components and spell casting

[The Reverend]

Ok in 3.5 I've never played a by the book spellcaster, some homebrew stuff yes not important. What is important is I'm considering playing the caster for an upcoming campaign. The dm did mention to someone else, he and I have not spoken about it, about running spell components by the book. Dont have that ball of sulfer? No exploding fireball for you. I've been lucky enough to in the past play with a couple of great roleplayers who tended toward spellcasters so I want to play a more magical Swiss army knife and character effectiveness multiplier than magical artillery or summoning flights of dragons.


My questions are the following.

• how much should component availability affect my ability to cast?

•Are there any rule nudges or houserules that are commonplace I could try to convince him of that would make the game just flow better?

•The question I'm not asking but should be?

[Douglas]

• how much should component availability affect my ability to cast?
Not at all, usually. As long as you have a Spell Component Pouch (costs 5 gp), you are by the book assumed to have as much of any non-costly material components as you will ever need. The only ones you need to worry about are the ones with individual specific listed prices, and there aren't too many of those.

You might want to keep a few backup spell component pouches in case someone steals or destroys one, but at 5 gp each that's trivial to pay for.

The thing you might need to watch out for regarding material components is if an enemy tries to grapple you - getting a material component out and ready to use is usually free and can be ignored, but it gets a lot harder in a grapple.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You should definatly ask him the limitations and exactly what he means by playing components "by the book." If he means that you just need a spell component for non-expensive spells and have to search out expensive components, then you won't have much of any issue if you avoid grappling and have back up pouches. If he means you have to search out, purchase, and keep a record of all your components, even the ones without listed prices, slap him and tell him your not a book keeper and niether is your wizard. Besides expensive components, you never have to worry about running out of components as long as you have a pouch.

[vitkiraven]

You should definatly ask him the limitations and exactly what he means by playing components "by the book." If he means that you just need a spell component for non-expensive spells and have to search out expensive components, then you won't have much of any issue if you avoid grappling and have back up pouches. If he means you have to search out, purchase, and keep a record of all your components, even the ones without listed prices, slap him and tell him your not a book keeper and niether is your wizard. Besides expensive components, you never have to worry about running out of components as long as you have a pouch.

Yeah, 'cause caster types are so hideously under powered that they should never have to worry about anything. Ever.
Seriously, if it's a big issue there is a feat, Eschew Material Components. I wouldn't allow it (and I'd make the caster keep track of components, but that's me). EMC is 100% SRD legal, so just a feat tax, or focus on the non-material component based spells.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Yeah, 'cause caster types are so hideously under powered that they should never have to worry about anything. Ever.
Seriously, if it's a big issue there is a feat, Eschew Material Components. I wouldn't allow it (and I'd make the caster keep track of components, but that's me). EMC is 100% SRD legal, so just a feat tax, or focus on the non-material component based spells.

Theres a difference between a nerf and an unreasonable hassle for the player. Keeping track of every component individually is an unreasonable hassle for the player.

If you like keeping meticulous list of all your components that you update every other round and many many times per adventuring days, good for you. But not everybody likes that. If you want to nerf spellcasters, nerf them right. Restrict access to game breaking spells, change game breaking spells, but don't be sneaky about it and just make them a hassle to play. That isn't fun. I'll happily play a tier 3 or 4 Wizard fix (if one exists, and don't say "Warmage" or "Beguiler" or other tier 3 casters, they aren't Wizards) as long as your up front about it.

[FearlessGnome]

There are not listed prices for most of the non-costly components. Just about every arcane spell has a material component. Keeping track of them is annoying for both the player and the DM. If it's not annoying for the DM, you are not hounding him enough about searching out old women who have been collecting random things in the forest all their lives. If he is making you pay for every spell component individually, he has no idea what it is like to play a caster with those restrictions. If he won't budge, make a divine caster, because you will not be able to enjoy the game with all that tedious bookkeeping. And neither will the DM, because every time you want a new spell he is going to have to decide how much it costs and where you can find it.

Some spells have components with listed prices. For everything else, there is indeed the spell component pouch. It even says so in the description.

[vitkiraven]

Theres a difference between a nerf and an unreasonable hassle for the player. Keeping track of every component individually is an unreasonable hassle for the player.

If you like keeping meticulous list of all your components that you update every other round and many many times per adventuring days, good for you. But not everybody likes that. If you want to nerf spellcasters, nerf them right. Restrict access to game breaking spells, change game breaking spells, but don't be sneaky about it and just make them a hassle to play. That isn't fun. I'll happily play a tier 3 or 4 Wizard fix (if one exists, and don't say "Warmage" or "Beguiler" or other tier 3 casters, they aren't Wizards) as long as your up front about it.

And a wizard should have ALL material components for ALL of their spells, in a little <5lb fanny pack, that takes no effort to withdraw items from? Even the HHH doesn't get that sweet of a deal. As it is written now, wizards have no mechanical drawbacks to their ability to cast spells. The spell component pouch, as cheap and pathetic as it is, needs only be purchased once, at first level, and after 20 levels, and who knows how many spells, even if we judge off the minimum most wizard lovers recommend, and 1 spell ending every encounter, on average, with an average of 14 encounters, that's 280 spells, without anything for divination, downtime, or buffing. Maybe if it was just for one levels worth of spells, or maybe a set number of spell levels (like charges), I'd be less incredulous about it, but as it stands, it's complete and total BS, but it's legal bs. RAW, pay the 5 gold toll, or the feat tax. If not that, maybe the dm is making it the focus of his campaign, and he happened to have picked up an old copy of Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog, which has the prices for almost EVERYTHING, including spell components.

And it's not like the DM in question wasn't up front about this. Hell, starting out, the character shouldn't have that many spells to worry about anyway.


As for a fix, for me, it starts at using the Call of Cthulhu spell costs, or the full round action for casting with no quicken and no spellcasting in other forms, period. And ditching the problem spells, and instituting a maximum amount of spells cast on a person at a time.

[MesiDoomstalker]

And a wizard should have ALL material components for ALL of their spells, in a little <5lb fanny pack, that takes no effort to withdraw items from? Even the HHH doesn't get that sweet of a deal. As it is written now, wizards have no mechanical drawbacks to their ability to cast spells. The spell component pouch, as cheap and pathetic as it is, needs only be purchased once, at first level, and after 20 levels, and who knows how many spells, even if we judge off the minimum most wizard lovers recommend, and 1 spell ending every encounter, on average, with an average of 14 encounters, that's 280 spells, without anything for divination, downtime, or buffing. Maybe if it was just for one levels worth of spells, or maybe a set number of spell levels (like charges), I'd be less incredulous about it, but as it stands, it's complete and total BS, but it's legal bs. RAW, pay the 5 gold toll, or the feat tax. If not that, maybe the dm is making it the focus of his campaign, and he happened to have picked up an old copy of Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog, which has the prices for almost EVERYTHING, including spell components.

And it's not like the DM in question wasn't up front about this. Hell, starting out, the character shouldn't have that many spells to worry about anyway.


As for a fix, for me, it starts at using the Call of Cthulhu spell costs, or the full round action for casting with no quicken and no spellcasting in other forms, period. And ditching the problem spells, and instituting a maximum amount of spells cast on a person at a time.

Since when did D&D follow logic? Logically, a single component pouch shouldn't always have the components a caster needs. But a good game doesn't bore its players. Keeping track of every component is boring. Very, oh so very boring. That is not something fun to play. Its a nerf, while realistic, isn't for the sake of balancing power but to discourge play of powerful classes. Thats underhanded and is a sign of a bad DM. I'm not disagreeing casters are powerful. I'm saying don't push your fixes to casters as the only correct ways to fix them. There are far better and more constructive ways to nerf casters while still making them fun to play.

[Andreaz]

As it is written now, wizards have no mechanical drawbacks to their ability to cast spells.So I sunder your pouch. Good luck casting most of your spells. Hope you have teleport prepared. And that you have a reserve pack. And that you didn't commit the mistake of being open to attack.


I'm not saying wizards aren't too powerful. I'm saying that making them check every damn component ever is a stupid solution to power them down. Do you want reasons? Here they are:
1) It doesn't diminish the power of the caster at all.
----If the DM thinks "you don't get to cast X" diminishes the power of the caster, then he can just say "you don't get to cast X". Relying on the OP's situation will only force the group to spend tedious hours rounding up spell components. And you bet someone bent on playing a wiz will seek components every session, hogging the game down in the process.

2) It makes casters incredibly tedious and confusing to play.
----Note that they are ALREADY tedious and confusing if you aren't extremely attuned to what they do. This solution is tedious and confusing.
3) It barely touches the power of 3/4 of the overpowered casters
----Clerics and druids barely need material components in the first place, so they still get to be on top for no additional cost.



tl;dr: forcing casters to log and obtain all free material components ever slows the game down because players will waste time threefold every step they take in-game, and it doesn't weaken the caster at all.

[maysarahs]

A houserule I sometimes use that keeps things "realistic" is that any time a player wizard enters a town they must refill their spell component pouch at a price = 5gp* the highest level spell they cast. It will always be trivial, and much more a flavor point than a mechanic (they could just avoid towns, though if they are misers (:smallconfused:) and start gaming the system, I consider the pouch empty upon level up) but it keeps the people who think this should be necessary quiet while retaining the RAW lack of hassle for casters.

[Curmudgeon]

Spell components become interesting when the party's out in the wilderness and the spell component pouch goes missing. (It could be as simple as a raccoon sniffing out the edible components inside, and making off with the thing.) That's a perfectly reasonable random encounter, with pretty interesting consequences as you try to assemble pinches of soot, live crickets, and whatnot.

[vitkiraven]

Since when did D&D follow logic? Logically, a single component pouch shouldn't always have the components a caster needs. But a good game doesn't bore its players. Keeping track of every component is boring. Very, oh so very boring. That is not something fun to play. Its a nerf, while realistic, isn't for the sake of balancing power but to discourge play of powerful classes. Thats underhanded and is a sign of a bad DM. I'm not disagreeing casters are powerful. I'm saying don't push your fixes to casters as the only correct ways to fix them. There are far better and more constructive ways to nerf casters while still making them fun to play.
I don't know, as a DM, I always found it interesting to keep track of a player's expendable resources, but then again, that includes arrows, rations, and even encumbrance (oh, no, that must make me the worst DM in the world! :smallbiggrin: ), I have found that once someone has to bum food off another character, they tend to keep track of their own stuff better. Then again, I started with a Gygaxian DM with the Rules Cyclopedia, and have had a character survive because of random equipment he carried, so my focus on equipment might be a bit more than other peoples.
Honestly, I've never had a spellcaster in a campaign that didn't keep meticulous track of not only their own resources, but the treasure, and other party resources as well. They sometimes even went as far as to keep track round to round on a written out spreadsheet. But that's my mileage. I tend to GM gritty games, and I have taken the lovely resource of books that do have the costs printed out to use as I need. Sure some things SHOULD be easy to get, and I don't have a problem with those things, but then again, how many tiny bells and silver wires does one find in a medieval society? And where does one find the amber, crystal or glass rod to cast ones spells, none the less fit in a non-magical fanny pack?
But then again, I've never had the problems of which I speak with spellcasters, because they either took ESM or the ROLEPLAYED buying and acquiring spell components, and it never took up that much time, when other players where market hunting anyway.
TL:DR, Your mileage may vary. None of the players I gamed with had these problems you are mentioning, their problems came more from giant hampsters and kobolds. :smallamused:

[vitkiraven]

A houserule I sometimes use that keeps things "realistic" is that any time a player wizard enters a town they must refill their spell component pouch at a price = 5gp* the highest level spell they cast. It will always be trivial, and much more a flavor point than a mechanic (they could just avoid towns, though if they are misers (:smallconfused:) and start gaming the system, I consider the pouch empty upon level up) but it keeps the people who think this should be necessary quiet while retaining the RAW lack of hassle for casters.

I like this mechanism, and might steel it, if that's okay. I haven't had a problem yet, but if it does become one, I think I will put this in play. Good HR!

[vitkiraven]

So I sunder your pouch. Good luck casting most of your spells. Hope you have teleport prepared. And that you have a reserve pack. And that you didn't commit the mistake of being open to attack.


I'm not saying wizards aren't too powerful. I'm saying that making them check every damn component ever is a stupid solution to power them down. Do you want reasons? Here they are:
1) It doesn't diminish the power of the caster at all.
----If the DM thinks "you don't get to cast X" diminishes the power of the caster, then he can just say "you don't get to cast X". Relying on the OP's situation will only force the group to spend tedious hours rounding up spell components. And you bet someone bent on playing a wiz will seek components every session, hogging the game down in the process.

2) It makes casters incredibly tedious and confusing to play.
----Note that they are ALREADY tedious and confusing if you aren't extremely attuned to what they do. This solution is tedious and confusing.
3) It barely touches the power of 3/4 of the overpowered casters
----Clerics and druids barely need material components in the first place, so they still get to be on top for no additional cost.



tl;dr: forcing casters to log and obtain all free material components ever slows the game down because players will waste time threefold every step they take in-game, and it doesn't weaken the caster at all.
Okay, let me see if I can clear something up. A) yes this might be used to try to powerdown spellcasters, but honestly, I've never kept spellcasters from BUYING all the components for the spells they seek, hell, they usually buy extra stuff that just might be useful someway down the road, or even just for flavour. Even if not, it is still a roleplaying experience for the caster to seek out the the eye of newt style stores, while other characters are going to the temple, or the guild, or the armorer, or what have you. Honestly, if the wizard has a list of what they want, and DON'T want to roleplay, that's fine too. I just tally it up, and give them a cost. What is so nerfing or difficult about that? Furthermore, doing this actually encourages people to read the spells, and thus works to promote a better knowledge of the game. This material component issue is not a nerf, just like making the armored types buy armor maintenance kits, and sword wielders buy whetstones. It's not about dragging a class down, its about using the inherent nuances a class has to bring more flavour to the game. In my games, I'd imagine it would have gotten pretty exciting if the mage had forgotten to restock a component that they had recently used, and now needed. It has never been life or death, for my groups, but the learning curve that people need for my games is pretty decent, but I do take time out after games to help those that need it.
Again, YMMV, among my players, this hasn't been a major issue, and it has been a great roleplaying opportunity. I haven't looked at swinging a nerf bat at spellcasters until recently, so this isn't a nerf specifically to me. Dropping actions, dropping spells, dropping other forms, etc... are all nerfs, this can be just good (or bad) roleplaying, depending on your personal experiences.

[vitkiraven]

Spell components become interesting when the party's out in the wilderness and the spell component pouch goes missing. (It could be as simple as a raccoon sniffing out the edible components inside, and making off with the thing.) That's a perfectly reasonable random encounter, with pretty interesting consequences as you try to assemble pinches of soot, live crickets, and whatnot.
Yeah, what raccoon wouldn't be interested in fireflies, pork rinds, shiny bells and silver wire, yummy leather, or any of the other things in there? Excellent random encounter!

[maysarahs]

I like this mechanism, and might steel it, if that's okay. I haven't had a problem yet, but if it does become one, I think I will put this in play. Good HR!

Be my guest! I want to stress though that my HR is only used when someone does bring up spell component pouches as being the bottleneck to a casters power (it really isn't). In lower level games, it encourages roleplay as they remember to make a trip to the magic shop, at higher levels, its 45gp max, they won't miss it.

Given that someone whines about it though, I find it is a decent fix as a DM and a player to either of them having to remember whether they/I acquired 3 balls of bat guano, or 4 for the day. Plus even by RAW it is difficult to keep track of priceless components. Color spray lists "red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand" which is such a vague requirement, and one that will become difficult to keep track of since there is no ruling on how much is used per casting, so I have no idea if buying "a bag of sand" is enough to cover me. Another example of how this is hard and unnecessary to do is I personally don't know how many pinches of dung there are in a cow pat (or for that matter how many hairs were in that handful I grabbed before I hightailed it out of there) (I am referencing Bulls strength). If my DM cared, I'd think he was crazy.

[vitkiraven]

Be my guest! I want to stress though that my HR is only used when someone does bring up spell component pouches as being the bottleneck to a casters power (it really isn't). In lower level games, it encourages roleplay as they remember to make a trip to the magic shop, at higher levels, its 45gp max, they won't miss it.

Given that someone whines about it though, I find it is a decent fix as a DM and a player to either of them having to remember whether they/I acquired 3 balls of bat guano, or 4 for the day. Plus even by RAW it is difficult to keep track of priceless components. Color spray lists "red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand" which is such a vague requirement, and one that will become difficult to keep track of since there is no ruling on how much is used per casting, so I have no idea if buying "a bag of sand" is enough to cover me. Another example of how this is hard and unnecessary to do is I personally don't know how many pinches of dung there are in a cow pat (or for that matter how many hairs were in that handful I grabbed before I hightailed it out of there) (I am referencing Bulls strength). If my DM cared, I'd think he was crazy.
Yeah, the non-exotic stuff is really just fine, I mean a ranger in the party can probably nab a few each day with some survival rolls, but still, to keep 240 crysal rods with fur in a small belt pouch is a bit odd. Why I liked Auroras (this got updated/stolen to a third party publisher's equipment book too). It did give a price for damn near every spell component. And the cheap easy stuff? Maybe the other party members found some and can remember where it was. Natural stuff is easier to find. Created or manufactured items? Much less likely to just come across, and looting an npc spell component bandoleer becomes a worthwhile activty, and can quickly let you know if there were any other tricks up their sleeve that you might be able to learn. :smallbiggrin:

[maysarahs]

to keep 240 crysal rods with fur in a small belt pouch is a bit odd.

To be honest, I always thought the rules assumed you'd replenish them whenever you stopped by a store. "You have enough material components to cast spells till you get to a town" is my philosophy when DMing. By introducing an upkeep cost all I really do is "force" this roleplay on them. This counting of crystal rods in my eyes is really just counting the number of times someone casts a specific spell. I really have no interest, and by assuming they do replenish them, they don't have to care. If I really wanted a limited spellcasting based encounter, there are better ways to do it than by making them keep track of how many times they can cast a spell before they run out of a resource that isn't even governed by the rules. That would be similar to taking the spells per day mechanic and expanding it to " times this specific spell can be cast per plot resting point"

My apologies if I am not coherent or organized, exam tomorrow, this is just a quick study break/ procrastination

[vitkiraven]

To be honest, I always thought the rules assumed you'd replenish them whenever you stopped by a store. "You have enough material components to cast spells till you get to a town" is my philosophy when DMing. By introducing an upkeep cost all I really do is "force" this roleplay on them. This counting of crystal rods in my eyes is really just counting the number of times someone casts a specific spell. I really have no interest, and by assuming they do replenish them, they don't have to care. If I really wanted a limited spellcasting based encounter, there are better ways to do it than by making them keep track of how many times they can cast a spell before they run out of a resource that isn't even governed by the rules. That would be similar to taking the spells per day mechanic and expanding it to " times this specific spell can be cast per plot resting point"

My apologies if I am not coherent or organized, exam tomorrow, this is just a quick study break/ procrastination

It's fine and coherent, no problems. What I'm focusing on, is RAW, only one spell component pouch needs ever be purchased, and as long as the item doesn't have a listed cost (which a LOT of the components should have, from the description of the component alone), it not only fits, but will be there, from first level. A 20th level wizard casting a 9th level spell could reach into the spell component pouch of a random first level apprentice, or even worse, one at "Ye Olde Wal-Market" and automatically have the spell component that he needs, without any preparation or magic on the pouches end. Strains a bit of disbelief on my end. But if its not a problem, it isn't an issue for others campaign worlds.




On the OP did the DM have a specific reason for this line of thinking?

[Strormer]

A houserule I sometimes use that keeps things "realistic" is that any time a player wizard enters a town they must refill their spell component pouch at a price = 5gp* the highest level spell they cast. It will always be trivial, and much more a flavor point than a mechanic (they could just avoid towns, though if they are misers (:smallconfused:) and start gaming the system, I consider the pouch empty upon level up) but it keeps the people who think this should be necessary quiet while retaining the RAW lack of hassle for casters.

This is great, just for RP purposes. I think I'll steal this myself.


Spell components become interesting when the party's out in the wilderness and the spell component pouch goes missing. (It could be as simple as a raccoon sniffing out the edible components inside, and making off with the thing.) That's a perfectly reasonable random encounter, with pretty interesting consequences as you try to assemble pinches of soot, live crickets, and whatnot.

Best
Encounter
Ever
I can just see the greatsword fighter trying to smash a raccoon that's running around with a pouch while the wizard screams about his components and threatens the fighter if anything is damaged. :smallbiggrin:

[hewhosaysfish]

I can just see the greatsword fighter trying to smash a raccoon that's running around with a pouch while the wizard screams about his components and threatens the fighter if anything is damaged. :smallbiggrin:

Don't forget the raccoon and the wizard's familiar having a small furry animal duel.

[Killer Angel]

What I'm focusing on, is RAW, only one spell component pouch needs ever be purchased, and as long as the item doesn't have a listed cost (which a LOT of the components should have, from the description of the component alone), it not only fits, but will be there, from first level. A 20th level wizard casting a 9th level spell could reach into the spell component pouch of a random first level apprentice, or even worse, one at "Ye Olde Wal-Market" and automatically have the spell component that he needs, without any preparation or magic on the pouches end. Strains a bit of disbelief on my end.

It can be unrealistic, but I'm fine with it. Keeping track of not costly components it's boring, and I'm glad to skip it entirely.
If we follow this kind of reasoning, very soon we'll have the question "shouldn't we control the efficiency of the fighter's armor after each combat? I don't believe that hit by the stone giant's boulder would leave the armor intact."

[vitkiraven]

It can be unrealistic, but I'm fine with it. Keeping track of not costly components it's boring, and I'm glad to skip it entirely.
If we follow this kind of reasoning, very soon we'll have the question "shouldn't we control the efficiency of the fighter's armor after each combat? I don't believe that hit by the stone giant's boulder would leave the armor intact."

Actually, I can fully see where this might head to, as an ultimate point, which is why I referenced requiring armor maintenance kits for said armored characters. It's not a major thing, a less than 5 gold, and it allows/ reminds players that they can be doing something in their down time that might end up earning roleplaying experience. Most of said groups also had at least one character who had craft armorsmithing as well. But again, if some other person finds that they prefer to not deal with it, that's their experience. Again, YMMV.

[vitkiraven]

I can just see the greatsword fighter trying to smash a raccoon that's running around with a pouch while the wizard screams about his components and threatens the fighter if anything is damaged. :smallbiggrin:


Don't forget the raccoon and the wizard's familiar having a small furry animal duel.

That's an outstanding idea you both had there! Thank you!

EXCELLENT lead in to an encounter with an enemy druid!


The great warrior Baldomeer, having been chastised for attempting to slay the vicious raccoon with his great sword was sullen, and he watched the fracas between the true combatants of this stage, the wily raccoon, and the wizard's feisty feline familiar, Snuggles. Ensuring that the raccoon didn't get, but leaving wide berth, the entire party surrounded the ensuing melee.

Snuggles deftly dodged a bite from the raccoon, as he swiped a paw across the face of his foe. Snuggles saw an evil look of intelligence cross the eyes of the raccoon. Snuggles was only now realizing that unless he acted quickly, the raccoon might just be the victor in this battle, as it was directing the flow of combat, not him.

The fight had gone on for a minute or so, when Baldomeer realized something, this Raccoon was using tactics in a manner similar to a war trained animal. A wild animal wouldn't have had this training, where did it learn to fight like that? He thought about informing the rest of his companions, but after the panning he received about his intelligence when he tried to get the raccoon first, maybe he should just stay quiet on this one.

The battle raged on, between the two furry duelists, with a nip here, and a claw there, neither side gaining much purchase. Slowly, Snuggles thought he saw an opening, and took his attack. The raccoon, had baited him, oh no! He pounced at the raccoon, ready to issue the killing bite, but the raccoon had expected him to do so, and used the pounce, and everyone's attention on the cat, to rush off, and run between the Wizard's legs, and off into the wilderness with his new prize. It would be a good day with all his new shinies and interesting nummy things.