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DefKab
2011-11-12, 10:42 PM
Say I wanted to design a system that does two things very well:
(1) Allows for a wide variety for character creation. Meaning that the universe is inclusive, such as DnD 3.5, characters and monsters are built following the same rule set.

And (2) Handles At Range Modern combat well. We'll even go the whole spectrum of combat, but I'd like Guns to feel polished.

What would you, the playground, suggest as for implementation of this system?

What games would you look to for inspiration for rule sets?

What things do you feel would make or break a system (anything)?

Lets set a few definites, though it's not a limitation. Lets say I definitely want Aliens in this system, a wide variety, representing several tiers of clearly defined power.

I can look at Warhammer. They have Rogue Trader, and Death Watch. Humanity stretches from lame to Space Marine. Would this be a good game to look at? I hear that it has some innate power issues, though I couldn't see them myself, and don't have the luxury of playing it.

What about a class system? It's a staple of RPGs, but can I work without one, or would a mechanical goal be a good thing?

I'm looking for everything, from cool ideas to even specifics. Should I use a Dice Pool system to have a fairer chance between successes and failures, or do you like the static progression of a single die?

Consider that you have a Guardsmen next to a Space Marine... Should I enact rules that'll let a guardsmen get the one lucky die roll that could kill even the Space Marine? Or should I let Impossible be Impossible?

So, let it rip Playground. What's good? What's bad? Can we even DO new?

Mando Knight
2011-11-12, 10:53 PM
(1) Allows for a wide variety for character creation. Meaning that the universe is inclusive, such as DnD 3.5, characters and monsters are built following the same rule set.
This actually doesn't follow. There might be some correlation, but it's quite possible to have an at least halfway decent system that uses different creation rules for PCs and monsters. With all the special abilities that monsters often get even in systems like 3.5, you could very well end up with creatures with rather arbitrary statistics, like a flying, spellcasting tank that spits fire but never took an option available to the PCs in order to get those abilities.

Even a full point-buy system you can end up with GM arbitration on special abilities, particularly if there's something the rules didn't include already that the character/monster/whatever needs.

DefKab
2011-11-12, 11:08 PM
This actually doesn't follow. There might be some correlation, but it's quite possible to have an at least halfway decent system that uses different creation rules for PCs and monsters. With all the special abilities that monsters often get even in systems like 3.5, you could very well end up with creatures with rather arbitrary statistics, like a flying, spellcasting tank that spits fire but never took an option available to the PCs in order to get those abilities.

Even a full point-buy system you can end up with GM arbitration on special abilities, particularly if there's something the rules didn't include already that the character/monster/whatever needs.

Mmhmm... Mhmm. I understand, and agree. The major goal I'm trying to achieve is say you're playing the Los Angeles Police Department against the sudden emergence of cult demons in LA. Obviously, the game is going to be balance to your character, or else you win too easily, or don't have a prayer.

The goal is that two days later, you can switch, and, using the same rule set, become the demons to harass the LAPD up and down California.

I completely agree, somethings can have exceptions.

Which brings up a few more questions:
What about the idea of fluctuating mechanics? Everything having a base system, and other things "add" new mechanics to it, such as turning a flat roll into a dice pool, while other negate the opposed roll normally given?

Can we come up with something that would allow for completely different things that even FEELS different when playing?

Or is that way too much complication to begin to think about.


One thing I've learn is to NEVER underestimate how much slog a gamer is willing to go through for a satisfying rule set.

Beleriphon
2011-11-12, 11:35 PM
I'm going to suggest D20 Modern. It works pretty well for what you seem to want, a kind of action movie feel. Firearms are not super balanced (people hate the shotguns in the game) but they work and with some feats/talents you can get things to pretty accurately match the real world workings for most guns.

The nice thing with D20 Modern is the six basic classes can all be cops, of some kind, and all of them work well with the profession mechanic that represents what the character did before the game starts. Heck, there's even one called Police Officer, but functionally anything could work here.

DefKab
2011-11-12, 11:47 PM
I'm going to suggest D20 Modern. It works pretty well for what you seem to want, a kind of action movie feel. Firearms are not super balanced (people hate the shotguns in the game) but they work and with some feats/talents you can get things to pretty accurately match the real world workings for most guns.

The nice thing with D20 Modern is the six basic classes can all be cops, of some kind, and all of them work well with the profession mechanic that represents what the character did before the game starts. Heck, there's even one called Police Officer, but functionally anything could work here.

Well, I don't really have a want besides the first two points, and I'm mostly asking for player preferences...

So, D20 Modern has pretty good weapon rules, despite the whole damage vs. Hitpoints problem? Or do you not see it as a problem?

Is hit points a good measure of toughness? What else could be used? The Wounds system from Deadlands?

Maybe not even a static damage recorder? Could we do something where every hit requires a roll that could determine result? Sure, a bullet to the chest could hut, but not be debilitating, while a shoulder shot might not kill you, but you might ignore everything but the pain... Any ideas?

Dingle
2011-11-13, 07:09 AM
Mmhmm... Mhmm. I understand, and agree. The major goal I'm trying to achieve is say you're playing the Los Angeles Police Department against the sudden emergence of cult demons in LA. Obviously, the game is going to be balance to your character, or else you win too easily, or don't have a prayer.

The goal is that two days later, you can switch, and, using the same rule set, become the demons to harass the LAPD up and down California.


Have you taken a look at the new "World of Darkness" (NWOD) yet?

It's pretty much designed for exactly this kind of stuff.
The core rulebook IS humans tryig to survive/deal with the supernatural
AND
Each of the add on supplements ARE "you play a vampire/werewolf/mage/etc in the same world as the core book"

I'm not sure if there's a demon supplement yet, but one of the others is probably pretty close.

DefKab
2011-11-13, 10:20 AM
Have you taken a look at the new "World of Darkness" (NWOD) yet?

It's pretty much designed for exactly this kind of stuff.
The core rulebook IS humans tryig to survive/deal with the supernatural
AND
Each of the add on supplements ARE "you play a vampire/werewolf/mage/etc in the same world as the core book"

I'm not sure if there's a demon supplement yet, but one of the others is probably pretty close.

Alright, so World of Darkness has a good internal system, but how does the combat play? That whole police vs. demons was an example... A situation which shows how internal systems have a lot flexibility...

Once again, I'm trying to see what people's favorite components of a Pen N Paper RPG are in hopes to get a thought of a system that is internal, and does modern combat well.

bibliophile
2011-11-13, 11:30 AM
I'd suggest GURPS. It allows for a wide variety of characters, and handles modern combat well. It does, however, have something of a learning curve.

DefKab
2011-11-13, 11:48 AM
I'd suggest GURPS. It allows for a wide variety of characters, and handles modern combat well. It does, however, have something of a learning curve.

Right, so GURPS is known for being able to do just about anything, using generic points to buy your attributes and abilities...

From what I know, it also uses a 3d6 system to roll under a TN that is adjusted by many things.

So, lets try to get a little elaboration going on...

What do you think is good about GURPS, a must-keep of sorts?

What would you like to drop?

What could we add?

MukkTB
2011-11-13, 01:48 PM
My group would use use D20. But D20 is kinda clunky. The biggest thing with D20 is to realize that the starting classes aren't actually the starting classes. The starting professions are the starting classes and the tough/fast/strong/dedicated/smart/charismatic things are just modifications. D20 actually plays more like a classless system until you get into the prestige classes.

GURPS may very well be better. I've never tried it though.

Dingle
2011-11-13, 01:50 PM
Once again, I'm trying to see what people's favorite components of a Pen N Paper RPG are in hopes to get a thought of a system that is internal, and does modern combat well.

well, nwod is a system where everything is done by the same rolls.
combat's very streamlined compared to the average rpg.
each attack is condensed into one roll, with modifiers for weapons, armour, dodging and so on.
One thing that must be said about combat is that if you want to have more decent options than just: "I attack with my X", you need to have a "fighting style"

If you don't want rolling dice to get in the way of anything else, it's a great system.
but if you like rolling dice, you can still roll for plenty of things.

Very general and comprehensive if you want a modern world with some supernatural stuff.
everything uses the same simple core mechanic.
Nicely organised (the one thing that both sides of the edition war can agree on)
accessible even for people afraid of maths more complicated than addition.

DefKab
2011-11-13, 02:00 PM
well, nwod is a system where everything is done by the same rolls.
combat's very streamlined compared to the average rpg.
each attack is condensed into one roll, with modifiers for weapons, armour, dodging and so on.
One thing that must be said about combat is that if you want to have more decent options than just: "I attack with my X", you need to have a "fighting style"

If you don't want rolling dice to get in the way of anything else, it's a great system.
but if you like rolling dice, you can still roll for plenty of things.

Very general and comprehensive if you want a modern world with some supernatural stuff.
everything uses the same simple core mechanic.
Nicely organised (the one thing that both sides of the edition war can agree on)
accessible even for people afraid of maths more complicated than addition.

So, you like combat to be quick and smooth, and easy to do.
However, I'm worried that nWoD is a game mostly comprised of a rich and detailed story. The point of the game is to play the story.

I don't have a story, so what about when the point of the game is for the combat mechanics. Would nWoD still perform, or be lacking in detail?

GungHo
2011-11-13, 02:24 PM
No. WoD can be "roll"-played. However, Storyteller does have some scale issues... when dice pools get very large, things can get a little cumbersome. nWod is better than oWoD with that... in oWoD, you were almost penalized for large pools because of the way failure and critical failure worked. If you're "just a guy", though, you won't be dealing with the extreme pools a high-"level" vampire might deal with.

DefKab
2011-11-13, 03:04 PM
No. WoD can be "roll"-played. However, Storyteller does have some scale issues... when dice pools get very large, things can get a little cumbersome. nWod is better than oWoD with that... in oWoD, you were almost penalized for large pools because of the way failure and critical failure worked. If you're "just a guy", though, you won't be dealing with the extreme pools a high-"level" vampire might deal with.

Alright... So, found that nWoD doesn't work with variable power levels, getting cumbersome at high levels...

So, again, I'm trying to break away from a WHOLE SYSTEM and try to look at the parts... What could nWoD have done differently to make it better?

Seriously people. A game system is a sum of the parts, not a singular unit... Lets break it down a little...

Erom
2011-11-13, 03:31 PM
To break it down a little- let's talk about range + movement under the FATE system.

FATE systems have really fun, cool character generation. But they use "zone-based" rather than grid based movement. Basically, each "area" is a Zone, and movement is done between Zones. Indoors, each room being a Zone usually works pretty well - melee attacks can be made between any two characters in the same zone, and ranged attacks can hit anywhere from 1 (a thrown weapon) to many (sniper rifles are like range 6?) zones away.

This system sucks for ranged combat.

Due to the variability of movement (zones can be different sized, and you roll dice to add/subtract to movement every time) it's entirely possible to build a totally normal everyday human that can, about 30% of the time, get hit by a sniper rifle bullet and (if they survive - FATE tends to be pretty lethal) run up and punch the shooter in a single round.

Due to the natural constraints of the table (trying to keep ranges small so as to fit on the typical battle mat) most systems have movement speeds that are too large compared with their firearm ranges.

So as a subsystem, I think Zone based movement is bad for systems that also want long range weapons.

DefKab
2011-11-13, 05:33 PM
To break it down a little- let's talk about range + movement under the FATE system.

FATE systems have really fun, cool character generation. But they use "zone-based" rather than grid based movement. Basically, each "area" is a Zone, and movement is done between Zones. Indoors, each room being a Zone usually works pretty well - melee attacks can be made between any two characters in the same zone, and ranged attacks can hit anywhere from 1 (a thrown weapon) to many (sniper rifles are like range 6?) zones away.

This system sucks for ranged combat.

Due to the variability of movement (zones can be different sized, and you roll dice to add/subtract to movement every time) it's entirely possible to build a totally normal everyday human that can, about 30% of the time, get hit by a sniper rifle bullet and (if they survive - FATE tends to be pretty lethal) run up and punch the shooter in a single round.

Due to the natural constraints of the table (trying to keep ranges small so as to fit on the typical battle mat) most systems have movement speeds that are too large compared with their firearm ranges.

So as a subsystem, I think Zone based movement is bad for systems that also want long range weapons.


There we go. So, FATE has a good example of a discriptive and imaginative movement system that has the small downside of not being anywhere near realistic.

Are their anythings from FATE that you would take, despite the movement?

And what, do you think, we could do to adjust the movement?

If we keep the 'zone' movement type, it would feel narrative, but lacks the definition of a tactical field. Could we cut down the size of a 'zone' but keep it from feeling like a stifling grid field?

Dingle
2011-11-15, 01:08 PM
So, you like combat to be quick and smooth, and easy to do.
However, I'm worried that nWoD is a game mostly comprised of a rich and detailed story. The point of the game is to play the story.

Not quite, I like a unified core mechanic that's used for everything.
And that everything generally follows the same rules.
NWOD just happens to be quick and smooth and easy as well, and none of those are bad.



However, I'm worried that nWoD is a game mostly comprised of a rich and detailed story. The point of the game is to play the story.

I don't have a story, so what about when the point of the game is for the combat mechanics. Would nWoD still perform, or be lacking in detail?

Having some sort of story certainly helps.

If you're running a simple dungeon crawl comprised entirely of traps and completely random encounters, people might start getting bored of thier combat styles (1-6 options, generally, depending on initial expenditure)

It's also designed to give extra options to the players and major npcs in the form of templates, powers, and weakesses, which adds a good bit of depth on top of the quick and simple base system.

But in a modern setting, you're generally not going to have a "generic" dungeon, it'll have some reason why it exists, and also a reason why the pcs are there, and with some spare npcs, charachter goals and some active players you have a great story.

the points where I'd stop recommending NWOD, and start recommending something more general like GURPS are:
1: "Call of duty": the RPG,
2: "Joe commoner" is NOT a person you would find in the real world (although pcs and important NPCs can be anything).
3: there is more than 1 fight per campaign with something bus-sized or larger
4: you require vehicle (including sea/space) combat more complicated than a drive-by shooting



No. WoD can be "roll"-played. However, Storyteller does have some scale issues... when dice pools get very large, things can get a little cumbersome. nWod is better than oWoD with that... in oWoD, you were almost penalized for large pools because of the way failure and critical failure worked. If you're "just a guy", though, you won't be dealing with the extreme pools a high-"level" vampire might deal with.
I disagree with this. That only happened in the most exceptional of circumstances, for tasks marked "impossible" (maximum difficulty), and was remedied in the revised version of the rules.
And what actually happened was that the chances of success kept on going up, but the chances of catastrophic failure happened to be exactly the same as the ones for success.

It'd be stuff like boarding a fast moving train:
fat slow man gets tired before he gets close to the train speed.
Mr Olympian gets to top sprinting speed, turns to the train, jumps and reaches out, and one of 2 things happen:
he catches it
he misses, falling flat on his face at sprinting speed


when dice pools get very large, things can get a little cumbersome.
There's rules in most editions to give a basic success without rolling if it's close to guaranteed.



So, again, I'm trying to break away from a WHOLE SYSTEM and try to look at the parts... What could nWoD have done differently to make it better?

Seriously people. A game system is a sum of the parts, not a singular unit... Lets break it down a little...
One of the things that I like about WOD is that the whole system is comprised of maybe 6 parts, max.

1: core mechanic: simple and easy, not bad
2: skill list: good for modern with decent amount of social stuff
3: morality system: something not found everywhere, gives a choice and another level of depth.
4: combat styles: I'd have preferred to have all options open to everyone, but it helps balance combat (by having different costs for different maneuvers, they can make them more powerful than "situational") and makes things faster and simpler
5: templates: add considerably more depth and options, and are generally well done.
6: fluff: tons of it and ideas and backstories and plots everywhere.

I'd claim gurps has 2
1: roll 3d6, under target number
2: absolutely everything else, take what you want... :smalltongue:

Velaryon
2011-11-15, 02:00 PM
In my own experience, D20 Modern's firearms rules are terrible, especially at higher levels. Combats can drag on forever as HP scales up with level, but your guns still do a piddly 2d6 or whatever damage. I'm not familiar with every D20 Modern sourcebook, but from what I've seen the only major ways to add damage are feats like Burst Fire and Double Tap, which don't go far enough to solve the problem. Add in that you add no fixed bonuses (like how melee still adds Strength), and it just makes for totally unsatisfying combat. It's entirely possible, and indeed fairly likely, for characters of double-digit levels to do single-digit damage in combat, which is completely unacceptable because it actually makes them less effective at combat against level-appropriate challenges than they used to be.

For a look at how firearms combat can be done better in the D20 system, I suggest Star Wars Saga edition. All the guns are doing three dice of damage instead of two (well, blasters do three, slugthrowers do two), and you add half your level to your damage regardless of what kind of weapon you use. On top of that, there are significantly more and better choices to make firearms combat workable and worthwhile.

The vast majority of my gaming experience is in D20, so I really can't speak on other systems well enough to be helpful.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-15, 04:36 PM
Well, I don't really have a want besides the first two points, and I'm mostly asking for player preferences...

So, D20 Modern has pretty good weapon rules, despite the whole damage vs. Hitpoints problem? Or do you not see it as a problem?

Is hit points a good measure of toughness? What else could be used? The Wounds system from Deadlands?

It's...it's ok. D20M is aright if you've want D&D with a modern twist to it, but certain aspects of it are troubling to anyone with even a passing familiarity with guns or game balance. For instance, shotguns are basically useless. The wealth system is also terrible, though I suppose that could be ripped out and replaced with a more standard currency system.

I've got a roll and keep system under progress for addressing this sort of thing. I'd be willing to write up what I got if you'd like to test it, play with it a bit. If you've played other D10 roll and keep systems, it'll be fairly intuitive, but for someone straight from D&D, it's a wee bit different.

The Boz
2011-11-15, 08:46 PM
I worked on my on in the last two or so years, while making a PnP Deus Ex RPG. It's... kind of a mixture of D&D and GURPS.
The key element that keeps it both "realistic" and attractive from a gameplay perspective is the lack of natural health progression. I don't have classes or levels, everything is XP buy, and it has worked out pretty good in play tests so far.

Altair_the_Vexed
2011-11-16, 09:21 AM
Cyberpunk 2020 (aka Interlock, IIRC) combat rules are fast and gritty, and quite sensible.
You need to get into good cover, and a single shot will very likely drop average characters. Being taken out of the fight doesn't necessarily carry over into the next fight, especially with medical attention.
(Highly cyber-enhanced super soldiers will walk through hails of bullets and ignore it, however.)

The rest of the game is a daft 80s-style miss-match mess, but the combat system is good.

jaybird
2011-11-16, 10:55 AM
I like the Warhammer Roleplay system for combat - simulates modern combat quite well. Re-fluff Fear Checks into Shell Shock Checks and you have something that can easily be made into CoD: the RPG.

Eric Tolle
2011-11-18, 01:26 AM
For modern combat, it really depends on which direction you want to go: cinematic, abstract, gritty, tactical are all possible combinations. I can do abstract, cinematic combat with PDQ (add applicable traits to get your success chance, hits knock down traits and cause plot complications), or detailed, "realistic" combat with Albedo (no hit points, hit points causing a chance of various kinds of effects, blood loss causing fatigue, unconsciousness, even death). It depends on what you're looking for.

If you're looking to use the same system for monsters as heroes, then that narrows your choices to generic systems. On the abstract side there's systems like PDQ, Risus and and FATE, and on the more complex and "realistic", there's GURPS, Hero, Mutants & Masterminds. Pick your poison.

Darkomn
2011-11-18, 02:59 AM
A big problem with modern combat(guns and the like) is that standard dnd style turns don't work as well, something like more like burning wheels combat where you plan out 3 mini turns in advance, that way it feels less like you are standing around getting shot when its not your turn.
Also for inspiration combat in Brothers in Arms (the older ones if you can get them) is layed out in a pretty formulaic about how combats work could provide you with some ideas.

Cespenar
2011-11-18, 09:42 AM
I'm not getting the d20 Modern hate regarding the low damages. Guys, damage threshold = Con score. Con of 14, you get dealt 15 damage? Fort save or you're down to -1, even if you had 200 hp. That said, the DC is static and kinda low (15), but still, you'll eventually fail that save, probably before running out of actual hitpoints.

For a quick and dirty fix, make the DC = damage dealt and you're golden.

DefKab
2011-11-18, 12:13 PM
Now we're getting into the vein of what I wanted.

For sake of argument, lets say I wanted to develope a tactical, realistic, highly lethal system, what game elements would you suggest?

You've intrigued me with Burning Wheels planning multiple turns. Can anyone explain more about that feature?

And lets discuss Albedo a little, too. How does the damage system work? Is it managable?

In contrast, what about Deadlands wounds system?

Is a Deadlands-esque fate system a good idea? To reinforce the idea that you're only alive due to unnatural luck?

And finally, would you view a squad based system doable? Or best left to the reigns of Mini wargames? If you know it, think of XCom, but with much smaller number.

Darkomn
2011-11-18, 01:49 PM
Well I haven't got the chance to play it yet but basically each turn you write down 3 actions like parry, stab, move, and then everyone's actions happen at the same time. Say if I wrote down parry,stab,parry and my opponent wrote down stab,stab,stab I would try to block his first attack, then we would each hit each other, then I would try to block his third attack, I think there are some more complicated actions then those like counter-attack or feint but you get the idea. If you want a closer look I think the rulebook is pretty cheap (~USD20)
So to make it work it would be more like duck under cover,popup and shoot, spray around a corner, reload, cook grenade.

DefKab
2011-11-18, 06:51 PM
Well I haven't got the chance to play it yet but basically each turn you write down 3 actions like parry, stab, move, and then everyone's actions happen at the same time. Say if I wrote down parry,stab,parry and my opponent wrote down stab,stab,stab I would try to block his first attack, then we would each hit each other, then I would try to block his third attack, I think there are some more complicated actions then those like counter-attack or feint but you get the idea. If you want a closer look I think the rulebook is pretty cheap (~USD20)
So to make it work it would be more like duck under cover,popup and shoot, spray around a corner, reload, cook grenade.

That's pretty nice...

However, how would that be much different from Battletech, where you declare your movements, and your attacks, in one turn?

Darkomn
2011-11-20, 10:35 PM
That's pretty nice...

However, how would that be much different from Battletech, where you declare your movements, and your attacks, in one turn?

Don't know never played Battletech :smallbiggrin:

DefKab
2011-11-20, 11:00 PM
Don't know never played Battletech :smallbiggrin:

Ha, what I meant is that even in Battletech, where every turn was planned out ahead of time, it still felt like you stood around to get shot by another person...

I'll definitely look into Burning Wheels for some inspiration.

I still want to hear about really cool systems with innovative mechanics.

Knaight
2011-11-21, 12:30 AM
Take a look at Burning Empires. Like Burning Wheel, it has a clash of plans that lead to chaos in combat, however, it is set up for firefights. There is manuevering, flanking, taking cover, suppression fire, so on and so forth, and it handles all of it well.