The Extreme Range and Damage Sniper Build. 3.5

[TurtleKing]

Alright this is not the armed mole from whach-o-mole. So no Rogues or other shoot than hide.

The emphasis is first range as in I can shoot at you farther than a minute of running will get you. Might even increase that to 2 or 3 minutes. Translation is hitting target upwards of thousands of feet away. The second emphasis is damage as high as possible without breaking out the Munster. Sharp Cheddar is fine. Before you say fire multiple times the Sniper is based on as few shots as possible.

So far Cragtop Archer is pivotal especially the 4th level ability Horizon Shot. Not including that will get a Wtf? Next up does Far Shot feat and Distance weapon enchantment combine so both works or does one override the other? Either way taking both as Far Shot is available sooner.

I do have a good bit of a build thought up just looking for anything else. Will post that later. Also want to know what would be a good gestalt version of this?

Lastly is an adaptation on the Sniper Build is the Death Satelite. Main difference is the race is Raptoran.

[Flickerdart]

Daisy-chain Project Images for nigh-unlimited range. With CL30 (not very difficult to get) and Enlarge Spell you're looking at 18,000 feet.

[TurtleKing]

How does that affect shooting an arrow?

[TroubleBrewing]

You use one Project Image to see through the next. Hence, daisy-chain.

It affects shooting because you can't shoot what you can't see. There are ways of getting nigh-unlimited range, but you can't use them past where you can see. This fixes that.

[Flickerdart]

How does that affect shooting an arrow?
Quite simply (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm).

[Heliomance]

What level are we talking? Because at 18th level, Dragonwrought Kobold will let you pick up Distant Shot, removing your max range and all range penalties.

[Gandariel]

think about doing it from sky.
you float at thousands of feet from land, use something (the aforementioned spell) to see AND aim, and rain death. Maybe use an illusion under you for social interactions.

[Eldariel]

For martial base, something like Ranger 2/Fighter (Targeteer) 4/Barbarian 1/Deepwood Sniper 7/Cragtop Archer 3/Peerless Archer 3.

So far we have:
1. PBS, Weapon Focus (Flaw), Education (Flaw)
2. Rapid Shot (Ranger bonus)
3. Precise Shot, Arrow Swarm (Targetteer)
4. Sniper (Targetteer)
6. Mountain Warrior, Far Shot (Fighter)
9. Knowledge Devotion
12. Weapon Specialization
15. Quick Draw
18. Ranged Weapon Mastery


Basically cram out those 12-20/x5 crit shots once/round. Can True Strike to negate Power Shot for 20 penalties. Max range is 15 increments at -15. Barbarian gives you Whirling Frenzy for some extra damage and +1 crit range. Race is obviously something with decent Int (need some to max out bonuses from Knowledge Devotion and get qualifications too).

Range is 130' (Composite Greatbow) + 20' (Ranged Weapon Mastery) + 70' (Deepwood Sniper * 1.5 Far Shot. Then we can add on Distance and Dragonbone, 20' more from Dragonbone and 2* more from Far Shot. There's spells but we're not gonna cast those (since we can't). We could increase size at 1.25 times per size but whatevs. We already have 240' * 3.5 = 840'. Then we can shoot 15 times that, or 12600' away.

Now then, we have x5 crit modifier from Deepwood Sniper. And base crit range 19-20 from Keen Arrows of Deepwood Sniper. Then we can use Sniper from Targetteer to give up 1 attack for +1 crit range. We have 4 attacks from BAB, 1 from Rapid Shot, 2 from Arrow Swarm, 1 from Haste (Boots of Speed) and 1 from Whirling Frenzy occasionally. Without Frenzy, we can give up 7 attacks. 12-20/x5. Not ideal, but it's hard to get more with a 20/x3 weapon. You can always just cast Hunter's Mercy off a Wand when you need a guaranteed critical, after all.


Then you can deal 1d10+~10 Str+4 RWM+5 Knowledge Devotion+20 Power Shot damage. Plus any weapon enhancements, of course. Base crits are thus for about 220, or so. Now, To Hit naturally suffers; we have -5 Arrow Swarm, -2 Rapid Shot and possible -2 from Whirling Frenzy. Power Shot would be up to -20 and then we might have range increments to deal with too (though only at -1 per increment). Base To Hit is +20 BAB, +13 Dex, +3 RWM, +5 KDev or +38 or so. Then you get tons of magical modifiers. Fact is that if one wants to land those longrange shots with max Power Shot tho, it prolly requires True Strike.

[TurtleKing]

Well that sounds great and all and might call that a UberSniper build except for not always hitting the target unless you wand a True Strike or similar… Yea see Snipers are known for high damage at extreme ranges that always hit their mark.

Guess should have said to try to build one not using 3.0 or Dragon Mags.

To me you have 3 classes that could get in with a few more that could also just not as great. The Ranger, Fighter, and Psy Warrior. Ranger is the easiest to pull this off as the spells and more could make a fast entry into Cragtop Archer doing this sooner. Fighter and Psy Warrior get in later due to CC skills yet bring their own talents. Psy Warrior might take the longest since having to regain psionic focus to add +4d6 damage a shot or make it a ranged touch attack. Fighter on the other hand can fire each round and abundance of feats helps due to being feat intensive. Ranger depending on spells and such may be a little slower than the Fighter.

Yes I am making a character doing this. So far a Human Planar Ranger//Fighter/Cragtop Archer level 15. This way can fire often and hit hard. So far I have +29 to hit thanks full BAB, +6 Dex mod, Bracers of Archery for another +2, +4 enhancement, and Greater Weapon Focus. Damage with Force enhancement on the Composite +4 Greatbow dealing 1d10+11 force damage. So far that is on a regular hit. If a favored enemy then could add some more and grab Hunting and Improved Favored Enemy could add upwards of +15 to damage. Cast a spell might even make that higher. Still working out the feats so these numbers could go even higher

So while the Greatbow allows considerable damage by firing alot another the Great Crossbow allows high damaging hits while not shooting often. Yes takes time though dealing 2d8 with a 18-20 crit range more likely to crit. Another benefit is not having to be so MAD as STR can be lower. Which is great considering my guy has an 8 CON without enhancement. So yes this is a Glass Railgun.

[TroubleBrewing]

... You're offhandedly dismissing ~220/hit at a range of over two miles in exchange for 1d10+11 with the possibility of stretching that another 2d6+15?

[TurtleKing]

That is because trying to stay with what a DM is more likely to allow. Not all DMs just say yes to Dragon Mags as well using 3.0 for the crit stacking or such.

[TroubleBrewing]

That is because trying to stay with what a DM is more likely to allow. Not all DMs just say yes to Dragon Mags as well using 3.0 for the crit stacking or such.

I'm reasonably certain the only DrMag material is Targeteer Fighter, and AFAIK there isn't any 3.0 material either.

[DeAnno]

Youll probably actually have the most luck (in gestalt at least) with some build combining Arcane Archer, Full Arcane Casting, and a bunch of Fighter for feats. Imbue Arrow + dreadfully metamagicked spell is gonna let you fling something extremely damaging at extreme range.

[TroubleBrewing]

Arcane Archer is terribad.

[DeAnno]

Arcane Archer is terribad.

Not in gestalt, it isn't. You just fill in the lost casting on the other side, and boom, you now have super duper range.

[TurtleKing]

I tend to only go to mid optimisation.

So does Far Shot feat and Distance stack? If so is it 2.5 times or 3.5 times?

Edit: DM has said each side is isolated? As for one thing can't progress a class on one side then switch it over to the other side. Not to mention I really don't like having to rely on magic just to be viable. I like having a mostly martial Sniper.

[Little Brother]

What level are we talking? Because at 18th level, Dragonwrought Kobold will let you pick up Distant Shot, removing your max range and all range penalties.And a monk can pick it up at level one.

Also, as JaronK pointed out to me, a dip in Binder.

But you're not gonna wanna go with the 4th level in Cragtop Archer. One attack? Nuh-uh, not enough damage to be worth it. You can do maybe 50-60 damage, a bit more more if you really try, but more attacks are better. 2nd level of Cragtop Archer+10 levels of Deepwood Sniper(or whatever it's called. Normally SO awful, but in this case, you want range), the Distance enhancement, and Far Shot. A footbow has a range of 150, IIRC, so +100 from ten levels of Deepwood Sniper and two levels of Cragtop Archer, you'll be looking at 11250 foot range. With the Splitting enhancement, a level of Barbarian, and that one tactical feat that gives you +4 to hit for each miss, you should be hitting enough by the end, from over 2 miles away. Take a dip in Mystic Ranger for Hunter's Mercy, 2 levels of Targeteer Fighter, and an Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) added on to the footbow, you could tear most things apart.

Remember, mo' dakka. itz why Orkz iz da best:smalltongue:.

[Heliomance]

And a monk can pick it up at level one.


How? It's not on a level 1 Monk's options for bonus feats, and it has a prereq of 20 ranks in spot. Also 25 Dex.

[Little Brother]

How? It's not on a level 1 Monk's options for bonus feats, and it has a prereq of 20 ranks in spot. Also 25 Dex.Martial Monk. Absolutely stupid, but it works.

[Heliomance]

What does martial monk get you?

[Flickerdart]

What does martial monk get you?
Fighter bonus feat list instead of the normal one. Except, unlike Fighters, Monks ignore prerequisites when picking.

[Little Brother]

What does martial monk get you?Any fighter bonus feat for your monk bonus feats.

Dragon 310(I'm pretty sure, AFB), by the way.

EDIT: Swordaged! Stupid Cloak of Deception...grumble grumble

[TurtleKing]

One thing the level is 15. Yes gestalt but still. The DM has also banned tier 1s so balance does need to be at least observed.

@Little Brother: Did you read I wanted some optimisation. IN terms of stinky cheese that is so stinky I ma gagging. Also should check some of your gigures as they are wrong. The 3rd level of Cragtop Archer has Arcing Shot for 15*range increment. The Footbow has the same range increment has a Composite Longbow. Now lets see if that range is accurate or not.

Just from Greatbow (130), Distance (*2), Far Shot (*1.5), Ranged Weapon Mastery (+20), Deepwood Sniper (+100), and Cragtop Archer (15 range increments) looking at 6,675. That is considering that was even accurate so how are you getting around twice that? Are taking the base range increment or base+Far Shot then *2 for Distance? If so still coming out to 7,350. Now if Ranged Weapon Mastery goes first raising to 150 before Far Shot and Distance then still looking at 8,250. You know what? A t this point it has become dubious for having to question if the math is right or not as well the whole can you even see that far. For simplicities sake just going (130+20*2)*15. That is because Distance might override Far Shot since being the same kind of enhancement doesn't stack? So end up having 4,500ft.

Now while that above is for one of my characters what presented does help for ones wanting to build a long range heavy hitter. So me going no was in regards to my character. Just make sure the math is correct and is rules legal. Another thing is not everyone can use things from those sources so having a reduced source build is also great.

[Little Brother]

One thing the level is 15. Yes gestalt but still. The DM has also banned tier 1s so balance does need to be at least observed.

@Little Brother: Did you read I wanted some optimisation. IN terms of stinky cheese that is so stinky I ma gagging. Also should check some of your gigures as they are wrong. The 3rd level of Cragtop Archer has Arcing Shot for 15*range increment. The Footbow has the same range increment has a Composite Longbow. Now lets see if that range is accurate or not. Huh. I thought it was 150 ft and second level. Ah, well, still works same way. And this is hardly stinky cheese. It can't hold a candle to a decently build Sorcerer/psion/any caster, really.

Just from Greatbow (130), Distance (*2), Far Shot (*1.5), Ranged Weapon Mastery (+20), Deepwood Sniper (+100), and Cragtop Archer (15 range increments) looking at 6,675. That is considering that was even accurate so how are you getting around twice that? Are taking the base range increment or base+Far Shot then *2 for Distance? If so still coming out to 7,350. Now if Ranged Weapon Mastery goes first raising to 150 before Far Shot and Distance then still looking at 8,250. You know what? A t this point it has become dubious for having to question if the math is right or not as well the whole can you even see that far. For simplicities sake just going (130+20*2)*15. That is because Distance might override Far Shot since being the same kind of enhancement doesn't stack? So end up having 4,500ft. Not the same type of bonus, so they stack. My math(I was off on the range of the footbow, so I was off) 210 x 2 x 1.5 x 15=9450. 10350 if you want the Ranged Weapon Mastery. Not quite two miles, though...Still over mach one. Binder with Improved Binding gives you access to Malphas, who can use his birdie as a spotter.

Now while that above is for one of my characters what presented does help for ones wanting to build a long range heavy hitter. So me going no was in regards to my character. Just make sure the math is correct and is rules legal. Another thing is not everyone can use things from those sources so having a reduced source build is also great.Fixed my math. You should go Raptoran, by the way. The Footbow is SO good. 1.5x Dex with the targeteer fighter? Delicious.

[TurtleKing]

Problem is in a fragmented multiverse plus not knowing if most battles are outside the Death Satelite build that uses Raptoran becomes less viable. Yep to make it function like that you need to be outside which won't always be the case. At least with the Sniper you only need around 30-50ft of clearance to be effective so can still work in an underground cavern.

Another thing is 210? Shouldn't that be 110. So for my case with the Composite +4 Greatbow 130*2*1.5*15=5,850. Ranged Weapon Mastery brings that upto 6,750. Which does put it above one mile. Thanks on the Malphas suggestion will take a look into that considering everything of getting feats every odd level, and such the only levels haven't getting a feat that level are 12 and 14. Build is staying the same for my personal reasons. While an excellent way to handle the sighting aspects that is a 3 feat intensive investment. If anyone can provide an alternative that gives alot within bounds that would be great. As for Ranger spells that could use Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Exacting Shot, and Foebane are some spells to help out.

[Little Brother]

Problem is in a fragmented multiverse plus not knowing if most battles are outside the Death Satelite build that uses Raptoran becomes less viable. Yep to make it function like that you need to be outside which won't always be the case. At least with the Sniper you only need around 30-50ft of clearance to be effective so can still work in an underground cavern.

Another thing is 210? Shouldn't that be 110. So for my case with the Composite +4 Greatbow 130*2*1.5*15=5,850. Ranged Weapon Mastery brings that upto 6,750. Which does put it above one mile. Thanks on the Malphas suggestion will take a look into that considering everything of getting feats every odd level, and such the only levels haven't getting a feat that level are 12 and 14. Build is staying the same for my personal reasons. While an excellent way to handle the sighting aspects that is a 3 feat intensive investment. If anyone can provide an alternative that gives alot within bounds that would be great. As for Ranger spells that could use Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Exacting Shot, and Foebane are some spells to help out.No (110 + 100) x 2 x 1.5 x 15.

And Hunter's Mercy is the best one there.

[TurtleKing]

That would be if went with Deepwood Sniper levels. Though right now not taking those levels. Just how much range is too much?

[Little Brother]

That would be if went with Deepwood Sniper levels. Though right now not taking those levels. Just how much range is too much?You should if you want absurd range

And no amount is too much. You have the birds for spotters, it doesn't matter.

[TurtleKing]

Well I'll look into it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make him level 21, get Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) and a Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense), and only the curvature of the planet will limit your range.

[TurtleKing]

That would be if the campaign even goes that far which likely won't.

[Heliomance]

Already pointed out that Dragonwrought Kobold allows access to Distant Shot at 18, even if you do think that using Martial Monk to get access at level 1 is too much.

[TurtleKing]

Well anyone know of some good items to get?

[Flickerdart]

Dragonbone (Draconomicon) adds 20ft to your range increment, so make your bow from that for only 100gp more. Flight Arrows (A&EG) add another 25 feet, but are pretty expensive at 8gp per arrow.

[Eldariel]

That is because trying to stay with what a DM is more likely to allow. Not all DMs just say yes to Dragon Mags as well using 3.0 for the crit stacking or such.

Well, just use Hunter's Mercy if Sniper (which reduces your average damage over volleys, I might add) isn't available. Level 1 Ranger spell, trivial to get. Add Sword of the Arcane Order [Champions of Valor] and you can Quicken True Strikes too. Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) allows Power Shots so get one of those too. If you want one shot one kill you definitely need to max out damage and get crit through Hunter's Mercy.

Straight Archivist with e.g. Fighter/Ranger or Ranger/Pious Templar/Cragtop Archer on the other side would be obviously amazing at this, with access to all the Ranger-spells but as many spells per day and as fast a spell level growth as with an actual spellcaster. And useful class features to boot. By far the best build far as damage and range goes since you can learn Druid's Wind Tunnel, all the Cleric-buffs and all that too.

Lacking Deepwood Sniper is a pity tho; an exceedingly fair but actually useful (unlike about 70% of the PRCs in the game including all 3.5 Archery PRCs not named Cragtop Archer). The class is just made for this. Ah well. Might want more Fighter-levels if you've come this far to get Weapon Supremacy eventually. Being able to take 10 on your attack means you'll never miss.

[Little Brother]

Make him level 21, get Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) and a Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense), and only the curvature of the planet will limit your range.The earth doesn't actually matter so long as you can see it, IIRC, so the bird on the other side of the planet, while a Kobold/with a dip of Martial Monk to get epic feats, so level 2 or 18, and shoot through the earth(or use the curvature of space/gravity stuffs) to hit something on the other side of the planet. The depressing part? Compared to a lot of epic rules, it makes sense.:smallsigh::smallamused:

[Rejakor]

Off the top of my head;

Greater manyshot + skirmish damage (it's a single attack roll... even if it's fifty arrows hitting at once.. it's still only one attack)

There's a thing that removes the range limitation on an assassin's Death Attack, and lots of items and things that pimp the DC... one shot one kill sniper?

Hank's Force Bow is da bomb

If you're relying on a single shot for base weapon damage + str, at level 15, then you're going to be really bored in a lot of combat rounds as you sit there plinking while other people do real stuff

[TurtleKing]

Oh I don't know a 1d10+1d6+32 force damage depending on situation doesn't sound shabby. Could even get a few crits for 3d10+3d6+96 force damage or something like that. The range could get over 10,000ft away. Well that would if the other players weren't saying no to my character. Considering might have instances of being far off like in a seafaring campaign except planar an extreme range attacker sounds pretty good. I'm sorry if I try to be different than another who is a Soulbow that can fire off about 8 shots?

So fine they get the Death Satelite or my heal you till you pop healbot. Plus to be complacent may take off Cragtop Archer and go for Deepwood Sniper striking things from around 300ft overhead for good damage. Though still don't like machine gunning with multiple shots. So may go with Targetter's Sniper if allowed or Overpowering Attack from PHBII though not available yet.

[Ziegander]

Oh I don't know a 1d10+1d6+32 force damage depending on situation doesn't sound shabby. Could even get a few crits for 3d10+3d6+96 force damage or something like that.

Extra damage is never multiplied on a critical hit. I don't know where that +1d6 is coming from, or the lots of force damage, but neither will get the x3 mod.

[TurtleKing]

The +1d6 is from Plunging Shot. So on a crit actually only 3d10+1d6+32 force damage. Force is because putting the Force enhancement. Doesn't Str mod get multiplied as well on a crit?

[Ziegander]

The +1d6 is from Plunging Shot. So on a crit actually only 3d10+1d6+32 force damage. Force is because putting the Force enhancement. Doesn't Str mod get multiplied as well on a crit?

Strength modifier does, yes. To amend my statement, any "damage modifiers" are multiplied on a crit, but any "extra damage" is not. Does that make sense? For example, if an ability says, "your attacks deal 10 extra damage this turn," then that damage is NOT mulitplied on a crit; however, the morale bonus to damage rolls of a Bard's inspire courage IS multiplied on a crit, because it's a damage modifier. Extra dice are never multiplied (obviously dice cannot be modifiers) Sort of confusing.

[Mikeavelli]

This is only slightly related to the conversation, but my favorite combination of feats, which I've wanted to put into a real character forever..

Take Distant Shot, and Fling Enemy, from Races of Stone.

Fling Enemy, predictably, lets you fling an enemy a certain number of range increments, which Distant Shot removes the restrictions on.

"So, I can throw him at anything within line of sight, right?"

"Yeah...."

"I throw him at the sun."

[ILM]

I actually ran some numbers on a similar build I made recently (I settled with Rogue 10/ Fighter 4/ Ranger 2/ Cragtop Archer 4). Turns out the expected damage output at 15 range increments is higher with Manyshot and no Power Shot, versus a Horizon Shot with full Power Shot. I’m assuming here a Kaorti resin bow for x4 crit multiplier, True Strike cast the previous round, and Hunter’s Mercy as a swift action before firing the arrow. Basically the first option has a -3 to hit compared to the second, but 4 critting arrows more than makes up for the lost Power Shot damage.

[Heliomance]

Strength modifier does, yes. To amend my statement, any "damage modifiers" are multiplied on a crit, but any "extra damage" is not. Does that make sense? For example, if an ability says, "your attacks deal 10 extra damage this turn," then that damage is NOT mulitplied on a crit; however, the morale bonus to damage rolls of a Bard's inspire courage IS multiplied on a crit, because it's a damage modifier. Extra dice are never multiplied (obviously dice cannot be modifiers) Sort of confusing.

Incorrect. Extra static points of damage are always multiplied, extra dice never are.

[TurtleKing]

So does the entire some of it situational get multiplied? Just to be sure here is what they are.

Composite adds +4
Weapon enhancement +4
Ranged Weapon Mastery +2
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater Bracers of Archery +1 This comprises the normal damage output.
Hunting enhancement on favored enemies +4 This starts the situational.
Improved Favored Enemy +3
Enemy Spirit Pouch +2 for 1 Favored Enemy keyed off of
Favored Enemy +2-8 Based on the 3 above Favored Enemy deals an extra +11-17 damage.
Cragtop Archer's Strike From Above +2 if above target
Plunging Shot +1d6 if 30ft above target

So how much of that gets multiplied when critting? On top of that have the Force enhancement from MIC so don't have to worry about damage reduction as all of that is dealt as force damage. Just how optimised is this?

[DoctorGlock]

No love for the ardent?

We use crossbows and manifest dissolving weapon at maximum. Now 50 rounds of ammo are doing about 1d6+1d6/2lvls of bonus acid damage. You can have a gnome crossbow sight and no longer worry about range penalties. Fell shot makes this a ranged touch attack. I'd start with that for my base, then the people better at archery optimization will make this a 4 mile death cannon. Even with low optimization on ranger 2/ardent 10/slayer 8 you end up with BAB 17 and are a full caster to boot. Substitute power and Dominant Ideal let you action abuse, so you can reposition with teleports between head shotting and drinking tea.

[Heliomance]

So does the entire some of it situational get multiplied? Just to be sure here is what they are.

Composite adds +4
Weapon enhancement +4
Ranged Weapon Mastery +2
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater Bracers of Archery +1 This comprises the normal damage output.
Hunting enhancement on favored enemies +4 This starts the situational.
Improved Favored Enemy +3
Enemy Spirit Pouch +2 for 1 Favored Enemy keyed off of
Favored Enemy +2-8 Based on the 3 above Favored Enemy deals an extra +11-17 damage.
Cragtop Archer's Strike From Above +2 if above target
Plunging Shot +1d6 if 30ft above target

So how much of that gets multiplied when critting? On top of that have the Force enhancement from MIC so don't have to worry about damage reduction as all of that is dealt as force damage. Just how optimised is this?

Everything except Plunging Shot gets multiplied. And don't use the Force enhancement (does that really change it all the force damage rather than just adding a d4 or so of force?), use this bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) instead.

[Ziegander]

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Note that it says that you roll damage with modifiers multiple times and that extra dice are never multiplied. It says nothing about things like "your next attack deals 20 additional force damage." You're free to rule that such effects are multiplied on a crit, but I don't rule that way. I could have sworn there was a rules clarification to this mix-up somewhere, but I can't find it.

Note that all of your extra damage comes in the form of "+X bonus to weapon damage rolls," which technically isn't a modifier, but it's clearly supposed to be treated as such.

[JoeYounger]

Off the top of my head;

Greater manyshot + skirmish damage (it's a single attack roll... even if it's fifty arrows hitting at once.. it's still only one attack)

There's a thing that removes the range limitation on an assassin's Death Attack, and lots of items and things that pimp the DC... one shot one kill sniper?

Hank's Force Bow is da bomb

If you're relying on a single shot for base weapon damage + str, at level 15, then you're going to be really bored in a lot of combat rounds as you sit there plinking while other people do real stuff

Greater Manyshot has seperate attack rolls for each arrow, and they can even target different creatures.

[TurtleKing]

So could deal 3d10+1d6+96 on a crit. Nice.

As for the Ardent no suprise there I had mentioned the Psychic Warrior that could manufest dissolving weapon so yea I know what you mean. Depend on a few factors may not shoot as often due to psionic focus yet hits harder.

[Rejakor]

Well, just go for regular manyshot, then.

I keep thinking 'money shot' when I type/see manyshot.


My favourite use for distant shot is on a hulking hurler with a string bag full of shrunk rocks and a magic mouth spell. Site him on a moon and use him for area saturation.

EDIT: There are ways to get around psifocus for an ardent. Check out Dominant Ideal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). What with that and the 'create your own mantle' rules, you can basically go to town. Or break the laws of time and space. Whichever you prefer.

[Heliomance]

Multiplying Damage


Note that it says that you roll damage with modifiers multiple times and that extra dice are never multiplied. It says nothing about things like "your next attack deals 20 additional force damage."

That's... one of the modifiers :smallconfused:
Your damage is modified by adding 20 force damage. I'm not seeing any other way to read that.

[JaronK]

Best spotting trick is a one level dip in Binder + Improved Binding, and go with Malphas. Now your bird spots for you.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

Everything except Plunging Shot gets multiplied. And don't use the Force enhancement (does that really change it all the force damage rather than just adding a d4 or so of force?), use this bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) instead.

Force makes your projectiles Force (ignore DR, hit incorporeals and all the good stuff) for +2 cost.


So does the entire some of it situational get multiplied? Just to be sure here is what they are.

Composite adds +4
Weapon enhancement +4
Ranged Weapon Mastery +2
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater Bracers of Archery +1 This comprises the normal damage output.
Hunting enhancement on favored enemies +4 This starts the situational.
Improved Favored Enemy +3
Enemy Spirit Pouch +2 for 1 Favored Enemy keyed off of
Favored Enemy +2-8 Based on the 3 above Favored Enemy deals an extra +11-17 damage.
Cragtop Archer's Strike From Above +2 if above target
Plunging Shot +1d6 if 30ft above target

So how much of that gets multiplied when critting? On top of that have the Force enhancement from MIC so don't have to worry about damage reduction as all of that is dealt as force damage. Just how optimised is this?

Composite can go over +4. Just saying. It's uncapped.

[TroubleBrewing]

Best spotting trick is a one level dip in Binder + Improved Binding, and go with Malphas. Now your bird spots for you.

Were you present for the thread.... I wanna say about a year ago that used a Cragtop Archer build as the BBEG for an adventure? The guy was shooting arrows off of a mountain and picking off random townsfolk. The binder dip wouldn't be a bad idea for this BBEG: it would give the players some clue as to how the arrows are landing with such stunning accuracy.

[Flickerdart]

Multiplying Damage


Note that it says that you roll damage with modifiers multiple times and that extra dice are never multiplied. It says nothing about things like "your next attack deals 20 additional force damage." You're free to rule that such effects are multiplied on a crit, but I don't rule that way. I could have sworn there was a rules clarification to this mix-up somewhere, but I can't find it.

Note that all of your extra damage comes in the form of "+X bonus to weapon damage rolls," which technically isn't a modifier, but it's clearly supposed to be treated as such.
Like Heliomance says, "+20 force damage" is a modifier. The text does not state, imply or even allude to only multiplying a weapon's enhancement bonus (which is not even termed a modifier by name). The only thing you do not multiply is extra dice, but flat figures are fare game.

[Dragonsoul]

This is only slightly related to the conversation, but my favorite combination of feats, which I've wanted to put into a real character forever..

Take Distant Shot, and Fling Enemy, from Races of Stone.

Fling Enemy, predictably, lets you fling an enemy a certain number of range increments, which Distant Shot removes the restrictions on.

"So, I can throw him at anything within line of sight, right?"

"Yeah...."

"I throw him at the sun to the mooooooooon."

FTFY:smallwink:

[DoctorGlock]

Anyone know if multiple casting of dissolving weapon stack? They are not bonuses or boosts so the same source rules would not apply. Damage always stacks, so couldn't you end up with the equivalent of 50 explosive runes bombs and one shot anything not acid immune?

Also, with magic mantle could you take energy substitution for dissolving weapon?

[Ziegander]

That's... one of the modifiers :smallconfused:
Your damage is modified by adding 20 force damage. I'm not seeing any other way to read that.


Like Heliomance says, "+20 force damage" is a modifier. The text does not state, imply or even allude to only multiplying a weapon's enhancement bonus (which is not even termed a modifier by name). The only thing you do not multiply is extra dice, but flat figures are fare game.

No, these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifierTypes) are modifiers. They are not always referred to as modifiers, however, and the rules for applying and multiplying them are fuzzy (like many of the rules). Modifiers can be bonuses or penalties, so if an effect refers to a "bonus to weapon damage rolls" you can infer that they meant for that to be treated as a modifier. An enhancement bonus, for example, is obviously a modifier, it's listed in the basic modifier types.

Flat figures like, "on the first round of combat your attacks deal 10 additional damage" are not modifiers OR bonuses, and the rules don't really talk about how you are supposed to handle them. Tome of Battle, for example, for maneuvers only of course, says that any flat figure added to an attack because of a maneuver is not multiplied on a critical hit. That's the only example I can think of off-hand that makes any mention of how to deal with flat figures of "extra" or "additional" damage.

[Heliomance]

Your ToB example is a prime example of Specific Trumps General. In general, flat damage is multiplied. In specific, flat damage from manoeuvres is not.

[Ziegander]

In general, flat damage is multiplied.

Find me a rule that agrees. The SRD entry for multiplying damage says that modifiers are multiplied, but makes no mention whatsoever to flat damage additions that aren't called out as bonuses.

[Heliomance]

That's not an exhaustive list you gave. Untyped is well established as a modifier type, and isn't listed. Also, I'm AFB ATM but I'm pretty certain I've seen divine bonuses and corruption bonuses before, at the very least.

[Ziegander]

That's not an exhaustive list you gave. Untyped is well established as a modifier type, and isn't listed. Also, I'm AFB ATM but I'm pretty certain I've seen divine bonuses and corruption bonuses before, at the very least.

You're right, there are other modifier types, but "if your attack hits a Zombie it deals 12 extra damage" is not any sort of bonus, be it untyped or divine or whatever. It's not written as a bonus, so it isn't one. Remember, I'm only saying that the rules don't tell you what do to with that sort of thing, and that you can rule it however you like.

[Eldariel]

Find me a rule that agrees. The SRD entry for multiplying damage says that modifiers are multiplied (which should include, say, morale penalties to damage, but probably wasn't the designers' intention), but makes no mention whatsoever to flat damage additions that aren't called out as bonuses.

Multiplying Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage):
"Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."

I don't see what's unclear about this. You roll the damage with all modifiers again. Exception is extra dice. Everything else is multiplied. So if it's not an extra die of damage, it's multiplied.


For the record, from the Basics: Modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers)
"A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty."

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to die roll. Types don't matter. Seriously, this is all basic stuff.

[Ziegander]

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to die roll. Types don't matter. Seriously, this is all basic stuff.

Yes, a modifier is a bonus or a penalty. The issue is primarily semantics, but when something is presented as "extra" or "additional" damage it is neither a bonus nor a penalty to a die roll. 10 extra damage =/= a bonus to any damage roll. It is, in fact, in addition to your damage roll.

For example:

If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

If you say that any flat figure that you add to your damage is multiplied, then when you score a critical hit with a torch you should multiply the fire damage. I obviously disagree. If the 1 point of fire damage were a modifier to the damage roll, then you'd have a die roll for bludgeoning damage being modified by fire damage. How does that even make sense? Furthermore, if all of the damage from the damage roll were prevented from, say, DR, the struck creature is still subject to the 1 point of fire damage. Because the effect is independent of the damage roll.

I'm away from my books right now, so I can't point to any other specific examples where WotC designed effects that add to damage rolls, but weren't written as bonuses, but I know they exist outside of ToB and the Torch. The thing is, a lot of times they forget that they've attached rules significance to terms and just throw out stuff like "whenever you make an attack that deals bludgeoning damage you deal 4 extra damage." Which doesn't really jive with any of their normal rules.

[Eldariel]

With Torch, the fire damage would be multiplied. It does damage like a Gauntlet plus 1 point of fire damage. The Torch damage is a modifier; it increases the damage you deal ergo it's a bonus (as per the definition in "Modifier").

Anything that's added on top of a damage die is a bonus. So says the Modifier header: "A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty."

Only a specific called out exception would not get multiplied. Otherwise, everything modifying the damage comes along except extra dice.

[Ziegander]

Anything that's added on top of a damage die is a bonus. So says the Modifier header: "A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty."

That's circular and circumstantial. The game defines a modifier as a bonus or penalty added or subtracted from a die roll. That gives modifier, bonus, and penalty all rules significance. Bonus, specifically, is defined in D&D 3.5 as a positive modifier. You're trying to use the normal English language definition of bonus to justify your logic.

To put this another way, in the typical English language definition it is appropriate to say that any additional damage over and above your damage roll is a "bonus" to your total damage dealt. In D&D 3.5, however, it would not be appropriate to say that additional damage is a "bonus to your damage roll."

EDIT: For example, let's resolve the attack of a Fighter attacking with a Longsword in two different rules significant situations:

1) The Fighter uses an ability that says, "if your attack hits you deal an additional 5 damage." His attack hits and his damage is calculated as 1d8+Str slashing damage and 5 untyped damage.

2) The Fighter is benefitting from a +4 inspire courage effect. His attack hits and his damage is calculated as 1d8+Str+4 slashing damage.

In the first situation, the additional 5 damage is not a modifier. It doesn't apply a bonus to his damage roll. It is simply additional damage. Since this is not a modifier, and by extension not a bonus to his damage roll, it should not be multiplied on a critical hit.

In the second situation, inspire courage gives him, to quote the Bard's class feature, a +4 "morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls." Obviously, this is a modifier, and as such it is multiplied on a critical hit.

[Eldariel]

That's circular and circumstantial. The game defines a modifier as a bonus or penalty added or subtracted from a die roll. That gives modifier, bonus, and penalty all rules significance. Bonus, specifically, is defined in D&D 3.5 as a positive modifier. You're trying to use the normal English language definition of bonus to justify your logic.

I'm just reading what it says. Those are English words. Modifier (as a game term) is anything that applies a bonus or a penalty to damage rolls. Bonus (as a game term) is a positive modifier and penalty (as a game term) is a negative modifier. This is the only logical reading because otherwise it would be circular.

What's not clear about that? Maybe they should've used different words or included "henceforth referred to as" or something there but who cares? That's just splitting hairs.


And seriously, where are you getting rules support for "additional damage that's not a bonus but is still applied in lieu of the attack is not multiplied"? Hell, where's the game mechanical definition for "additional damage that's not a part of the damage roll"? I don't recall any rule referring to something dealing additional damage outside damage rolls on attacks; and why would they? That makes no sense.

[Ziegander]

And seriously, where are you getting rules support for "additional damage that's not a bonus but is still applied in lieu of the attack is not multiplied"? Hell, where's the game mechanical definition for "additional damage that's not a part of the damage roll"? I don't recall any rule referring to something dealing additional damage outside damage rolls on attacks; and why would they? That makes no sense.

Honestly, I don't know what you're even trying to say here. But I'm going to try and make this as clear as I possibly can:

The phrases "bonus to damage roll" and "additional X damage" are not synonymous. The first is a modifier, as defined here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers). The second is not, it is additional damage, period. It gets added to the total damage your attack deals, but it is not a modifier to your damage roll. I'm not splitting hairs. The two are very different concepts.

[ayvango]

Let me participate in the contest: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20892469&postcount=65
No 3ed edition (including epic level handbook), no dragon magazines. Slightly lesser distance, because bow is not dragon bonecraft, and I had no fighter levels to use ranged weapon mastery. No cragtop archer. All that classes is replaced with spells that gives a good distance too. Much more damage. Gathered cheesy feats, spells and items from number of books.

[3.5DMonk]

I made a gestalt build for this sometime ago but didn't know of the deepwood sniper prestige class back then, so i planned out to level thirty as scout10, fighter 20, monk 20, kensai 10.

Now I'm thinking about doing scout20, fighter 12 (or ten if you do variant fighter with fewer weapons but gets weapon spec sooner) darkwood sniper 10, kensai10, and I'm not sure what to do with the remaining 8 (or ten) levels.

Now i should mention that I made a whole list of new weapons inspired by joerge sprave and his slingshot channel on YouTube and also when i think of snipers i think, long distance high damage, but also mobility and stealth and infiltration hence the scout and monk classes.

So any ideas for my remaining 8 or ten levels? If anyone wants a list of the weapons i made let me know and I'll post them.

[the_archduke]

I remember this from Emperor Tippy. Bird of Prey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818-Bird-of-Prey-(Tippy-s-Awesome-Flying-Sniper))

[martixy]

Holy thread necro, guys.

[Goaty14]

Make him level 21, get Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) and a Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense), and only the curvature of the planet will limit your range.

Only if you've been there.