount of XP, one human and one of the new race. Then I compare each pair to see what the new race gains and what it loses, and if it seems roughly to even out.

[Tanuki Tales]

Just because the method you used is incredibly borked, doesn't mean the races you made are too. Look at the races you've created, what do you think? What do your players think? It's important to get their opinion too, you know. You never know what they come up with if you don't ask them.

My players...know next to nothing to the actual workings of the game. They leave it solely up to me, even when I'm not DMing or even part of the game at all, to determine if things work out by number crunching (such as balance, encounter building, the variety of determining formulas in the course of a games running, the making of homebrew, etc). As long as things are shiny and they get to run around in a game world they leave all the "work" and "thinking" and "stuff" up to me.

The problem I'm mostly having is that I know how to build a kind of balanced base race. I know how to measure my creations against the Human, Dwarf, Elf, etc. and see if they are at measurably on par.

And I know how to build monsters at least somewhat reliably.

But I'm making these races try to stand up against the Drow (which turned from an LA+2 race to an "Advanced Race" that is only now being defined as not leveling at the exact same rate as one of the base races (sort of, the playtest is really being reworked by the folks at Paizo after the feedback they got) and that's where I find myself in strange territory.

Should I maybe just toss the idea of making them "upgraded" base races and just stat up all of them as CR 2 monsters and treat it as a kind of "Monster World" setting?


Like creating classes, it's almost entirely guessing. The best starting point is to come up with the fluff and then looking for ways to translate that into numbers.

When I think I have everything set, I make a couple of simple characters with the same amount of XP, one human and one of the new race. Then I compare each pair to see what the new race gains and what it loses, and if it seems roughly to even out.

I was afraid it was going to be mostly guess work. :smallsigh:

I'm bad at guess work because my idea of balance isn't necessarily the same as others. Like...I don't see a PC getting Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, the large size category or modifications to how they age as a big deal. Some people, especially on GiTP, see those things as holy grail-esque late level character additions.

So I should build the race and compare them against a Drow?

[the_david]

Don't give them anything you'd think is overpowered, and it should be alright. This is why you should ask your players. If all of them want to play an Ifrit Sorcerer with a fire bloodline, you know there has got to be something wrong with it.

It might help if you post them, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

Don't give them anything you'd think is overpowered, and it should be alright. This is why you should ask your players. If all of them want to play an Ifrit Sorcerer with a fire bloodline, you know there has got to be something wrong with it.

It might help if you post them, though.

As I said, not going to because of how fluid their existence is and how often I'll be making changes once things hit their stride.

And they really don't care what their options are as long as they get to be violent hobbos. :smalltongue:

[Ralasha]

One good idea that the makers of D&D used is to take myths and legends and build the races based on those.

If you should wish to stay away from such things it could be far more difficult to come up with entirely new and alien ideas.

I will give you an example, which I will be creating right here.
I'm going to start with a legend with which I am intimately familiar. In order to make understanding this process simpler for others whom may read this post I am going to explain my point of view, my basis for each thing added, and the step by step process. This could get ugly and extremely long-winded. I will be splitting it up in spoilers contained in a master spoiler.
To explain the beginning of this, I am of Norse descent. My grandmother followed 'the old gods' Which means I was raised being taught the worship, knowledge, lore, and religion of my ancestors.

You want it equivalent to Drow:
Drow Characters

Drow are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All drow have the following racial traits.

+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution: Drow are nimble and manipulative.

Medium: Drow are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Normal Speed: Drow have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision: Drow can see in the dark up to 120 feet.

Drow Immunities: Drow are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial bonus to saves against enchantment spells.

Keen Senses: Drow receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.

Spell Resistance: Drow possess spell resistance equal to 6 plus their class levels.

Spell-Like Abilities: A drow can cast dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire each once per day, using his total character level as his caster level.

Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds drow for 1 round; on subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.

Poison Use: See Special Abilities, above.

Weapon Familiarity: Drow are proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword.

Languages: Drow begin play speaking Elven and Undercommon. Drow with high Intelligence can choose bonus languages from the following: Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Common, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, or Goblin.

Among the legends of my people there are men reborn. Given second life. These men are called 'immortals'. They are not immortal by modern definition. They are merely not 'mortal men'. Meaning they are superior in some fashion.

To use a rather well-known example of what could be considered a very... corrupted and abused immortal, I bring to case the name Beowulf. He would have been considered an Immortal for the following reasons:
He is 1: More Agile, 2: Stronger, and 3: Tougher than mortal men, according To the Old Religion he would be an Immortal, a Reborn Hero.The main thing to take into account here is that the Immortals are human. They died at least once already. The other thing to take into account is that they did not die in battle. They died disgracefully, but lived their lives by the highest standards of courage and morality. As a reward they are given another chance to enter into one of the multiple heavens.
So, I will begin with Human as the base, such heroes is exist for all races, according to each races own standards and virtues.Being reborn, the character will instinctively remember much of what it learned in its first life. It will not however, remember such things consciously. We will, as such things go, merely be taking the standard human and enhancing it to Heroic standards.
To the building: As an Advanced Human:
Human Racial Traits Total: (2+1+8+8+2+1+1+6+3=30)
Flexible Modifiers (2 RP): +2 to any two Ability Scores: Immortal characters get a +2 bonus to two ability scores of their choice at creation to represent their heroic nature. (As humans, only more so, the additional +2 is based on their having been reborn, and having an innate ability to reach heroic heights.)

Medium (0 RP): Immortals are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. (They are human)

Fast Speed (1 RP): Immortals have a base speed of 40 feet. (Immortals are the heroes of man, reborn, they are not mortal men, and naturally push themselves without thought. As a result they move faster than other humans, without effort.)

Bonus Feats (8 RP): Immortals select two extra feats at 1st level. (This represents their instinctive memories. A remembrance of the things they had learned in their past life.)

Skilled (8 RP): Immortals gain two ranks at first level and two additional ranks whenever they gain a level. (An immortal more easily grasps concepts, and is capable of learning more, with less time since they already knew these things before.)

Eternal Destiny <a mix of Eternal Hope, and Fortunate> (6 RP): Members of this race gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20, members of this race may reroll and use the second result. (The idea behind this is that they are naturally more enduring due their own heavenly nature.)

Hold Breath (1 RP): Members of this race can hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to four times their Constitution before risking drowning or suffocating.

Quick (3 RP): Members of this race receive a +4 bonus to Initiative. (Immortals are faster than normal humans as far as their reactions go.)

Weapon Familiarity (1 RP): Choose up to two weapons, members of this race are proficient with those weapons. (This represents a natural skill. This may be any two weapons of the players choosing.)

Linguist Array (2 RP): Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).

Alignment Restriction (-1 RP): Immortals may not begin play as an evil character. Their heroic and Idealistic nature does not allow for it, and evil is not known for giving second chances.

I hope this helps. Much of it is guesswork, but more of it is a logical progression based on the idea you have in mind. Using existent sources for the basis such as what I did can make the process much simpler.

[Tanuki Tales]

While appreciated Ralasha, the problem is that I originally made my races using Pathfinder's rules and the rules were later found to be extremely borked by those who playtested them for Paizo. So using them to try and fix a problem started by them kind of gets us nowhere fast. :smallfrown:

What I'm trying to do is to break down and distill Drow as a mechanical constant. What is the value of the Drow as a mechanical race and by extension what was the true value of a +2 Level Adjustment originally?

Once I understand the value of the Drow as mechanic framework then I can start building my races more properly. The fluff is in no way the issue, just the mechanics.

[Ralasha]

I can get you the RP value of drow rather easily. If you prefer, since I am rather good at balancing issues, I could rework the costs in the custom races rules, and give you a more balanced evaluation. Or, if you told me what you wanted, I could build them for you, and explain each item for them as well as why they are built as they are. I could also answer any questions. If you provided the races you designed, fixing them would be a lot easier.

[Yora]

What I'm trying to do is to break down and distill Drow as a mechanical constant. What is the value of the Drow as a mechanical race and by extension what was the true value of a +2 Level Adjustment originally?

Once I understand the value of the Drow as mechanic framework then I can start building my races more properly. The fluff is in no way the issue, just the mechanics.
However, that's not how this works. It's not the sum of the parts that define how good the race is compared to another class level, but the way these abilities work together with each other. Which is exactly the reason why ARG doesn't work, as it treats the value of each trait only by itself.

Then you also have to consider what classes and tactics characters of the race will most likely use. Big bonuses to Strength and the ability to become a melee juggernaut are pretty much useless if you want to have a race of sneaky sorcerers.

If you want a race of orc berserkers swinging huge axes, the stats of a standard elf or halfling would be just terrible, even though they are not that bad races.

[Ralasha]

However, that's not how this works. It's not the sum of the parts that define how good the race is compared to another class level, but the way these abilities work together with each other. Which is exactly the reason why ARG doesn't work, as it treats the value of each trait only by itself.

Then you also have to consider what classes and tactics characters of the race will most likely use. Big bonuses to Strength and the ability to become a melee juggernaut are pretty much useless if you want to have a race of sneaky sorcerers.

If you want a race of orc berserkers swinging huge axes, the stats of a standard elf or halfling would be just terrible, even though they are not that bad races.

I have a name for you. >.> Belkar. Also, halfling Barbarians can be scary.

[Tanuki Tales]

However, that's not how this works. It's not the sum of the parts that define how good the race is compared to another class level, but the way these abilities work together with each other. Which is exactly the reason why ARG doesn't work, as it treats the value of each trait only by itself.

Then you also have to consider what classes and tactics characters of the race will most likely use. Big bonuses to Strength and the ability to become a melee juggernaut are pretty much useless if you want to have a race of sneaky sorcerers.

If you want a race of orc berserkers swinging huge axes, the stats of a standard elf or halfling would be just terrible, even though they are not that bad races.



I don't see how pigeonholing has to do with trying to find a guideline/power curve to balance the races amongst each other.

No, you won't get them all to be equal because not even all base races are created equal (looking at you Human and Dwarf) but you should be able to determine a rule of thumb for the general ball park.

I mean, that's how Level Adjustment originally worked (even if it was a flawed concept).

Though now I'm just wondering if I should use VT's monster creation guide to brew up the races since folks seem to find it a sound formula.

[Ralasha]

VT's? Linky please?

[Tanuki Tales]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43009

Edit: And of course, it gives me a borked answer when I try to compute the Drow. Roughly CR 2 my foot.

This is really starting to get aggravating.

Edit Edit: I wonder if I could break down the Drow into an amount of "feat slots" and build races that way.

Edit Edit Edit:

Alright, this is my attempt of converting Drow into an amount of feat slots. This method only takes into account prerequisites that include other feats.

Darkvision out to 120 feet is 1.5 feat slots. There are feats that give either straight darkvision or senses way better than darkvision so I felt regular Dakrvision is worth .5 feat slots while doubling it is straight 1 feat.

The Drow Immunities I bring to being .75 feat slots. Immunity to sleep effects is super specific and bonuses to Enchantment saves are specific, making the former .25 feat slots and the latter .5 slots.

Keen Senses is 1 feat slot, mostly because I plan to reinvent racial bonuses to skill checks to function like Pathfinder's Skill Focus feat (using HD instead of ranks for when it upgrades).

Spell Resistance 6+level is 1 feat slot.

The SLAs I was a little unsure on costing but I'll make 1 feat slot.

Light Blindness is -1 feat. It's comparable to other flaws, so I felt this prudent a costing.

Poison Use is 1 feat slot.

Weapon Familiarity is 3 feat slots.

So the end total for the Drow is 8.25 feat slots.